British Scum Kill Two French Students In Tarantino-Like Murders
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D. Spencer Hines - 04 Jul 2008 22:19 GMT "Welcome to Labour´s Britain. I would hope when the police find the murderers the human rights activists will protect them. After all the students provoked them into this act of self defence! No wonder Canada wants decent Brits to emigrate. There are not many of them left."
- Peter Glazier, Sao Paulo, Brazil ------------------------------------------------------------
French students 'were tortured for their Bank details in bungled robbery' Last updated at 16:15pm on 04.07.08 This Is London
Police believe two French students living in Britain who were bound up and brutally murdered may have been tortured for their bank details in a bungled robbery.
Detectives are now following a 'strong line if inquiry' that Laurent Bonomo and Gabriel Ferez, both 23, were killed in a robbery that escalated into a horrific double-murder.
It is thought they could have been tortured for hours so that they would give up PIN numbers to their bank and credit cards.
The theory has gathered pace with the discovery by detectives that two mobile phones and two new Sony PSP games consoles had been stolen from Mr Bonomo's flat.
Officers hope the phones will be used so that they can trace the signal and find the handsets. If bank cards were stolen, their use could also be traced.
Scotland Yard have issued an urgent appeal to anyone who might have been offered the stolen phones or consoles for sale in the past few days to contact them.
Mr Bonomo and Mr Ferez, already marked out as the most gifted of their generation, were killed just eight weeks after arriving in Britain from their native France.
Hailed as 'brilliant' and destined for stellar careers, they were murdered in a frenzied, barbaric attack at Mr Bonomo's flat in New Cross, south-east London.
They were both tied to chairs, tortured and then stabbed almost 250 times in the head, chest and back before finally being set on fire.
A subsequent explosion - described as a 'gun crack' by neighbours - left a pair of charred, mutilated bodies that could only be identified from DNA.
The murder of the two bio-engineering students, who had been invited to Britain to take part in ground-breaking scientific research, has stunned hardened detectives.
It also sent shockwaves across France where the loss of two of the country's finest young minds was seen as proof of Britain's spiral into knife-obsessed lawlessness.
Police now believe the students, who were found on Sunday night, may simply have been the victims of a bungled burglary.
Six days before the murders, Mr Bonomo disturbed an intruder who stole a laptop as he took an early morning shower.
Police are examining the possibility that a drug-addicted burglar later returned and subjected the men to an unimaginable ordeal.
Details of the theft theory, which is the strongest lead in a case that has baffled seasoned detectives, emerged as the full horror of the killings was revealed.
One source said last night officers were still unsure if one or more killers were involved. But he added: 'We expect to make an arrest sooner rather than later.'
Mr Bonomo was stabbed 196 times, with up to 100 wounds inflicted on his back after death.
Mr Ferez, who lived several miles away in Thornton Heath, suffered 47 separate injuries.
Detectives are trying to establish whether Mr Bonomo was already being tortured when Mr Ferez turned up at his friend's flat.
They believe it is possible Mr Bonomo opened the door thinking his friend was there and was met by his attacker instead before the second student arrived later.
The theory would explain how the two fit, young men could have been overpowered.
Investigators have also not ruled out that there could be several attackers, because of the sheer number of injuries inflicted on both bodies.
Post-mortem examinations found they were both stabbed in the head, neck and chest. Sources said they had been bound and gagged before they were killed.
Police believe an accelerant was poured on or near their bodies, possibly to destroy evidence, and the flat set alight, causing a minor explosion.
Criminals are increasingly turning to arson to cover up their crimes due to the growing use of DNA evidence - what police call the 'CSI effect'.
One detective compared the killings to a Quentin Tarantino film.
He said: 'The scale of the violence is extraordinary. This was like a scene from a Tarantino gangster film but these men were not criminals. These were two talented and innocent men who had no history of criminality.'
The victims are believed to have been playing computer games when they were attacked by one or more men in Sterling Gardens, a normally quiet road in New Cross.
There was no evidence of forced entry.
Detectives said Mr Bonomo and Mr Ferez were 'entirely innocent', with no criminal background in France or Britain.
They added there was nothing 'immediately obvious' in their private lives which could explain why someone would want to cause them so much suffering.
A visibly shocked Detective Chief Inspector Mick Duthie, the officer in charge of the inquiry, said: 'The extent of the injuries are horrific. I have never seen injuries like this throughout my career.'
Mr Duthie said police were hunting a white man seen running from the flats shortly after the explosion. But they have not ruled out that others may have been involved.
He added: 'I would not say this was a professional attack. I would say it was a frenzied, horrible, horrific-attack. I imagine it would take some considerable amount of time to inflict the nature of the injuries.'
Last night a neighbour who lived above the murder scene told of the moment when he realised the flat below was burning.
Henry Chuks, 32, said: 'I was watching television with my wife when I heard two or three loud bangs at about 10pm, it sounded like someone had dropped something really heavy.
'The whole building was shaking. It sounded like a big fridge had fallen down.'
Mr Bonomo and Mr Ferez had won three-month internships at Imperial College, London, following glittering academic careers.
Both were graduates of colleges linked to the Ecole Polytechnique, the state-run institution founded in 1794 which is viewed as the most prestigious engineering college in France.
They were due to return home later this month.
Mr Bonomo - who was called 'Lolo' - was known to be alive in the early hours of Sunday morning because he spoke to his fiancee Mary Bertez in France.
Last night the 23-year-old French literature student left an internet tribute.
She wrote: 'My love, we were always together but unfortunately I wasn't there that evening.
'I will never stop thinking about you for a second. I had 10 months of a happiness I had never experienced-until then. Today you are gone. I will try to be as good as you always wanted.
'I will give all the required information to the investigation, my dear, so you can be avenged. I love you my darling from the depths of my heart.'
She was said to be 'devastated beyond belief'. A friend said: 'Her world has fallen apart.'
The families of the murdered students travelled to London to identify their sons but were too traumatised to talk. Police said they were returning home immediately.
Anyone with information should call the incident room on 020 8721 4155 or Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111.
The possible motives
Theft:
A burglar broke in to the bedsit six days earlier and stole a laptop. Did he return and torture his pleading victims in a bid to obtain more valuable items? Sources described this as a key line of the inquiry.
Drugs:
The ferocity of the murders has prompted speculation that the killer or killers could have been on crack cocaine - which can cause paranoia and extreme violence. Or, for whatever reason, did the men fall out with a local drug dealer?
Mental illness:
The violence could be the work of a psychopath or person with an acute personality disorder. Police will check on seriously mentally ill individuals in the area.
Sex:
Although neither victim suffered sexual injuries, police cannot rule out completely the possibility of a sexual motive. Did the killer or killers get a sadistic pleasure from inflicting unimaginable pain? Was there a bizarre homosexual motive?
Revenge:
Strong feelings of revenge can sometimes prompt horrific acts of violence. But police see no obvious reason why the men would attract such hostile feelings.
Mistaken identity :
Were the men mistaken for other individuals who were the intended targets?
<http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23506646-details/French+students+tort ured+and+stabbed+250+times+in+Tarantino-style+raid+on+London+home/article.do>
Jack Linthicum - 04 Jul 2008 22:36 GMT > "Welcome to Labour´s Britain. I would hope when the police find the > murderers the human rights activists will protect them. After all the [quoted text clipped - 213 lines] > > <http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23506646-details/French+st...> Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition
Nebulous - 04 Jul 2008 23:01 GMT "Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:cb442296-889f-
28 November 1494 Judicial proceedings: acts of the lords auditors of causes and complaints [1494/11/7]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
28 November, all the lords auditors sat except [John Lyon], lord Glamis
The lords auditors of causes and complaints decree and deliver that James Kennedy of the Row of Stinchar, for all that they have so far seen, shall content and pay James Abercrombie, burgess of Stirling, assignee of the late Sir David Robertson, provost of Monybole,? the sum of 50 merks and 11s usual money of Scotland yearly for the period of 5 years, and 40 bolls of meal yearly for the said 5 years, owed by the said James Kennedy to the said late Sir David and now to the said James Abercrombie as assignee of the said late Sir David, for certain lands which he had in lease from the said provost, just as the said James Kennedy was bound by his obligation under his seal and signature, and the said instrument of assignation made to the said James Abercrombie for that shown and produced before the lords, and ordain that letters be written to distrenzie the said James Kennedy of his lands and goods for that, and he was summoned to this action, often called and did not compear.
[1494/11/8]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
The lords auditors sat in the afternoon except [John Lyon], lord Glamis
The lords auditors decree and deliver that for all that they have seen so far Christian Livingston, the spouse of the late William Scott, does wrong in the detention and withholding from James Livingston of Mannerston of the mails and duties of the fourth part of the lands and barony of Fordell, with exception of the seventh part, with its pertinents, lying within the sheriffdom of Fife, and [they] therefore ordain her to content and pay the said James the mails and duties of the said lands insofar as he can sufficiently prove [they are] owed to him by her for past terms and for the three years contained in the summons, for the production of which proof the lords auditors appoint 4 December next, with continuation of days, for the said James and ordain him to have letters to summon his witnesses to prove the value and the quantity of the said mails and for which terms [they had been] collected and intromitted with by the said Christian, and that she [is to] be warned to hear the witnesses sworn. And [the lords] also decree and deliver that the said Christian has forfeited her warrant which she claimed to have in the said matter because she failed to produce her warrant [at] the term appointed for her, she being often called for that. And [the lords] also decree and deliver that for all that they have so far seen the said Christian shall remain with the tack of the said lands, she paying 10 merks yearly for them according to the form of the arrangement made for that in the presence of the lords, as was proven by the decreet from the lords of council given for that, which mails pertain to the said James in inheritance as was proven by his instrument of sasine made for that, shown and produced before the lords.
[1494/11/9]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
In the presence of the lords of council John of Crawford of the Keirhill [...]?
Boedicia@isp.com - 05 Jul 2008 00:30 GMT > > "Welcome to Labour´s Britain. I would hope when the police find the > > murderers the human rights activists will protect them. After all the [quoted text clipped - 215 lines] > > Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition- There is never a Tony Martin around when you need them. Just imagine if one of these men had been armed. They could have defended themselves against what can only be called a vicious, unprovoked attack by, IMO, is more than one person. We will have to wait and see if they were a gang of feral gypos, as in the Tony Martin case, a gang of drug crazed darkies, a gang of Paki whitemen haters or something else. Whoever, there is no doubt that the usual morons will appear and try to find an excuse why people should not be allowed to defend themselevs if attacked in the hopes that the filth will quietly go away once they have cleaned the victim out.
"They were giving us the evil eye" Idiotic jury in Tony Martin case.
Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text - Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:39 GMT <Boedicia@isp.com> wrote in message news:9c4f0f6f-c468-4fb7-b5f4-
ederunt Third day of parliament, 13 March 1503 [1504]
The lord king was present
a.. Present on the said day: b.. a.. Bishops b.. [Robert Blackadder], archbishop of Glasgow c.. [George Brown, bishop of] Dunkeld d.. [William Elphinstone, bishop of] Aberdeen e.. [Andrew Forman, bishop of] Moray f.. [John Fraser, bishop of] Ross g.. [George Vaus, bishop of] Galloway h.. [Andrew Stewart, bishop of] Caithness i.. [David Hamilton, bishop of] Argyll a.. Abbots b.. [John Hepburn], prior of St Andrews c.. [George Crichton], abbot of Holyrood d.. [James Beaton, abbot of] Dunfermline e.. Melrose? f.. [George Hepburn, abbot of] Arbroath? g.. [David Arnott, abbot of] Cambuskenneth h.. [Robert Shaw, abbot of] Paisley i.. [John Shanwell, abbot of] Coupar [Angus] j.. [John Turnbull, abbot of] Newbattle k.. [Henry Orme, abbot of] Lindores l.. [William Bunche, abbot of] Kilwinning m.. [Walter Bunch, abbot of] Balmerino a.. Earls b.. [Alexander Gordon, earl of] Huntly c.. [Archibald Campbell, earl of] Argyll d.. [Alexander Lindsay, earl of] Crawford e.. [John Douglas, earl of] Morton f.. [Patrick Hepburn, earl of] Bothwell g.. [William Keith, earl] Marischal h.. [Matthew Stewart, earl of] Lennox i.. [James Hamilton, earl of] Arran a.. The lord barons? b.. [Alexander Home, lord] Home c.. [Andrew Gray, lord] Gray d.. [Hugh Montgomery, lord] Montgomery e.. [John Oliphant, lord] Oliphant f.. [Andrew Stewart, lord] Avondale g.. [John] Ross of Hawkhead h.. [William Borthwick, lord] Borthwick i.. [John Colquhoun, lord] Luss j.. [John Drummond, lord] Drummond k.. [William Knollis, lord] St John l.. Sir John Ram[...] m.. Sir David Kennedy n.. [Alexander Home], master of Home o.. [William Hay], master of Erroll p.. [Logan of] Restalrig q.. [Scott of] Balwearie r.. [Douglas of] Lochleven s.. Colville t.. Sir John Somerville u.. Langton v.. Scraling? w.. Craigmillar x.. Cros[...] y.. Haw[...]
William Black - 05 Jul 2008 08:46 GMT There is never a Tony Martin around when you need them. Just imagine if one of these men had been armed. They could have defended themselves against what can only be called a vicious, unprovoked attack by, IMO, is more than one person. We will have to wait and see if they were a gang of feral gypos, as in the Tony Martin case, a gang of drug crazed darkies, a gang of Paki whitemen haters or something else. Whoever, there is no doubt that the usual morons will appear and try to find an excuse why people should not be allowed to defend themselevs if attacked in the hopes that the filth will quietly go away once they have cleaned the victim out.
--------------
Oh well.
I suppose we should be grateful she isn't claiming it was a Jewish ritual murder.
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:59 GMT "William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message news:g4n8t2
Additional Sources 19 March 1504 Procedure: memoranda [A1504/3/81]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
19 March 1503 [1504]
Memorandum, regarding the Strome, that [Alexander Gordon], lord of Huntly pass and gain control of the same as shall be thought expedient by the king's highness.
[A1504/3/82]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Memorandum, secondly to write to [John] MacIan [of Ardnamurchan],? [John] MacLean of Lochbuie,? Grete? [Alexander] MacLeod [of Dunvegan and Harris],? Ranald, son of Allan [MacDonald, captain of Clanranald],? [Gilleonan or Gallion?] MacNeill of Barra,? [Neil?] MacKinnon [of Mishnish and Strathordell],? [Dunslaf] MacQuarrie [of Ulva]? and Torquil MacLeod [of Lewis],? in this form: that for as much as our sovereign lord in this present parliament has forfeited these people, etc., that is to say Lauchlan MacLean of Duart? and Ewan, son of Allan [Cameron of Lochiel],? for usurping our sovereign lord's authority and other treasonous crimes, for this reason they are to attack and pursue the said persons and their accomplices, our sovereign lord's rebels, and capture and bring in the same and harry, destroy and burn their lands. And if they arrest and capture and bring to our sovereign lord any of the chiefs, they shall get half of all their lands. And if they capture and bring in any other chiefs and other men [who are] their accomplices, the captors shall be rewarded for that to the [same] value that the person who is captured has in land or goods. And whoever assists them or does not do their best for their capture, bringing in and destruction shall be known as art and part allies with them and be accused and pursued for treason for their assistance and supporting [of them] by that and [shall be] forfeited just like them and punished by our sovereign lord when he comes to those parts with them and so on. And the said persons must immediately let our sovereign lord know what way they think is the most expedient for destroying the said rebels.
[A1504/3/83]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, these proclamations [are to be] made in Latin and letters to the aforesaid effect sent to all persons both [in] the Isles and ferme-land in neighbouring areas.
[A1504/3/84]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Memorandum, [Alexander Gordon], earl of Huntly takes it on hand to send letters to Ranald, son of Allan [MacDonald, captain of Clanranald], and [Neil?] MacKinnon [of Mishnish and Strathordell].
[A1504/3/85]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
[Archibald Campbell], earl of Argyll is to take on [John] MacIan [of Ardnamurchan's] and [John] MacLean of Lochbuie's letters, and [John Fraser], bishop of Ross is to take on [Alexander] MacLeod [of Dunvegan and Harris's] letters.
[A1504/3/86]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, regarding the girth, that [Alexander Stewart], lord of Ross and the churchmen provide for that as they think to be done.
[A1504/3/87]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Memorandum, regarding the building of Inverlochy and the discussion of it with [Alexander Gordon], earl of Huntly.
[A1504/3/88]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Memorandum, on the building of Dunaverty or Loch Kilkerran? at the king's pleasure, and that our sovereign lord discuss with [Archibald Campbell], earl of Argyll both concerning the building and the keeping of the masons.
[A1504/3/89]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Memorandum, to warn all the parties of realm where our sovereign lord thinks [it] expedient to make them ready with their ships and gear when they are charged to travel to the Isles by public proclamation.
[A1504/3/90]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Memorandum, that our sovereign lord collect all his artillery, wherever it [may] be in his realm, and call the former masters of it to answer for it.
[A1504/3/91]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Memorandum, that the bond of the middle border be made like the bond of the southern border, and that the lords and freeholders of the same that are in this town sign the same.
[A1504/3/92]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Memorandum, that the session [is to] sit still until Palm Sunday [31 March] for the shires of Fife, Lothian and Berwick, and Renfrew that it was last left at, and thereafter to be continued until the Tuesday after Trinity Sunday [2 June], and the exchequer [is to] begin after Midsummer.
[A1504/3/93]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
These are the lords who shall sit now on the session: that is to say, [William Elphinstone, bishop of] Aberdeen, [Andrew Forman, bishop of] Moray, [John Fraser, bishop of] Ross, [David Hamilton, bishop of] Argyll, [John Hepburn], prior of St Andrews, [James Beaton], postulate of Dunfermline, [George Crichton], abbot of Holyrood, [David Arnott, abbot of] Cambuskenneth, [Matthew Stewart], lord of Lennox, [Hugh Montgomery], lord Montgomery, [John Ross], lord Ross [of Hawkhead], [John Drummond], lord Drummond, Sir John Ogilvy, Sir William, Sir John Ramsay, Master William Wawane, Sir John Stirling, Master R[ichard] Lawson, the clerk of the pannis,? Master James Henderson.
Boedicia@isp.com - 07 Jul 2008 06:10 GMT On Jul 5, 12:46 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> <Boedi...@isp.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I suppose we should be grateful she isn't claiming it was a Jewish ritual > murder. Those take place in towns like Lincoln (Little St. Hugh). Gives one the shivers doesn't it.
> -- > William Black snip one of the daftest sigs on the net. Only an idiot would put such inane drivel at the end of his one line rubbish. What a waste of space.
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. I believe it. That's what happens when one is not in full command of their senses.
John Briggs - 07 Jul 2008 11:57 GMT > On Jul 5, 12:46 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Those take place in towns like Lincoln (Little St. Hugh). Gives > one the shivers doesn't it. Here we have - inadvertently - a medieval topic! Do you have anything to say about "Little St Hugh"? Or about the story told by Richard of Devizes [f.39r-f.40r]? (Richard was the first to use 'holocaust' in its modern sense.)
 Signature John Briggs
Boedicia@isp.com - 10 Jul 2008 00:16 GMT > Boedi...@isp.com wrote: > > On Jul 5, 12:46 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Here we have - inadvertently - a medieval topic! Do you have anything to say > about "Little St Hugh"? Of course. Whenever I am in Lincoln I go to Lincoln Cathedral and pray for his soul before his resting place. If you ever go there, you will notice a handwritten note taped to the inside of the glass that surrounds his memorial. Somone (guess who") apparently persuaded the powers that be, to inform those of us who visit his last resting place that it was "racism" to "blame the jews for his death". In these daft P.C. days, there is no event in history that can't be explained away because of "racism". Hugh was found in a well on jew owned property during Passover. There wasn't a mark on his body but it was said that much of his blood had been drained. Whether that was true or not we have no way of knowing since it was 100's of years ago. The jew blamed "bllod libel" on the events that followed i.e. the hanging of several jews.
Or about the story told by Richard of Devizes
> [f.39r-f.40r]? (Richard was the first to use 'holocaust' in its modern sense.) I refer you to Lady Olga Maitland who said -
"I am sick and tired of hearing about the holocaust".
And so say all of us.
> -- > John Briggs- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - John Briggs - 10 Jul 2008 00:40 GMT >> Boedi...@isp.com wrote: >>> On Jul 5, 12:46 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > true or not we have no way of knowing since it was > 100's of years ago. That is almost complete nonsense. Children were murdered then at almost the same rate as nowadays - and by much the same people.
 Signature John Briggs
Raymond O'Hara - 07 Jul 2008 18:13 GMT > William Black snip one of the daftest sigs on the net. Only an idiot would put such inane drivel at the end of his one line rubbish. What a waste of space.
> I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. I believe it. That's what happens when one is not in full command of their senses.
=====================================================================
i gather you've never seen 'blade runner' the sig is great parody. its the only worthwhile part of blackguard's posts
John Kane - 07 Jul 2008 19:39 GMT On Jul 4, 7:30 pm, "Boedi...@isp.com" <Boedi...@isp.com> wrote:
> > > "Welcome to Labour´s Britain. I would hope when the police find the > > > murderers the human rights activists will protect them. After all the [quoted text clipped - 217 lines] > > There is never a Tony Martin around when you need them. This must mean that you really don't know anything about the Tony Martin case.
The man was a seriously disturbed person who seems to have murdered a couple of break and enter scum when in no real danger himself. And of course he was stupid enough to tell all sorts of witnesses including local police that he was going to do it.
Fred J. McCall - 08 Jul 2008 04:28 GMT :The man was a seriously disturbed person ... Then those break in artists shouldn't have disturbed him.
:... who seems to have murdered a :couple of break and enter scum when in no real danger himself. This seems a silly statement. How can you call it murder when all the 'victims' had to do was NOT BREAK IN to avoid getting hurt.
:And of :course he was stupid enough to tell all sorts of witnesses including :local police that he was going to do it. Well, let me make it clear to you. I fully intend to do my very best to kill anyone who breaks into or forces their way into my home. If they do that, I have no choice but to assume that they intend to do me grievous bodily harm and will act accordingly.
Fortunately, I live in a civilized country where victims of crime are allowed to protect themselves and criminals aren't given preferential protections from the risks of their chosen behaviours. That means that the police and the courts will make the same assumption I do.
If you don't want to get dead, don't break into other peoples' homes.
 Signature "Oooo, scary! Y'know, there are a lot scarier things in the world than you ... and I'm one of them."
-- Buffy the vampire
Boedicia@isp.com - 10 Jul 2008 00:33 GMT > On Jul 4, 7:30 pm, "Boedi...@isp.com" <Boedi...@isp.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 222 lines] > This must mean that you really don't know anything about the Tony > Martin case. I know everything there is to know about it.
> The man was a seriously disturbed person who seems to have murdered a > couple of break and enter scum when in no real danger himself. And of > course he was stupid enough to tell all sorts of witnesses including > local police that he was going to do it. Thank God there still people in England who are not afraid to defend themselves. Why wait for them to return, as they no doubt would have done. As I said, one dead Gypo will not be missed.
When I was a child in Coventry, it was not uncommon to read in the local and national newspapers about some little old lady who chased a purse snatcher and in many cases, actually catching up with him and hitting him with her umbrella, or whatever she had available. She was always called a "heroine". Now we are told not to resist and those who do are liable to arrest if the scum are harmed in some way. If a thief should hurt hmself when falling through a hole in the roof or something, he sues the homeowner!! The world is upside down thanks to the idiots who are terrified of calling a spade a spade. I have nothing but contempt for those who refuse to defend themselves or their families against, what can only be called, an attack on their culture and lives. Fight back and don't worry about the lives of those who attack you, they forfeited their rights when they violated yours.
"They gave us the evil eye". Silly jury in the Tony Martin case refrring to the family of the dead Gypo..
Andrew Swallow - 10 Jul 2008 03:21 GMT [snip]
> "They gave us the evil eye". > Silly jury in the Tony Martin case refrring to the family of the dead > Gypo.. Actions like that tell you who was guilty. If he is locked away he cannot attack you.
Andrew Swallow
Zombywoof - 05 Jul 2008 14:10 GMT >> Were the men mistaken for other individuals who were the intended targets? >> >> <http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23506646-details/French+st...> > >Sounds like the Spanish Inquisition And we all know nobody ever expects that.
 Signature "Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
William Black - 04 Jul 2008 22:52 GMT > "Welcome to Labour´s Britain. I would hope when the police find the > murderers the human rights activists will protect them. After all the > students provoked them into this act of self defence! No wonder Canada > wants decent Brits to emigrate. There are not many of them left." > > - Peter Glazier, Sao Paulo, Brazil And how many street kids have the Brazilian police shot today I wonder...
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Nebulous - 04 Jul 2008 23:01 GMT "William Black" <william.black@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message news:g4m636$948
29 November 1494 Judicial proceedings: acts of the lords auditors of causes and complaints [1494/11/10]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
29 November, all the lords auditors sat except [Robert Lyle], lord Lyle and [John Lyon, lord] Glamis
The lords auditors decree and deliver that George Herries of Terraughtie shall content and pay Patrick [Hepburn], earl of Bothwell the sum of 50 merks usual money of Scotland of the rest of a greater sum owed to the said earl for a part of the fruits and duties of the provosts of Lincluden, as was admitted by the said George Herries in the presence of the lords, and ordain that letters be written to distrenzie the said George of his lands and goods for that.
[1494/11/11]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
The lords auditors decree and deliver that John of Shaw of the Haly, as heir of his late grandfather John of Shaw of the Haly, and Quentin Muir of the Aird, the son and heir of the late Quentin Muir of the Aird, shall content and pay Archibald Boyd, brother german of the late Robert Boyd, the sum of £100 usual money of Scotland to the full amount owed him for past terms for the contract of marriage completed between the said Archibald and Christian Muir according to the form of the letters obligatories made by the said late John and Quentin for them and their heirs to the said Archibald for that, shown and produced before the lords, and ordain that letters be written to distrenzie them of their lands and goods for that, subtracting from them the sum of £40 in the said payment admitted [to have been paid] to the said Archibald, and the said John and Quentin were summoned to this action, often called and did not compear.
[1494/11/12]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
The lords auditors decree and deliver that Robert Berton, dwelling in Leith, does wrong in harassing, worrying and disturbing Andrew Mowbray, burgess of Edinburgh, in the use, enjoyment and raising of 5 merks of annual rent yearly owed to him from the said Robert Berton's land and tenement lying in Leith, and [they] therefore ordain the said Robert Berton to desist and cease from that in the future, to be used, enjoyed and raised by the said Andrew yearly according to the form of the charter and sasine made to him for that, shown and produced before the lords. And [the lords] also decree and deliver that the said Robert shall content and pay the said Andrew the sum of 5 merks from the said annual for the terms of last Martinmas [11 November] and Whitsunday [18 May] past before this last term of Martinmas, and ordain that letters be written to put this decreet into execution. And [the lords] appoint 7 December next, with continuation of days, for Islay herald and the said Andrew Mowbray to prove sufficiently the deforcement contained in the summons and his costs and injuries, and ordain them to have letters to summon their witnesses and warn the party to hear them sworn, and [they] continue that part of the summons in the meantime without prejudice of party. And [the lords] also declare that the said Robert has forfeited his warrant in the said matter because he has failed to produce his said warrant at the term appointed for him.
[1494/11/13]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
The lords auditors decree and deliver that John Wallace of Glentig shall content and pay James Muir of Monyhagain the sum of 40 merks usual money of Scotland owed to him by the said John Wallace for certain contracts contained in his obligation made to the said James for that, shown and produced before the lords, and ordain that letters be written to distrenzie the said John Wallace of his lands and goods for that, reserving to him his action against any persons that should relieve him of the said sum because they were not all properly summoned at this time.
[1494/11/14]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
The lords auditors decree and deliver that Hutcheon Wallace of Smithston shall free, relieve and pay John Wallace of Glentig the third part of the sum of 40 merks usual money of Scotland, just as he was bound [to do] by his obligation with the late William Wallace of Craigie, knight, and Adam Wallace of Craigie, under his and their seals, shown and produced before the lords, and ordain that letters be written to distrenzie the said Hutcheon of his lands and goods for the third of the said 40 merks to relieve him of that at the hands of James Muir of Monyhagain, and the said John Wallace has promised to treat his wife and do to her as is fitting by the law of the holy church, and the said Hutcheon was present at this action.
[1494/11/15]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
The lords auditors decree and decree? that Arthur Forbes of Rires shall content and pay Elaine Fleming the sum of £27 12s usual money of Scotland owed by him to the said Elaine for rough hard hides, just as he was bound [to do] by his obligation under his seal, shown and produced before the lords, because the said Arthur took [it upon himself] to prove the said sum was previously paid and failed in his proof at the term appointed to him, and he was summoned to this action, often called and did not compear, and ordain that letters be written to distrenzie the said Arthur of his lands and goods for that.
[1494/11/16]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
William Murray compeared before the lords auditors and protested that because Oliver Sinclair caused him to be summoned to his suit for certain causes etc. and would not compear to pursue him etc, that therefore etc.
Boedicia@isp.com - 07 Jul 2008 06:14 GMT > "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > because Oliver Sinclair caused him to be summoned to his suit for certain > causes etc. and would not compear to pursue him etc, that therefore etc. Have you ever thought of asking for help? It won't cost you anything which, you, being a *cot will appreciate. They can do wonders nowadays for those with mental problems like yours. A few weeks in a nice padded cell with strong bars will do you the world of good.
Zombywoof - 05 Jul 2008 14:24 GMT >> "Welcome to Labour´s Britain. I would hope when the police find the >> murderers the human rights activists will protect them. After all the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >And how many street kids have the Brazilian police shot today I wonder... And exactly why do you wonder? Did you give pause to wonder why they may have degenerated into shooting them? They aren't cute little street urchins from Oliver Twist.
One of the most interesting, and so far overlooked/under commented on aspects of the article was the statement: "Britain's spiral into knife-obsessed lawlessness".
Why isn't it just plain old lawlessness? Why the emphasis on the fact that a "Knife" was used? Is it simply the fact that once handgun possession was made hard enough that the criminals turned to the next best thing, Knives. Now Britain is outlawing/banning Knives as well, but yet the violence continues as well as the magnitude of the brutality. What is next on the hit-parade Cricket Bats, Chair Legs, or Fire Pokers?
All-in-all the only thing that the article shows is how given a will, there will always be a way to commit violence against another. The only & best choice is to give law-abiding people not only the "Right", but the means to protect themselves.
 Signature "Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
Nebulous - 04 Jul 2008 23:00 GMT "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:Kvwbk.33
27 November 1494 [1494/11/1]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Procedure: preamble In the name of God amen, the parliament of the most excellent and most powerful prince our lord, the most dear lord James IV, by the grace of God most illustrious king of Scots, held and begun at Edinburgh in the tolbooth of the same on 27 November 1494 by the lords commissioners having sufficient commission for this, on which day the suits being called [and] the court fenced, the absentees were made public in the rolls of suits.
[1494/11/2]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Committee members: lords auditors of causes and complaints a.. Lords elected to the causes b.. a.. For the clergy b.. [George Brown], bishop of Dunkeld c.. [Robert Ker], abbot of Kelso d.. [James Abercrombie], abbot of Scone e.. [Deleted text]? f.. Official of Lothian, Master William Wawane a.. For the barons b.. [John Lyon], lord Glamis c.. [Robert Lyle], lord Lyle d.. [William Knollis], lord St John e.. John Ogilvy a.. For the commissioners b.. Henry Preston c.. Matthew Wallace d.. Robert Mercer The six persons present gathered together, with [John Fraser], clerk register, etc., seven.
Judicial proceedings: acts of the lords auditors of causes and complaints [1494/11/3]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
All the lords auditors sat except [Robert Ker], abbot of Kelso, [John Lyon], lord Glamis, [Robert Lyle, lord] Lyle and Robert Mercer
In the presence of the lords auditors John Wan, John of Auchinross, bailie of Dumbarton, and Robert Noble, younger, have drawn themselves, their lands and goods caution and surety that the council and community of Dumbarton will support, abide by and submit to what they do in their name.
[1494/11/4]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
In the presence of the lords auditors of causes and complaints it is appointed, agreed and finally concluded and settled between Walter Watson, burgess of Dumbarton, for himself and as procurator for Euphamy Logan, his spouse, and his son, on the one part, and John Wan, John of Auchinross, bailie of Dumbarton, and Robert Noble, younger, for themselves and as procurators for the council and community of the burgh of Dumbarton, and as they who have found caution for the said council and community, on the other part, in the manner and form that follows below, that is to say, both the said parties are bound and obliged, touching the holy Gospels, to support, abide by and submit to the sentence, deliverance and decreet of these undernoted persons or the majority of them, that is to say Andrew Fleming, George Fallisdale, George Fleming, John Lauchtane, William Finnie, Morris Gardener and James Gardener, judges arbitrators, arbiters and amiable compositors, equally chosen by both the said parties, regarding all actions, disagreements and disputes moved by either of the said parties against the others at any time in the past until the day this agreement was made regarding the lands of Howatschaw called Samellis lands, and the corn that grew on the same, and the tearing down of 12 ruids of the dyke of the said Samellis lands, and the tearing down of the pinfold of Akinbar, and therefore the lords ordain that letters be written to charge the said judges arbiters to take the said matter upon themselves and be sworn to it before the bailies of Dumbarton, and to convene in the parish church of Dumbarton between now and the next feast of the nativity of our Lord called Yule [25 December], and to deliver for that between that time and the purification of our Lady called Candlemas [2 February] next, under the charge that may follow after it, and as shall be delivered and decreed by the said judges or the majority of them, both the said parties shall stand content and never go against it under the pain of perjury and infamy and under the pain of £100 to be raised against the party breaker according to the form of the decreets and deliverance previously given for that; and if it happens that any of the said judges to fail through death, it shall be lawful for the rest of the said judges to choose others in their places, with the consent of party.
[1494/11/5]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
The lords auditors decree and deliver that Robert Noble of the Ferme and John of Colquhoun of Camstraddan shall restore, return to and pay Walter Watson and Euphamy Logan, his spouse, three bolls of oats, with the fodder, priced 3s per boll, spulzied and taken by them from an acre of land of the Spittale Land for this last year past, as was sufficiently proven before the lords, and ordain that letters be written to distrenzie the said Robert and John of their lands and goods for that, and they were present at this action through their procurators, and to distrenzie them for 15s for the said Walter's costs of his letters and 5s for his expenses.
[1494/11/6]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
In the presence of the lords auditors Walter Watson agreed, for himself, his wife and son, to hand over the tack of the lands of Spittale Land to the town of Dumbarton when they would obtain a discharge from the leper man from whom he had the said tack.
Tiglath - 05 Jul 2008 03:50 GMT It's enough to make one wish for the availability of guns. The poor souls may have been shot instead and spared the horror of cold steel slicing skin, muscle, and nerve, over and over.
Peter Jason - 05 Jul 2008 05:55 GMT > It's enough to make one wish for the > availability of guns. The poor > souls may have been shot instead and spared > the horror of cold steel > slicing skin, muscle, and nerve, over and > over. Knife attacks are increasing here at the nightclub circuit. On one TV news show one victim with 3 knife wounds in the back (at kidney level), all shown in vivid technicolour and the poor fellow was in considerable agony. At one Asian nightclub a few years ago swords were smuggled in down trouser legs for a subsequent brawl where some participants were chased into the river where they drowned. In my time one went to nightclubs to get laid; these days it's to get dead drunk and brawl.
D. Spencer Hines - 05 Jul 2008 07:15 GMT Somewhat Shocking...
But not overly.
Aussies are well-known as brawlers.
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas Britannicus Traductus Sum ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Knife attacks are increasing here at the nightclub circuit. On one TV > news show one victim with 3 knife wounds in the back (at kidney level), [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > chased into the river where they drowned. In my time one went to > nightclubs to get laid; these days it's to get dead drunk and brawl. Peter Jason - 05 Jul 2008 07:49 GMT It seems worse these days. Probably due to higher population density. CCTV brings it to everybody's notice of course. The Vietnamese seem particularly pugnacious, but they kill each other in their own areas.
> Somewhat Shocking... > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> nightclubs to get laid; these days it's to >> get dead drunk and brawl. Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:42 GMT "Peter Jason" <pj@jostle.com> wrote in message news:g4n5j9
15 March, fifth day of parliament
Item, it is advised, statute and concluded that in the future one council be chosen by the king's highness which shall sit continuously in Edinburgh, or where the king makes his residence, or where it pleases him, to decide all manner of summons and civil matters, complaints and causes, daily as they occur, so that there will not be such great confusion of summons to call at the session, and to begin the?
[1504/3/16]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that there be [a] justice depute for the Isles and sheriffs, and those who are justice and sheriff for the Northern Isles [are] to sit in Inverness or Dingwall, and another justice and sheriff depute [is] to sit in Tarbert or at Loch Kilkerran? for the Southern Isles.
[1504/3/17]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is thought expedient that the lands between Badenoch and Lorn, which are called Duart and Glen Duart, and all the lordship of Lorn, come to Perth, Mamore and Lochaber to Inverness and Argyll, and their justice come and sit in Perth, and hold his justiciary when it pleases the king's grace, where every highland man and lowland man can come and seek justice.
[1504/3/18]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
It is decreed and ordained that the lands between Badenoch and Lorn, which are called Duart and Glen Duart, and also all the lordship of Lorn, come to the justice ayre of Perth, Mamore and Lochaber to Inverness, and that Argyll with its bounds, and the justice sit and hold the justice ayre for it in Perth when it pleases king's grace, so that every highland man and lowland man may come and seek and have justice.
[1504/3/19]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that the part of Cowal that is not within the bounds of [Archibald Campbell], earl of Argyll's justiciary [is to] come to Dunbarton.
[1504/3/20]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that the [justice] ayre of Bute and Arran, Knapdale, Kintyre and Great Cumbrae be held at the burgh of Ayr or Bute at our sovereign lord's pleasure.
[1504/3/21]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that a sheriff be made who shall be sheriff of Ross and he shall have his place to sit in Tain and Dingwall, as required by the cause for which he has to do justice.
[1504/3/22]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that a sheriff be made in Caithness and that [he] shall be called the sheriff of the same, and he shall have jurisdiction over the whole diocese of Caithness, and shall sit for justice in Dornock and Wick, as required by the cause that it is complained about.
[1504/3/23]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained that the justice ayre of all these three sheriffdoms, that is to say Inverness, Ross and Caithness, be held in the town of Inverness.
[1504/3/24]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained that where any person happens to obtain a remission in the future, that the said remission shall not extend to nor save the taker from greater crimes through any general clause than is specially contained, and that the greatest action shall be specified, or else it shall be understood, and that [the] general clause shall not include greater than the special clause.
[1504/3/25]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, as it is pleasing to the king's grace and it is his intention to prevent and stop all slaughter in the future, therefore, by his command, intention and decision, it [is] decreed, ordained and concluded that there be no remission given for slaughter that is committed by premeditated felony, and this statute [is] to last for [the length of] our sovereign lord's will and until he revokes the said article in particular.
[1504/3/26]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, regarding false notaries and others in every diocese, it is thought expedient, decreed and concluded that each bishop summon all the notaries in his diocese and make [an] investigation into their doings and of their faith and loyalty in their offices, and that they receive information on this and punish and deprive those who are false or inadequate, and similarly with those who use instruments incorrectly.
[1504/3/27]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
After noon
Item, regarding recent spulzie, that it shall be lawful for the party who is spulzied to summon the person who spulzied in 15 days before the lords, so that he can make his said summons within the next 15 days following the committing of the said spulzie, despite the act made previously that all summons shall be [made] in 21 days and in the same way before the sheriff, and that there shall be no dilatory exceptions admitted against that summons, it being lawfully endorsed.
[1504/3/28]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, regarding the fees sheriffs or other officers are to take for the execution of their office in the distrenzing of persons for sums and recovered debts, it is advised, decreed and ordained that the said sheriff shall get 12d for each pound for the execution of his office and that is to be taken from the person or persons from whom the sums and debts are being recovered; and as for the fees for their processes of court or courts when they are required to give them out, that for each act and copy of letters they get for each piece only 4d.
[1504/3/29]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, as for the taking of gold and silver out of the [realm], it is advised, decreed and ordained that the acts and statutes previously made for the retention of money in the [realm], with this addition: that it is a point of dittay on those who take the same out [of the realm], and also that the king's highness assigns and ordains certain searchers in every town which is a port who will have the power to search the sailors and travellers leaving the [realm] for exporting money, whatsoever person spiritual or temporal, and that he shall have for his fees the fourth part of the sums that he finds, bringing in the other three that is in the king's use excepting 40s only, which is granted to him previously by act and statutes made for that to cover his fees, and that this regulation and act be made for foreigners and aliens as the king's lieges. And if it can be proven that the said searchers, or any of them, allow any more money to be exported than the said 40s with their knowledge, he shall answer for that with his life and dittay is to be taken on him for that.
[1504/3/30]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, regarding those who steal rabbits, pikes out of ponds, [those who] break dovecotes or orchards, or [those who] steal bee-hives and destroy them, and also for those who kill enclosed deer or roes or roebucks from the lord's own woods, that that be a point of dittay in the future, and that the fine for that be £10 along with compensation for the party according to the injury; and if any children within age commit any of these aforesaid things, because they cannot be punished as they are not of legal age, their fathers or masters will pay 13s and 4d for each one of them each time [they] commit any [of] the aforesaid trespasses or else deliver the said child to the judge to be lashed, scourged and flogged according to his faults.
[1504/3/31]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
?[Deleted text:] Item, regarding beggars, that the statute of King James I [...] beggars be put into swift execution, and that sheriff, provost [...]iis within burghs put the said act into execution immediately under the pain of 1 merk for each beggar, except lame blind people and weak people and weak fo[...]
[1504/3/32]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained regarding bushes and ships to be made for fishing, that the act and statute previously made for that be put into swift and due execution.
[1504/3/33]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, as regards the penalty for [damaging] living woods, because the woods of Scotland are utterly destroyed, the fine being so small, therefore it is decreed and ordained that the fine for [damaging] living woods by any man by selling or burning in the future [is to be] £5, and that both of regality and royalty, and similarly the penalty for muir-burning after March [is to] be £5, the old act for [damaging] living woods by any man by selling or burning remaining in effect concerning [those who] destroy living woods in other ways.
[1504/3/34]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, regarding the killing of kipper, it is decreed and ordained concerning the killing of red fish during the forbidden time that because the small penalty has been the cause and occasion that red fish have been slain in great numbers to the great damage of the country and the common weal, and also as regards those who kill smolt in mill dams, sluices and by netting, thorns and cruives, it is decreed and ordained that in the future the penalty for it for the first time will be £10, for the second time will be £20 and for the third time the forfeiture of their lives for the committer [of the offence]. And it shall be lawful for the barons, both spiritual and temporal, royalty and regality, to proceed and sit for this, and to obtain a penalty from each person convicted of this of 30s in this court. And if any person or persons claims to have the privilege to kill such fish during the forbidden time, by any of the aforesaid ways, that all such privileges cease until they appear before the king and his council to show their said privilege, [so] it may be considered whether such privilege is for the common weal or not.
[1504/3/35]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
[Deleted text:] Item, it is decreed and ordained regarding inn-keepers and lodgings-providers, both in burghs or in the country, because of the great exorbitance in taking overly high and expensive fees for their lodgings, that therefore in the future any persons who lodge and have a horse [and] buy their horse-food from the said inn-keeper who is lodging him, that in such a case they shall receive their bed free, and where the inn-keeper has no horse-food within but buys it from other persons outwith [his inn] and takes no more from them except their beds and the use of vessels for being there, they shall pay for each person the first night 2d, if they remain there longer 1d, and this sum [is] to be paid for entertainment and no more under the pain for the taker to be judged an oppressor and indebted for that. And that the officers, both in burghs and in the country, ensure this statute be kept under the pain of personal punishment.
[1504/3/36]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Memorandum, that it be ordained that all provosts and bailies within any burgh or town, and sheriff, bailie or steward within their bounds, advise with their lodging-providers and inn-keepers within their bounds regarding the lodgings, the honesty of it and the price that shall be paid for it, and the lords justices and commissioners that go to the ayres [are to] call the officers of each town they travel through [in] the country before and advise about the following: what the men [who travel] on foot shall pay, [what] the men on horses shall pay and what he shall pay who is better lodged, and what was [paid] for his lodging.
[1504/3/37]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, regarding the division of the sheriffdoms which are ordained to be divided due to their great size, it is advised, decreed and ordained firstly concerning the sheriffdom of Perth, which has had Culross and Tulliallan and also Clackmannan and all the land between it and Stirling which come to the ayre of Fife, all these [are to] come to the ayre of Stirling in the future, and that Tulliallan and Culross come to the sheriff court of Stirling, and that all the persons who are put to the justice ayre of Stirling pay the penalties both in the sheriff court and justice ayre, just as they paid [them] before this union, and without prejudice to them in that.
Item, that the Lenzie and Larbert, the Broomage and Skathmur, Kippen, Garden and Seabegs, which were previously of the sheriffdoms of Dunbarton, Perth and Edinburgh, be from now on both of the sheriff court and justice ayre of Stirling.
Item, that the lands of Buchanan, Fintry, Campsie, Strathblane, Buthrane, Drymen, Inchcailloch and from there on west [are to] belong to the sheriffdom of Dunbarton, and compear there both at the sheriff court and justice ayre.
[1504/3/38]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained that all towns and ports which are along the seaside, such as Leith, Inverkeithing, Kinghorn, Dysart, Crail and others, sell their common goods on the walls of their town to the sea side with ports of lime and stone.?
[1504/3/39]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, every lord and laird [is to] make enclosures with deer, ponds, rabbit warrens, dovecotes, orchards, hedges and [to] plant at least an acre of wood where there are no large woods or forests.
[1504/3/40]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that all [of] Scotland [is] to hold their wappenschaws annually on Thursday in Whitsunday week [May/June], and that each officer as sheriff, bailie or steward or others see [to it] that this act and statute is kept.
[1504/3/41]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, regarding the exception proposed by inheritors, when they are pursued for their father's or forebears' debts to whom they have succeeded, claiming that their father's moveable goods should pay for their debts and the executors should be called for that before [they inherit], it is advised, decreed and ordained that it shall be lawful for the creditor to pursue the heir after the passage of a year because the executors should be responsible for one year, at the end of which he should give his account, and if it pleases the heir he can and should be diligent and request the ordinary within the said year to seek [the] account for him and he to see the account, and what is found [to be] remaining over of things pertaining to their office that he should request [of] the ordinary that he might have caution and surety for the relief of his inheritance in so far as the goods rest beyond the account, and that the ordinary shall provide him with sufficient caution for that, and so at the end of the year the heir will answer to every creditor.
[1504/3/42]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is advised, decreed and ordained as regards the exception proposed against widows pursuing and following their brieves of terce or the profits of their terces, when it is often proposed against the widows that they were not legal wives of the persons, their husbands, by whom they pursue their said terce, that therefore where the matrimony was not challenged in their lifetimes, that the woman seeking this terce being of good reputation and held as his legal wife during his lifetime shall be terced and use her terce without any impediment or exception to be proposed against her, forever and until it is clearly determined and sentence given that she was not his lawful [wife] and that she should not have a lawful terce for that.
[1504/3/43]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
[Deleted text:] Item, regarding the article made to be advised on touching the bonds of lords and freeholders of this realm for their own lands, bailiaries, offices, steadings and mailings, and for the bringing in of all types of persons who are within their said bounds, it is advised, decreed and concluded that because there is a part of the lords and freeholders of the north side [of] the water of Forth [who are] bound to our sovereign lord for the bringing in of all persons, trespassers staying or present within [their areas of responsibility] to the justice ayres according to the form of their bonds signed by their [own] hands, therefore it is decreed and ordained in this present parliament, for the common weal of the realm, that all the freeholders of the Borders and Highlands, and any other regions in which there may be any rebellion in the future, or any part that pleases that king's highness on the north side of the water of Forth, be bound similarly as those lands which are already bound through statute of parliament, along with those who are bound to bring in all types of criminal persons within their bounds according to the form of the said lords' bond signed by their hands, the tenor of which follows etc. And this statute [is] to last for the lifetime of our sovereign lord and for the lifetime of the said freeholders alone.
[1504/3/44]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained from now on that no baron, freeholder or vassal who is within 100 merks of this extent that is current be compelled to appear in person in parliament, except if it is so that our sovereign particularly requests them, and so as not to be penalised for their absence they send their procurators to answer on their behalf with the barons of shire or the most well-reputed persons, and all who are above the extent of 100 merks are to come to the parliament, under the pain of the old penalty.
[1504/3/45]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that all our sovereign lord's lieges who are under his authority, and in particular all the Isles, be governed by our sovereign lord's own laws and the common laws of the realm, and not by any other laws.
[1504/3/46]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that all officers, provosts, bailies and others who hold the office of administering justice within burghs be changed annually, and that no-one is to have the office of administering justice within burghs except those who engage in trade within the said burgh.
[1504/3/47]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained that in the future all sheriffs, stewards or bailies who give sasine by instruction from our sovereign lord's chapel to any persons, that they write the day and the year that they gave the said sasine and bring the same with them in their court books to the exchequer, and that is because the vassals are greatly disadvantaged through the absence of their overlords and the non-entry to the superiority of their lands after the date of the precept of sasine and raising of the same from the chancellery.
[1504/3/48]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained by our sovereign lord in this his present parliament, with the consent of the three estates of the same, that it shall be lawful for our sovereign lord to set all his own lands, both annexed and unannexed, in feu ferme to any person or persons that he pleases so that it does not reduce his rental, grassums or any other duties, and set with such clauses as our sovereign thinks expedient, and that this statute be of the strength to set their lands in feu perpetually in our sovereign lord's time that now is only, and all that he sets in his time is to last perpetually.
[1504/3/49]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained that it shall be lawful for every lord, baron and freeholder, spiritual or temporal, to set all their lands in feu ferme and annual rent to any person or persons so that it does not reduce their rental, with this condition: that the said alienation be set in feu, albeit they set the most part of their land or all their lands, it shall not do the setter nor the taker any prejudice in any manner of way for the loss of their lands for that alienation, notwithstanding any laws made in the contrary upon alienations.
[1504/3/50]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained for the good of trade and for the great [and] exorbitant expenses they incur for legal actions in parts overseas, that therefore the conservator of this realm [is to] have jurisdiction to do justice amongst the said merchants, our sovereign lord's lieges, that is to say between merchant and merchant in those parts overseas, and the said conservator [is] not to proceed in any matters amongst the said merchants unless there are six of the best and most honest merchants with the best knowledge of the realm who will sit and have power with him, if so many can be found, and if there are not six [to be found], that at least four merchants shall sit with him who will have the same power with him to administer justice. And that no merchant [is to] pursue another before any other judge overseas or do in the contrary to this act under the pain of £5 to be paid to the king by the pursuer and payment of the expenses to the party pursued.
[1504/3/51]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained that the conservator of Scotland shall come home annually, or send a responsible procurator for himself annually, who shall answer every man on all things that they have to say to him for any matters, and inform the king and his council that he will send the said procurator, under the pain of the forfeiture of his office and the payment of £20 in accordance of value to the Flemish groat to the king.
[1504/3/52]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it [is] decreed and ordained that all the malt-makers of Leith, Edinburgh and other places around Edinburgh or other burgh towns within the realm present their malt to the market in the future, and each day [is to] be market day except the holy day, and the same is not to be sold until the ninth hour under the pain of escheat of all malt that is otherwise sold. And that the provost and bailies of every town see [to it] that this statute is kept, and that they have [the] power of escheat [for] the same, and answer to our sovereign lord in his exchequer annually for that no matter whose hand it is found in. And that the malt-makers take no more for the making of one chalder of malt than one boll of barley, and whoever does in the contrary shall be considered oppressors of the king's lieges and dittay [will be] taken for that to the justice ayre.
[1504/3/53]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained that because in the past there has been great abuse in the proposal of frivolous exceptions against brieves of inquest by subverting its order and nature, as [if] they were brieves of legal action, therefore, in order to avoid such frivolous exceptions in the future, it is decreed and ordained that no exception will be of value against the said brieve of inquest [once] it has been publicly settled for 15 days with the endorsement of the officer who called it, containing two witnesses and his seal or signet, except for these following exceptions only: that is to say, against the judge, against the inquest and the exception of bastardry, and that [is] to be proposed in the form of old law. And as regards the exception made for the summoning of the inquest for 15 days before according to the form of the statute of King Robert, which makes mention that the inquest should be summoned for 15 days before it shall be lawful, despite the said statute, [it is] to the sheriff or any other officer who is judge for the brieve of inquest to summon the said inquest for whatever days it pleases him or for whatever shorter time, despite the said statute, and also if they are present in the tolbooth unsummoned so that there can be no other lawful exception against them, it shall be lawful for the sheriff or officer to compel them to pass on the said inquest. And further, because there has been abuse in the calling of the king's brieves in stewartries and bailiaries where they were proclaimed on a hill without a gathering of people being there, so there was no way that knowledge of [the brieve] could reach the party, therefore it is decreed and ordained that all types of brieves of inquest shall be called at the market cross of the main burgh publicly in full market when the largest number of people is gathered, so that the calling of [brieves] may be known to the party defending and where it should be served and on which day; and that the said brieve be called three times in public together and between each call there [should be] time for all three proclamations; and that officers of the town be warned to compear at the said proclamation to bear witness. And if it happens that the predecessor of anyone claiming right dies too close to the term of Whitsunday [May/June] or Martinmas [11 November], that the pursuer can not proclaim it on a market day due to the proximity of the term of Whitsunday and Martinmas, in that case it shall be lawful for him to cause his brieve to be proclaimed on any week day, so that he has the officers of the town and some of the honest persons [of the town] numbering six people, saving for our sovereign his warning of 40 days according to old habit and custom.
[1504/3/54]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that no markets or fairs be held on holy days or within churches and churchyards on holy days or other days, under the pain of escheat of goods.
[1504/3/55]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained that all the merchants of the realm and the burghs use and have their old freedoms and privileges [which were] granted and given to them by our sovereign lord's progenitors, of most noble memory, [to] be observed and kept for them, and that no person dwelling outwith the burghs [is to] engage in any trade or to tap or sell wine, wax, silk, spices, dye or similar stuff, or staple goods, and that no-one [is to] pack or unpack [goods] in Leith or other places outwith the king's burghs, under the pain of escheat of the goods for the king's use that are tapped, sold, packed or unpacked against this statute.
[1504/3/56]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
[Deleted text:] Item, that no craftsman may use his skill and trade together within a burgh from now on, under the pain [...]
[1504/3/57]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that the commissioners and chiefs of burghs be warned when taxes or contributions are given, to have their votes as one of the three estates of the realm.
[1504/3/58]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
[Deleted text:] Item, that all privileges granted to the burghs previously regarding the selling and using of trade be observed and kept for them in all points as [...]
[1504/3/59]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that provosts, aldermen or bailies do not make burgesses without the advice and consent of the great council of the town, and that the profit taken for making each burgess be put to the common good and disbursed on the common works
[1504/3/60]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed regarding the good of trade that the old act concerning sailors be swiftly put into execution, and the customs officers show the officer of the town who does in the contrary, and that the said officers ensure this act be put into due execution as they will answer to the king.
[1504/3/61]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that no fellow-workers, craftsmen or gentlemen burgesses or inhabitants in the burgh go against the authority of the king's officers chosen in the burghs, or make leagues or bonds against the same, under the pains contained in the laws and statutes of the burgh.
[1504/3/62]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, that no-one [is to] store wool, hides or animal skins in Leith or in other places outwith free burghs in order to keep the king's customs coming in complete as is fitting.
[1504/3/63]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, regarding lands and baronies which lie in several sheriffdoms that are annexed or united into one holding or barony, that, despite the said annexation or union, the persons [who] inhabit the said annexed lands shall abide the law before the sheriff or steward or bailie and justice where the said annexed lands lie, despite the said annexation and union.
[1504/3/64]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained regarding the importing of bullion [...]?
[1504/3/65]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained [that] because there has been great abuse of justice and great expenses incurred by the parties pursuing their lands and inheritance by the brieve of right and other brieves that may be sued by proposing frivolous exceptions and sureties and counter-pledges and falsing of dooms, that therefore in the future where any doom is falsed either through dilatory or peremptory exceptions or otherwise in the pursuit of the brieve of right, the party that falses the said doom before the sheriff, steward, bailie, any other officer or their deputies shall compear before the justice clerk within the period of 15 days and present his process of the falsing of the said doom, and with the advice of our sovereign lord or his justice a justice ayre shall immediately thereafter be set for discussing and closing the said falsed doom within 40 days and the justice, [either] through his precept or by summoning directly the sheriff, shall warn both the parties of the said day appointed for the discussing of the said doom. And the freeholders and suitors shall attend the said justice ayre within the sheriffdom or stewartry where the said doom shall be discussed and ward there under the pain of the penalty of the court, and if the said doom is falsed in the justice ayre concerning the said brieve or if there are any other brieves which may be sued presented to the justice, and the doom happens to be false in their pursuit similarly after the falsing of that doom within 15 days after that, the party that falses the doom shall appear before the clerk register and our sovereign lord's council and present his process of falsing of doom, and after that the said clerk of council shall show the same to our sovereign lord who shall depute 30 or 40 persons, or more or fewer as [it] pleases his highness, who shall have the [same] power as [if] it were in a parliament to decide and discuss the said doom. And the parties [are] to be warned by our sovereign lord's letters for the appointed day for the discussing of the said doom, which shall be set on 40 days, within which time it will be lawful to any of the parties to give in their reasons. And if there is a doom falsed before the provost and bailies within the burgh or before a baron or other freeholder, the falsing party of the said doom shall similarly appear if it is falsed within the burgh to the chamberlain and present to him the process of falsing of the said doom, who shall set a court of the four burghs on 40 days and ensure the said doom be discussed, and similarly where the doom is falsed before the baron or freeholder in their courts, then the falser of the said doom shall appear before the sheriff or another immediate superior of that court who will set his court on 40 days and ensure the said doom be discussed and warn the parties of it, and cause the suitors of the sheriffdom to ward thereupon. And if it is falsed in the said courts of four burghs or in the sheriff court, [it is] to have the same process in the immediate superior court as is noted above. And the parties [are] to have the privilege to give in their reasons any time before the day appointed for discussing the said dooms, and this [is] to have process in all manner of falsed dooms, as well as brieves and other civil matters.
[1504/3/66]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained that all measures and weights, such as pint, quart, firlot, peck, elwand,? stone and pound, be of one quantity and measure, which will be ordained in Edinburgh by our sovereign and his chamberlain [and] council, and that every burgh [is to] come and fetch these measures from Edinburgh, sealed and made, and keep [to] the same. And where there are any fermes owed in inheritance of the old measure, that the said fermes be proportionate to the quantity of the old measure and paid in proportion with the new measure to the value of the old measure. And if any persons use any other measures or weights in the future except the measures and weights that are now to be made, as is said, it shall be a point of dittay and they [are] to be indicted for that from now on.
[1504/3/67]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, regarding the importing of bullion, that it is decreed and ordained that the old acts and statutes for that be put into execution and observed and kept, and the customs officers [are to] receive the said bullion from the merchants and give an account of it in the exchequer.
[1504/3/68]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed [and] ordained that because there is and has been much doubt and refusal to accept the money which has course in the realm, it being either cracked or flawed, therefore in the future no-one is to refuse to accept any money, silver or gold, for their merchandise which has course in this realm despite it being either cracked or flawed, with certification that whoever acts against this will forfeit the silver they refuse [to accept] to be escheated to the king, and the buyer is to receive the goods that he would have bought with the said money.
[1504/3/69]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Item, it is decreed and ordained that in the future no sheriff or officer [is to] poind or distrenzie the oxen, horses or other goods pertaining to the plough which works the ground at the time the same is being worked, where any other goods or lands are to be appraised and poinded according to common law.
[1504/3/70]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
It is decreed and ordained that the words of falsing of dooms be changed in this manner: that where any party thinks him[self] hurt he shall use these words, 'I am greatly hurt and injured by the said doom, therefore I appeal and find security in the officer's hand of the court to pursue the said appeal according to the law made previously and within the time, just as is contained in the said law of the realm'.?
Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:41 GMT "D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message news:nkEbk.35
udicial proceedings: processes of treason [1504/3/11]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
Witnesses to the summons of John MacLean of Lochbuie and the summons of Lauchlan MacLean of Duart and Ewan, son of Allan [Cameron of Lochiel], for treason etc., and they swore oaths in the presence of parliament:
a.. Walter Dempster b.. Thomas Copeland c.. William Haldane d.. John Cuthbert [1504/3/12]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
On which day Master James Henderson presented three letters of summons of treason, that is to say, one for John MacLean of Lochbuie, another for Lauchlan MacLean of Duart and the third for Ewan, son of Allan [Cameron of Lochiel], the tenor of which summons, along with the execution and endorsement of the same, follows; and the execution of the said summons was proven by the seal of Gilpatrick Cor and the four aforenoted witnesses.
[1504/3/13]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
On which day the said three summons of treason were continued until Saturday 16 March current in the same form, force and effect as they were and are now, with continuation of days and hours.
Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:41 GMT "Peter Jason" <pj@jostle.com> wrote in message
Legislation [1504/3/6]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
On which day our sovereign lord ratified, approved and, by the authority of parliament, confirmed the donation and gift of our sovereign lady, the queen's dowry and morning-gift,? according to the form of the charters etc. At the eleventh hour.
[1504/3/7]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
On which day our sovereign lord, with the authority of parliament, dissolved the annexation of the church of Kirkandrews from the lord of Galloway and his crown to the priory of Whithorn, there to remain in the future in full for Kirkinner to be annexed to the chapel royal etc., for which Master James Henderson, advocate to the king, and [George Vaus], bishop of Galloway requested instruments etc. At the eleventh hour.
[1504/3/8]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
On which day our sovereign lord revoked, with the consent of the three estates of parliament, all donations, gifts, acts, statutes of parliament or general council, and all other things made by him in the past, either hurting his soul, his crown or the holy church, and the said said donations, gifts, acts, statutes or other things thus revoked [are to] be had as not made and [are] to be removed from the books and writings.
[1504/3/9]*[print] [email] [cite] [preceding] [following]
On which day our sovereign lord, with the authority of parliament, ratifies and approves the establishing and infeftments made to the college of Stirling, called his chapel royal, both of the churches, prebends, chanonries and lands and the unions of the same, according to the form of foundation, writs and evidence made for that, despite any annexations or union previously made of the said lands, prebends or churches.
Nebulous - 05 Jul 2008 08:40 GMT "Tiglath" <temp5@tiglath.net> wrote in message news:d5232e99-29df-4e47-a60e- ommittee members: lords of the articles a.. The lords of the articles b.. [Robert Blackadder], archbishop of Glasgow c.. [George Brown, bishop of] Dunkeld d.. [William Elphinstone, bishop of] Aberdeen e.. [Andrew Forman, bishop of] Moray f.. [Robert Cockburn, bishop of] Ross g.. [David Arnott], abbot of Cambuskenneth a.. For the barons b.. [Alexander Gordon, earl of] Huntly c.. [Archibald Campbell, earl of] Argyll d.. [Patrick Hepburn, earl of] Bothwell e.. [Matthew Stewart, earl of] Lennox f.. [Alexander Home, lord] Home g.. [Andrew Gray, lord] Gray a.. Burgesses b.. Alexander Lands, provost of Edinburgh c.. Alexander Menzies, provost of Aberdeen d.. James Rollock, provost of Dundee e.. Robert Bruce for Stirling f.. William Carmichael for Edinburgh g.. George of Touris [for Edinburgh] h.. Nicol MacBrair, alderman of Dumfries
Ed Stasiak - 05 Jul 2008 15:51 GMT > Tiglath > > It's enough to make one wish for the availability of guns. The poor > souls may have been shot instead and spared the horror of cold steel > slicing skin, muscle, and nerve, over and over. Thou it's suggested in the article that the victim made the mistake of opening the door without checking to see who was knocking, (expecting his friend) which allowed the murderers to push their way in. So even if the victim had had a firearm in the apartment, he probably wouldn't have been able to get to it in time.
None the less, everybody (especially Brits) ought to remember that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away....
Gernot Hassenpflug - 07 Jul 2008 02:33 GMT >> Tiglath >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > way in. So even if the victim had had a firearm in the apartment, > he probably wouldn't have been able to get to it in time. A sobering thought. Lack of imagination is probably a major hazard for most of us in self-defence situations---we simply do not imagine what possible scenarios could arise. And why should we, the chances are so minute that to worry about that on a daily basis would be lunatic. However, some ground rules should be developed by everyone that respects their own life enough that are robust enough that the primitive instincts can be channelled into action when necessary without being at the surface all the time.
The one poor student was stabbed another 82 times *after* he was dead. It is a bit hard to imagine the rationale of the murderers for such actions. If the motive was to get, say, the PIN numbers, and survive the encounter, the rational thing would be to get out as quickly as possible (firebombing to destroy the evidence) and not stick around for senseless stuff.... the most dangerous are those whose motives cannot be guessed at, so they are more difficult to defend against.
> None the less, everybody (especially Brits) ought to remember > that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.... Indeed. Very good to keep that in mind: you're on your own, and no amount of pretending otherwise is going to change that sad and forlorn fact---so there cannot be any instant of hesitation when the senses tell one the need for desperately violent self-defence action.
 Signature BOFH excuse #149:
Dew on the telephone lines.
Boedicia@isp.com - 07 Jul 2008 06:19 GMT > > Tiglath > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > None the less, everybody (especially Brits) ought to remember > that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.... The present Mayor of London has advised people *not* to fight back. Too bad he wasn't around in 1939, the Krauts could just have walked in without firing a shot. However, one must make excuses for The Mayor, since he really isn't a "real' Englishman, he's part Turk, part jew and God knows what else and it shows.
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