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British Scum Kill Two French Students In Tarantino-Like Murders

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D. Spencer Hines - 04 Jul 2008 22:19 GMT
"Welcome to Labour´s Britain.  I would hope when the police find the
murderers the human rights activists will protect them.  After all the
students provoked them into this act of self defence!  No wonder Canada
wants decent Brits to emigrate.  There are not many of them left."

- Peter Glazier, Sao Paulo, Brazil
------------------------------------------------------------

French students 'were tortured for their Bank details in bungled robbery'
Last updated at 16:15pm on 04.07.08
This Is London

Police believe two French students living in Britain who were bound up and
brutally murdered may have been tortured for their bank details in a bungled
robbery.

Detectives are now following a 'strong line if inquiry' that Laurent Bonomo
and Gabriel Ferez, both 23, were killed in a robbery that escalated into a
horrific double-murder.

It is thought they could have been tortured for hours so that they would
give up PIN numbers to their bank and credit cards.

The theory has gathered pace with the discovery by detectives that two
mobile phones and two new Sony PSP games consoles had been stolen from Mr
Bonomo's flat.

Officers hope the phones will be used so that they can trace the signal and
find the handsets. If bank cards were stolen, their use could also be
traced.

Scotland Yard have issued an urgent appeal to anyone who might have been
offered the stolen phones or consoles for sale in the past few days to
contact them.

Mr Bonomo and Mr Ferez, already marked out as the most gifted of their
generation, were killed just eight weeks after arriving in Britain from
their native France.

Hailed as 'brilliant' and destined for stellar careers, they were murdered
in a frenzied, barbaric attack at Mr Bonomo's flat in New Cross, south-east
London.

They were both tied to chairs, tortured and then stabbed almost 250 times in
the head, chest and back before finally being set on fire.

A subsequent explosion - described as a 'gun crack' by neighbours - left a
pair of charred, mutilated bodies that could only be identified from DNA.

The murder of the two bio-engineering students, who had been invited to
Britain to take part in ground-breaking scientific research, has stunned
hardened detectives.

It also sent shockwaves across France where the loss of two of the country's
finest young minds was seen as proof of Britain's spiral into knife-obsessed
lawlessness.

Police now believe the students, who were found on Sunday night, may simply
have been the victims of a bungled burglary.

Six days before the murders, Mr Bonomo disturbed an intruder who stole a
laptop as he took an early morning shower.

Police are examining the possibility that a drug-addicted burglar later
returned and subjected the men to an unimaginable ordeal.

Details of the theft theory, which is the strongest lead in a case that has
baffled seasoned detectives, emerged as the full horror of the killings was
revealed.

One source said last night officers were still unsure if one or more killers
were involved. But he added: 'We expect to make an arrest sooner rather than
later.'

Mr Bonomo was stabbed 196 times, with up to 100 wounds inflicted on his back
after death.

Mr Ferez, who lived several miles away in Thornton Heath, suffered 47
separate injuries.

Detectives are trying to establish whether Mr Bonomo was already being
tortured when Mr Ferez turned up at his friend's flat.

They believe it is possible Mr Bonomo opened the door thinking his friend
was there and was met by his attacker instead before the second student
arrived later.

The theory would explain how the two fit, young men could have been
overpowered.

Investigators have also not ruled out that there could be several attackers,
because of the sheer number of injuries inflicted on both bodies.

Post-mortem examinations found they were both stabbed in the head, neck and
chest. Sources said they had been bound and gagged before they were killed.

Police believe an accelerant was poured on or near their bodies, possibly to
destroy evidence, and the flat set alight, causing a minor explosion.

Criminals are increasingly turning to arson to cover up their crimes due to
the growing use of DNA evidence - what police call the 'CSI effect'.

One detective compared the killings to a Quentin Tarantino film.

He said: 'The scale of the violence is extraordinary. This was like a scene
from a Tarantino gangster film but these men were not criminals. These were
two talented and innocent men who had no history of criminality.'

The victims are believed to have been playing computer games when they were
attacked by one or more men in Sterling Gardens, a normally quiet road in
New Cross.

There was no evidence of forced entry.

Detectives said Mr Bonomo and Mr Ferez were 'entirely innocent', with no
criminal background in France or Britain.

They added there was nothing 'immediately obvious' in their private lives
which could explain why someone would want to cause them so much suffering.

A visibly shocked Detective Chief Inspector Mick Duthie, the officer in
charge of the inquiry, said: 'The extent of the injuries are horrific. I
have never seen injuries like this throughout my career.'

Mr Duthie said police were hunting a white man seen running from the flats
shortly after the explosion. But they have not ruled out that others may
have been involved.

He added: 'I would not say this was a professional attack. I would say it
was a frenzied, horrible, horrific-attack. I imagine it would take some
considerable amount of time to inflict the nature of the injuries.'

Last night a neighbour who lived above the murder scene told of the moment
when he realised the flat below was burning.

Henry Chuks, 32, said: 'I was watching television with my wife when I heard
two or three loud bangs at about 10pm, it sounded like someone had dropped
something really heavy.

'The whole building was shaking. It sounded like a big fridge had fallen
down.'

Mr Bonomo and Mr Ferez had won three-month internships at Imperial College,
London, following glittering academic careers.

Both were graduates of colleges linked to the Ecole Polytechnique, the
state-run institution founded in 1794 which is viewed as the most
prestigious engineering college in France.

They were due to return home later this month.

Mr Bonomo - who was called 'Lolo' - was known to be alive in the early hours
of Sunday morning because he spoke to his fiancee Mary Bertez in France.

Last night the 23-year-old French literature student left an internet
tribute.

She wrote: 'My love, we were always together but unfortunately I wasn't
there that evening.

'I will never stop thinking about you for a second. I had 10 months of a
happiness I had never experienced-until then. Today you are gone. I will try
to be as good as you always wanted.

'I will give all the required information to the investigation, my dear, so
you can be avenged. I love you my darling from the depths of my heart.'

She was said to be 'devastated beyond belief'. A friend said: 'Her world has
fallen apart.'

The families of the murdered students travelled to London to identify their
sons but were too traumatised to talk. Police said they were returning home
immediately.

Anyone with information should call the incident room on 020 8721 4155 or
Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111.

The possible motives

Theft:

A burglar broke in to the bedsit six days earlier and stole a laptop. Did he
return and torture his pleading victims in a bid to obtain more valuable
items? Sources described this as a key line of the inquiry.

Drugs:

The ferocity of the murders has prompted speculation that the killer or
killers could have been on crack cocaine - which can cause paranoia and
extreme violence. Or, for whatever reason, did the men fall out with a local
drug dealer?

Mental illness:

The violence could be the work of a psychopath or person with an acute
personality disorder. Police will check on seriously mentally ill
individuals in the area.

Sex:

Although neither victim suffered sexual injuries, police cannot rule out
completely the possibility of a sexual motive. Did the killer or killers get
a sadistic pleasure from inflicting unimaginable pain? Was there a bizarre
homosexual motive?

Revenge:

Strong feelings of revenge can sometimes prompt horrific acts of violence.
But police see no obvious reason why the men would attract such hostile
feelings.

Mistaken identity :

Were the men mistaken for other individuals who were the intended targets?

<http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23506646-details/French+students+tort
ured+and+stabbed+250+times+in+Tarantino-style+raid+on+London+home/article.do
>
Jack Linthicum - 04 Jul 2008 22:36 GMT
> "Welcome to Labour´s Britain.  I would hope when the police find the
> murderers the human rights activists will protect them.  After all the
[quoted text clipped - 213 lines]
>
> <http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23506646-details/French+st...>

Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition
Nebulous - 04 Jul 2008 23:01 GMT
"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cb442296-889f-

28 November 1494
Judicial proceedings: acts of the lords auditors of causes and complaints
[1494/11/7]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

28 November, all the lords auditors sat except [John Lyon], lord Glamis

The lords auditors of causes and complaints decree and deliver that James
Kennedy of the Row of Stinchar, for all that they have so far seen, shall
content and pay James Abercrombie, burgess of Stirling, assignee of the late
Sir David Robertson, provost of Monybole,? the sum of 50 merks and 11s usual
money of Scotland yearly for the period of 5 years, and 40 bolls of meal
yearly for the said 5 years, owed by the said James Kennedy to the said late
Sir David and now to the said James Abercrombie as assignee of the said late
Sir David, for certain lands which he had in lease from the said provost,
just as the said James Kennedy was bound by his obligation under his seal
and signature, and the said instrument of assignation made to the said James
Abercrombie for that shown and produced before the lords, and ordain that
letters be written to distrenzie the said James Kennedy of his lands and
goods for that, and he was summoned to this action, often called and did not
compear.

[1494/11/8]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

The lords auditors sat in the afternoon except [John Lyon], lord Glamis

The lords auditors decree and deliver that for all that they have seen so
far Christian Livingston, the spouse of the late William Scott, does wrong
in the detention and withholding from James Livingston of Mannerston of the
mails and duties of the fourth part of the lands and barony of Fordell, with
exception of the seventh part, with its pertinents, lying within the
sheriffdom of Fife, and [they] therefore ordain her to content and pay the
said James the mails and duties of the said lands insofar as he can
sufficiently prove [they are] owed to him by her for past terms and for the
three years contained in the summons, for the production of which proof the
lords auditors appoint 4 December next, with continuation of days, for the
said James and ordain him to have letters to summon his witnesses to prove
the value and the quantity of the said mails and for which terms [they had
been] collected and intromitted with by the said Christian, and that she [is
to] be warned to hear the witnesses sworn. And [the lords] also decree and
deliver that the said Christian has forfeited her warrant which she claimed
to have in the said matter because she failed to produce her warrant [at]
the term appointed for her, she being often called for that. And [the lords]
also decree and deliver that for all that they have so far seen the said
Christian shall remain with the tack of the said lands, she paying 10 merks
yearly for them according to the form of the arrangement made for that in
the presence of the lords, as was proven by the decreet from the lords of
council given for that, which mails pertain to the said James in inheritance
as was proven by his instrument of sasine made for that, shown and produced
before the lords.

[1494/11/9]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

In the presence of the lords of council John of Crawford of the Keirhill
[...]?
Boedicia@isp.com - 05 Jul 2008 00:30 GMT
> > "Welcome to Labour´s Britain.  I would hope when the police find the
> > murderers the human rights activists will protect them.  After all the
[quoted text clipped - 215 lines]
>
> Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition-

There is never a Tony Martin around when you need them.
Just imagine  if one of these men had been armed. They could
have defended themselves against what can only be called
a vicious, unprovoked attack by,  IMO, is more than one person.
We will have to wait and see if they were a gang  of feral gypos,
as in the Tony Martin case, a gang of drug crazed darkies,
a gang of  Paki whitemen haters or  something else.
Whoever, there is no doubt that the usual  morons will
appear and try to find an excuse why people should not be allowed to
defend themselevs if attacked in the hopes that the filth will quietly
go away once they have cleaned the victim out.

"They were giving us the evil eye"
Idiotic jury in Tony Martin case.

Hide quoted text -

> - Show quoted text -
Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:39 GMT
<Boedicia@isp.com> wrote in message news:9c4f0f6f-c468-4fb7-b5f4-

ederunt
Third day of parliament, 13 March 1503 [1504]

The lord king was present

 a.. Present on the said day:
 b..
   a.. Bishops
   b.. [Robert Blackadder], archbishop of Glasgow
   c.. [George Brown, bishop of] Dunkeld
   d.. [William Elphinstone, bishop of] Aberdeen
   e.. [Andrew Forman, bishop of] Moray
   f.. [John Fraser, bishop of] Ross
   g.. [George Vaus, bishop of] Galloway
   h.. [Andrew Stewart, bishop of] Caithness
   i.. [David Hamilton, bishop of] Argyll
 a.. Abbots
 b.. [John Hepburn], prior of St Andrews
 c.. [George Crichton], abbot of Holyrood
 d.. [James Beaton, abbot of] Dunfermline
 e.. Melrose?
 f.. [George Hepburn, abbot of] Arbroath?
 g.. [David Arnott, abbot of] Cambuskenneth
 h.. [Robert Shaw, abbot of] Paisley
 i.. [John Shanwell, abbot of] Coupar [Angus]
 j.. [John Turnbull, abbot of] Newbattle
 k.. [Henry Orme, abbot of] Lindores
 l.. [William Bunche, abbot of] Kilwinning
 m.. [Walter Bunch, abbot of] Balmerino
 a.. Earls
 b.. [Alexander Gordon, earl of] Huntly
 c.. [Archibald Campbell, earl of] Argyll
 d.. [Alexander Lindsay, earl of] Crawford
 e.. [John Douglas, earl of] Morton
 f.. [Patrick Hepburn, earl of] Bothwell
 g.. [William Keith, earl] Marischal
 h.. [Matthew Stewart, earl of] Lennox
 i.. [James Hamilton, earl of] Arran
 a.. The lord barons?
 b.. [Alexander Home, lord] Home
 c.. [Andrew Gray, lord] Gray
 d.. [Hugh Montgomery, lord] Montgomery
 e.. [John Oliphant, lord] Oliphant
 f.. [Andrew Stewart, lord] Avondale
 g.. [John] Ross of Hawkhead
 h.. [William Borthwick, lord] Borthwick
 i.. [John Colquhoun, lord] Luss
 j.. [John Drummond, lord] Drummond
 k.. [William Knollis, lord] St John
 l.. Sir John Ram[...]
 m.. Sir David Kennedy
 n.. [Alexander Home], master of Home
 o.. [William Hay], master of Erroll
 p.. [Logan of] Restalrig
 q.. [Scott of] Balwearie
 r.. [Douglas of] Lochleven
 s.. Colville
 t.. Sir John Somerville
 u.. Langton
 v.. Scraling?
 w.. Craigmillar
 x.. Cros[...]
 y.. Haw[...]
William Black - 05 Jul 2008 08:46 GMT
There is never a Tony Martin around when you need them.
Just imagine  if one of these men had been armed. They could
have defended themselves against what can only be called
a vicious, unprovoked attack by,  IMO, is more than one person.
We will have to wait and see if they were a gang  of feral gypos,
as in the Tony Martin case, a gang of drug crazed darkies,
a gang of  Paki whitemen haters or  something else.
Whoever, there is no doubt that the usual  morons will
appear and try to find an excuse why people should not be allowed to
defend themselevs if attacked in the hopes that the filth will quietly
go away once they have cleaned the victim out.

--------------

Oh well.

I suppose we should be grateful she isn't claiming it was a Jewish ritual
murder.

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:59 GMT
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message news:g4n8t2

Additional Sources
19 March 1504
Procedure: memoranda
[A1504/3/81]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

19 March 1503 [1504]

Memorandum, regarding the Strome, that [Alexander Gordon], lord of Huntly
pass and gain control of the same as shall be thought expedient by the
king's highness.

[A1504/3/82]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Memorandum, secondly to write to [John] MacIan [of Ardnamurchan],? [John]
MacLean of Lochbuie,? Grete? [Alexander] MacLeod [of Dunvegan and Harris],?
Ranald, son of Allan [MacDonald, captain of Clanranald],? [Gilleonan or
Gallion?] MacNeill of Barra,? [Neil?] MacKinnon [of Mishnish and
Strathordell],? [Dunslaf] MacQuarrie [of Ulva]? and Torquil MacLeod [of
Lewis],? in this form: that for as much as our sovereign lord in this
present parliament has forfeited these people, etc., that is to say Lauchlan
MacLean of Duart? and Ewan, son of Allan [Cameron of Lochiel],? for usurping
our sovereign lord's authority and other treasonous crimes, for this reason
they are to attack and pursue the said persons and their accomplices, our
sovereign lord's rebels, and capture and bring in the same and harry,
destroy and burn their lands. And if they arrest and capture and bring to
our sovereign lord any of the chiefs, they shall get half of all their
lands. And if they capture and bring in any other chiefs and other men [who
are] their accomplices, the captors shall be rewarded for that to the [same]
value that the person who is captured has in land or goods. And whoever
assists them or does not do their best for their capture, bringing in and
destruction shall be known as art and part allies with them and be accused
and pursued for treason for their assistance and supporting [of them] by
that and [shall be] forfeited just like them and punished by our sovereign
lord when he comes to those parts with them and so on. And the said persons
must immediately let our sovereign lord know what way they think is the most
expedient for destroying the said rebels.

[A1504/3/83]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, these proclamations [are to be] made in Latin and letters to the
aforesaid effect sent to all persons both [in] the Isles and ferme-land in
neighbouring areas.

[A1504/3/84]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Memorandum, [Alexander Gordon], earl of Huntly takes it on hand to send
letters to Ranald, son of Allan [MacDonald, captain of Clanranald], and
[Neil?] MacKinnon [of Mishnish and Strathordell].

[A1504/3/85]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

[Archibald Campbell], earl of Argyll is to take on [John] MacIan [of
Ardnamurchan's] and [John] MacLean of Lochbuie's letters, and [John Fraser],
bishop of Ross is to take on [Alexander] MacLeod [of Dunvegan and Harris's]
letters.

[A1504/3/86]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, regarding the girth, that [Alexander Stewart], lord of Ross and the
churchmen provide for that as they think to be done.

[A1504/3/87]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Memorandum, regarding the building of Inverlochy and the discussion of it
with [Alexander Gordon], earl of Huntly.

[A1504/3/88]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Memorandum, on the building of Dunaverty or Loch Kilkerran? at the king's
pleasure, and that our sovereign lord discuss with [Archibald Campbell],
earl of Argyll both concerning the building and the keeping of the masons.

[A1504/3/89]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Memorandum, to warn all the parties of realm where our sovereign lord thinks
[it] expedient to make them ready with their ships and gear when they are
charged to travel to the Isles by public proclamation.

[A1504/3/90]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Memorandum, that our sovereign lord collect all his artillery, wherever it
[may] be in his realm, and call the former masters of it to answer for it.

[A1504/3/91]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Memorandum, that the bond of the middle border be made like the bond of the
southern border, and that the lords and freeholders of the same that are in
this town sign the same.

[A1504/3/92]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Memorandum, that the session [is to] sit still until Palm Sunday [31 March]
for the shires of Fife, Lothian and Berwick, and Renfrew that it was last
left at, and thereafter to be continued until the Tuesday after Trinity
Sunday [2 June], and the exchequer [is to] begin after Midsummer.

[A1504/3/93]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

These are the lords who shall sit now on the session: that is to say,
[William Elphinstone, bishop of] Aberdeen, [Andrew Forman, bishop of] Moray,
[John Fraser, bishop of] Ross, [David Hamilton, bishop of] Argyll, [John
Hepburn], prior of St Andrews, [James Beaton], postulate of Dunfermline,
[George Crichton], abbot of Holyrood, [David Arnott, abbot of]
Cambuskenneth, [Matthew Stewart], lord of Lennox, [Hugh Montgomery], lord
Montgomery, [John Ross], lord Ross [of Hawkhead], [John Drummond], lord
Drummond, Sir John Ogilvy, Sir William, Sir John Ramsay, Master William
Wawane, Sir John Stirling, Master R[ichard] Lawson, the clerk of the
pannis,? Master James Henderson.
Boedicia@isp.com - 07 Jul 2008 06:10 GMT
On Jul 5, 12:46 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
> <Boedi...@isp.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> I suppose we should be grateful she isn't claiming it was a Jewish ritual
> murder.

 Those take place in towns like Lincoln  (Little St. Hugh).  Gives
one the shivers doesn't it.

> --
> William Black

snip one of the daftest sigs on the net.  Only an
idiot would put such inane drivel at the end of his one line rubbish.
What a waste of space.

> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.

I believe it.  That's what happens when one is not
in full command of their senses.
John Briggs - 07 Jul 2008 11:57 GMT
> On Jul 5, 12:46 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>   Those take place in towns like Lincoln  (Little St. Hugh).  Gives
> one the shivers doesn't it.

Here we have - inadvertently - a medieval topic! Do you have anything to say
about "Little St Hugh"?  Or about the story told by Richard of Devizes
[f.39r-f.40r]? (Richard was the first to use 'holocaust' in its modern
sense.)
Signature

John Briggs

Boedicia@isp.com - 10 Jul 2008 00:16 GMT
> Boedi...@isp.com wrote:
> > On Jul 5, 12:46 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Here we have - inadvertently - a medieval topic! Do you have anything to say
> about "Little St Hugh"?

  Of course. Whenever I am in Lincoln I go to Lincoln Cathedral
 and pray for his soul before his resting place.  If you ever go
there, you will  notice a handwritten note taped to the inside of
the glass that surrounds his memorial.  Somone (guess who")
apparently persuaded the powers that be, to inform those of us who
visit his last resting place that it was "racism"  to "blame
the jews for his death".   In these daft P.C. days, there is no
event in history that can't be explained away because of
"racism".  Hugh was found in a well on jew owned property
during Passover.  There wasn't a mark on his body but it
was said that much of his blood had been drained.  Whether that was
true or not we have no way of knowing since it was
100's of years ago.  The jew blamed "bllod libel" on the events
that followed i.e. the hanging of several jews.

 Or about the story told by Richard of Devizes
> [f.39r-f.40r]? (Richard was the first to use 'holocaust' in its modern sense.)

I refer you to Lady Olga Maitland who said -

"I am sick and tired of hearing about the holocaust".

And so say all of us.

> --
> John Briggs- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
John Briggs - 10 Jul 2008 00:40 GMT
>> Boedi...@isp.com wrote:
>>> On Jul 5, 12:46 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> true or not we have no way of knowing since it was
> 100's of years ago.

That is almost complete nonsense. Children were murdered then at almost the
same rate as nowadays - and by much the same people.
Signature

John Briggs

Raymond O'Hara - 07 Jul 2008 18:13 GMT
> William Black

snip one of the daftest sigs on the net.  Only an
idiot would put such inane drivel at the end of his one line rubbish.
What a waste of space.

> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.

I believe it.  That's what happens when one is not
in full command of their senses.

=====================================================================

i gather you've never seen 'blade runner'
the sig is great parody.
its the only worthwhile part of blackguard's posts
John Kane - 07 Jul 2008 19:39 GMT
On Jul 4, 7:30 pm, "Boedi...@isp.com" <Boedi...@isp.com> wrote:

> > > "Welcome to Labour´s Britain.  I would hope when the police find the
> > > murderers the human rights activists will protect them.  After all the
[quoted text clipped - 217 lines]
>
> There is never a Tony Martin around when you need them.

This must mean that you really don't know anything about the Tony
Martin case.

The man was a seriously disturbed person who seems to have murdered a
couple of break and enter scum when in no real danger himself.  And of
course he was stupid enough to tell all sorts of witnesses including
local police that he was going to do it.
Fred J. McCall - 08 Jul 2008 04:28 GMT
:The man was a seriously disturbed person ...

Then those break in artists shouldn't have disturbed him.

:... who seems to have murdered a
:couple of break and enter scum when in no real danger himself.

This seems a silly statement.  How can you call it murder when all the
'victims' had to do was NOT BREAK IN to avoid getting hurt.

:And of
:course he was stupid enough to tell all sorts of witnesses including
:local police that he was going to do it.

Well, let me make it clear to you.  I fully intend to do my very best
to kill anyone who breaks into or forces their way into my home.  If
they do that, I have no choice but to assume that they intend to do me
grievous bodily harm and will act accordingly.

Fortunately, I live in a civilized country where victims of crime are
allowed to protect themselves and criminals aren't given preferential
protections from the risks of their chosen behaviours.  That means
that the police and the courts will make the same assumption I do.

If you don't want to get dead, don't break into other peoples' homes.

Signature

"Oooo, scary!  Y'know, there are a lot scarier things
in the world than you ... and I'm one of them."

                         -- Buffy the vampire

Boedicia@isp.com - 10 Jul 2008 00:33 GMT
> On Jul 4, 7:30 pm, "Boedi...@isp.com" <Boedi...@isp.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 222 lines]
> This must mean that you really don't know anything about the Tony
> Martin case.

 I know everything there is to know about it.

> The man was a seriously disturbed person who seems to have murdered a
> couple of break and enter scum when in no real danger himself.  And of
> course he was stupid enough to tell all sorts of witnesses including
> local police that he was going to do it.

  Thank God there still people in England who are not afraid to
defend themselves.  Why
wait for them to return, as they no doubt would have done.   As I
said, one dead Gypo will
not be missed.

   When I was a child in Coventry, it was not uncommon to read in the
local and national
 newspapers about some little old lady who chased a purse snatcher
and in many cases,
actually catching up with him and  hitting him with her umbrella, or
whatever she had available.
 She was always called a "heroine".  Now we are told not to resist
and those who do are
liable to arrest if the scum are harmed in some way. If a thief should
hurt hmself when falling
through a hole in the roof or something, he sues the homeowner!!
The world is upside down
thanks to the idiots who are terrified of calling a spade a spade.  I
have nothing but contempt
for those who refuse to defend themselves or their families against,
what can only be called,
 an attack on their culture and lives.  Fight  back and don't worry
about the lives of those
 who attack you,  they forfeited their rights when they violated
yours.

"They gave us the evil eye".
Silly jury in the Tony Martin case refrring to the family of the dead
Gypo..
Andrew Swallow - 10 Jul 2008 03:21 GMT
[snip]

> "They gave us the evil eye".
>  Silly jury in the Tony Martin case refrring to the family of the dead
> Gypo..

Actions like that tell you who was guilty.  If he is locked away he
cannot attack you.

Andrew Swallow
Zombywoof - 05 Jul 2008 14:10 GMT
>> Were the men mistaken for other individuals who were the intended targets?
>>
>> <http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23506646-details/French+st...>
>
>Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition

And we all know nobody ever expects that.
Signature

"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks."

William Black - 04 Jul 2008 22:52 GMT
> "Welcome to Labour´s Britain.  I would hope when the police find the
> murderers the human rights activists will protect them.  After all the
> students provoked them into this act of self defence!  No wonder Canada
> wants decent Brits to emigrate.  There are not many of them left."
>
> - Peter Glazier, Sao Paulo, Brazil

And how many street kids have the Brazilian police shot today I wonder...

Signature

William Black

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

Nebulous - 04 Jul 2008 23:01 GMT
"William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g4m636$948

29 November 1494
Judicial proceedings: acts of the lords auditors of causes and complaints
[1494/11/10]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

29 November, all the lords auditors sat except [Robert Lyle], lord Lyle and
[John Lyon, lord] Glamis

The lords auditors decree and deliver that George Herries of Terraughtie
shall content and pay Patrick [Hepburn], earl of Bothwell the sum of 50
merks usual money of Scotland of the rest of a greater sum owed to the said
earl for a part of the fruits and duties of the provosts of Lincluden, as
was admitted by the said George Herries in the presence of the lords, and
ordain that letters be written to distrenzie the said George of his lands
and goods for that.

[1494/11/11]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

The lords auditors decree and deliver that John of Shaw of the Haly, as heir
of his late grandfather John of Shaw of the Haly, and Quentin Muir of the
Aird, the son and heir of the late Quentin Muir of the Aird, shall content
and pay Archibald Boyd, brother german of the late Robert Boyd, the sum of
£100 usual money of Scotland to the full amount owed him for past terms for
the contract of marriage completed between the said Archibald and Christian
Muir according to the form of the letters obligatories made by the said late
John and Quentin for them and their heirs to the said Archibald for that,
shown and produced before the lords, and ordain that letters be written to
distrenzie them of their lands and goods for that, subtracting from them the
sum of £40 in the said payment admitted [to have been paid] to the said
Archibald, and the said John and Quentin were summoned to this action, often
called and did not compear.

[1494/11/12]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

The lords auditors decree and deliver that Robert Berton, dwelling in Leith,
does wrong in harassing, worrying and disturbing Andrew Mowbray, burgess of
Edinburgh, in the use, enjoyment and raising of 5 merks of annual rent
yearly owed to him from the said Robert Berton's land and tenement lying in
Leith, and [they] therefore ordain the said Robert Berton to desist and
cease from that in the future, to be used, enjoyed and raised by the said
Andrew yearly according to the form of the charter and sasine made to him
for that, shown and produced before the lords. And [the lords] also decree
and deliver that the said Robert shall content and pay the said Andrew the
sum of 5 merks from the said annual for the terms of last Martinmas [11
November] and Whitsunday [18 May] past before this last term of Martinmas,
and ordain that letters be written to put this decreet into execution. And
[the lords] appoint 7 December next, with continuation of days, for Islay
herald and the said Andrew Mowbray to prove sufficiently the deforcement
contained in the summons and his costs and injuries, and ordain them to have
letters to summon their witnesses and warn the party to hear them sworn, and
[they] continue that part of the summons in the meantime without prejudice
of party. And [the lords] also declare that the said Robert has forfeited
his warrant in the said matter because he has failed to produce his said
warrant at the term appointed for him.

[1494/11/13]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

The lords auditors decree and deliver that John Wallace of Glentig shall
content and pay James Muir of Monyhagain the sum of 40 merks usual money of
Scotland owed to him by the said John Wallace for certain contracts
contained in his obligation made to the said James for that, shown and
produced before the lords, and ordain that letters be written to distrenzie
the said John Wallace of his lands and goods for that, reserving to him his
action against any persons that should relieve him of the said sum because
they were not all properly summoned at this time.

[1494/11/14]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

The lords auditors decree and deliver that Hutcheon Wallace of Smithston
shall free, relieve and pay John Wallace of Glentig the third part of the
sum of 40 merks usual money of Scotland, just as he was bound [to do] by his
obligation with the late William Wallace of Craigie, knight, and Adam
Wallace of Craigie, under his and their seals, shown and produced before the
lords, and ordain that letters be written to distrenzie the said Hutcheon of
his lands and goods for the third of the said 40 merks to relieve him of
that at the hands of James Muir of Monyhagain, and the said John Wallace has
promised to treat his wife and do to her as is fitting by the law of the
holy church, and the said Hutcheon was present at this action.

[1494/11/15]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

The lords auditors decree and decree? that Arthur Forbes of Rires shall
content and pay Elaine Fleming the sum of £27 12s usual money of Scotland
owed by him to the said Elaine for rough hard hides, just as he was bound
[to do] by his obligation under his seal, shown and produced before the
lords, because the said Arthur took [it upon himself] to prove the said sum
was previously paid and failed in his proof at the term appointed to him,
and he was summoned to this action, often called and did not compear, and
ordain that letters be written to distrenzie the said Arthur of his lands
and goods for that.

[1494/11/16]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

William Murray compeared before the lords auditors and protested that
because Oliver Sinclair caused him to be summoned to his suit for certain
causes etc. and would not compear to pursue him etc, that therefore etc.
Boedicia@isp.com - 07 Jul 2008 06:14 GMT
> "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
> because Oliver Sinclair caused him to be summoned to his suit for certain
> causes etc. and would not compear to pursue him etc, that therefore etc.

Have you ever thought of asking for help?  It
won't cost you anything which, you, being a *cot
will appreciate.  They can do wonders nowadays
for those with mental problems like yours. A
few weeks in a nice padded cell with strong bars
will do you the world of good.
Zombywoof - 05 Jul 2008 14:24 GMT
>> "Welcome to Labour´s Britain.  I would hope when the police find the
>> murderers the human rights activists will protect them.  After all the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>And how many street kids have the Brazilian police shot today I wonder...

And exactly why do you wonder?  Did you give pause to wonder why they
may have degenerated into shooting them?  They aren't cute little
street urchins from Oliver Twist.

One of the most interesting, and so far overlooked/under commented on
aspects of the article was the statement: "Britain's spiral into
knife-obsessed lawlessness".  

Why isn't it just plain old  lawlessness?  Why the emphasis on the
fact that a "Knife" was used?  Is it simply the fact that once handgun
possession was made hard enough that the criminals turned to the next
best thing, Knives.  Now Britain is outlawing/banning Knives as well,
but yet the violence continues as well as the magnitude of the
brutality. What is next on the hit-parade Cricket Bats, Chair Legs, or
Fire Pokers?

All-in-all the only thing that the article shows is how given a will,
there will always be a way to commit violence against another.  The
only & best choice is to give law-abiding people not only the "Right",
but the means to protect themselves.
Signature

"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks."

Nebulous - 04 Jul 2008 23:00 GMT
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:Kvwbk.33

27 November 1494
[1494/11/1]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Procedure: preamble
In the name of God amen, the parliament of the most excellent and most
powerful prince our lord, the most dear lord James IV, by the grace of God
most illustrious king of Scots, held and begun at Edinburgh in the tolbooth
of the same on 27 November 1494 by the lords commissioners having sufficient
commission for this, on which day the suits being called [and] the court
fenced, the absentees were made public in the rolls of suits.

[1494/11/2]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Committee members: lords auditors of causes and complaints
 a.. Lords elected to the causes
 b..
   a.. For the clergy
   b.. [George Brown], bishop of Dunkeld
   c.. [Robert Ker], abbot of Kelso
   d.. [James Abercrombie], abbot of Scone
   e.. [Deleted text]?
   f.. Official of Lothian, Master William Wawane
 a.. For the barons
 b.. [John Lyon], lord Glamis
 c.. [Robert Lyle], lord Lyle
 d.. [William Knollis], lord St John
 e.. John Ogilvy
 a.. For the commissioners
 b.. Henry Preston
 c.. Matthew Wallace
 d.. Robert Mercer
The six persons present gathered together, with [John Fraser], clerk
register, etc., seven.

Judicial proceedings: acts of the lords auditors of causes and complaints
[1494/11/3]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

All the lords auditors sat except [Robert Ker], abbot of Kelso, [John Lyon],
lord Glamis, [Robert Lyle, lord] Lyle and Robert Mercer

In the presence of the lords auditors John Wan, John of Auchinross, bailie
of Dumbarton, and Robert Noble, younger, have drawn themselves, their lands
and goods caution and surety that the council and community of Dumbarton
will support, abide by and submit to what they do in their name.

[1494/11/4]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

In the presence of the lords auditors of causes and complaints it is
appointed, agreed and finally concluded and settled between Walter Watson,
burgess of Dumbarton, for himself and as procurator for Euphamy Logan, his
spouse, and his son, on the one part, and John Wan, John of Auchinross,
bailie of Dumbarton, and Robert Noble, younger, for themselves and as
procurators for the council and community of the burgh of Dumbarton, and as
they who have found caution for the said council and community, on the other
part, in the manner and form that follows below, that is to say, both the
said parties are bound and obliged, touching the holy Gospels, to support,
abide by and submit to the sentence, deliverance and decreet of these
undernoted persons or the majority of them, that is to say Andrew Fleming,
George Fallisdale, George Fleming, John Lauchtane, William Finnie, Morris
Gardener and James Gardener, judges arbitrators, arbiters and amiable
compositors, equally chosen by both the said parties, regarding all actions,
disagreements and disputes moved by either of the said parties against the
others at any time in the past until the day this agreement was made
regarding the lands of Howatschaw called Samellis lands, and the corn that
grew on the same, and the tearing down of 12 ruids of the dyke of the said
Samellis lands, and the tearing down of the pinfold of Akinbar, and
therefore the lords ordain that letters be written to charge the said judges
arbiters to take the said matter upon themselves and be sworn to it before
the bailies of Dumbarton, and to convene in the parish church of Dumbarton
between now and the next feast of the nativity of our Lord called Yule [25
December], and to deliver for that between that time and the purification of
our Lady called Candlemas [2 February] next, under the charge that may
follow after it, and as shall be delivered and decreed by the said judges or
the majority of them, both the said parties shall stand content and never go
against it under the pain of perjury and infamy and under the pain of £100
to be raised against the party breaker according to the form of the decreets
and deliverance previously given for that; and if it happens that any of the
said judges to fail through death, it shall be lawful for the rest of the
said judges to choose others in their places, with the consent of party.

[1494/11/5]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

The lords auditors decree and deliver that Robert Noble of the Ferme and
John of Colquhoun of Camstraddan shall restore, return to and pay Walter
Watson and Euphamy Logan, his spouse, three bolls of oats, with the fodder,
priced 3s per boll, spulzied and taken by them from an acre of land of the
Spittale Land for this last year past, as was sufficiently proven before the
lords, and ordain that letters be written to distrenzie the said Robert and
John of their lands and goods for that, and they were present at this action
through their procurators, and to distrenzie them for 15s for the said
Walter's costs of his letters and 5s for his expenses.

[1494/11/6]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

In the presence of the lords auditors Walter Watson agreed, for himself, his
wife and son, to hand over the tack of the lands of Spittale Land to the
town of Dumbarton when they would obtain a discharge from the leper man from
whom he had the said tack.
Tiglath - 05 Jul 2008 03:50 GMT
It's enough to make one wish for the availability of guns.   The poor
souls may have been shot instead and spared the horror of cold steel
slicing skin, muscle, and nerve, over and over.
Peter Jason - 05 Jul 2008 05:55 GMT
> It's enough to make one wish for the
> availability of guns.   The poor
> souls may have been shot instead and spared
> the horror of cold steel
> slicing skin, muscle, and nerve, over and
> over.

Knife attacks are increasing here at the
nightclub circuit.   On one TV news show one
victim with 3 knife wounds in the back (at
kidney level), all shown in vivid
technicolour and the poor fellow was in
considerable agony.  At one Asian nightclub a
few years ago swords were smuggled in down
trouser legs for a subsequent brawl  where
some participants were chased into the river
where they drowned.  In my time one went to
nightclubs to get laid; these days it's to
get dead drunk and brawl.
D. Spencer Hines - 05 Jul 2008 07:15 GMT
Somewhat Shocking...

But not overly.

Aussies are well-known as brawlers.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Britannicus Traductus Sum
----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Knife attacks are increasing here at the nightclub circuit.   On one TV
> news show one victim with 3 knife wounds in the back (at kidney level),
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> chased into the river where they drowned.  In my time one went to
> nightclubs to get laid; these days it's to get dead drunk and brawl.
Peter Jason - 05 Jul 2008 07:49 GMT
It seems worse these days.  Probably due to
higher population density.  CCTV brings it to
everybody's notice of course.  The Vietnamese
seem particularly pugnacious, but they kill
each other in their own areas.

> Somewhat Shocking...
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>> nightclubs to get laid; these days it's to
>> get dead drunk and brawl.
Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:42 GMT
"Peter Jason" <pj@jostle.com> wrote in message news:g4n5j9

15 March, fifth day of parliament

Item, it is advised, statute and concluded that in the future one council be
chosen by the king's highness which shall sit continuously in Edinburgh, or
where the king makes his residence, or where it pleases him, to decide all
manner of summons and civil matters, complaints and causes, daily as they
occur, so that there will not be such great confusion of summons to call at
the session, and to begin the?

[1504/3/16]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that there be [a] justice depute for the Isles and sheriffs, and those
who are justice and sheriff for the Northern Isles [are] to sit in Inverness
or Dingwall, and another justice and sheriff depute [is] to sit in Tarbert
or at Loch Kilkerran? for the Southern Isles.

[1504/3/17]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is thought expedient that the lands between Badenoch and Lorn,
which are called Duart and Glen Duart, and all the lordship of Lorn, come to
Perth, Mamore and Lochaber to Inverness and Argyll, and their justice come
and sit in Perth, and hold his justiciary when it pleases the king's grace,
where every highland man and lowland man can come and seek justice.

[1504/3/18]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

It is decreed and ordained that the lands between Badenoch and Lorn, which
are called Duart and Glen Duart, and also all the lordship of Lorn, come to
the justice ayre of Perth, Mamore and Lochaber to Inverness, and that Argyll
with its bounds, and the justice sit and hold the justice ayre for it in
Perth when it pleases king's grace, so that every highland man and lowland
man may come and seek and have justice.

[1504/3/19]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that the part of Cowal that is not within the bounds of [Archibald
Campbell], earl of Argyll's justiciary [is to] come to Dunbarton.

[1504/3/20]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that the [justice] ayre of Bute and Arran, Knapdale, Kintyre and Great
Cumbrae be held at the burgh of Ayr or Bute at our sovereign lord's
pleasure.

[1504/3/21]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that a sheriff be made who shall be sheriff of Ross and he shall have
his place to sit in Tain and Dingwall, as required by the cause for which he
has to do justice.

[1504/3/22]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that a sheriff be made in Caithness and that [he] shall be called the
sheriff of the same, and he shall have jurisdiction over the whole diocese
of Caithness, and shall sit for justice in Dornock and Wick, as required by
the cause that it is complained about.

[1504/3/23]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained that the justice ayre of all these three
sheriffdoms, that is to say Inverness, Ross and Caithness, be held in the
town of Inverness.

[1504/3/24]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained that where any person happens to obtain a
remission in the future, that the said remission shall not extend to nor
save the taker from greater crimes through any general clause than is
specially contained, and that the greatest action shall be specified, or
else it shall be understood, and that [the] general clause shall not include
greater than the special clause.

[1504/3/25]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, as it is pleasing to the king's grace and it is his intention to
prevent and stop all slaughter in the future, therefore, by his command,
intention and decision, it [is] decreed, ordained and concluded that there
be no remission given for slaughter that is committed by premeditated
felony, and this statute [is] to last for [the length of] our sovereign
lord's will and until he revokes the said article in particular.

[1504/3/26]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, regarding false notaries and others in every diocese, it is thought
expedient, decreed and concluded that each bishop summon all the notaries in
his diocese and make [an] investigation into their doings and of their faith
and loyalty in their offices, and that they receive information on this and
punish and deprive those who are false or inadequate, and similarly with
those who use instruments incorrectly.

[1504/3/27]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

After noon

Item, regarding recent spulzie, that it shall be lawful for the party who is
spulzied to summon the person who spulzied in 15 days before the lords, so
that he can make his said summons within the next 15 days following the
committing of the said spulzie, despite the act made previously that all
summons shall be [made] in 21 days and in the same way before the sheriff,
and that there shall be no dilatory exceptions admitted against that
summons, it being lawfully endorsed.

[1504/3/28]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, regarding the fees sheriffs or other officers are to take for the
execution of their office in the distrenzing of persons for sums and
recovered debts, it is advised, decreed and ordained that the said sheriff
shall get 12d for each pound for the execution of his office and that is to
be taken from the person or persons from whom the sums and debts are being
recovered; and as for the fees for their processes of court or courts when
they are required to give them out, that for each act and copy of letters
they get for each piece only 4d.

[1504/3/29]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, as for the taking of gold and silver out of the [realm], it is
advised, decreed and ordained that the acts and statutes previously made for
the retention of money in the [realm], with this addition: that it is a
point of dittay on those who take the same out [of the realm], and also that
the king's highness assigns and ordains certain searchers in every town
which is a port who will have the power to search the sailors and travellers
leaving the [realm] for exporting money, whatsoever person spiritual or
temporal, and that he shall have for his fees the fourth part of the sums
that he finds, bringing in the other three that is in the king's use
excepting 40s only, which is granted to him previously by act and statutes
made for that to cover his fees, and that this regulation and act be made
for foreigners and aliens as the king's lieges. And if it can be proven that
the said searchers, or any of them, allow any more money to be exported than
the said 40s with their knowledge, he shall answer for that with his life
and dittay is to be taken on him for that.

[1504/3/30]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, regarding those who steal rabbits, pikes out of ponds, [those who]
break dovecotes or orchards, or [those who] steal bee-hives and destroy
them, and also for those who kill enclosed deer or roes or roebucks from the
lord's own woods, that that be a point of dittay in the future, and that the
fine for that be £10 along with compensation for the party according to the
injury; and if any children within age commit any of these aforesaid things,
because they cannot be punished as they are not of legal age, their fathers
or masters will pay 13s and 4d for each one of them each time [they] commit
any [of] the aforesaid trespasses or else deliver the said child to the
judge to be lashed, scourged and flogged according to his faults.

[1504/3/31]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

?[Deleted text:] Item, regarding beggars, that the statute of King James I
[...] beggars be put into swift execution, and that sheriff, provost
[...]iis within burghs put the said act into execution immediately under the
pain of 1 merk for each beggar, except lame blind people and weak people and
weak fo[...]

[1504/3/32]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained regarding bushes and ships to be made for
fishing, that the act and statute previously made for that be put into swift
and due execution.

[1504/3/33]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, as regards the penalty for [damaging] living woods, because the woods
of Scotland are utterly destroyed, the fine being so small, therefore it is
decreed and ordained that the fine for [damaging] living woods by any man by
selling or burning in the future [is to be] £5, and that both of regality
and royalty, and similarly the penalty for muir-burning after March [is to]
be £5, the old act for [damaging] living woods by any man by selling or
burning remaining in effect concerning [those who] destroy living woods in
other ways.

[1504/3/34]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, regarding the killing of kipper, it is decreed and ordained concerning
the killing of red fish during the forbidden time that because the small
penalty has been the cause and occasion that red fish have been slain in
great numbers to the great damage of the country and the common weal, and
also as regards those who kill smolt in mill dams, sluices and by netting,
thorns and cruives, it is decreed and ordained that in the future the
penalty for it for the first time will be £10, for the second time will be
£20 and for the third time the forfeiture of their lives for the committer
[of the offence]. And it shall be lawful for the barons, both spiritual and
temporal, royalty and regality, to proceed and sit for this, and to obtain a
penalty from each person convicted of this of 30s in this court. And if any
person or persons claims to have the privilege to kill such fish during the
forbidden time, by any of the aforesaid ways, that all such privileges cease
until they appear before the king and his council to show their said
privilege, [so] it may be considered whether such privilege is for the
common weal or not.

[1504/3/35]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

[Deleted text:] Item, it is decreed and ordained regarding inn-keepers and
lodgings-providers, both in burghs or in the country, because of the great
exorbitance in taking overly high and expensive fees for their lodgings,
that therefore in the future any persons who lodge and have a horse [and]
buy their horse-food from the said inn-keeper who is lodging him, that in
such a case they shall receive their bed free, and where the inn-keeper has
no horse-food within but buys it from other persons outwith [his inn] and
takes no more from them except their beds and the use of vessels for being
there, they shall pay for each person the first night 2d, if they remain
there longer 1d, and this sum [is] to be paid for entertainment and no more
under the pain for the taker to be judged an oppressor and indebted for
that. And that the officers, both in burghs and in the country, ensure this
statute be kept under the pain of personal punishment.

[1504/3/36]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Memorandum, that it be ordained that all provosts and bailies within any
burgh or town, and sheriff, bailie or steward within their bounds, advise
with their lodging-providers and inn-keepers within their bounds regarding
the lodgings, the honesty of it and the price that shall be paid for it, and
the lords justices and commissioners that go to the ayres [are to] call the
officers of each town they travel through [in] the country before and advise
about the following: what the men [who travel] on foot shall pay, [what] the
men on horses shall pay and what he shall pay who is better lodged, and what
was [paid] for his lodging.

[1504/3/37]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, regarding the division of the sheriffdoms which are ordained to be
divided due to their great size, it is advised, decreed and ordained firstly
concerning the sheriffdom of Perth, which has had Culross and Tulliallan and
also Clackmannan and all the land between it and Stirling which come to the
ayre of Fife, all these [are to] come to the ayre of Stirling in the future,
and that Tulliallan and Culross come to the sheriff court of Stirling, and
that all the persons who are put to the justice ayre of Stirling pay the
penalties both in the sheriff court and justice ayre, just as they paid
[them] before this union, and without prejudice to them in that.

Item, that the Lenzie and Larbert, the Broomage and Skathmur, Kippen, Garden
and Seabegs, which were previously of the sheriffdoms of Dunbarton, Perth
and Edinburgh, be from now on both of the sheriff court and justice ayre of
Stirling.

Item, that the lands of Buchanan, Fintry, Campsie, Strathblane, Buthrane,
Drymen, Inchcailloch and from there on west [are to] belong to the
sheriffdom of Dunbarton, and compear there both at the sheriff court and
justice ayre.

[1504/3/38]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained that all towns and ports which are along
the seaside, such as Leith, Inverkeithing, Kinghorn, Dysart, Crail and
others, sell their common goods on the walls of their town to the sea side
with ports of lime and stone.?

[1504/3/39]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, every lord and laird [is to] make enclosures with deer, ponds, rabbit
warrens, dovecotes, orchards, hedges and [to] plant at least an acre of wood
where there are no large woods or forests.

[1504/3/40]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that all [of] Scotland [is] to hold their wappenschaws annually on
Thursday in Whitsunday week [May/June], and that each officer as sheriff,
bailie or steward or others see [to it] that this act and statute is kept.

[1504/3/41]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, regarding the exception proposed by inheritors, when they are pursued
for their father's or forebears' debts to whom they have succeeded, claiming
that their father's moveable goods should pay for their debts and the
executors should be called for that before [they inherit], it is advised,
decreed and ordained that it shall be lawful for the creditor to pursue the
heir after the passage of a year because the executors should be responsible
for one year, at the end of which he should give his account, and if it
pleases the heir he can and should be diligent and request the ordinary
within the said year to seek [the] account for him and he to see the
account, and what is found [to be] remaining over of things pertaining to
their office that he should request [of] the ordinary that he might have
caution and surety for the relief of his inheritance in so far as the goods
rest beyond the account, and that the ordinary shall provide him with
sufficient caution for that, and so at the end of the year the heir will
answer to every creditor.

[1504/3/42]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is advised, decreed and ordained as regards the exception proposed
against widows pursuing and following their brieves of terce or the profits
of their terces, when it is often proposed against the widows that they were
not legal wives of the persons, their husbands, by whom they pursue their
said terce, that therefore where the matrimony was not challenged in their
lifetimes, that the woman seeking this terce being of good reputation and
held as his legal wife during his lifetime shall be terced and use her terce
without any impediment or exception to be proposed against her, forever and
until it is clearly determined and sentence given that she was not his
lawful [wife] and that she should not have a lawful terce for that.

[1504/3/43]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

[Deleted text:] Item, regarding the article made to be advised on touching
the bonds of lords and freeholders of this realm for their own lands,
bailiaries, offices, steadings and mailings, and for the bringing in of all
types of persons who are within their said bounds, it is advised, decreed
and concluded that because there is a part of the lords and freeholders of
the north side [of] the water of Forth [who are] bound to our sovereign lord
for the bringing in of all persons, trespassers staying or present within
[their areas of responsibility] to the justice ayres according to the form
of their bonds signed by their [own] hands, therefore it is decreed and
ordained in this present parliament, for the common weal of the realm, that
all the freeholders of the Borders and Highlands, and any other regions in
which there may be any rebellion in the future, or any part that pleases
that king's highness on the north side of the water of Forth, be bound
similarly as those lands which are already bound through statute of
parliament, along with those who are bound to bring in all types of criminal
persons within their bounds according to the form of the said lords' bond
signed by their hands, the tenor of which follows etc. And this statute [is]
to last for the lifetime of our sovereign lord and for the lifetime of the
said freeholders alone.

[1504/3/44]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained from now on that no baron, freeholder or
vassal who is within 100 merks of this extent that is current be compelled
to appear in person in parliament, except if it is so that our sovereign
particularly requests them, and so as not to be penalised for their absence
they send their procurators to answer on their behalf with the barons of
shire or the most well-reputed persons, and all who are above the extent of
100 merks are to come to the parliament, under the pain of the old penalty.

[1504/3/45]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that all our sovereign lord's lieges who are under his authority, and
in particular all the Isles, be governed by our sovereign lord's own laws
and the common laws of the realm, and not by any other laws.

[1504/3/46]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that all officers, provosts, bailies and others who hold the office of
administering justice within burghs be changed annually, and that no-one is
to have the office of administering justice within burghs except those who
engage in trade within the said burgh.

[1504/3/47]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained that in the future all sheriffs, stewards
or bailies who give sasine by instruction from our sovereign lord's chapel
to any persons, that they write the day and the year that they gave the said
sasine and bring the same with them in their court books to the exchequer,
and that is because the vassals are greatly disadvantaged through the
absence of their overlords and the non-entry to the superiority of their
lands after the date of the precept of sasine and raising of the same from
the chancellery.

[1504/3/48]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained by our sovereign lord in this his present
parliament, with the consent of the three estates of the same, that it shall
be lawful for our sovereign lord to set all his own lands, both annexed and
unannexed, in feu ferme to any person or persons that he pleases so that it
does not reduce his rental, grassums or any other duties, and set with such
clauses as our sovereign thinks expedient, and that this statute be of the
strength to set their lands in feu perpetually in our sovereign lord's time
that now is only, and all that he sets in his time is to last perpetually.

[1504/3/49]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained that it shall be lawful for every lord,
baron and freeholder, spiritual or temporal, to set all their lands in feu
ferme and annual rent to any person or persons so that it does not reduce
their rental, with this condition: that the said alienation be set in feu,
albeit they set the most part of their land or all their lands, it shall not
do the setter nor the taker any prejudice in any manner of way for the loss
of their lands for that alienation, notwithstanding any laws made in the
contrary upon alienations.

[1504/3/50]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained for the good of trade and for the great
[and] exorbitant expenses they incur for legal actions in parts overseas,
that therefore the conservator of this realm [is to] have jurisdiction to do
justice amongst the said merchants, our sovereign lord's lieges, that is to
say between merchant and merchant in those parts overseas, and the said
conservator [is] not to proceed in any matters amongst the said merchants
unless there are six of the best and most honest merchants with the best
knowledge of the realm who will sit and have power with him, if so many can
be found, and if there are not six [to be found], that at least four
merchants shall sit with him who will have the same power with him to
administer justice. And that no merchant [is to] pursue another before any
other judge overseas or do in the contrary to this act under the pain of £5
to be paid to the king by the pursuer and payment of the expenses to the
party pursued.

[1504/3/51]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained that the conservator of Scotland shall come
home annually, or send a responsible procurator for himself annually, who
shall answer every man on all things that they have to say to him for any
matters, and inform the king and his council that he will send the said
procurator, under the pain of the forfeiture of his office and the payment
of £20 in accordance of value to the Flemish groat to the king.

[1504/3/52]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it [is] decreed and ordained that all the malt-makers of Leith,
Edinburgh and other places around Edinburgh or other burgh towns within the
realm present their malt to the market in the future, and each day [is to]
be market day except the holy day, and the same is not to be sold until the
ninth hour under the pain of escheat of all malt that is otherwise sold. And
that the provost and bailies of every town see [to it] that this statute is
kept, and that they have [the] power of escheat [for] the same, and answer
to our sovereign lord in his exchequer annually for that no matter whose
hand it is found in. And that the malt-makers take no more for the making of
one chalder of malt than one boll of barley, and whoever does in the
contrary shall be considered oppressors of the king's lieges and dittay
[will be] taken for that to the justice ayre.

[1504/3/53]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained that because in the past there has been
great abuse in the proposal of frivolous exceptions against brieves of
inquest by subverting its order and nature, as [if] they were brieves of
legal action, therefore, in order to avoid such frivolous exceptions in the
future, it is decreed and ordained that no exception will be of value
against the said brieve of inquest [once] it has been publicly settled for
15 days with the endorsement of the officer who called it, containing two
witnesses and his seal or signet, except for these following exceptions
only: that is to say, against the judge, against the inquest and the
exception of bastardry, and that [is] to be proposed in the form of old law.
And as regards the exception made for the summoning of the inquest for 15
days before according to the form of the statute of King Robert, which makes
mention that the inquest should be summoned for 15 days before it shall be
lawful, despite the said statute, [it is] to the sheriff or any other
officer who is judge for the brieve of inquest to summon the said inquest
for whatever days it pleases him or for whatever shorter time, despite the
said statute, and also if they are present in the tolbooth unsummoned so
that there can be no other lawful exception against them, it shall be lawful
for the sheriff or officer to compel them to pass on the said inquest. And
further, because there has been abuse in the calling of the king's brieves
in stewartries and bailiaries where they were proclaimed on a hill without a
gathering of people being there, so there was no way that knowledge of [the
brieve] could reach the party, therefore it is decreed and ordained that all
types of brieves of inquest shall be called at the market cross of the main
burgh publicly in full market when the largest number of people is gathered,
so that the calling of [brieves] may be known to the party defending and
where it should be served and on which day; and that the said brieve be
called three times in public together and between each call there [should
be] time for all three proclamations; and that officers of the town be
warned to compear at the said proclamation to bear witness. And if it
happens that the predecessor of anyone claiming right dies too close to the
term of Whitsunday [May/June] or Martinmas [11 November], that the pursuer
can not proclaim it on a market day due to the proximity of the term of
Whitsunday and Martinmas, in that case it shall be lawful for him to cause
his brieve to be proclaimed on any week day, so that he has the officers of
the town and some of the honest persons [of the town] numbering six people,
saving for our sovereign his warning of 40 days according to old habit and
custom.

[1504/3/54]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that no markets or fairs be held on holy days or within churches and
churchyards on holy days or other days, under the pain of escheat of goods.

[1504/3/55]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained that all the merchants of the realm and the
burghs use and have their old freedoms and privileges [which were] granted
and given to them by our sovereign lord's progenitors, of most noble memory,
[to] be observed and kept for them, and that no person dwelling outwith the
burghs [is to] engage in any trade or to tap or sell wine, wax, silk,
spices, dye or similar stuff, or staple goods, and that no-one [is to] pack
or unpack [goods] in Leith or other places outwith the king's burghs, under
the pain of escheat of the goods for the king's use that are tapped, sold,
packed or unpacked against this statute.

[1504/3/56]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

[Deleted text:] Item, that no craftsman may use his skill and trade together
within a burgh from now on, under the pain [...]

[1504/3/57]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that the commissioners and chiefs of burghs be warned when taxes or
contributions are given, to have their votes as one of the three estates of
the realm.

[1504/3/58]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

[Deleted text:] Item, that all privileges granted to the burghs previously
regarding the selling and using of trade be observed and kept for them in
all points as [...]

[1504/3/59]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that provosts, aldermen or bailies do not make burgesses without the
advice and consent of the great council of the town, and that the profit
taken for making each burgess be put to the common good and disbursed on the
common works

[1504/3/60]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed regarding the good of trade that the old act concerning
sailors be swiftly put into execution, and the customs officers show the
officer of the town who does in the contrary, and that the said officers
ensure this act be put into due execution as they will answer to the king.

[1504/3/61]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that no fellow-workers, craftsmen or gentlemen burgesses or
inhabitants in the burgh go against the authority of the king's officers
chosen in the burghs, or make leagues or bonds against the same, under the
pains contained in the laws and statutes of the burgh.

[1504/3/62]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, that no-one [is to] store wool, hides or animal skins in Leith or in
other places outwith free burghs in order to keep the king's customs coming
in complete as is fitting.

[1504/3/63]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, regarding lands and baronies which lie in several sheriffdoms that are
annexed or united into one holding or barony, that, despite the said
annexation or union, the persons [who] inhabit the said annexed lands shall
abide the law before the sheriff or steward or bailie and justice where the
said annexed lands lie, despite the said annexation and union.

[1504/3/64]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained regarding the importing of bullion [...]?

[1504/3/65]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained [that] because there has been great abuse
of justice and great expenses incurred by the parties pursuing their lands
and inheritance by the brieve of right and other brieves that may be sued by
proposing frivolous exceptions and sureties and counter-pledges and falsing
of dooms, that therefore in the future where any doom is falsed either
through dilatory or peremptory exceptions or otherwise in the pursuit of the
brieve of right, the party that falses the said doom before the sheriff,
steward, bailie, any other officer or their deputies shall compear before
the justice clerk within the period of 15 days and present his process of
the falsing of the said doom, and with the advice of our sovereign lord or
his justice a justice ayre shall immediately thereafter be set for
discussing and closing the said falsed doom within 40 days and the justice,
[either] through his precept or by summoning directly the sheriff, shall
warn both the parties of the said day appointed for the discussing of the
said doom. And the freeholders and suitors shall attend the said justice
ayre within the sheriffdom or stewartry where the said doom shall be
discussed and ward there under the pain of the penalty of the court, and if
the said doom is falsed in the justice ayre concerning the said brieve or if
there are any other brieves which may be sued presented to the justice, and
the doom happens to be false in their pursuit similarly after the falsing of
that doom within 15 days after that, the party that falses the doom shall
appear before the clerk register and our sovereign lord's council and
present his process of falsing of doom, and after that the said clerk of
council shall show the same to our sovereign lord who shall depute 30 or 40
persons, or more or fewer as [it] pleases his highness, who shall have the
[same] power as [if] it were in a parliament to decide and discuss the said
doom. And the parties [are] to be warned by our sovereign lord's letters for
the appointed day for the discussing of the said doom, which shall be set on
40 days, within which time it will be lawful to any of the parties to give
in their reasons. And if there is a doom falsed before the provost and
bailies within the burgh or before a baron or other freeholder, the falsing
party of the said doom shall similarly appear if it is falsed within the
burgh to the chamberlain and present to him the process of falsing of the
said doom, who shall set a court of the four burghs on 40 days and ensure
the said doom be discussed, and similarly where the doom is falsed before
the baron or freeholder in their courts, then the falser of the said doom
shall appear before the sheriff or another immediate superior of that court
who will set his court on 40 days and ensure the said doom be discussed and
warn the parties of it, and cause the suitors of the sheriffdom to ward
thereupon. And if it is falsed in the said courts of four burghs or in the
sheriff court, [it is] to have the same process in the immediate superior
court as is noted above. And the parties [are] to have the privilege to give
in their reasons any time before the day appointed for discussing the said
dooms, and this [is] to have process in all manner of falsed dooms, as well
as brieves and other civil matters.

[1504/3/66]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained that all measures and weights, such as
pint, quart, firlot, peck, elwand,? stone and pound, be of one quantity and
measure, which will be ordained in Edinburgh by our sovereign and his
chamberlain [and] council, and that every burgh [is to] come and fetch these
measures from Edinburgh, sealed and made, and keep [to] the same. And where
there are any fermes owed in inheritance of the old measure, that the said
fermes be proportionate to the quantity of the old measure and paid in
proportion with the new measure to the value of the old measure. And if any
persons use any other measures or weights in the future except the measures
and weights that are now to be made, as is said, it shall be a point of
dittay and they [are] to be indicted for that from now on.

[1504/3/67]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, regarding the importing of bullion, that it is decreed and ordained
that the old acts and statutes for that be put into execution and observed
and kept, and the customs officers [are to] receive the said bullion from
the merchants and give an account of it in the exchequer.

[1504/3/68]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed [and] ordained that because there is and has been much
doubt and refusal to accept the money which has course in the realm, it
being either cracked or flawed, therefore in the future no-one is to refuse
to accept any money, silver or gold, for their merchandise which has course
in this realm despite it being either cracked or flawed, with certification
that whoever acts against this will forfeit the silver they refuse [to
accept] to be escheated to the king, and the buyer is to receive the goods
that he would have bought with the said money.

[1504/3/69]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Item, it is decreed and ordained that in the future no sheriff or officer
[is to] poind or distrenzie the oxen, horses or other goods pertaining to
the plough which works the ground at the time the same is being worked,
where any other goods or lands are to be appraised and poinded according to
common law.

[1504/3/70]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

It is decreed and ordained that the words of falsing of dooms be changed in
this manner: that where any party thinks him[self] hurt he shall use these
words, 'I am greatly hurt and injured by the said doom, therefore I appeal
and find security in the officer's hand of the court to pursue the said
appeal according to the law made previously and within the time, just as is
contained in the said law of the realm'.?
Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:41 GMT
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:nkEbk.35

udicial proceedings: processes of treason
[1504/3/11]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

Witnesses to the summons of John MacLean of Lochbuie and the summons of
Lauchlan MacLean of Duart and Ewan, son of Allan [Cameron of Lochiel], for
treason etc., and they swore oaths in the presence of parliament:

 a.. Walter Dempster
 b.. Thomas Copeland
 c.. William Haldane
 d.. John Cuthbert
[1504/3/12]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

On which day Master James Henderson presented three letters of summons of
treason, that is to say, one for John MacLean of Lochbuie, another for
Lauchlan MacLean of Duart and the third for Ewan, son of Allan [Cameron of
Lochiel], the tenor of which summons, along with the execution and
endorsement of the same, follows; and the execution of the said summons was
proven by the seal of Gilpatrick Cor and the four aforenoted witnesses.

[1504/3/13]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

On which day the said three summons of treason were continued until Saturday
16 March current in the same form, force and effect as they were and are
now, with continuation of days and hours.
Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:41 GMT
"Peter Jason" <pj@jostle.com> wrote in message

Legislation
[1504/3/6]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

On which day our sovereign lord ratified, approved and, by the authority of
parliament, confirmed the donation and gift of our sovereign lady, the
queen's dowry and morning-gift,? according to the form of the charters etc.
At the eleventh hour.

[1504/3/7]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

On which day our sovereign lord, with the authority of parliament, dissolved
the annexation of the church of Kirkandrews from the lord of Galloway and
his crown to the priory of Whithorn, there to remain in the future in full
for Kirkinner to be annexed to the chapel royal etc., for which Master James
Henderson, advocate to the king, and [George Vaus], bishop of Galloway
requested instruments etc. At the eleventh hour.

[1504/3/8]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

On which day our sovereign lord revoked, with the consent of the three
estates of parliament, all donations, gifts, acts, statutes of parliament or
general council, and all other things made by him in the past, either
hurting his soul, his crown or the holy church, and the said said donations,
gifts, acts, statutes or other things thus revoked [are to] be had as not
made and [are] to be removed from the books and writings.

[1504/3/9]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]

On which day our sovereign lord, with the authority of parliament, ratifies
and approves the establishing and infeftments made to the college of
Stirling, called his chapel royal, both of the churches, prebends,
chanonries and lands and the unions of the same, according to the form of
foundation, writs and evidence made for that, despite any annexations or
union previously made of the said lands, prebends or churches.
Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:40 GMT
"Tiglath" <temp5@tiglath.net> wrote in message news:d5232e99-29df-4e47-a60e-
ommittee members: lords of the articles
 a.. The lords of the articles
 b.. [Robert Blackadder], archbishop of Glasgow
 c.. [George Brown, bishop of] Dunkeld
 d.. [William Elphinstone, bishop of] Aberdeen
 e.. [Andrew Forman, bishop of] Moray
 f.. [Robert Cockburn, bishop of] Ross
 g.. [David Arnott], abbot of Cambuskenneth
 a.. For the barons
 b.. [Alexander Gordon, earl of] Huntly
 c.. [Archibald Campbell, earl of] Argyll
 d.. [Patrick Hepburn, earl of] Bothwell
 e.. [Matthew Stewart, earl of] Lennox
 f.. [Alexander Home, lord] Home
 g.. [Andrew Gray, lord] Gray
 a.. Burgesses
 b.. Alexander Lands, provost of Edinburgh
 c.. Alexander Menzies, provost of Aberdeen
 d.. James Rollock, provost of Dundee
 e.. Robert Bruce for Stirling
 f.. William Carmichael for Edinburgh
 g.. George of Touris [for Edinburgh]
 h.. Nicol MacBrair, alderman of Dumfries
Ed Stasiak - 05 Jul 2008 15:51 GMT
> Tiglath
>
> It's enough to make one wish for the availability of guns.   The poor
> souls may have been shot instead and spared the horror of cold steel
> slicing skin, muscle, and nerve, over and over.

Thou it's suggested in the article that the victim made the mistake
of opening the door without checking to see who was knocking,
(expecting his friend) which allowed the murderers to push their
way in.  So even if the victim had had a firearm in the apartment,
he probably wouldn't have been able to get to it in time.

None the less, everybody (especially Brits) ought to remember
that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away....
Gernot Hassenpflug - 07 Jul 2008 02:33 GMT
>> Tiglath
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> way in.  So even if the victim had had a firearm in the apartment,
> he probably wouldn't have been able to get to it in time.

A sobering thought. Lack of imagination is probably a major hazard for
most of us in self-defence situations---we simply do not imagine what
possible scenarios could arise. And why should we, the chances are so
minute that to worry about that on a daily basis would be
lunatic. However, some ground rules should be developed by everyone
that respects their own life enough that are robust enough that the
primitive instincts can be channelled into action when necessary
without being at the surface all the time.

The one poor student was stabbed another 82 times *after* he was
dead. It is a bit hard to imagine the rationale of the murderers for
such actions. If the motive was to get, say, the PIN numbers, and
survive the encounter, the rational thing would be to get out as
quickly as possible (firebombing to destroy the evidence) and not
stick around for senseless stuff.... the most dangerous are those
whose motives cannot be guessed at, so they are more difficult to
defend against.

> None the less, everybody (especially Brits) ought to remember
> that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away....

Indeed. Very good to keep that in mind: you're on your own, and no
amount of pretending otherwise is going to change that sad and forlorn
fact---so there cannot be any instant of hesitation when the senses
tell one the need for desperately violent self-defence action.
Signature

BOFH excuse #149:

Dew on the telephone lines.

Boedicia@isp.com - 07 Jul 2008 06:19 GMT
> > Tiglath
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> None the less, everybody (especially Brits) ought to remember
> that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away....

 The present Mayor of London has advised people *not*
to  fight back.  Too bad he wasn't around in 1939,
the Krauts could just have walked in without firing a shot.  However,
one must make excuses for
The Mayor, since he really isn't a "real'
Englishman,  he's part Turk, part jew and God knows what else and it
shows.
 
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