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History Forum / General / British History / July 2009Lancaster bomber video
In a local thrift store I found a VHS cassette of an episode from a British TV series. The episode is #6 of "Pathfinders". The title is "Operation Gomorrah" or "Gomora". This 1984 video is about the outfitting of the Lancaster with H2F radar by Bomber Command. The dramatic tension comes from a Scot "boffin" who doesn't mind increasing magnetron power to 2000 watts as long as the improved ground images will enable the Brits to accurately bomb military targets and not civilian housing estates. Almost all the characters Please provide some details about this old telly series. David H ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > In a local thrift store I found a VHS cassette of an episode > from a British TV series. The episode is #6 of "Pathfinders". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > David H > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://tinyurl.com/lhyzsp > > In a local thrift store I found a VHS cassette of an episode > > from a British TV series. The episode is #6 of "Pathfinders". [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Maybe better - I can tell you how it is to pilot a Lanc! Must have been around 1957 from RAF Cottesmore I think. Wondeful experience. Surreyman On Jul 2, 11:07 am, Surreyman <alandavid.spen...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > > In a local thrift store I found a VHS cassette of an episode > > > from a British TV series. The episode is #6 of "Pathfinders". [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > - Show quoted text - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So you finally did it ! You and your co-pilot. I guess the Brits did the night bombing because they were radar equipped. I gather the magnetron unit was shock proof and could survive a flak hit as well as a crash on the ground. In the video episode there was great concern that the Jerries would obtain one and copy the technology. As for the 2000 watts of power, I suppose that applies to the valve (vacuum tube) supporting the magnetron. Blitz survivors like you are becoming scarce. Cheers, David H ~~~~~ > On Jul 2, 11:07 am, Surreyman <alandavid.spen...@googlemail.com> > wrote: ......................... > > Maybe better - I can tell you how it is to pilot a Lanc! > > Must have been around 1957 from RAF Cottesmore I think. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Cheers, David H > ~~~~~ Did the Lanc have a formal copilot? I have a dim memory that it didn't. My impression is that night bombing started more as a survival mechanism. Early-war British bombers couldn't get thru to German targets without heavy losses due to the daytime defenses. It continued later at least partly because the more heavily-armed (and built?) B-17's & B-24's were somewhat better suited to surviving German daytime defenses. But this is an occasionally hotly-debated topic that I'm probably risking flames by oversimplifying.... 8-). Jim H. "Entropy never sleeps. Do y'all?" > Did the Lanc have a formal copilot? I have a dim memory that it > didn't. Nope, they had a flight engineer but no co-pilot although those used post war by the Canadians in the Maritime patrol role got a copilot. > My impression is that night bombing started more as a survival > mechanism. Early-war British bombers couldn't get thru to German > targets without heavy losses due to the daytime defenses. In 1940 attempts at daylight bombing resulted in loss rates of up to 80% Keith On Jul 3, 7:51 am, David H Singanas <davidholi...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jul 2, 11:07 am, Surreyman <alandavid.spen...@googlemail.com> (snipped) My impression is that night bombing started more as a survival mechanism. Early-war British bombers couldn't get thru to German targets without heavy losses due to the daytime defenses. It continued later at least partly because the more heavily-armed (and built?) B-17's & B-24's were somewhat better suited to surviving German daytime defenses. But this is an occasionally hotly-debated topic that I'm probably risking flames by oversimplifying.... 8-). Jim H. "Entropy never sleeps. Do y'all?" # Both the British and American bombers suffered huge losses during daytime raids. The Americans had their worst time on the Sweinfurt run. So many losses that they gave up daylight bombing until the P-51 was built to go with them and protect them from the German fighters. But the overall effect of round the clock bombing was not to worry about accuracy so much as to make the Germans allocate resources to combating the raids...the 'dehousing' effect was effective. Pity they don't do this Afghanistan and Pakistan and finish it quickly. Being nice to goatherders doesn't sound like good policy when they hide the gunmen. > On Jul 3, 7:51 am, David H Singanas <davidholi...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Jul 2, 11:07 am, Surreyman <alandavid.spen...@googlemail.com> > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Being nice to goatherders doesn't sound like good policy when they hide the > gunmen. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I am glad the group is picking up on this subject. I have two remarks: (1) IIRC the B-24 was used in the Mediterranean and the Pacific but not over the Third Reich. (2) Afghan peasants don't give a damn about religion and politics. They want work, food, clothing and shelter whether it comes from foreigners (the Taliban, the NATO troops) or from Kabul. Our USMC Marines are IMHO making a mistake to enter settlements and then turn them over to Afghan police personnel. I guess the Afghan army is not big enough yet to permanently occupy Helmand province. Cheers, David H ~~~~~ >> But the overall effect of round the clock bombing was not to worry >> about accuracy so much as to make the Germans allocate resources to >> combating the raids...the 'dehousing' effect was effective. 'Dehousing'? I don't understand. >> Pity they don't do this Afghanistan and Pakistan and finish it >> quickly > . >> Being nice to goatherders doesn't sound like good policy when they >> hide the gunmen. As you might recall, the Russians destroyed villages at will to keep them from hiding gunmen, and that didn't turn out to be effective. I'd like to get a discussion going on the whole subject of reprisals and how effective they really are. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > They want work, food, clothing and shelter whether it comes from > foreigners (the Taliban, the NATO troops) or from Kabul. I agree; see above. > Our USMC Marines are IMHO making a mistake to enter > settlements and then turn them over to Afghan police personnel. > I guess the Afghan army is not big enough yet to permanently > occupy Helmand province. That, and are Afghan security forces themselves going to despoil the peasants? I've heard that the Afghan government is so corrupt that it has little credibility. I've also heard that throughout history any central government in Afghanistan has largely been disregarded; the local tribal system forms the basis of this society. Same thing with Somalia. Dennis >>> But the overall effect of round the clock bombing was not to worry >>> about accuracy so much as to make the Germans allocate resources to >>> combating the raids...the 'dehousing' effect was effective. > > 'Dehousing'? I don't understand. Text of the 'Dehousing Paper'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehousing  SignatureWilliam Black (snipped) > I've heard that the Afghan government is so corrupt that it has > little credibility. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Dennis. Buying favours is as old as history. It's * the * natural culture of all cultures. What is false and artificial is democracy. ..another word for mob rule of the ignorant. Even the Greeks thought it only applicable to small cities where everybody knew each other. Socrates was condemned to death democratically by his neighbours for corrupting the youth of his neighbours for making them think...that's mob rule. Be suspicious of any country calling themselves a democratic republic...mob rule of the ignorant is what you actually get and the majority actually think it works for them. Calling tribal custom corruption is not really understanding culture at all. The West wants to impose a false failed system on to a people who find *their* cultural system * works * for them. The only job we have in Afghanistan is to kill the terrorists who use it as a base camp...and all who help them. If it's just money, we can buy their produce and guarantee a price... that's cheaper than warfare. If they refuse then they are collaborating and deserve to be bombed and eliminated. The choice is theirs to make and can be pointed out to them. Remember what we did to Caan, and the death of French residents just to get at Germans stationed there. > Buying favours is as old as history. It's * the * natural culture > of all cultures. What is false and artificial is democracy. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > democratic republic...mob rule of the ignorant is what you actually > get and the majority actually think it works for them. 'Democratic republic' in modern times means a Communist totalitarian state. The DR of Congo isn't Communist AFAIK but that government is hardly impressive. I suppose the difference between the mob rule that Aristotle and Plato condemned and modern democracy is that what we have now is representative democracy, which Plato discussed in his last book, and also that we have the rule of law, checks and balances. Also a civic culture to support that, as de Tocqueville observed, and this is where the 3rd world 'democracies' usually fall short. > Calling tribal custom corruption is not really understanding culture > at all. The West wants to impose a false failed system on to a people > who find *their* cultural system * works * for them. That wasn't my point. I was calling the *central* government hopelessly corrupt, which means the people would be even less inclined than usual to accept it. Indeed their culture works very well for them, and we shouldn't try to change that. History amply teaches the folly of that in this particular case! > The only job we have in Afghanistan is to kill the terrorists who use > it as a base camp...and all who help them. If it's just money, we > can buy their produce and guarantee a price... that's cheaper than > warfare. If they refuse then they are collaborating and deserve to be > bombed and eliminated. The choice is theirs to make and can be pointed > out to them. Not quite so simple. The Taliban intimidate the people into supporting them. They have to have security so that they have a real choice in the matter. > Remember what we did to Caan, and the death of French residents just > to get at Germans stationed there. Yup. I wonder how the folks in Caen feel about that nowdays. I know a French fellow who has early memories of the liberation of France who hates the memory of war, and doesn't seem to consider that we did it to rid them of the Nazis. I don't know whether that's the proper comparison here. Look at what Israel did to Lebanon over Hezbollah and Gaza over Hamas. Aside from beating the crap out of their enemy as much as possible, they wanted to get the civilians caught in the middle and forced to accept H and H by force of arms to get rid of them somehow. Looks as though some of that is happening. Dennis > > Buying favours is as old as history. It's * the * natural culture > > of all cultures. What is false and artificial is democracy. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Dennis ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dennis, When I was ashore at St.Nazaire in the 60's, the locals treated me with an icy contempt. I attributed this to the Brit bombing of the German submarine pens there. Traveling inland to Nantes, the local attitude toward the English-speaking distinctly improved. I think you're fouling a good thread to bring up the Hezbollah, Lebanon and the Jewish snafu and fubar in that operation. David H ~~~~~~~ David H Singanas wrote: > When I was ashore at St.Nazaire in the 60's, the locals treated me > with an icy contempt. I attributed this to the Brit bombing of the > German submarine pens there. Traveling inland to Nantes, the > local attitude toward the English-speaking distinctly improved. Interesting. > I think you're fouling a good thread to bring up the Hezbollah, > Lebanon > and the Jewish snafu and fubar in that operation. I agree that the Lebanon war was snafu and fubar. Israel's attitude appears to be that if the civilians get beaten up, they'll stop tolerating groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. Whether that is really effective is an excellent topic for discussion! We practitioners of 'dehousing' don't have a lot of room to talk about morality. Besides, Israel is fighting for survival. I *don't* think that would be the right approach for Afghanistan! Better would be more like shoring up the local economy and culture and helping them get proper security, so that the Taliban and al-Qaeda can't extort what they want from the locals. I wonder whether a better way to treat the "war" on terror wouldn't be to treat it the way you would organized crime, rather than like a traditional war. Dennis > I wonder whether a better way to treat the "war" on terror wouldn't > be to treat it the way you would organized crime, rather than like a > traditional war. I've been saying that for almost eight years now, nobody's listening. There's much more money to be made treating it as a military problem... SignatureWilliam Black >> I wonder whether a better way to treat the "war" on terror wouldn't >> be to treat it the way you would organized crime, rather than like a >> traditional war. > > I've been saying that for almost eight years now, nobody's listening. I wish I'd noticed it! It makes a lot more sense. With the attention we give the terrorists, we play into their hands. They want us to be afraid, to be terrorized, to waste our resources on them. OBL himself ran the numbers. > There's much more money to be made treating it as a military problem... I suppose. I'd like to think you could make money solving the world's other outstanding problems, though. Dennis >>> I wonder whether a better way to treat the "war" on terror wouldn't >>> be to treat it the way you would organized crime, rather than like a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I wish I'd noticed it! It makes a lot more sense. In fact it has been British government policy for almost as long. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_terrorism#British_objections_to_the_phrase_. 22war_on_terrorism.22 SignatureWilliam Black > SPierce wrote:(snipped) >> Calling tribal custom corruption is not really understanding culture >> at all. The West wants to impose a false failed system on to a people [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hopelessly corrupt, which means the people would be even less inclined > than usual to accept it. Western democratic governments are corrupted by lobby groups who promise money for favoured legislation. It's corruption no matter how you spin the language. You could even say it is hopelessly corrupt because the system cannot work without donated money. The Greek ideal cannot work in large sophisticated communities. Daily reports of corruption everywhere in the West testify to this. The British for instance are in a state of despair over it. An influx of un-British people since 1948 has Zimbabwe'd the country...sorry to use that term but it gives the idea better than anything else. I think the world will resort to Fascism just to regain some order out of the anarchy that's spread from the universities since the 1960s. The corruption has been like boiling frogs slowly so they don't notice the change in temperature. An influx of un-British > people since 1948 has Zimbabwe'd the country...sorry to use that term but > it gives the idea better than anything else. There seem to be very few 'un-British people involved in the current scandal. Most of the bankers and MPs involved look very British indeed to me. By the way, would you like to define 'un-British for us all. It's a term you don't see used much. SignatureWilliam Black > An influx of un-British >> people since 1948 has Zimbabwe'd the country...sorry to use that term but [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > By the way, would you like to define 'un-British for us all. It's a term > you don't see used much. I see the current scandal as the endgame of a long period of intellectual decline. From my view it was when the Empire Windrush landed at Tilbury in 1948. Importing third world people into a bankrupt country dependent American welfare payments was not good thinking. It's still going on...without the welfare payments from America. Brainless behaviour. Nothing seems to have gone right for the country since that time. The country and the people were fine during the war. They knew who they were and what they had to do. A cup of tea was all that was needed to keep civilised behaviour going. And it seemed then to find extraordinary brilliance in every nook and cranny. There is no civilised behaviour in Britain anymore because the word itself has no meaning in the minds of the people. It has now become like Zimbabwe because the people have become like Zimbabweans. The bankers themselves think like Zimbabweans. That's what I meant. >> By the way, would you like to define 'un-British for us all. It's a >> term >> you don't see used much. >> William Black Just noticed this little gem. Can you imagine anyone British behaving with this level of intelligence during the war. And then a newspaper actually compounding the idiocy. I cringe when I think of British intelligence now. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25735843-12377,00.html >>> By the way, would you like to define 'un-British for us all. It's a >>> term [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > now. > http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25735843-12377,00.html Why isn't the man allowed a perfectly normal private life? It's not as if he's going to be stalking the night wearing a dinner jacket and clutching a Luger pistol. He's not even a career spook, he's a career diplomat. SignatureWilliam Black >>>> By the way, would you like to define 'un-British for us all. It's a >>>> term [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It's not as if he's going to be stalking the night wearing a dinner jacket > and clutching a Luger pistol. A Walther, if you please, not an unreliable Luger. SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) >>>> By the way, would you like to define 'un-British for us all. >>>> It's a term [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Why isn't the man allowed a perfectly normal private life? Outside of his supposedly secret job, why not indeed? > It's not as if he's going to be stalking the night wearing a dinner > jacket and clutching a Luger pistol. One would like to hope not! > He's not even a career spook, he's a career diplomat. And therin lies the problem IMO. We should be encouraging a proper secret service if we are indeed to obtain the intelligence we need to operate throughout the world without making foolish mistakes like Iraq, which was completely due to a faulty intelligence service. The American CIA was equally deficient and may be still! SignatureHarry Merrick. > >> By the way, would you like to define 'un-British for us all. It's a > >> term [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > compounding the idiocy. I cringe when I think of British intelligence now. > http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25735843-12377,00.... Are you really a peado or is it just my imagination, Stanley "fierce" Pierce.... >> An influx of un-British >>> people since 1948 has Zimbabwe'd the country...sorry to use that term [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Zimbabweans. The bankers themselves think like Zimbabweans. That's what > I meant. I see. You're stark raving bonkers, but with some nasty racist overtones. SignatureWilliam Black >>> An influx of un-British >>>> people since 1948 has Zimbabwe'd the country...sorry to use that term [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > You're stark raving bonkers, but with some nasty racist overtones. From that response I feel certain you are a product of post-war British education and most likely from a non white Commonwealth Country. >>>> An influx of un-British >>>>> people since 1948 has Zimbabwe'd the country...sorry to use that term [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > From that response I feel certain you are a product of post-war British > education and most likely from a non white Commonwealth Country. It all depends on how you view Yorkshire. SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) >>>>> An influx of un-British >>>>>> people since 1948 has Zimbabwe'd the country...sorry to use that term [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > It all depends on how you view Yorkshire. And as for 'post war education', any one who suffered pre war education (well, pre the 1944 Education Act) will now be well over 80. Our corrupt politicians and bankers mostly look reasonably Anglo-Saxon, sound as if they're public school educated and none of them seem terribly Zimbabwean at all. SignatureWilliam Black (snipped) > Our corrupt politicians and bankers mostly look reasonably Anglo-Saxon, > sound as if they're public school educated and none of them seem terribly > Zimbabwean at all. That's because you don't see as I do how Africanised they have become in their behavour. Zimbabwe is the example. If you are not English born you probably don't see the difference since 1948. British people overall are now more familiar with African culture than their own. Politicians know instinctively how to tap into it to extract a benefit. Zimbabwe is more relevent than you think. British politicians now don't even know that their financial thievery of public money is 'wrong'. That is African. It was unknown in British public life before Africans arrived. The sense of shame that Christian teaching enabled has been lost...African ethics filled the void. > (snipped) >> Our corrupt politicians and bankers mostly look reasonably Anglo-Saxon, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If you are not English born you probably don't see the difference since > 1948. As others have pointed out, I was born in England. Were you? Your English usage is a touch 'Germanic'... > British people overall are now more familiar with African culture > than their own. Cite please. > Zimbabwe is more relevent than you think. British politicians now don't > even know that their financial thievery of public money is 'wrong'. That > is > African. Well, yes they did, or they wouldn't have given the money back. The bankers didn't though... > It was unknown in British public life before Africans arrived. > The sense of shame that Christian teaching enabled has been lost...African > ethics filled the void. That must explain Lloyd George's selling of peerages and the Tranby Croft Scandal... SignatureWilliam Black > > (snipped) > >> Our corrupt politicians and bankers mostly look reasonably Anglo-Saxon, [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - Show quoted text - The links with African culture, immigration etc., are of course rubbish. But, indeed, British political and financial life has most certainly gone 'Zimbabwean' in recent years. Honour and duty - amazingly largely prevalent until not so long ago - has largely diminished. Very sad to see. Surreyman > > > (snipped) > > >> Our corrupt politicians and bankers mostly look reasonably Anglo-Saxon, [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Surreyman ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Which brings us to the conclusion that the NP may have perhaps one shot at #10 Downing Street before the Yorkshire crowd get their majority in Commons. Cheers, David H ~~~~ > But, indeed, British political and financial life has most certainly > gone 'Zimbabwean' in recent years. > Honour and duty - amazingly largely prevalent until not so long ago - > has largely diminished. I perceive no difference in political life in the UK. A few years ago a man who is now a Tory MP and was then a Tory EC rep boasted about his ability to cheat on his expenses. Nobody noticed... Well, a few did... http://www.whitbygazette.co.uk/letters/Its-a-funny-old-world.5402194.jp SignatureWilliam Black > (snipped) >> Our corrupt politicians and bankers mostly look reasonably Anglo-Saxon, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If you are not English born you probably don't see the difference since > 1948. Geez, lad, William Black is as English as Blanding's pig. SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) >> (snipped) >>> Our corrupt politicians and bankers mostly look reasonably [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Geez, lad, William Black is as English as Blanding's pig. LoL, I had to Google "Blanding's pig". I would have said, "Yorkshire pudding'. <g> cheers.....Jeff >>> (snipped) >>>> Our corrupt politicians and bankers mostly look reasonably [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > cheers.....Jeff There is nothing about Black that is English except his use of the language. I bet his family has no registrations in any parish register, and won't even be in the 1901 census. What I'm saying is, his family background is from a non white Commonwealth country since 1948. He has no emotional connection with Britain at all but uses his birth there as his label. His emotional attachment is with his parents birthplace. It shows in his writing and the post-war media use of evasive language...except when to call other Englishmen stark raving bonkers for telling the truth. It's a big giveaway. > >>> (snipped) > >>>> Our corrupt politicians and bankers mostly look reasonably [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > evasive language...except when to call other Englishmen stark raving bonkers > for telling the truth. It's a big giveaway. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I find it impossible to believe that the English ever stop being English. I have been in over 40 countries and steamed 3 times around the planet via the Indian Ocean. The English are always the English whether they live in South Africa, India, or Egypt. Americans OTOH have the ability to "go native" and mimic other nationalities by desire and not necessity. The reason being that American "culture" is plastic and malleable to fit the circumstances. David H ~~~~~ > > "Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesf...@cogeco.ca> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Some nations have a sense of identity ......... :-)) Surreyman >> I have been in over 40 countries and steamed 3 times around the planet >> via the Indian Ocean. The English are always the English whether they [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Some nations have a sense of identity ......... :-)) Some have too much. The Irish, the French, most South American countries... SignatureWilliam Black So I looked at the script It was six weeks filming in the desert. No girls, no dialogue, just guys with guns. They said "Do you want wages or a percentage?" It looked like a certain turkey. When they came the second time I was ready. I haven't had to work since... Eli Wallach on his roles in "The Magnificent Seven" and "The Good the Bad and The Ugly >>>> (snipped) >>>>> Our corrupt politicians and bankers mostly look reasonably [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > other Englishmen stark raving bonkers for telling the truth. It's a > big giveaway. What exactly has made _you_ an expert on the English ? An Aussie, aren't you ? cheers.....Jeff effrey Hamilton wrote: > Andrew Chaplin wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > cheers.....Jeff But describing someone who comes from Yorkshire as 'As English as Yorkshire pudding' may be open to misinterpretation. Yorkshire is a political entity in its own right, although calls for liberation are rather limited... http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=104396628 > effrey Hamilton wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=104396628 Whoa, there William, *_everyone_*, recognizes *Yorkshire Pudding* as the *epitome* of being British. Don't they ? cheers......Jeff >> effrey Hamilton wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Whoa, there William, *_everyone_*, recognizes *Yorkshire Pudding* as the > *epitome* of being British. Don't they ? The usurpation of local foods by vast industrial food manufacturing conglomerates is one of the major preoccupations of the EC. The huge industrially exploited Yorkshire pudding batter lakes and their vast processing factories, filled with millions of Yorkshirewomen beating them into shape, are threatened by these unscrupulous multinational combines. Together we will destroy them, and then the people of Yorkshire can breathe free, knowing that their heritage is safe once more... Erm... Didn't all this start because I'm not supposed to be English? Where are the racist tossers when you need them... SignatureWilliam Black So I looked at the script It was six weeks filming in the desert. No girls, no dialogue, just guys with guns. They said "Do you want wages or a percentage?" It looked like a certain turkey. When they came the second time I was ready. I haven't had to work since... Eli Wallach on his roles in "The Magnificent Seven" and "The Good the Bad and The Ugly >>> effrey Hamilton wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Where are the racist tossers when you need them... Undoubtedly making *fake* Yorkshire puddings, the scoundrels.......Long live the White Rose...... cheers.......Jeff >> But describing someone who comes from Yorkshire as 'As English as >> Yorkshire pudding' may be open to misinterpretation. God knows how that could be misinterpreted. Yorkshire is my spiritual home although only got there by the blessing of the Luftwaffe. Hebden Bridge still keeps my Stan Pierce " memories of 1940 " on their webpage. I actually lived in a National Trust cottage beside Gibson Mill stepping stones...all to myself to play pirates on. What kid wouldn't give his eye-tooth to live there now. > >> But describing someone who comes from Yorkshire as 'As English as > >> Yorkshire pudding' may be open to misinterpretation. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > stones...all to myself to play pirates on. What kid wouldn't give his > eye-tooth to live there now. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So you were sent to the country during the Blitz. I think Spence the Surreyman had to tough it out in London. David H ~~~~~ >>>> But describing someone who comes from Yorkshire as 'As English as >>>> Yorkshire pudding' may be open to misinterpretation. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > So you were sent to the country during the Blitz. More likely flying over it and shot down there... SignatureWilliam Black So I looked at the script It was six weeks filming in the desert. No girls, no dialogue, just guys with guns. They said "Do you want wages or a percentage?" It looked like a certain turkey. When they came the second time I was ready. I haven't had to work since... Eli Wallach on his roles in "The Magnificent Seven" and "The Good the Bad and The Ugly >>> But describing someone who comes from Yorkshire as 'As English as >>> Yorkshire pudding' may be open to misinterpretation. > > God knows how that could be misinterpreted. Yorkshire is my spiritual home > although only got there by the blessing of the Luftwaffe. Were you a pilot or a gunner? Hebden Bridge > still keeps my Stan Pierce " memories of 1940 " on their webpage. I > actually lived in a National Trust cottage beside Gibson Mill stepping > stones...all to myself to play pirates on. What kid wouldn't give his > eye-tooth to live there now. Is there some sort of point to this semi literate rambling? SignatureWilliam Black So I looked at the script It was six weeks filming in the desert. No girls, no dialogue, just guys with guns. They said "Do you want wages or a percentage?" It looked like a certain turkey. When they came the second time I was ready. I haven't had to work since... Eli Wallach on his roles in "The Magnificent Seven" and "The Good the Bad and The Ugly SPierce wrote: > There is nothing about Black that is English except his use of the > language. I bet his family has no registrations in any parish register, > and won't even be in the 1901 census. I almost forgot. 'Black' is reserved for the men I went to school with. You may refer to me as either Mr Black or William. SPierce wrote: > There is nothing about Black that is English except his use of the > language. I bet his family has no registrations in any parish register, > and won't even be in the 1901 census. Interestingly, I found my maternal grandfather on it. I even mentioned it here at the time. > SPierce wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I even mentioned it here at the time. So that's the connection. In the army, sent to India and met your grandmother there. >> SPierce wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > So that's the connection. In the army, sent to India and met your > grandmother there. Actually he met my maternal grandmother after being wounded in WWI and in hospital in Hull. She was a seamstress mending officer's uniforms. As far as anyone is aware nobody from my family went to India until my father went there in WWII. And before you draw any more silly conclusions for your deranged fantasies, my mother was in the Women's Land Army in WWII and only recently received an award from the Lord Lieutenant of Yorkshire for that service. SignatureWilliam Black So I looked at the script It was six weeks filming in the desert. No girls, no dialogue, just guys with guns. They said "Do you want wages or a percentage?" It looked like a certain turkey. When they came the second time I was ready. I haven't had to work since... Eli Wallach on his roles in "The Magnificent Seven" and "The Good the Bad and The Ugly >>> (snipped) >>>> Our corrupt politicians and bankers mostly look reasonably [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > LoL, I had to Google "Blanding's pig". I would have said, "Yorkshire > pudding'. <g> I needed an English equivalent of the expression "as Irish as Paddy's pig." That should have been "Blandings' pig," of course, I misplaced the apostrophe. SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) > An influx of un-British > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -- > William Black And our corruption is self-measured - it's peanuts compared with much of the world. Surreyman :>> But the overall effect of round the clock bombing was not to worry :>> about accuracy so much as to make the Germans allocate resources to :>> combating the raids...the 'dehousing' effect was effective. : : 'Dehousing'? I don't understand. 'Dehousing' was the name given to RAF terror bombing aimed at incinerating women and children in preference to going after industry, transport, and other military targets. :>> Pity they don't do this Afghanistan and Pakistan and finish it :>> quickly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : I'd like to get a discussion going on the whole subject of :reprisals and how effective they really are. Generally counterproductive unless you can target it specifically AND it is seen as 'just retribution' by the audience. SignatureYou are What you do When it counts. Fred J. McCall wrote: > :>> But the overall effect of round the clock bombing was not to worry > :>> about accuracy so much as to make the Germans allocate resources to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > incinerating women and children in preference to going after industry, > transport, and other military targets. This is Fred's view. History proves that this isn't actually the case, but as has been shown many times before, Fred isn't open to rational argument on this one... SignatureWilliam Black :Fred J. McCall wrote: : [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : :This is Fred's view. Yes. It is also Winston Churchill's view (see the memo from Churchill to Harris after Dresden). :History proves that this isn't actually the case, but as has been shown :many times before, Fred isn't open to rational argument on this one... No, history proves that it *IS* actually the case, but Wee Willie is in denial. Churchill saw nothing wrong with a policy of butchering as many German civilians as possible, as witnessed by his memos calling for "drenching the Ruhr in poison gas". Now revisionists like Willie want to deny it all. Signature"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." -- Socrates > :Fred J. McCall wrote: > ::> Dennis <tsalagi18NOS...@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > soul with evil." > -- Socrates People forget. Of course we bombed whole cities during WWII, as they did ours. And every time we heard of a successful mass bombing raid on the radio, we cheered. It was war. We were xxxxxxxxx suffering. So were they. If you'd made these luvvie comments dueing WWII you'd have been shot or worse. Peace! :-)) Surreyman >> :Fred J. McCall wrote: >> ::> Dennis <tsalagi18NOS...@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> for "drenching the Ruhr in poison gas". Now revisionists like Willie >> want to deny it all. > People forget. > Of course we bombed whole cities during WWII, as they did ours. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you'd made these luvvie comments dueing WWII you'd have been shot > or worse. I wonder what the Germans though about the mass bombing of British cities or if they have breast beating imbeciles berating them on a regular basis about how dreadful it was for them to do that. And once more, for those of you who believe Fred's nonsense about burning civilians being a matter of deliberate policy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehousing SignatureWilliam Black >>>> Fred J. McCall wrote: >>>>>> Dennis <tsalagi18NOS...@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehousing The Nazi had a policy of Dehousing too. *Coventrieren*, to raze a city to the ground. Heres an article: 20 Things You Should Know About... The Blitz In Coventry from this page: http://www.cwn.org.uk/heritagedays/2000/09/000906-blitz-facts.htm Here are just a couple of points. The Nazi bombing raid of 14 November 1940 changed the face of Coventry forever, with the cathedral being destroyed. Some things you might not know about that day. a.. The air raid on Coventry on the night of November 14, 1940 was the single most concentrated attack on a British city in World War II. b.. Afterwards, Nazi propagandists coined a new word in German - Coventrieren, to raze a city to the ground. c.. There is more at this one page site. cheers....Jeff >> Fred J. McCall wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Yes. It is also Winston Churchill's view (see the memo from Churchill > to Harris after Dresden). Could _you_ post a cite, for this statement please ? >> History proves that this isn't actually the case, but as has been >> shown many times before, Fred isn't open to rational argument on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > for "drenching the Ruhr in poison gas". Now revisionists like Willie > want to deny it all. > Fred J. McCall wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > shown many times before, Fred isn't open to rational argument on this > one... Fred dislikes Canadians *and* the British although he calls _them_ the English, Fred's mama was of German extraction and so I believe Fred suffers from a somewhat *divided allegiance* when it comes to WWII. cheers.....Jeff > I am glad the group is picking up on this subject. > I have two remarks: > (1) IIRC the B-24 was used in the Mediterranean and the Pacific but > not over the Third Reich. You recall incorrectly. The 392nd Bombardment group flew B-24's out of Wendling Air Base in East Anglia on raids over Germany. Additionally B-24 units based in Italy regularly raided southern Germany. > (2) Afghan peasants don't give a damn about religion and politics. > They want work, food, clothing and shelter whether it comes from > foreigners (the Taliban, the NATO troops) or from Kabul. History suggests otherwise, Afghan peasants tend to be somewhat xenophobic and hostile towards foreigners. This has been noted by invaders starting with Alexander The Great. Keith > (2) Afghan peasants don't give a damn about religion and politics. > They want work, food, clothing and shelter whether it comes from > foreigners (the Taliban, the NATO troops) or from Kabul. That shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how Pathan society in particular works, and it's the Pathans (or Pashtuns) you've got to get on your side to make this work. Food, clothing and shelter are an irrelevance because 'Pashtunwali' requires that someone will always give you all three, but if you break the rules of 'Pashtunwali' someone will kill you... See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali for some details although it gets horribly hung up with the various different terms for the same thing and talks about 'militia', and a 'Lashkar' certainly isn't one... SignatureWilliam Black > On Jul 3, 7:51 am, David H Singanas <davidholi...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Jul 2, 11:07 am, Surreyman <alandavid.spen...@googlemail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Only one set of controls if I remember rightly. Surreyman On 3 July, 14:39, "Jim H." <ironduff...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 3, 7:51 am, David H Singanas <davidholi...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On Jul > 2, 11:07 am, Surreyman <alandavid.spen...@googlemail.com> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > German daytime defenses. But this is an occasionally hotly-debated > topic that I'm probably risking flames by oversimplifying.... 8-). Only one set of controls if I remember rightly. ----------------------------------------------- Was that the case in the transport and patrol developments such as the Lancastrian, York and Shackleton? SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) > On 3 July, 14:39, "Jim H." <ironduff...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Jul 3, 7:51 am, David H Singanas <davidholi...@yahoo.com> wrote:> On [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Was that the case in the transport and patrol developments such as the > Lancastrian, York and Shackleton? No, the logic was simple and brutal. The chances of a night bomber receiving a hit which disabled the pilot but left the aircraft airworthy and the co-pilot uninjured was slight. Given that pilot training was a bottleneck it was simply more cost effective to only have one pilot. The other variants had a co-pilot as did some post war Lancasters. Keith Keith > Was that the case in the transport and patrol developments such as the > Lancastrian, York and Shackleton? Well I know someone who described his most boring job in a thirty year career in the RAF as 'co-pilot of an AEW Shackelton'... SignatureWilliam Black >> Was that the case in the transport and patrol developments such as the >> Lancastrian, York and Shackleton? > > Well I know someone who described his most boring job in a thirty year > career in the RAF as 'co-pilot of an AEW Shackelton'... C'mon, William. You know and I know that such pronunciations are not necessarily indicative of what was on the flight deck SignatureAndrew Chaplin SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO (If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.) >>> Was that the case in the transport and patrol developments such as the >>> Lancastrian, York and Shackleton? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > C'mon, William. You know and I know that such pronunciations are not > necessarily indicative of what was on the flight deck True, but this was in a conversation where he was praising the virtues of the Lincoln, which he described as the most wonderful aircraft he ever flew. He went on to be an engineer at Vincent, but after they stopped building bikes... I met him about twenty years ago when he was teaching Air Cadets aeronautics and I was teaching them about radio. SignatureWilliam Black On 4 July, 12:47, "Andrew Chaplin" <ab.chap...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote: > On 3 July, 14:39, "Jim H." <ironduff...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Only flew a Shack once out of those - I remember that was dual. Surreyman |
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