Women Officers & Swords In The Royal Navy
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D. Spencer Hines - 05 Aug 2008 17:45 GMT Sounds eminently reasonable...
Skirts for the formal ceremony of graduation into the Royal Navy as commissioned officers -- then trousers once in the fleet and operational...
Sound decision by their Lordships.
 Signature DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor
> With the abolition of the WRNS, and the full integration of women into the > RN, the problem had arisen, and this was the decree: only at the > passing-out parade at Dartmouth would a sword be worn with a skirt, on > all other occasions it would be worn with trousers! Vincent Brannigan - 05 Aug 2008 18:10 GMT > Sounds eminently reasonable... > > Skirts for the formal ceremony of graduation into the Royal Navy as > commissioned officers -- then trousers once in the fleet and operational... > > Sound decision by their Lordships. I'm sure the men look good in the skirts
Vince
Raymond O'Hara - 05 Aug 2008 21:37 GMT >> Sounds eminently reasonable... >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Vince its england, skirt wearing is common among men. after all what is a kilt? it's a skirt.
Roger Conroy - 05 Aug 2008 21:46 GMT >>> Sounds eminently reasonable... >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > its england, skirt wearing is common among men. > after all what is a kilt? it's a skirt. You really do not want to repeat that in a Highland Regiment mess. Trust me, it could be a painful experience for you.
BTW Kilts are not worn nearly as often in England as they are in Scotland.
Vincent Brannigan - 05 Aug 2008 21:59 GMT >>>> Sounds eminently reasonable... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > BTW Kilts are not worn nearly as often in England as they are in Scotland. I once met some very very tough looking men wearing sarongs
so I don't ever cal them skirts
Vince
D. Spencer Hines - 05 Aug 2008 22:04 GMT D'accord.
He's liable to wind up buried in a peat bog -- or dumped out to sea.
 Signature DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor
>>>> Sounds eminently reasonable... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > BTW Kilts are not worn nearly as often in England as they are in Scotland. guy - 06 Aug 2008 11:39 GMT > >> Sounds eminently reasonable... > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > its england, skirt wearing is common among men. > after all what is a kilt? it's a skirt. Really? how many Englishmen wear kilts?
Guy
Raymond O'Hara - 06 Aug 2008 19:18 GMT >> >> Sounds eminently reasonable... >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Guy that prince guy, errr what's his name, hmmm Prince Tampon, yeah that's it. the guy who'll never be king because momma won't die.
Raymond O'Hara - 06 Aug 2008 19:18 GMT >> >> Sounds eminently reasonable... >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Guy that prince guy, errr what's his name, hmmm Prince Tampon, yeah that's it. the guy who'll never be king because momma won't die.
Vincent Brannigan - 06 Aug 2008 19:41 GMT >>>>> Sounds eminently reasonable... >>>>> Skirts for the formal ceremony of graduation into the Royal Navy as [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > that prince guy, errr what's his name, hmmm Prince Tampon, yeah that's it. > the guy who'll never be king because momma won't die. oh you mean "Barmy Prince Charlie"
I think it's only when he is play-acting as a faux Scotsman
Vince
William Black - 06 Aug 2008 20:18 GMT >>>>>> Sounds eminently reasonable... >>>>>> Skirts for the formal ceremony of graduation into the Royal Navy as [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I think it's only when he is play-acting as a faux Scotsman Wasn't his granny a Scot?
And I think he has a house there, in fact I have a suspicion he owns a measureable proportion of the place...
Oh yes, and he's also 'Lord of the Isles'...
All of which makes him a sight more Scottish than me, and at least three clans are busy telling me, via emails now and again, that not only do I belong to them but they'll sell me a kilt with 'my' tartan on it to prove it...
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
Vincent Brannigan - 06 Aug 2008 20:48 GMT >>>>>>> Sounds eminently reasonable... >>>>>>> Skirts for the formal ceremony of graduation into the Royal Navy as [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > belong to them but they'll sell me a kilt with 'my' tartan on it to prove > it... My wife is an Irish citizen She is as Irish as Pâté's pig There is "De Facto" and "De Jure"
Vince
William Black - 06 Aug 2008 21:20 GMT > My wife is an Irish citizen > She is as Irish as Pâté's pig > There is "De Facto" and "De Jure" Well yes, exactly, and I have papers proving that I'm a 'Person of Indian Origin', despite not having a single Indian ancestor.
However I am undoubtedly a citizen of the United Kingdom and have the right to live anywhere in Scotland, and people who may well know what they're talking about say I'm Scottish, or at least, that any money I have may be spent there...
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
R.C. Payne - 07 Aug 2008 11:37 GMT >>>>>>>Sounds eminently reasonable... >>>>>>>Skirts for the formal ceremony of graduation into the Royal Navy as [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Oh yes, and he's also 'Lord of the Isles'... Not to mention Duke of Rothesay
> All of which makes him a sight more Scottish than me, and at least three > clans are busy telling me, via emails now and again, that not only do I > belong to them but they'll sell me a kilt with 'my' tartan on it to prove > it... I suspect he's more Scottish than a whole lot of men who dress up in skirts and claim Scottish herritage.
Robin
Paul J. Adam - 05 Aug 2008 23:24 GMT >> Sounds eminently reasonable... >> Skirts for the formal ceremony of graduation into the Royal Navy as >> commissioned officers -- then trousers once in the fleet and operational... >> Sound decision by their Lordships. > >I'm sure the men look good in the skirts The detailed RNTM on exactly what hosiery the men should wear with their skirts (many are holding out for proper stockings, sheer but seamed, supported by a good suspender belt - though I gather the infighting in MoD Main about the merits of Cuban heels has become quite bloody), whether leg hair should be removed, and the officially approved method for doing so (shaving? waxing? angle grinder? flamethrower?) is keenly awaited.
Poor Hines has his timing wrong, too. In the RNR you're still a midshipman or Acting Sublieutenant (age dependent - you're a middie below 20, an A/SLt after that) even after you pass out from Dartmouth. You don't hold substantive rank and cannot apply for a commissioning scroll until you then pass Fleet Board, which is the modern version of Hornblower's "lieutenant's examination" - though I don't think you have to calculate and draw a rhumb line to order any more, thank the deities of choice.
 Signature The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides
paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
Roger Conroy - 06 Aug 2008 07:33 GMT >>> Sounds eminently reasonable... >>> Skirts for the formal ceremony of graduation into the Royal Navy as [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > "lieutenant's examination" - though I don't think you have to calculate > and draw a rhumb line to order any more, thank the deities of choice. Naturally the "deity of choice" would be Neptune.
J A - 05 Aug 2008 23:19 GMT > Sounds eminently reasonable... Most would prefer being issued vibrators.
William Black - 06 Aug 2008 11:38 GMT >> Sounds eminently reasonable... > > Most would prefer being issued vibrators. You haven't met many ladies who areRN officers then...
 Signature William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea.
J A - 07 Aug 2008 00:17 GMT >>> Sounds eminently reasonable... >> >> Most would prefer being issued vibrators. > > You haven't met many ladies who areRN officers then... Great job in Basra.
Paul J. Adam - 07 Aug 2008 10:45 GMT >> You haven't met many ladies who areRN officers then... > >Great job in Basra. It was, wasn't it? Iraqis taking over security, Jaish al-Mahdi falling apart, al-Sadr marginalised.
Took time to plan and organise, but it worked...
 Signature The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides
paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
J A - 07 Aug 2008 23:05 GMT >>> You haven't met many ladies who areRN officers then... >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Took time to plan and organise, but it worked... LOL.
From 2003, they let shiia militia/gangs run rampant in the area, tapping off large amounts of oil production and terrorizing women who didn't dress like like 14th century troglodytes.
Then, recently, when Maliki made his move to correct the situation:
From BBC website.
Did Britain make Mehdi Army pact?
UK troops were deployed a week after the offensive began
The British in Basra made a secret pact with the Mehdi Army which kept the military out of March's Iraqi-led offensive against the Shia militia for a week, according to the Times newspaper.
The BBC's Crispin Thorold, in Baghdad, assesses whether such an "accommodation" could have been possible.
=== BBC 6 Aug 2008
The Army has admitted making a secret deal with a Shia militia which killed dozens of British service personnel in Iraq.
Paul J. Adam - 08 Aug 2008 00:17 GMT >>>> You haven't met many ladies who areRN officers then... >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >LOL. No, fact...
>From 2003, they let shiia militia/gangs run rampant in the area, tapping off >large amounts of oil production and terrorizing women who didn't dress like >like 14th century troglodytes. Like the rest of Iraq, you mean?
>Then, recently, when Maliki made his move to correct the situation: > >From BBC website. > >Did Britain make Mehdi Army pact? And the answer is "no".
+++++ <http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/2506222/Des-B rowne-in-political-row-over-secret-deal-in-Basra.html>
The Defence Secretary angrily denied reports that a secret agreement with the Iranian-backed Mahdi Army meant British troops stood by in March as Iraqi and US forces fought for control of the Iraqi city.
US and Iraqi officers were quoted as saying that a "pact" with the militia had kept the British forces out of Operation Charge of the Knights.
Mr Browne told MPs in April that British tanks, armoured vehicles and artillery all took part in the operation. The MoD added that Tornado warplanes and UK medical evacuation facilities were also used.
The MoD said: "Suggestions that UK forces failed to get involved in the recent operation against militias in Basra are inaccurate. No 'secret deal' or 'accommodation' kept us out of the city."
...
Privately, British commanders admitted that they had been "caught on the hop" by the Iraqi-led operation into Basra last time which given them 48 hours in which to react.
But they insisted that from the outset British artillery pounded insurgent positions and Tornado fighters were used in a close air support role to provide back-up for Iraqi forces.
British helicopters were also used to ferry Iraqi wounded and supplies were ferried into the city. An armoured cordon of Challenger 2 tanks and Warrior armoured vehicle also covered key entry points into Basra.
"The reason we didn't want to put British troops on the ground was because we had to have an Iraqi face on the operation," a military source said. "If British troops had been deployed into Basra it would not have worked and we would not have the stability in the city that we see now because this had to be an Iraqi led operation." +++++
But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good whine...
 Signature The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides
paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
J A - 08 Aug 2008 00:57 GMT >>>>> You haven't met many ladies who areRN officers then... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > And the answer is "no". Then why did US troops have to come in and back them up?
> +++++ > <http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/2506222/Des-B [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good whine... Paul J. Adam - 08 Aug 2008 08:49 GMT >> And the answer is "no". > >Then why did US troops have to come in and back them up? They didn't. Try finding out what actually happened.
"American soldiers appeared first on the ground in Basra because their mentors were already "embedded" with the Iraqi 1st Division when it deployed to the city as a quick reaction force. "
It was an Iraqi-led operation - as appropriate because the province is under Iraqi control - and the real issue was the powerplay between Maliki and Mohan.
None of this is hard to find out...
 Signature The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides
paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
J A - 08 Aug 2008 23:16 GMT >>> And the answer is "no". >> >>Then why did US troops have to come in and back them up? > > They didn't. Try finding out what actually happened. LOL. THAT IS BULLSHIT.
It doesn't show much wit, to lie about things that have a lot of coverage, particularly coverage from the BBC.
And don't bother trying to foist British ministry of defense denials on this matter as being credible.
From BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7543187.stm
[re. Maliki offensive into militia and gang dominated Basra ]
The American military though was not as slow to respond.
Their extensive involvement in the battle for Basra was revealed by the BBC in April 2008.
It is now clear that 1,000 American soldiers were on the streets of the city within 48 hours.
Compare that to the British response.
The US military is said to be "slightly at a loss with the British".
There is a perception among some Americans that the decisions that were taken were a direct result of an "accommodation" with the militias.
Either way the military consequences are now being seen in Basra.
"There are a lot of discrete American units operating in the city", said a military intelligence source
=== Entire article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7543187.stm
Did Britain make Mehdi Army pact?
UK troops were deployed a week after the offensive began
The British in Basra made a secret pact with the Mehdi Army which kept the military out of March's Iraqi-led offensive against the Shia militia for a week, according to the Times newspaper.
The BBC's Crispin Thorold, in Baghdad, assesses whether such an "accommodation" could have been possible.
In March this year the Iraqi security forces launched a major offensive against the Mehdi Army, a Shia militia, in Iraq's second city Basra. From the beginning the British described that operation as "Iraqi planned, led and executed".
But once again questions are being asked about why the British were so slow to put their troops on the ground in the city.
From the earliest hours of the Iraqi military operations in Basra it was clear that things were not going according to plan.
MoD denial
The resistance by Shia militiamen was much stronger than had been anticipated.
Yet British troops were only deployed from Basra's airport into the city after nearly a week of fighting.
Could that decision have been dictated by a secret deal between the British and the Mehdi Army, as suggested by the Times?
The newspaper has claimed that UK troops initially stayed out of the battle because of a pre-arranged "accommodation" with the Mehdi Army - denied flatly by the Ministry of Defence.
They were on the streets by 1 April when they had turned the training mission into a support mission
Major Tom Holloway
However, closer examination of the British relationship with the militias in Basra shows that such a deal could have been possible.
Military intelligence sources have told the BBC that the British have been talking to Shia militias including the Mehdi Army for several years.
At times the frequency of the talks have declined, like during the Shia uprising in 2004.
More recently there appear to have been specific deals between the two sides.
Ali al-Salman, a senior commander of the Mehdi Army in Basra told the BBC that he attended three meetings with a "British army officer and a British 'civilian' between 8 February and 10 February 2007".
According to the militia commander, a colonel from the Iraqi Army, and Ahmad Al-Fartusi, another member of the Mehdi Army who had been detained by the British, were also present.
'Prisoners released'
Our attempts to find Ahmad al-Fartusi, who is now in hiding, have been unsuccessful. The Iraqi Army refused to comment.
Ali al-Salman claims that under the terms of the deal 60 Shia prisoners were released, the British agreed to stop patrolling in Basra and the Mehdi Army agreed not to attack the British headquarters in the city.
The Mehdi Army commander argues that the British "didn't keep their part of the bargain as [in April 2008] they participated in military operations in Basra".
The command has to maintain morale. It can't be seen to do a deal with people who have killed soldier's mates
BBC source
A British military spokesman in Basra refused to discuss the details of any negotiations with any party.
"Nothing of that nature affected movement into the city", said Major Tom Holloway.
If there were any sort of accommodation between the Mehdi Army and the British army the details are unlikely to have been widely disseminated.
"If the delay in fighting in March/April 2008 was due to a deal the only people who would have known would have been the defence minister, the defence chief, a very senior commander in the field and some planners," said a British military intelligence source.
"The command has to maintain morale. It can't be seen to do a deal with people who have killed soldier's mates. That would make the government as popular as a bag of puke," said the source.
Whatever the truth there are still serious questions about why the British took so long to support the Iraqi army when they were on the back-foot.
"British forces in Basra were postured for training," said Major Tom Holloway, the British military spokesman in Basra.
"They were on the streets by 1 April when they had turned the training mission into a support mission."
Political reluctance?
Observers reject that outright.
There are more than 4,000 British forces in the Basra airport, including three or four infantry battle groups.
Even at a conservative estimate that would mean 1,800 British soldiers would be ready to fight.
Could the delay have been due to a political reluctance in Whitehall for British soldiers to be embroiled in an Iraqi fight just months after the British had handed over security control of the province?
Again the answer to that is unclear.
The 60,000-strong Mehdi Army was created in 2003
The American military though was not as slow to respond.
Their extensive involvement in the battle for Basra was revealed by the BBC in April 2008.
It is now clear that 1,000 American soldiers were on the streets of the city within 48 hours.
Compare that to the British response.
The US military is said to be "slightly at a loss with the British".
There is a perception among some Americans that the decisions that were taken were a direct result of an "accommodation" with the militias.
Either way the military consequences are now being seen in Basra.
"There are a lot of discrete American units operating in the city", said a military intelligence source.
"They are considering sending as many as 15,000 troops down there". ===
BBC Wednesday, 26 March 2008, 00:41 GMT
Iraq forces battle Basra militias
Iraqi PM Nouri Maliki is in Basra supervising the operation
The UK military returned control of Basra to the Iraqis in December and concentrated its forces at the city airport.
The Iraqi commander in charge, Lt Gen Ali Ghaidan, said the operation aimed to purge Basra of what he called "outlaws".
Moqtada Sadr has threatened "general civil disobedience"
He said his forces had confiscated weapons and roadside bombs during raids across Iraq's second city.
Routes into Basra have been sealed off, according to reports.
One resident of the city told the BBC: "The streets are very dangerous, there's continuous exchange of fire in areas very close to my house, even though my neighbourhood is relatively safer than others."
The BBC's Paul Wood says the fighting in Basra can be seen as the government trying to impose law and order but also as part of the power struggle within the Shia community.
He says such intra-Shia violence could be just as dangerous to hopes of peace as sectarian hatreds or the insurgency.
Curfew
The offensive comes a day after the authorities in Basra imposed an indefinite night-time curfew.
Police have now also imposed curfews in the cities of Kut, Samawa, Nasiriyah, Hilla and Diwaniyah.
Moqtada Sadr called for "general civil disobedience in Baghdad and the Iraqi provinces" if the attacks did not end.
In Sadr City, Mehdi Army fighters reportedly ordered Iraqi police and soldiers out of the district and there have been clashes between rival militias.
Hundreds of protesters marched in the Iraqi capital, calling on shops to shut.
The Mehdi Army also took control of several areas in Kut, 175km (110 miles) south-east of Baghdad.
Moqtada Sadr last month renewed the group's ceasefire, under which it pledged not to attack rival armed groups or American forces in Iraq.
But the truce is said to have come under strain in recent weeks as US and Iraqi forces detained militia members.
Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari told the BBC: "Militias have taken over almost the city and law and order has collapsed, although it is not a hopeless case because the government is taking measures to reverse the situation.
"Remember, Basra is the lifeline of Iraq. Most of Iraq's oil exports go through Basra."
===== <snip obfuscations>
D. Spencer Hines - 09 Aug 2008 00:07 GMT Bottom Line...
Bad Show...
By the British in Basra.
 Signature DSH Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor
Paul J. Adam - 09 Aug 2008 10:07 GMT >> They didn't. Try finding out what actually happened. > >LOL. THAT IS BULLSHIT. No, it isn't.
>It doesn't show much wit, to lie about things that have a lot of coverage, >particularly coverage >from the BBC. If it's on the BBC it must automatically be true?
You need to think a little more. Just because you like a story, doesn't mean it's true...
>And don't bother trying to foist British ministry of defense denials on this >matter as being credible. Because of course the BBC knows more about what's going on than the MoD?
I can't help it if the facts disagree with your chosen interpretation.
>The American military though was not as slow to respond. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >It is now clear that 1,000 American soldiers were on the streets of the city >within 48 hours. Because they were attached to the Iraqi Army units that were sent in (by Maliki).
>Compare that to the British response. Artillery, airstrikes, armoured roadblocks - yep, no reaction at all.
>The US military is said to be "slightly at a loss with the British". By who, precisely? Anyone in MNF-I willing to put their name to that?
>There is a perception among some Americans that the decisions that were >taken were a direct result of an "accommodation" with the militias. And that perception is incorrect.
>Either way the military consequences are now being seen in Basra. They are indeed. But not in the ways you claim... (seen many JAM strutting the streets since Charge of the Knights?)
The facts are really quite simple. Charge of the Knights was started ahead of schedule by Baghdad, and Maliki tried to cut his local Army commander out of the loop for political reasons: that caused some delay in backing up the first stumbles in CotK, but not enough to prevent the operation being very successful. Some newsie got what sounded like a great story from Maliki's mob, tried to spin a story, and had to fall back on the time-honoured dodges of nameless sources and unattributable briefings.
It's a traditional game, and it's only about Iraqi politics.
 Signature The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides
paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
Singanas@Texasgulfcoast - 09 Aug 2008 12:35 GMT > In message <U9ydnU7MM9MkWAHVnZ2dnUVZ_rjin...@earthlink.com>, J A > <a...@re.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If Commander Hines is going to make the judgement that the Brits made a bad show in the "Basra Intervention," then somebody ought to write a book about the battle for Basra.
This thread implies that the Basra battle was a turning point for the Maliki government. If so, then the world needs a replay of the event by an authentic Arabic speaking historian and not by an armchair Colonel Blimp.
If there are a hundred tomes about Gettysburg, then we should have a dozen chronicles analysing the Basra labyrinth which was a religious struggle as well as a political cauldron.
Cheers, David H on the Third coast ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
La N - 09 Aug 2008 15:53 GMT >> In message <U9ydnU7MM9MkWAHVnZ2dnUVZ_rjin...@earthlink.com>, J A >> <a...@re.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > Cheers, David H on the Third coast > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There have been so many American right wingers complaining of Brit performance in Iraq, that I wouldn't blame the Brits for demanding to be pulled out of the coalition and not have to sacrifice any more young lives.
- nilita
J A - 09 Aug 2008 16:43 GMT >>> In message <U9ydnU7MM9MkWAHVnZ2dnUVZ_rjin...@earthlink.com>, J A >>> <a...@re.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > pulled out of the coalition and not have to sacrifice any more young > lives. The BBC wrote the story about the deal with the militias, you dimwit.
By the way, for months I've been asking you to back up that story you told about a friend in California complaining about Obama campaign tactics against Clinton's wife.
> - nilita J A - 09 Aug 2008 16:43 GMT >>> They didn't. Try finding out what actually happened. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>particularly coverage >>from the BBC.
> If it's on the BBC it must automatically be true? The odds of the BBC (and the US military) having the story right, versus a self serving denial by the British ministry that is embarrassed by the story, favor the BBC by a great deal.
> You need to think a little more. Just because you like a story, doesn't > mean it's true... LOL.
<snip further embarrassing wriggling>
Paul J. Adam - 09 Aug 2008 17:59 GMT >> If it's on the BBC it must automatically be true? > >The odds of the BBC (and the US military) having the story right, versus a >self serving denial by the British ministry that is embarrassed by the >story, favor the BBC by a great deal. Oh, right. Apparently the BBC know exactly what this "deal" was, down to the exact details of who was and was not authorised to move troops from the COB into the city, but can't actually produce any evidence that it exists.
Other significant details - like the fact that Basrah had already been given PIC on a US-driven timetable, which meant British assistance was available on request but *not* provided pre-emptively - tend to go unsaid.
Maliki wanted to upstage General Mohan, called Charge of the Knights early with units from out of area, and found to his annoyance that he actually *did* need both 10th Brigade and British support. This story is him covering his back to blame any problems on the British, rather than his own machinations.
<http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article4467087.ece>
+++++ "British and Iraqi commanders in Basra had their own troop-surge plan to rid the city of Shia militia extremists but it was vetoed by the Iraqi Prime Minister, the Ministry of Defence has confirmed.
The third and final phase of the plan, which would have involved a surge of Iraqi troops into Basra with “low-profile” support from British troops, was due to have started this month. When it was presented to Nouri al-Maliki, the Iraqi Prime Minister, on March 21, however, he surprised the British by announcing that he had his own troop-surge plan that he would launch the following day, with 900 American soldiers and Marines being sent into Basra.
Colonel Robert Castellvi, the senior American Marine adviser to the 1st Iraqi Army Division sent down to Basra, described exclusively to The Times what he found when he arrived in the southern city in March. “The Iraqi forces that had been in the city had been defeated. There were whole swaths of the city under militia control,” he said. “The provincial government had stopped functioning as a government that provides security for the people. There were dead bodies and burnt-out vehicles on the streets.”
The rejection of the longer-term plan drawn up by General Mohan al-Firaiji, then the Iraqi commander in Basra, in collaboration with the British military, was the latest blow in relations between Mr al-Maliki and the British commanders in the south.
...
Under General al-Firaiji’s British-sponsored three-phase plan, the first stage was to have involved an intensive training programme to get the Iraqi Army’s 14 Division, which had been sent to Basra, up to combat-ready levels. The second phase was to involve negotiations with the Iraqi Government to guarantee economic development in Basra. The third phase, fixed for August, was to launch a large-scale operation in Basra, with 14 Division reinforced by Iraqi troops from Baghdad.
The plan was taken up to Baghdad on March 21 and presented to General David Petraeus, the US commander of the Multinational Corps, who showed it to Mr al-Maliki. It was then that the Iraqi Prime Minister announced that he wanted to send troops down to Basra the next day. Thousands of Iraqi troops with 900 American minders from the US Marine Corps and 82nd Airborne Division, as well as specialist planners from the 1,000-strong coalition corps headquarters in Baghdad, arrived the next day at the British airport base. The British provided Challenger 2 tanks as well as artillery units and RAF Tornados, but no combat troops were requested. +++++
But presumably Generals Petraeus and al-Firaiji know less than the BBC about their plans and operations?
 Signature The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides
paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
J A - 09 Aug 2008 19:02 GMT Give it up.
Nobody with any common sense has trouble understanding what went on.
From the BBC:
" Ali al-Salman, a senior commander of the Mehdi Army in Basra told the BBC that he attended three meetings with a "British army officer and a British 'civilian' between 8 February and 10 February 2007". "
" Ali al-Salman claims that under the terms of the deal 60 Shia prisoners were released, the British agreed to stop patrolling in Basra and the Mehdi Army agreed not to attack the British headquarters in the city.
The Mehdi Army commander argues that the British "didn't keep their part of the bargain as [in April 2008] they participated in military operations in Basra". "
" The command has to maintain morale. It can't be seen to do a deal with people who have killed soldier's mates "
Paul J. Adam - 09 Aug 2008 20:50 GMT >Give it up. No, thanks. You've got a BBC hack chasing a brief from Baghdad, and a handful of unattributable claims and vague statements. But this is supposed to be convincing?
>Nobody with any common sense has trouble understanding what went on. No, they don't. But that seems to exclude you...
>From the BBC: > >" Ali al-Salman, a senior commander of the Mehdi Army in Basra told the BBC >that he attended three meetings with a "British army officer and a British >'civilian' between 8 February and 10 February 2007". " And he can identify these people?
"Colonel Michael 'Mickey' Mouse" and "Sir Bartholomew Simpson OMG" aren't authorised to make deals for anyone. If he had three meetings with these characters, why doesn't he know their names?
"They had no names, no identification, but they *said* they were British so they must surely be..." is just a little bit desperate, don't you think?
 Signature The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides
paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
torresD - 09 Aug 2008 23:11 GMT Why some rice farmers -- some rice farmers -- some rice eaters ran him out of Korea.
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/malcolmxballotorbullet.htm
I hope that the white man can see this, 'cause if he don't see it you're finished.
If you don't see it you're going to be coming -- you're going to become involved in some action in which you don't have a chance.
And we don't care anything about your atomic bomb;
it's --
it's useless because other countries have atomic bombs.
When two or three different countries have atomic bombs, nobody can use them, so it means that the white man today is without a weapon.
If you're gonna -- If you want some action, you gotta come on down to Earth.
And there's more black people on Earth than there are white people on Earth.
I only got a couple more minutes.
The white man can never win another war on the ground.
His days of war, victory, his great --
his days of that ground victory are over.
Can I prove it?
Yes.
Take all the action that's going on on this earth right now that he's involved in.
Tell me where he's winning. Nowhere.
Why some rice farmers -- some rice farmers -- some rice eaters ran him out of Korea.
Yes, they ran him out of Korea.
Rice eaters with nothing but gym shoes and a rifle and a bowl of rice took him and his tanks and his napalm and all that other action he's supposed to have and ran him across the Yalu.
Why?
'Cause the day that he can win on the ground has passed.
Up in French Indo-China those little peasants, rice growers, took on the might of the French army and ran all the Frenchmen -- you remember Dien Bien Phu. No.
The same thing happened in Algeria, in Africa.
They didn't have anything but a rifle.
The French had all these highly mechanized instruments of warfare, but they put some guerilla action on,
and a -- and a -- and a white man can't fight a guerilla warfare.
Guerilla action takes heart, takes nerve, and he doesn't have that.
He's brave when he's got tanks.
He's brave when he's got planes.
He's brave when he's got bombs.
He's brave when he got a whole lot of company along with him,
but you take that little man from Africa and Asia, turn him loose in the woods with a blade, with a blade --
that's all he needs, all he needs is a blade -- and when the sun comes down -- goes down and it's dark, it's even-steven.
J A - 09 Aug 2008 23:13 GMT >>Give it up. > > No, thanks. You've got a BBC hack chasing a brief from Baghdad, and a > handful of unattributable claims and vague statements. But this is > supposed to be convincing? The BBC didn't make this up. Their reporters have been in Iraq for a long time, and they know what's going on and how to source a story.
Besides, it's against the BBC's interests to foist phony stories on their own military.
Also, the story fits perfectly well with the lack of British military activity in recent years, the dominance of the shiia gangs and militias in Basra, and the need for Miliki to send troops in.
Maliki didn't send his troops in for the fun of it, he thought he needed to.
Sorry, but the truth is pretty obvious....
>>Nobody with any common sense has trouble understanding what went on. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > so they must surely be..." is just a little bit desperate, don't you > think? Paul J. Adam - 10 Aug 2008 09:08 GMT >>>Give it up. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >The BBC didn't make this up. Their reporters have been in Iraq for a long >time, and they know what's going on and how to source a story. Which is why they name sources when they have them. When they don't have named sources, the story's based on lobby briefing rather than researched fact...
>Besides, it's against the BBC's interests to foist phony stories on their >own military. 'Scuse me? The BBC reports stories that look like good news. Sometimes they turn out to *not* be good news. This is an example.
>Also, the story fits perfectly well with the lack of British military >activity in recent years, You've never been to Basrah, have you?
>the dominance of the shiia gangs and militias in >Basra, and the need for Miliki to send troops in. > >Maliki didn't send his troops in for the fun of it, he thought he needed to. However, Maliki's perceived need to send troops in - and particularly to use troops from outside the region - was driven by domestic politics, not the situation on the ground.
If there was a deal to "leave one particular militia alone", let alone "leave *all* the militias alone", it would have had to be briefed from CG MND(SE) right down to sub-unit commanders. Should be *easy* to find either records of it, or someone willing to go on record describing their orders.
 Signature The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides
paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
J A - 10 Aug 2008 16:15 GMT >>>>Give it up. >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 'Scuse me? The BBC reports stories that look like good news. Sometimes > they turn out to *not* be good news. This is an example.
>>Also, the story fits perfectly well with the lack of British military >>activity in recent years, > > You've never been to Basrah, have you? The point is, the BBC has, and so were US troops..... that's the problem.
>>the dominance of the shiia gangs and militias in >>Basra, and the need for Miliki to send troops in. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > use troops from outside the region - was driven by domestic politics, not > the situation on the ground. Bullshit.
The odds of the BBC (and the US military) having the story right, versus a self serving denial by the British ministry that is embarrassed by the story, favor the BBC by a great deal.
<snip>
It doesn't show much wit, to lie about things that have a lot of coverage, particularly coverage from the BBC.
And don't bother trying to foist British ministry of defense denials on this matter as being credible.
From BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7543187.stm
[re. Maliki offensive into militia and gang dominated Basra ]
The American military though was not as slow to respond.
Their extensive involvement in the battle for Basra was revealed by the BBC in April 2008.
It is now clear that 1,000 American soldiers were on the streets of the city within 48 hours.
Compare that to the British response.
The US military is said to be "slightly at a loss with the British".
There is a perception among some Americans that the decisions that were taken were a direct result of an "accommodation" with the militias.
Either way the military consequences are now being seen in Basra.
"There are a lot of discrete American units operating in the city", said a military intelligence source
=== Entire article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7543187.stm
Did Britain make Mehdi Army pact?
UK troops were deployed a week after the offensive began
The British in Basra made a secret pact with the Mehdi Army which kept the military out of March's Iraqi-led offensive against the Shia militia for a week, according to the Times newspaper.
The BBC's Crispin Thorold, in Baghdad, assesses whether such an "accommodation" could have been possible.
In March this year the Iraqi security forces launched a major offensive against the Mehdi Army, a Shia militia, in Iraq's second city Basra. From the beginning the British described that operation as "Iraqi planned, led and executed".
But once again questions are being asked about why the British were so slow to put their troops on the ground in the city.
From the earliest hours of the Iraqi military operations in Basra it was clear that things were not going according to plan.
MoD denial
The resistance by Shia militiamen was much stronger than had been anticipated.
Yet British troops were only deployed from Basra's airport into the city after nearly a week of fighting.
Could that decision have been dictated by a secret deal between the British and the Mehdi Army, as suggested by the Times?
The newspaper has claimed that UK troops initially stayed out of the battle because of a pre-arranged "accommodation" with the Mehdi Army - denied flatly by the Ministry of Defence.
They were on the streets by 1 April when they had turned the training mission into a support mission
Major Tom Holloway
However, closer examination of the British relationship with the militias in Basra shows that such a deal could have been possible.
Military intelligence sources have told the BBC that the British have been talking to Shia militias including the Mehdi Army for several years.
At times the frequency of the talks have declined, like during the Shia uprising in 2004.
More recently there appear to have been specific deals between the two sides.
Ali al-Salman, a senior commander of the Mehdi Army in Basra told the BBC that he attended three meetings with a "British army officer and a British 'civilian' between 8 February and 10 February 2007".
According to the militia commander, a colonel from the Iraqi Army, and Ahmad Al-Fartusi, another member of the Mehdi Army who had been detained by the British, were also present.
'Prisoners released'
Our attempts to find Ahmad al-Fartusi, who is now in hiding, have been unsuccessful. The Iraqi Army refused to comment.
Ali al-Salman claims that under the terms of the deal 60 Shia prisoners were released, the British agreed to stop patrolling in Basra and the Mehdi Army agreed not to attack the British headquarters in the city.
The Mehdi Army commander argues that the British "didn't keep their part of the bargain as [in April 2008] they participated in military operations in Basra".
The command has to maintain morale. It can't be seen to do a deal with people who have killed soldier's mates
BBC source
A British military spokesman in Basra refused to discuss the details of any negotiations with any party.
"Nothing of that nature affected movement into the city", said Major Tom Holloway.
If there were any sort of accommodation between the Mehdi Army and the British army the details are unlikely to have been widely disseminated.
"If the delay in fighting in March/April 2008 was due to a deal the only people who would have known would have been the defence minister, the defence chief, a very senior commander in the field and some planners," said a British military intelligence source.
"The command has to maintain morale. It can't be seen to do a deal with people who have killed soldier's mates. That would make the government as popular as a bag of puke," said the source.
Whatever the truth there are still serious questions about why the British took so long to support the Iraqi army when they were on the back-foot.
"British forces in Basra were postured for training," said Major Tom Holloway, the British military spokesman in Basra.
"They were on the streets by 1 April when they had turned the training mission into a support mission."
Political reluctance?
Observers reject that outright.
There are more than 4,000 British forces in the Basra airport, including three or four infantry battle groups.
Even at a conservative estimate that would mean 1,800 British soldiers would be ready to fight.
Could the delay have been due to a political reluctance in Whitehall for British soldiers to be embroiled in an Iraqi fight just months after the British had handed over security control of the province?
Again the answer to that is unclear.
The 60,000-strong Mehdi Army was created in 2003
The American military though was not as slow to respond.
Their extensive involvement in the battle for Basra was revealed by the BBC in April 2008.
It is now clear that 1,000 American soldiers were on the streets of the city within 48 hours.
Compare that to the British response.
The US military is said to be "slightly at a loss with the British".
There is a perception among some Americans that the decisions that were taken were a direct result of an "accommodation" with the militias.
Either way the military consequences are now being seen in Basra.
"There are a lot of discrete American units operating in the city", said a military intelligence source.
"They are considering sending as many as 15,000 troops down there". ===
BBC Wednesday, 26 March 2008, 00:41 GMT
Iraq forces battle Basra militias
Iraqi PM Nouri Maliki is in Basra supervising the operation
The UK military returned control of Basra to the Iraqis in December and concentrated its forces at the city airport.
The Iraqi commander in charge, Lt Gen Ali Ghaidan, said the operation aimed to purge Basra of what he called "outlaws".
Moqtada Sadr has threatened "general civil disobedience"
He said his forces had confiscated weapons and roadside bombs during raids across Iraq's second city.
Routes into Basra have been sealed off, according to reports.
One resident of the city told the BBC: "The streets are very dangerous, there's continuous exchange of fire in areas very close to my house, even though my neighbourhood is relatively safer than others."
The BBC's Paul Wood says the fighting in Basra can be seen as the government trying to impose law and order but also as part of the power struggle within the Shia community.
He says such intra-Shia violence could be just as dangerous to hopes of peace as sectarian hatreds or the insurgency.
Curfew
The offensive comes a day after the authorities in Basra imposed an indefinite night-time curfew.
Police have now also imposed curfews in the cities of Kut, Samawa, Nasiriyah, Hilla and Diwaniyah.
Moqtada Sadr called for "general civil disobedience in Baghdad and the Iraqi provinces" if the attacks did not end.
In Sadr City, Mehdi Army fighters reportedly ordered Iraqi police and soldiers out of the district and there have been clashes between rival militias.
Hundreds of protesters marched in the Iraqi capital, calling on shops to shut.
The Mehdi Army also took control of several areas in Kut, 175km (110 miles) south-east of Baghdad.
Moqtada Sadr last month renewed the group's ceasefire, under which it pledged not to attack rival armed groups or American forces in Iraq.
But the truce is said to have come under strain in recent weeks as US and Iraqi forces detained militia members.
Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari told the BBC: "Militias have taken over almost the city and law and order has collapsed, although it is not a hopeless case because the government is taking measures to reverse the situation.
"Remember, Basra is the lifeline of Iraq. Most of Iraq's oil exports go through Basra."
Paul J. Adam - 10 Aug 2008 17:08 GMT >Bullshit. A concise summary of the story, yes...
>The odds of the BBC (and the US military) Who is the source in the US military who can show any evidence of the deal?
They've got quotes saying "if there was a deal like that, it would be a bad thing".
>having the story right, versus a >self serving denial by the British ministry that is embarrassed by the >story, favor the BBC by a great deal. So you believe that when the US Army rescued Jessica Lynch, it really was a faked incident using pyrotechnics and blank rounds, they actually knew there was no danger and they exaggerated the whole incident for publicity?
After all, the odds of the BBC having the story right, versus a self-serving denial by the US military that is embarrassed by the story, favours the BBC by a great deal...
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/3028585.stm> "We were surprised. Why do this? There was no military, there were no soldiers in the hospital," said Dr Anmar Uday, who worked at the hospital.
"It was like a Hollywood film. They cried 'go, go, go', with guns and blanks without bullets, blanks and the sound of explosions. They made a show for the American attack on the hospital - action movies like Sylvester Stallone or Jackie Chan."
So, were the BBC right then, too? Don't bother with self-serving denials by the US military...
>It doesn't show much wit, to lie about things that have a lot of coverage, >particularly coverage >from the BBC. Which is why you shouldn't be doing it.
>And don't bother trying to foist British ministry of defense denials on this >matter as being credible. In other words, the BBC are infallible?
Try the Chief of the General Staff.
+++++ RHQ/RRF/1363 28th April 2008
1. CHIEF OF THE GENERAL STAFF’S LETTER TO THE ARMY ON THE SITUATION IN IRAQ
The Chief of the General Staff (CGS), General Sir Richard Dannatt, visited Iraq last week and wants to ensure that All Ranks are aware of the current situation in theatre.
CGS’ unclassified letter follows below and is self-explanatory, outlining the conclusions of his visit to Iraq last week but set in the context of the Campaign as a whole over the last 5 years so that no one should be in any doubt as to the current situation. Although addressed to CinC Land Forces it is for general release.
25th Apr 08
CinC Land Forces
IRAQ
1. I have just come back from one of my regular visits to Iraq and given the recent developments, I thought that it was important to give you my views about the situation and I would ask you to pass on this perspective to the chain of command and our families so that everyone is clear as to what is going on.
2. The first point to make is that as far back as 2003, the Campaign Plan envisaged a progressive handing over of responsibility to the Iraqis, both in governance and security. This is what we have achieved in Dhi Qar, Al Muthanna and Maysan and was what occurred last year in Basra when we handed over the last remaining base in the city, and then, in December 2007, the Province itself, to Iraqi control. Having set the conditions in Basra, the concept of moving into an overwatch posture at the Contingency Operating Base at Basra Airport was the next logical step and has allowed the Iraqi Security Forces to assume responsibility for the security of the Province. We always assumed that ‘overwatch’ involved the possibility of having to re-intervene in security matters if deemed appropriate by both the Iraqis and the Multinational Force that our troops come under. The idea that ‘overwatch’ simply involved our soldiers merely sitting around waiting to be called was always inaccurate, since the strategy has always been dependent on capacity building of the Iraqi Security Forces both in numbers and capabilities – and that has kept us pretty busy.
3. When I visited Iraq last week, I met soldiers of every rank who were positive about their role and committed to the task. I cannot deny that there are many who said that they would rather be at the forefront of the operations (as CGS, I think that I would be worried if I headed an Army that did not express such views) but those same individuals were all mature enough to understand it is right that the Iraqis that are now taking the lead. Indeed, these are exactly the nature of operations that we have been pressing for for some months – an Iraqi solution to an Iraqi problem. The Iraqis have called their surge into Basra ‘Operation Charge of the Knights’ and the Iraqi Prime Minister took the decision to take personal charge of it. To us in the military, that is a clear sign as to where the Iraq Main Effort has shifted and as a consequence, where the support of the Multinational Force must follow. The deployment of additional Multinational Corps headquarters staff (mostly from the US) to Multinational Division (South East) Basra is therefore an entirely logical military move which we can understand and support.
4. Following the principles of overwatch, we have provided support to the Iraqis where it is appropriate and within our rules of engagement. The capabilities that the Iraqis have requested from us and which we have provided include intelligence, aerial surveillance (manned and unmanned), force protection (including CHALLENGER 2 and WARRIOR), support helicopters, logistic and medical support. In addition, we have continued to mentor the Iraqi Security Forces and that is where most of our effort is now directed, principally with the Iraqi 14th Division. However, the Iraqis have supported their main effort by moving additional formations into the Basra area and these have come from areas in Iraq where they have been mentored by US troops. Just as it makes sense for UK advisors to accompany the Iraqi troops that we mentor, it makes equal sense that US advisors should operate alongside the Iraqi units they have been working with as they are brought in from other parts of the country for ‘Operation Charge of the Knights’.
5. Some commentators have been critical of the way that the Iraqi operation has been carried out. Having visited Iraq and talked to many of those involved, I have concluded that this is unreasonable and ignores the complexity of dealing with determined adversaries in challenging counter-insurgency operations. Just as Multinational Forces have challenges in operating in a foreign country, the Iraqi Security Forces face different challenges in operating in their own country. It is also worth bearing in mind that a year or so ago, 14 Division did not exist. Nor was it at full operating capability when operations in Basra started. Therefore to expect it to perform to a standard that has taken other nations (including our own) decades to reach is patently unrealistic. No one would deny that aspects of the Iraqi operation could have gone better at the outset. But there is no doubt that each phase (the Iraqis are now on the fourth phase ) has gone from strength to strength and is now showing some significant results – the Iraqi plan is working and is delivering what we sought. Indeed Basrawis are now being reported as “optimistic” about the future for the first time in many years.
6. My conclusion from my visit is that the campaign remains on its broad track but as everyone in the Army who has either served in Iraq or been involved in supporting the operation knows, it has, and will continue, to take time. We have quite properly reduced our force numbers over the last couple of years, but there will still be many more challenges to overcome and at no stage will it be easy. When faced with these situations, we must steel ourselves to see it through; this is what we have done for the past 5 years and we will continue to do so as long as a Land Forces contingent is required in Southern Iraq. I returned from my visit buoyed by the courage, sense of purpose and determination of our soldiers. I would like everyone to know this, lest anyone think that somehow this is not the case and our families can continue to take great pride in how their loved ones are carrying out their duty as professional soldiers serving their country.
CGS +++++
Now, if you want to call Richard Dannatt a liar, you'd be most unwise: he's earned a formidable reputation for honesty.
>From BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7543187.stm > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >It is now clear that 1,000 American soldiers were on the streets of the city >within 48 hours. Because they were attached to the Iraqi Army units that Maliki sent south at short notice, cutting his local commander (and the British) out of the loop. You've been told that several times, didn't you notice?
>There is a perception among some Americans that the decisions that were >taken were a direct result of an "accommodation" with the militias. There is "a perception"? There is none of that awkward "evidence"? Funny, that...
>If there were any sort of accommodation between the Mehdi Army and the >British army the details are unlikely to have been widely disseminated. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >defence chief, a very senior commander in the field and some planners," said >a British military intelligence source. More nonsense from more nameless "sources".
Because, you know, *nobody* would notice that they were meant to be going into Basrah and actually they weren't, and *nobody* would wonder why. If there was a deal to "leave the militias alone" that has to be pushed right down the chain of command: otherwise, the militias don't get left alone.
Try looking beyond the BBC for your information.
<http://www.soldiermagazine.co.uk/mag/update1.htm> A SENIOR American officer has praised British soldiers for their work in southern Iraq, claiming that their “decisive” efforts had helped smash rogue militias.
Gen Jack Keane, who serves on the US Policy Review Board, told reporters there had been a “stunning turnaround” in fortunes and said the troops deserved recognition. He had earlier been quoted in the media as saying there was a “general disengagement” by British forces in the region and that security on the ground was gradually deteriorating.
But speaking in Basra, he pointed out that British support for the Iraqi-led Operation Charge of the Knights had played a pivotal role in defeating the insurgents who had been in control in some areas of the city.
“It has been a stunning victory in such a short period of time,” he said. “I was here in the third week of March of this year and the militia were pretty much in control of the city. Now the Iraqi security forces are in control. You can go any place in Basra, have complete freedom of movement and can do it safely.”
Gen Keane praised soldiers of 7th Armoured Brigade – the Desert Rats – for their work with the Iraqis in Military Transition Teams. They had passed on invaluable knowledge and experience to the Iraqi soldiers they were mentoring, who were becoming a credible force in their own right.
“Working with the Iraqis side-by-side, providing advice and counsel and helping educate them about techniques and procedures we know work is a proven combination,” he said.
“The British participation is not only helpful, it is decisive.” Gen Keane said he believed that the Iraqis had a strong senior commander in Gen Aziz, who was committed to ensuring enemy forces had no place to hide. His crackdown had hit the insurgents hard.
“The British military, the Iraqi forces and some of the US forces that are also participating in the operation deserve a tremendous amount of credit,” Gen Keane concluded. +++++
<http://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iraqi-security-force-operat ions-basra>
"Frustrated American officials claimed that the Iraqi government overestimated the ISF’s abilities, “underestimated the scale of resistance,” and failed to establish detailed and coordinated plans.[xvi] Despite prior coordination with American leaders in Baghdad, Maliki’s impulsive thrust into Basra left Iraqi and Coalition forces without time to prepare and mass forces before mounting the attack.[xvii] Given the historical lack of U.S. and British presence in Basra as well as the limits of Iraqi logistics and command and control, Operation Charge of the Knights would have been difficult under far better circumstances.[xviii] The GOI’s faulty planning and coordination complicated the mission even further and contributed to perceptions that Mahdi militiamen completely defeated the Iraqi Security Forces.[xix]"
+++++ <http://crapo.senate.gov/issues/preserving_freedom/documents/twii_080630. pdf> BASRA — Operation Charge of the Knights, a joint operation involving UK Soldiers and the Iraqi Army, which aims to restore order and improve security in Basra, is making further progress. The Iraqi Army continues to demonstrate its commitment to improving the security situation in the city, carrying out a number of vehicle check points in recent days. Inspections were carried out on a number of vehicles which were going in and out of the city.
Operation Charge of the Knights, which began in March, is now into its 14th phase. The operation has been one of the key drivers in bringing peace and stability to the streets of Basra in recent months. Elements of the Iraqi Army and Iraqi Police Service, with their US and UK Military Transition Teams (MiTTs), can now be seen working in the city.
<http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17853& Itemid=128> NT: Question from Al-Watan Newspaper. A few days ago we’ve heard that there is a desire by the United States to coordinate with the British government to bring back the British forces to Basra. If this is true, will—have you addressed the British government regarding this?
MAJ GEN BERGNER: Well, first of all, let me say that the British forces that remain in Basra are there specifically to help enable and partner with Iraqi Security Forces, and they are still there operating in the province of Basra. I think that the decisions, the deployment of Iraqi Security Forces, and the leadership and direction of the Government of Iraq in the last few days demonstrates that the Government of Iraq takes very seriously their responsibility and their capability to project force into provinces that have achieved provincial Iraqi control and to assert the necessary security forces to enforce the rule of law.
And so, this is less about the coalition forces in the province of Basra than it is about Iraqi Security Forces and the leadership of the Government of Iraq in implementing plans necessary to deal with criminal activity. Shukran. Yes, sir.
....
REP5: James Hider from the London Times. You said that there had been discussions with low-level members of the Jaish al-Mahdi in the Sadrist office. Are those discussions going on? And what exactly did you agree before this operation started? Have they in any way signed off on this was the first question?
And secondly, what is the plan if the Iraqi forces can’t take Basra? The British were there for five years, thousands of troops and we got into this mess anyway. Is there any plan for reinforcements, for coalition troops to go in if the Army can’t take Basra? And I hear that they’ve been repulsed from one area, Al-Hanaya, already by the Mahdi Army?
MAJ GEN BERGNER: What was the first part of your question?
REP5: It was the talks with the Jaish al-Mahdi.
MAJ GEN BERGNER:Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, first let me start with that. At the local level, coalition commanders have talked to members of the Jaish al-Mahdi on an unexceptional basis in an effort to try to improve security in neighborhoods in different districts. And so, lieutenant colonels and brigade commanders have engaged and will continue to engage in dialog with all those who seek to improve security in the districts and neighborhoods that they are responsible for.
And that has included members who are associated with Jaish al-Mahdi in the past and it is not specifically tied to anything today. So I think…I don’t want to mislead you that there is some recent discussion or interaction underway. That’s not what I intended.
REP5: [Unintelligible] talks on at the moment. There’ve been talks [unintelligible].
MAJ GEN BERGNER:I can’t tell you if there are battalion commanders out there today talking to members of Jaish al-Mahdi, but they have in the past, and where there is a basis to help improve the security situation we continue to…we will always be willing to talk to folks on that level.
....
REP11: Sam Dagher] with the Christian Science Monitor. Thank you for the opportunity. Just a couple of questions. We were told by an Iraqi security official in Basra who is actually taking part in the operation itself that there are U.S. and British soldiers close to the Iranian border at the moment to intercept any sort of militia or weapons movement.
So if you can comment on that. Second question is, we were just in Sadr City and the whole…pretty much the whole district is ringed by U.S. troops and U.S. military vehicles. A lot of the inner roads are now closed by the militiamen themselves. They are out on the streets. They are not letting anyone go in or out. We were told…we even saw evidence perhaps that they’ve even booby-trapped a lot of the main roads into Sadr City and laid IEDs. Is this mission impossible?
I mean, they are now among civilians. How could you get them? And also the third question is relating to…[laughs] border, Sadr City, and, oh, yesterday government checkpoints, Army and police—I mean, I saw this with my own eyes. The militiamen were right next to these checkpoints intimidating people, telling them to actually go back home, to close their shops.
There was so much anti-American banners and graffiti at all these checkpoints. So…I mean doesn’t this maybe lead us to question a little bit maybe the loyalty of some of these forces and whether they would be willing to fight, you know, these militiamen and criminals when push comes to shove? Thank you.
MAJ GEN BERGNER: First, the forces that we have in Basra are the forces that we have embedded in any…with any other Iraqi Security Forces. We have transition teams with Iraqi Army units.
We have liaison officers with the Baghdad Operations Command, and they represent both the Multi-National Force and MND…Multi-National Division – Southeast. And we have the normal relationship we have with border enforcement teams, which we generally have a border enforcement transition team that helps coordinate efforts and develop capacity within the border enforcement elements as well.
Those are the forces that we have in Basra. And we do not have any conventional forces there. We do not have the…there have been other reports that there were coalition forces deployed there. What we have there is what I just described. Your comment about Sadr City and the circumstance there, as you know, much of the indirect fire that has been directed towards neighborhoods here in Baghdad has emanated from the vicinity of East Baghdad and Sadr City in several cases in particular.
....
INT: Question from Kurdistan TV. You have mentioned that there are some foreign sides that stand behind the military operations in Basra. And you’ve mentioned also Quds Forces. Is this a direct accusation by you against Iran regarding the operations and what’s going on in Basra?
The second question: is there any intention…if there is any withdrawal of the British forces, will you take over responsibility there instead of the British forces in case the British forces withdrew from Basra?
MAJ GEN BERGNER: Well, first of all, the Government of Iraq has asked its neighbors to exert helpful influence in improving the security and stability in Iraq. The Government of Iraq has asked its neighbors to exert positive and helpful influences to improve the stability and security here in their country. And we have certainly joined them in that interest as well.
And in terms of Basra, there is no question but the Government of Iran has significant influence in Basra and in the province and in southeastern Iraq in general. And so, we would love to see the Government of Iran fulfill its commitment to help improve the security and stability and the situation there, and to reduce the activities of those operating outside the law.
And our understanding is that the Government of Iraq is working closely with their neighbors, specifically to ask their improved support in improving the situation there. In terms of—what was your second question again? It was about the Brit-…I remember. It’s…I got it. Your second question was about MN-…Multi-National Division – Southeast, and British forces there.
The government of the UK and the leadership of the Multi-National Division there have made it very clear that they are working…they are going to continue to perform their mission. They are continuing to work with the Iraqi Security Forces, and so there really isn’t a basis for me to project beyond that. There is no sense that they will do otherwise than continue their mission there. Shukran. Who have I not asked on…yes, sir.
....
 Signature The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides
paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
J A - 10 Aug 2008 17:33 GMT >>Bullshit. > > A concise summary of the story, yes... The BBC got it right. You're lying and wriggling.
The British defefense ministry is embarrassed and lying.
The British were relatively passive in Basra over the years - that's how the shiia gangs and militia took hold there.
A Sadr militia commander stated there was a deal. " Ali al-Salman, a senior commander of the Mehdi Army in Basra told the BBC that he attended three meetings with a "British army officer and a British 'civilian' between 8 February and 10 February 2007". "
" According to the militia commander, a colonel from the Iraqi Army, and Ahmad Al-Fartusi, another member of the Mehdi Army who had been detained by the British, were also present.
'Prisoners released'
Our attempts to find Ahmad al-Fartusi, who is now in hiding, have been unsuccessful. The Iraqi Army refused to comment.
Ali al-Salman claims that under the terms of the deal 60 Shia prisoners were released, the British agreed to stop patrolling in Basra and the Mehdi Army agreed not to attack the British headquarters in the city.
The Mehdi Army commander argues that the British "didn't keep their part of the bargain as [in April 2008] they participated in military operations in Basra". "
When the Iraqi forces got in trouble, the US had to come in and back them up, saying they were at a loss over the absence of British forces.
Quit lying. You look ridiculous.
<snip>
Entire article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7543187.stm
Did Britain make Mehdi Army pact?
UK troops were deployed a week after the offensive began
The British in Basra made a secret pact with the Mehdi Army which kept the military out of March's Iraqi-led offensive against the Shia militia for a week, according to the Times newspaper.
The BBC's Crispin Thorold, in Baghdad, assesses whether such an "accommodation" could have been possible.
In March this year the Iraqi security forces launched a major offensive against the Mehdi Army, a Shia militia, in Iraq's second city Basra. From the beginning the British described that operation as "Iraqi planned, led and executed".
But once again questions are being asked about why the British were so slow to put their troops on the ground in the city.
From the earliest hours of the Iraqi military operations in Basra it was clear that things were not going according to plan.
MoD denial
The resistance by Shia militiamen was much stronger than had been anticipated.
Yet British troops were only deployed from Basra's airport into the city after nearly a week of fighting.
Could that decision have been dictated by a secret deal between the British and the Mehdi Army, as suggested by the Times?
The newspaper has claimed that UK troops initially stayed out of the battle because of a pre-arranged "accommodation" with the Mehdi Army - denied flatly by the Ministry of Defence.
They were on the streets by 1 April when they had turned the training mission into a support mission
Major Tom Holloway
However, closer examination of the British relationship with the militias in Basra shows that such a deal could have been possible.
Military intelligence sources have told the BBC that the British have been talking to Shia militias including the Mehdi Army for several years.
At times the frequency of the talks have declined, like during the Shia uprising in 2004.
More recently there appear to have been specific deals between the two sides.
Ali al-Salman, a senior commander of the Mehdi Army in Basra told the BBC that he attended three meetings with a "British army officer and a British 'civilian' between 8 February and 10 February 2007".
According to the militia commander, a colonel from the Iraqi Army, and Ahmad Al-Fartusi, another member of the Mehdi Army who had been detained by the British, were also present.
'Prisoners released'
Our attempts to find Ahmad al-Fartusi, who is now in hiding, have been unsuccessful. The Iraqi Army refused to comment.
Ali al-Salman claims that under the terms of the deal 60 Shia prisoners were released, the British agreed to stop patrolling in Basra and the Mehdi Army agreed not to attack the British headquarters in the city.
The Mehdi Army commander argues that the British "didn't keep their part of the bargain as [in April 2008] they participated in military operations in Basra".
The command has to maintain morale. It can't be seen to do a deal with people who have killed soldier's mates
BBC source
A British military spokesman in Basra refused to discuss the details of any negotiations with any party.
"Nothing of that nature affected movement into the city", said Major Tom Holloway.
If there were any sort of accommodation between the Mehdi Army and the British army the details are unlikely to have been widely disseminated.
"If the delay in fighting in March/April 2008 was due to a deal the only people who would have known would have been the defence minister, the defence chief, a very senior commander in the field and some planners," said a British military intelligence source.
"The command has to maintain morale. It can't be seen to do a deal with people who have killed soldier's mates. That would make the government as popular as a bag of puke," said the source.
Whatever the truth there are still serious questions about why the British took so long to support the Iraqi army when they were on the back-foot.
"British forces in Basra were postured for training," said Major Tom Holloway, the British military spokesman in Basra.
"They were on the streets by 1 April when they had turned the training mission into a support mission."
Political reluctance?
Observers reject that outright.
There are more than 4,000 British forces in the Basra airport, including three or four infantry battle groups.
Even at a conservative estimate that would mean 1,800 British soldiers would be ready to fight.
Could the delay have been due to a political reluctance in Whitehall for British soldiers to be embroiled in an Iraqi fight just months after the British had handed over security control of the province?
Again the answer to that is unclear.
The 60,000-strong Mehdi Army was created in 2003
The American military though was not as slow to respond.
Their extensive involvement in the battle for Basra was revealed by the BBC in April 2008.
It is now clear that 1,000 American soldiers were on the streets of the city within 48 hours.
Compare that to the British response.
The US military is said to be "slightly at a loss with the British".
There is a perception among some Americans that the decisions that were taken were a direct result of an "accommodation" with the militias.
Either way the military consequences are now being seen in Basra.
"There are a lot of discrete American units operating in the city", said a military intelligence source.
"They are considering sending as many as 15,000 troops down there". ===
BBC Wednesday, 26 March 2008, 00:41 GMT
Iraq forces battle Basra militias
Iraqi PM Nouri Maliki is in Basra supervising the operation
The UK military returned control of Basra to the Iraqis in December and concentrated its forces at the city airport.
The Iraqi commander in charge, Lt Gen Ali Ghaidan, said the operation aimed to purge Basra of what he called "outlaws".
Moqtada Sadr has threatened "general civil disobedience"
He said his forces had confiscated weapons and roadside bombs during raids across Iraq's second city.
Routes into Basra have been sealed off, according to reports.
One resident of the city told the BBC: "The streets are very dangerous, there's continuous exchange of fire in areas very close to my house, even though my neighbourhood is relatively safer than others."
The BBC's Paul Wood says the fighting in Basra can be seen as the government trying to impose law and order but also as part of the power struggle within the Shia community.
He says such intra-Shia violence could be just as dangerous to hopes of peace as sectarian hatreds or the insurgency.
Curfew
The offensive comes a day after the authorities in Basra imposed an indefinite night-time curfew.
Police have now also imposed curfews in the cities of Kut, Samawa, Nasiriyah, Hilla and Diwaniyah.
Moqtada Sadr called for "general civil disobedience in Baghdad and the Iraqi provinces" if the attacks did not end.
In Sadr City, Mehdi Army fighters reportedly ordered Iraqi police and soldiers out of the district and there have been clashes between rival militias.
Hundreds of protesters marched in the Iraqi capital, calling on shops to shut.
The Mehdi Army also took control of several areas in Kut, 175km (110 miles) south-east of Baghdad.
Moqtada Sadr last month renewed the group's ceasefire, under which it pledged not to attack rival armed groups or American forces in Iraq.
But the truce is said to have come under strain in recent weeks as US and Iraqi forces detained militia members.
Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari told the BBC: "Militias have taken over almost the city and law and order has collapsed, although it is not a hopeless case because the government is taking measures to reverse the situation.
"Remember, Basra is the lifeline of Iraq. Most of Iraq's oil exports go through Basra."
===== <snip obfuscations>
Paul J. Adam - 10 Aug 2008 17:59 GMT >>>Bullshit. >> >> A concise summary of the story, yes... > >The BBC got it right. You're lying and wriggling. No. I'm giving you chapter and verse. All you have is an unreferenced story with no names.
>The British defefense ministry is embarrassed and lying. So is the US military, it seems - strange they seem so unable to support your claims.
Who signed off on this deal? Recall that the US kept channels open with militia too.
+++++ MAJ GEN BERGNER:Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, first let me start with that. At the local level, coalition commanders have talked to members of the Jaish al-Mahdi on an unexceptional basis in an effort to try to improve security in neighborhoods in different districts. And so, lieutenant colonels and brigade commanders have engaged and will continue to engage in dialog with all those who seek to improve security in the districts and neighborhoods that they are responsible for.
And that has included members who are associated with Jaish al-Mahdi in the past and it is not specifically tied to anything today. +++++
>A Sadr militia commander stated there was a deal. >" Ali al-Salman, a senior commander of the Mehdi Army in Basra told the BBC >that he attended three meetings with a "British army officer and a British >'civilian' between 8 February and 10 February 2007". " Who are, of course, completely nameless. Strange, that... He knew they were "British Army" and "British civilian" but he has no idea what their names were.
>The Mehdi Army commander argues that the British "didn't keep their part of >the bargain as [in April 2008] they participated in military operations in >Basra". " But the BBC says the British Army honoured the "deal" and stayed out.
Who do we believe? The Jaish al-Mahdi commander who supposedly negotiated the deal, or the BBC?
>When the Iraqi forces got in trouble, the US had to come in and back them >up, saying they were at a loss over the absence of British forces. Please check your facts before you write nonsense. The US personnel were the training teams embedded with the Iraqi Army units sent down from al-Anbar province. No additional US troops were used.
Wednesday, 26 March 2008 Maj. Gen. Kevin Bergner, Multi-National Force-Iraq spokesman:- "First, the forces that we have in Basra are the forces that we have embedded in any…with any other Iraqi Security Forces. We have transition teams with Iraqi Army units. We have liaison officers with the Baghdad Operations Command, and they represent both the Multi-National Force and MND…Multi-National Division – Southeast. And we have the normal relationship we have with border enforcement teams, which we generally have a border enforcement transition team that helps coordinate efforts and develop capacity within the border enforcement elements as well. Those are the forces that we have in Basra. And we do not have any conventional forces there."
Are you claiming the General is a liar?
What about the Iraqis, who might be expected to know a little about what's going on?
"Sam Dagher] with the Christian Science Monitor. Thank you for the opportunity. Just a couple of questions. We were told by an Iraqi security official in Basra who is actually taking part in the operation itself that there are U.S. and British soldiers close to the Iranian border at the moment to intercept any sort of militia or weapons movement."
Funny - according to the BBC there were no British troops doing anything, because of some secret deal cooked up with the militias.
Still, who knows more about events in Iraq? The Iraqis? Or the BBC?
>Quit lying. You look ridiculous. Don't have to. I produce facts, you ignore them and scurry back to the same sourceless twaddle.
 Signature The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools. -Thucydides
paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com
J A - 10 Aug 2008 19:01 GMT >>>>Bullshit. >>> >>> A concise summary of the story, yes... >> >>The BBC got it right. You're lying and wriggling.
> No. I'm giving you chapter and verse. All you have is an unreferenced > story with no names. You're a liar.
My information comes from BBC reporting and general reporting over recent times.
Everybody knows Basra has been run by gangs and Shiia milita for years.
Everybody knows the Brtish forces permitted it - it was their area of responsibility, post invasion..
Everybody knows Maliki went in early 2008 to establish Iraqi governemnt control, and got into trouble fighting the Sadr milita.
Everybody knows the Americans had to send in ground troops in to help them - becasue the British stayed in their bases - hence the quote the the Americans were ""slightly at a loss with the British".
Everybody knows the the BBC is a very reliable news service that has been on the ground there for years. It has reported that the British made a deal with the Sadr miltia and has used names. It is reporting on its own country's military and it's very doubtful that it's lying.
" Ali al-Salman, a senior commander of the Mehdi Army in Basra told the BBC that he attended three meetings with a "British army officer and a British 'civilian' between 8 February and 10 February 2007". "
It is you who lying and peddling twaddle like a fool - it shows no brians to lie about something everybody can see clearly.
<snip twaddle>
From BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7543187.stm
[re. Maliki offensive into militia and gang dominated Basra ]
The American military though was not as slow to respond.
Their extensive involvement in the battle for Basra was revealed by the BBC in April 2008.
It is now clear that 1,000 American soldiers were on the streets of the city within 48 hours.
Compare that to the British response.
The US military is said to be "slightly at a loss with the British".
There is a perception among some Americans that the decisions that were taken were a direct result of an "accommodation" with the militias.
Either way the military consequences are now being seen in Basra.
"There are a lot of discrete American units operating in the city", said a military intelligence source
=== Entire article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7543187.stm
Did Britain make Mehdi Army pact?
UK troops were deployed a week after the offensive began
The British in Basra made a secret pact with the Mehdi Army which kept the military out of March's Iraqi-led offensive against the Shia militia for a week, according to the Times newspaper.
The BBC's Crispin Thorold, in Baghdad, assesses whether such an "accommodation" could have been possible.
In March this year the Iraqi security forces launched a major offensive against the Mehdi Army, a Shia militia, in Iraq's second city Basra. From the beginning the British described that operation as "Iraqi planned, led and executed".
But once again questions are being asked about why the British were so slow to put their troops on the ground in the city.
From the earliest hours of the Iraqi military operations in Basra it was clear that things were not going according to plan.
MoD denial
The resistance by Shia militiamen was much stronger than had been anticipated.
Yet Br
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