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_Marriage And Democracy_

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D. Spencer Hines - 27 Feb 2004 11:33 GMT
"REVIEW & OUTLOOK"

"Marriage and Democracy"
"Bush didn't start this "culture war," and voters should be the ones to
settle it."
Friday, February 27, 2004
The Wall Street Journal

"I have long opposed governmental recognition of same-gender marriages."
So said Bill Clinton in 1996 when he signed into law the Defense of
Marriage Act defining marriage as the "legal union between one man and
one woman."

But for endorsing a constitutional amendment this week founded on the
same definition, President Bush has been vilified.  "Shameful," thunders
Teddy Kennedy.  "The most vile and hateful words ever spoken" by a
President, says constitutional scholar Rosie O'Donnell.

What passes for a page-one "analysis" (that's opinion in disguise) in
the Washington Post asserts that Mr. Bush is eager to "rekindle the
culture wars."

To his foes, Mr. Bush's support for a federal marriage amendment is all
about his unwillingness to buck his "conservative base" in an election
year.  Never mind that the President is doing precisely that with his
recent immigration proposals. And never mind that the politics of this
are hardly certain.  Our sense is that Mr. Bush came to this decision
slowly, almost as a last resort.  It helps to review who staged the
first raid in this "culture war."

About this time last year, Pennsylvania Republican Rick Santorum
provoked outrage when he suggested that if the Supreme Court threw out a
Texas sodomy law on the basis of a right to consensual sex, prohibitions
on gay marriage would go out the window.

In its Lawrence decision soon after, the Supreme Court proved his point.
Notwithstanding declarations that in so ruling the Court was making no
statement about gay marriage, it wasn't long before the Massachusetts
Supreme Court --invoking Lawrence in a 4-3 decision -- ruled that the
state could not deny civil marriage to same-sex couples.  None of this
was by accident: The state litigation had been carefully targeted.

That was where the matter stood when Mr. Bush weighed in during the
State of the Union, warning "activist judges" to cease legislating their
own social views from the bench.  The response?  The Massachusetts court
declared that nothing short of gay marriage, not even civil unions,
would be acceptable.  The Mayor of San Francisco started issuing gay
marriage permits in clear violation of California state law.  And the
courts declined to stop them.

Only then did the President endorse a Federal Marriage Amendment.
Introduced by Colorado Congresswoman Marilyn Musgrave, the model
amendment has two sentences: The first restricts marriage to the union
between a man and a woman; the second enjoins the courts from imposing a
solution.

Now, even some who support a constitutional remedy wonder about the
language.  There is debate about whether the amendment's language would
bar states from endorsing civil unions, which Mr. Bush says they should
be free to do.  We think this entire issue should be decided in the
states, by the people through their elected legislators.  And if the
voters want to alter the definition of marriage as a new social
consensus develops, that should be their democratic right.

But a political debate over gay marriage is precisely what its
supporters do not want.  ******

They are the ones who want to impose a national solution via the courts.
What the President endorses is not a federal solution but a federalist
solution.

In contrast to an executive order or federal law or regulation, a
constitutional amendment requires not only the endorsement of two thirds
of the House and Senate but the assent of the legislatures of
three-quarters of the states.

Amendments are historically difficult to pass, and the odds favor
skepticism about its chances.  But merely by being offered it will serve
as a brushback pitch to the courts that this issue should be settled by
democratic means. ******

Our social and cultural mores are changing rapidly, and accommodations
for gay partners are already common in business and other American
institutions.  When it comes to the legitimate rights that gay Americans
say their exclusion from marriage denies them -- hospital visitation,
inheritance, etc. -- we can think of few that most Americans would not
be willing to redress.

The question is whether this must also take the form of imposing an
unprecedented redefinition of marriage on the majority of Americans who
oppose it.  Even John Kerry and John Edwards claim they don't want gay
marriage.

So why are they not derided as bigots, especially now that Mr. Kerry has
just endorsed a state constitutional amendment prohibiting gay marriage
for Massachusetts?  ******

Plainly it's because their own supporters think these men don't believe
what they feel they must say -- and can be counted on not to back their
words up with action when the crunch comes.  ******

We wish we could count on the courts, especially the Supreme Court, to
understand the need for deference here.  But anyone who has read the
logic of Lawrence, or before that of Romer v. Evans, has to conclude
that the current Supreme Court would all too readily impose its own
views on everyone else.  In the process, it would be happy to overturn
not just the Defense of Marriage Act signed by Mr. Clinton, but also 50
state laws, not to mention hundreds of years of moral and legal
tradition.

As we said after Lawrence, that would ignite a real culture war, roiling
our society for years to come.  In a better world, we could trust our
judges and executives to enforce the law and trust in the process of
building democratic consensus. But on the evidence of recent months, not
anymore.  We have reached a point where a constitutional debate may be
the only thing that will guarantee Americans the right to decide such a
fundamental issue as marriage in a democratic fashion."

The Wall Street Journal
----------------------

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor
Sheila J - 01 Mar 2004 14:18 GMT
> "I have long opposed governmental recognition of same-gender marriages."
> So said Bill Clinton in 1996 when he signed into law the Defense of
> Marriage Act defining marriage as the "legal union between one man and
> one woman."

It may be the only legal union, according to Clinton, but it certainly
is NOT the ONLY union allowed in marriage.... to him.....

I just don't understand why everyone is so up in arms about same sex
marriages.  Who cares.  It's not as if the govt is going to force people
into same sex marriages...they are only allowing those couples who are
ALREADY committed and living common law to enter into a bond.  Why do we
not care when 2 mismatched people  enter into this most holy of unions -
doing it for whatever reasons - and then scream when a loving,  same
-sex couple  attempts to have that same sort of bond?
Why is it ok for someone like Britney Spears to make a mockery of
marriage - getting married on a whim and then divorced on one - and then
NOT ALLOW a male couple who have lived together for 20 years?  Or to not
sanctify a relationship of same-sex parents?  Many children are being
raised (and quite well, I might add) in gay households yet their parents
are being denied the right to make the family legal.

Just seems quite sad.  Just imagine if all the time and energy that is
being invested on this topic could be directed towards something truly
worthwhile........
ArtKramr - 01 Mar 2004 14:32 GMT
>Subject: Re: _Marriage And Democracy_
>From: Sheila J wolseley@shaw.ca
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>being invested on this topic could be directed towards something truly
>worthwhile........

Keep the government the cheap politicians the hell out of our lives.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
Andrew Chaplin - 01 Mar 2004 15:18 GMT
> It may be the only legal union, according to Clinton, but it certainly
> is NOT the ONLY union allowed in marriage.... to him.....
>
> I just don't understand why everyone is so up in arms about same sex
> marriages.  

They afraid they'll have to be party to shotgun same-sex weddings.

> Who cares.  It's not as if the govt is going to force people
> into same sex marriages...they are only allowing those couples who are
> ALREADY committed and living common law to enter into a bond.  

I wonder if you remember, Sheila, the PO I who was button-holed by the
CBC as he left H.M. Dockyard Halifax to get his reaction to the
Supreme Court's having struck down the exclusion of homosexuals from
the CF. His words: "I don't care, as long as they don't make it
mandatory."

> Why do we
> not care when 2 mismatched people  enter into this most holy of unions -
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> being invested on this topic could be directed towards something truly
> worthwhile........

Even from a self interested view, the opposition to same-sex marriage
is unjustified. People in stable relationships are happier and
healthier than they would otherwise be. Happier and healthier people
take less time off work and place less of a demand on the health care
system, while they earn more and pay correspondingly more tax. It is,
therefore, in my interest as a taxpayer that they be allowed to marry
if that is what will make them happier.
--
Andrew Chaplin
In an exclusive union with the same woman since 1983
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Tron Furu - 01 Mar 2004 15:24 GMT
> I just don't understand why everyone is so up in arms about same sex
> marriages.  Who cares.

1. The homophobes of varying shades.
2. The people who grumble at any change (89 % of all opposition to anything)
3. The people who get a monopoly broken.

Marriage is a biological/social union. With SSM these two dimensions are
separated, making marriage a social union only. the "biological" union is
sort of "ideologically homeless", and besides, politicians no longer have
any apparatus for working with birth rates (economic benefits for married
couples etc.).

> Or to not
> sanctify a relationship of same-sex parents?

In spite of all medical scientific development, there is no such thing.

Many children are being
> raised (and quite well, I might add) in gay households yet their parents
> are being denied the right to make the family legal.

That is why same sex unions are necessary. But might they not have called it
something else than marriage? Just for the sake of variation.

> Just seems quite sad.  Just imagine if all the time and energy that is
> being invested on this topic could be directed towards something truly
> worthwhile........

How true.

T
Dick Wisan - 01 Mar 2004 16:26 GMT
Tron Furu tronfuru@frisurf.no says...

>"Sheila J" <wolseley@shaw.ca> skrev
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>That is why same sex unions are necessary. But might they not have called it
>something else than marriage? Just for the sake of variation.

I wonder just how much of the heat on the issue is a matter of the word.
If it would reduce the friction, I'd be happy to give up the word,
"marriage", but I suspect we'd be stuck with "legal marriage" for a
lot of cases.  

My idea is to accept the claim that marriage is a sacrament, and add
that the state has no business issuing sacraments.  Whether the package
of rights and duties that homosexual (just finished writing in the
euphemisms thread) couples need is the same as what heterosexual
ones need, I'm not sure, but there's no reason why there mightn't
be some variety in the available packages.  To make a "marriage", you'd
need the blessing (and ritual as specified) of a religious official,
but it's up to each church to decide what to so bless.  Even if
county judges had to give up marrying people, I'm sure people who
desire it could always find some sect willing to oblige.

Signature

R. N. (Dick) Wisan  - Email: wisanr@catskill.net
                   - Snail: 37 Clinton Street, Oneonta NY 13820, U.S.A.
                   - Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax.

a.spencer3 - 01 Mar 2004 17:29 GMT
> > "I have long opposed governmental recognition of same-gender marriages."
> > So said Bill Clinton in 1996 when he signed into law the Defense of
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> being invested on this topic could be directed towards something truly
> worthwhile........

I know I'm as guilty as many, but at least discussing Iraq did involve
current British history!

Surreyman
Sheila J - 01 Mar 2004 18:24 GMT
> I know I'm as guilty as many, but at least discussing Iraq did involve
> current British history!
>
> Surreyman

This is HISTORY in the making...and will redefine not only how we look
at families in the future, but could have implications on how we study
families of the past.....
Paul J Gans - 02 Mar 2004 03:35 GMT
In alt.history.british Sheila J <wolseley@shaw.ca> wrote:

>> I know I'm as guilty as many, but at least discussing Iraq did involve
>> current British history!
>>
>> Surreyman

>This is HISTORY in the making...and will redefine not only how we look
>at families in the future, but could have implications on how we study
>families of the past.....

His point is that these postings are crossposted to

  alt.history.british
  alt.politics.british
  soc.culture.british
  soc.history.medieval

I suspect you are posting from soc.history.medieval.  I'm responding
from alt.history.british, and why are the other two on the list.

(They aren't any more, I've removed them.)

This marriage bit seems to be a singularly American business.
And the history of families both now and in the past is much
stranger than we normally think.

  ---- Paul J. Gans
erilar - 02 Mar 2004 16:19 GMT
> > I know I'm as guilty as many, but at least discussing Iraq did involve
> > current British history!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> at families in the future, but could have implications on how we study
> families of the past....

As a group interested in medieval history, people here should be aware
of how RECENTLY the church butted into marriage "ceremonies". All this
ranting that's going on about the historical "sanctity of marriage" just
goes to show the general ignorance of historical fact.

And for a change, I'm even leaving all the newsgroups I don't subscribe
to in the headings.

Signature

Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no such thing as too many books. Bookshelves, on the other hand . . .
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo

John Cartmell - 02 Mar 2004 18:12 GMT
> As a group interested in medieval history, people here should be aware
> of how RECENTLY the church butted into marriage "ceremonies". All this
> ranting that's going on about the historical "sanctity of marriage" just
> goes to show the general ignorance of historical fact.

And the state butted in even more recently because the church made a pig's
ear of the whole thing and caused a dynastic upheaval (amongst other
things).

As I understand it marriage has been a ceremony sanctified by the couple
and community before God. 'Sanctified' does *not* necessitate the presence
of a church but Elizabeth's requirements of the Church to keep records was
a *good thing* at a time movement across communities was increasing and
following the problems generated by the Church allowing clandestine
marriage.

All that Church or State should be doing is acting as recorders of a
sanctified agreement. Of course both then jump in for excellent reasons and
make breaking that agreement difficult (because guess who picks up the
pieces and the cost esp if kids are involved?), forbid the procreation
elsehow (ditto), forbid sexual encounters that cross marital lines (ditto)
and give tax and inheritance incentives because that saves the state money
and bother.

Same sex 'marriages' are total anachronisms and Church/State acceptance of
such things should be resisted at all costs if only on the grounds of
avoiding the acceptance of stupidity! If couples want to make promises to
themselves in front of their friends and their community then there is
nothing stopping them. If they want tax/inheritance breaks then they should
campaign for such. Calling such agreements 'marriages' destroys the meaning
of the word without making any difference to reality.

Signature

    John Cartmell    john@ followed by finnybank.com    FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527
    Qercus magazine & FD Games    www.finnybank.com  www.acornuser.com
Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines

Paul J Gans - 03 Mar 2004 02:03 GMT
In soc.history.medieval John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> As a group interested in medieval history, people here should be aware
>> of how RECENTLY the church butted into marriage "ceremonies". All this
>> ranting that's going on about the historical "sanctity of marriage" just
>> goes to show the general ignorance of historical fact.

>And the state butted in even more recently because the church made a pig's
>ear of the whole thing and caused a dynastic upheaval (amongst other
>things).

>As I understand it marriage has been a ceremony sanctified by the couple
>and community before God. 'Sanctified' does *not* necessitate the presence
>of a church but Elizabeth's requirements of the Church to keep records was
>a *good thing* at a time movement across communities was increasing and
>following the problems generated by the Church allowing clandestine
>marriage.

>All that Church or State should be doing is acting as recorders of a
>sanctified agreement. Of course both then jump in for excellent reasons and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>and give tax and inheritance incentives because that saves the state money
>and bother.

>Same sex 'marriages' are total anachronisms and Church/State acceptance of
>such things should be resisted at all costs if only on the grounds of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>campaign for such. Calling such agreements 'marriages' destroys the meaning
>of the word without making any difference to reality.

John, this is a peculiar American debate.  Here a union
recognized by law (usually called a marriage) entitles the
couple to a number of civil benefits that have no inherent
relationship to marriage as, for example, Elizabeth I would
have understood it.

Non-heterosexual couples feel unfairly cut out of these
benefits.

On the other hand, in the US a religious marriage is not
a requirement.  Having a religious marriage depends on
the couple wanting one and the chosen religious authorities
willing to perform one according to their rules.

I have no reason to interfere with such religious marriages.

On the other hand, it seems unfair to deny what I'll call
a "civil union" to non-heterosexual couples.  Most think
this way.  Even President Bush has said that he'd not mind
such things.

So with a slight redefinition of a civil license to marry
many of the desires of same-sex couples could be met without
forcing any religious group to do anything they do not want
to do.

   ------ Paul J. Gans
Bruce Sinclair - 02 Mar 2004 23:09 GMT
(snip)
>And for a change, I'm even leaving all the newsgroups I don't subscribe
>to in the headings.

why ? :)

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things.        <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.
Paul J Gans - 01 Mar 2004 18:48 GMT
In alt.history.british Sheila J <wolseley@shaw.ca> wrote:

>> "I have long opposed governmental recognition of same-gender marriages."
>> So said Bill Clinton in 1996 when he signed into law the Defense of
>> Marriage Act defining marriage as the "legal union between one man and
>> one woman."

>It may be the only legal union, according to Clinton, but it certainly
>is NOT the ONLY union allowed in marriage.... to him.....

>I just don't understand why everyone is so up in arms about same sex
>marriages.  Who cares.  It's not as if the govt is going to force people
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>raised (and quite well, I might add) in gay households yet their parents
>are being denied the right to make the family legal.

>Just seems quite sad.  Just imagine if all the time and energy that is
>being invested on this topic could be directed towards something truly
>worthwhile........

The reason is fairly simple.  In the US there are many things
that cannot be shared *unless* the people involved are married.
For instance in many states you can live with someone who cannot
benefit from your health care coverage.  Tax rates are different
for the married and unmarried and it is easier for married couples
to buy a home (for example).

Curiously, even though the US Constitution specifies a separation
of Church and State, many tend to forget that in this case.

Most people, including President Bush, are in favor of "civil
unions".  That is, a legal union that would take care of all
the problems of health care coverage, taxation, etc.

Marriage, per se, is a religious matter and, I would think,
in the US not the business of the state at all.  Right now
gays can marry in the US if they can find a minister to marry
them.  (And one *can* find such ministers.)  However, that
union will not be recognized by the state.  For that you need
to have (guess what!) various forms filled out and legally
signed.

Speaking only for myself, I'd separate the two issues and
allow civil unions in a variety of different ways.  And those
civil unions should endow the same legal rights and protections
that "marriage" does now.

And I'd leave marriage up to the various churches.

This is quite common in Europe where a civil "marriage" (what
I'm calling a civil union) is quite separate from a religious
marriage.  The state does not care about the latter -- nor
should it.

  ---- Paul J. Gans
John Cartmell - 01 Mar 2004 19:21 GMT
> Speaking only for myself, I'd separate the two issues and allow civil
> unions in a variety of different ways.  And those civil unions should
> endow the same legal rights and protections that "marriage" does now.

Why? Why not different? Not necessarily better or worse - but different. Of
course if the state isn't following the marriage as sacrament patytern then
one wonders about other partnerships that might be allowed between more
than 2 people or between siblings or parents and children. If it's just for
tax & so on then I don't see why the restrictions required of a sacrament
have any relevance.

I'm still confused why you should want to call it marriage though.

Signature

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    Qercus magazine & FD Games    www.finnybank.com  www.acornuser.com
Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines

Paul J Gans - 02 Mar 2004 03:56 GMT
>> Speaking only for myself, I'd separate the two issues and allow civil
>> unions in a variety of different ways.  And those civil unions should
>> endow the same legal rights and protections that "marriage" does now.

>Why? Why not different? Not necessarily better or worse - but different. Of
>course if the state isn't following the marriage as sacrament patytern then
>one wonders about other partnerships that might be allowed between more
>than 2 people or between siblings or parents and children. If it's just for
>tax & so on then I don't see why the restrictions required of a sacrament
>have any relevance.

>I'm still confused why you should want to call it marriage though.

Me?  I don't want to call it "marriage".  For me marriage
is a religious thing.  Why should the State care about the
color of the collar of the person marrying me?

As for the other, of course I was headed there.  The public
is, I think, ready for pairwise civil unions and that will
take care of perhaps 95% of the "peculiar" living arrangements
out there.

But I'm not sure that folks are ready for the rest.

There is a problem with the "rest".  Most of our "marriage
advantages" are designed with two people in mind.  Take
the marriage tax break.  Would a triad get an extra tax
break or would it top out at the break for two.

What about medical costs?  They are calculated on the
actuarial figures for married couples.  Adding gays will
probably save the insurance companies some money since
they average far fewer children than heterosexuals.

But with mixed gender triads (or Mormon style polygamy
-- which is still practiced _sub rosa_ in Utah and other
places) the costs will change significantly.  None of
this is insurmountable, of course, but since this is
seen as a "social revolution" (which it is not) I'd
take it a bit slow.

  ---- Paul J. Gans
Alex - 03 Mar 2004 16:37 GMT
> Me?  I don't want to call it "marriage".  For me marriage
> is a religious thing.  

It is not. You can mary in an absolutely "civilian" ceremony conducted
by a local official (as I did).

>Why should the State care about the
> color of the collar of the person marrying me?

It does not care about _this_. What it cares about are the existing
laws and rules.

> As for the other, of course I was headed there.  The public
> is, I think, ready for pairwise civil unions

Not that I'm against them but I have problems with figuring out what
_exactly_ they mean and where is their difference from a marriage.

>and that will
> take care of perhaps 95% of the "peculiar" living arrangements
> out there.

Ah, here you are wrong. The beauty of the whole issue is that, as soon
as you agree to break one of the "rules", the rest do not look sound
anymore (don't take me wrong. I think that it will be a lot of fun):
(a) You legalized the homosexual unions. Fine, but the next argument is that
(b) a polygamy is an old and world-wide practice, much more legalized and
traditional than homosexualism (with an ability to refer to Bible AND
Koran). So far the only valid reason of not having it legalized is a
"tradition". Well, this is not an argument anymore, so.... The next step
(c) is what is now called pedophilia and what in not so removed times was a
normal practice all over the Europe, Asia, and Africa (can't tell about
America) and still is legal in many places. Is there any _valid_ reason
to consider it as a crime? Not, if (a) and (b) are legal. With (c) legalized,
the next candidate should be
(d)Incest. Why was it good for the Egyptians but not for the Americans?
What? "Tradition"? Excuse me.....
(e)Next should be "a union between a human being and an animal"
because 1. where is harm? 2. what if they love each other? In practical
terms, it means extension of the medical benefits to the visits to a
veterinarian. We are already on the way to this happy arrangement because
on PC you are a "guardian" of your pet. Shouls a truly open-minded society
be speciestic? What is wrong except for "tradition"?
(f) The last but not the least will go the necrophils. After all, who said
that both partners should be alive? AFAIK, there is nothing on the subject
even in the existing constitutions. Any clause about "both of them should be
alive"? Will go just fine with all previous cases and can even provide a push
for the American industry: production of the big unexpensive refregirators.
There can be some legal problems with the relatives of a deceased part of
the couple refusing to give up the corpse so this should be a field day for
the Edwards & Co (and I can see a strong push from this corner as soon as the
trial lawyers will recognize a potential).

Perhaps I missed some interested groups but the list always can be
amended.


[]

> But with mixed gender triads (or Mormon style polygamy
> -- which is still practiced _sub rosa_ in Utah and other
> places) the costs will change significantly.

As usually, you are mixing a potential: imagine 10 wives working
with you managing the assets. :-)
Renia - 03 Mar 2004 00:39 GMT
> > "I have long opposed governmental recognition of same-gender marriages."
> > So said Bill Clinton in 1996 when he signed into law the Defense of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I just don't understand why everyone is so up in arms about same sex
> marriages.

Because it isn't a marriage.

>  Who cares.

More people than dare say.

>  It's not as if the govt is going to force people
> into same sex marriages...they are only allowing those couples who are
> ALREADY committed and living common law to enter into a bond.

Then what is wrong with Common Law? Why not just call it a legal bond?

>  Why do we
> not care when 2 mismatched people  enter into this most holy of unions -

Perhaps they don't realise they are mis-matched at the time. And I
doubt that many people would call a pure sexual relationship the most
holy of unions.

If you now tell me that homosexuals don't have sexual relationships
with each other, then why can't they achieve non-sexual relationships
with persons of the opposite sex?

> doing it for whatever reasons - and then scream when a loving,  same
> -sex couple  attempts to have that same sort of bond?
> Why is it ok for someone like Britney Spears to make a mockery of
> marriage

It isn't.

>- getting married on a whim and then divorced on one - and then
> NOT ALLOW a male couple who have lived together for 20 years?  Or to not
> sanctify a relationship of same-sex parents?

Because children need parents of both sexes. Role models and all that
(without going into all the arguments.) If parents were to be of one
sex, nature would not have devised two separate sexes as being the
means by which parenthood is achieved.

> Many children are being
> raised (and quite well, I might add)

As we say in these newsgroups:

Cite please.

> in gay households yet their parents
> are being denied the right to make the family legal.

It's not a family, is it? It's called a family, in the modern
parlance, but it isn't one. See Tiglath's excellent post about
re-jigging language.

> Just seems quite sad.  Just imagine if all the time and energy that is
> being invested on this topic could be directed towards something truly
> worthwhile........

This is a worthwhile topic.

What people get up to in the privacy of their own homes is their own
business. If two same-sex people want to commit to a lifetime living
together, that is not the same thing as two heterosexuals commiting to
each other in the hope of having children. For that is the ultimate
nature of marriage and lifelong commitment, to protect and rear
children.

Two people of the same sex are never going to have children together.
They have no reason to marry. If they want to protect their financial
togetherness, as it were, then the courts can accommodate this.

Modern science can produce children for same-sex couples to rear.

But is it good for the children?

If it is, then why did Nature evolve two separate genders? Is it a
fruitful future for humanity for people to buy their designer children
in bottles?

There are much wider issues for contemplation than whether same-sex
couples should marry.

For what purpose is marriage?

If it is not for the care and nurturing of the next generation, then
is it nothing more than a legalisation of sexual activity?

Renia
Tron Furu - 03 Mar 2004 02:58 GMT
If parents were to be of one
> sex, nature would not have devised two separate sexes as being the
> means by which parenthood is achieved.

No homo sapiens sapiens may use this argument.

If two same-sex people want to commit to a lifetime living
> together, that is not the same thing as two heterosexuals commiting to
> each other in the hope of having children. For that is the ultimate
> nature of marriage and lifelong commitment, to protect and rear
> children.

What a wonderful argument for same-sex marriages; because this was the
initial problem in my country: there were a number of same sex couples where
one or both had children from previous marriages (as natural as you can
wish). These couples were living together, committed for life (at the time;
but such is our age), but were prevented from doing as much as other parents
when it came to protecting and rearing these children.
Again, in my opinion it doesn't have to be marriage in the holy sanctimony
sense; but some provision must be made for these children too.

> Two people of the same sex are never going to have children together.

Yes; just not biologically.

> They have no reason to marry. If they want to protect their financial
> togetherness, as it were, then the courts can accommodate this.

No.

> Modern science can produce children for same-sex couples to rear.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> fruitful future for humanity for people to buy their designer children
> in bottles?

Those techniques are not pioneered by the G/L community, but by people who
want their kids to be "all-american" (insert any Western Country, I think)
pre-plastic-surgeryfied WASP kiddie wonders.

> There are much wider issues for contemplation than whether same-sex
> couples should marry.

For whom?

> For what purpose is marriage?
>
> If it is not for the care and nurturing of the next generation, then
> is it nothing more than a legalisation of sexual activity?

It is and has ever been society's mechanism for control over sex.
It is not for the care and nurturing of children. Once a kid has plopped
out, the whole machinery is no longer concerned with that kid (only the
potential next). OTOH, all the wonderful things that the family is supposed
to provide, are provided socially in even the most primitive societies. With
us it is doctors, day care, school and teachers, church and clergy, teams
and coaches,  etc. doing the "homework" while the parents hold 1 1/2 jobs
each to afford all that.

Century of the Fruitbat.

T
Renia - 03 Mar 2004 13:30 GMT
>  If parents were to be of one
> > sex, nature would not have devised two separate sexes as being the
> > means by which parenthood is achieved.
>
> No homo sapiens sapiens may use this argument.

I'm afraid I am one. So are we all. Unless you are a gibbon?

>  If two same-sex people want to commit to a lifetime living
> > together, that is not the same thing as two heterosexuals commiting to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> one or both had children from previous marriages (as natural as you can
> wish).

I don't think this is the kind of same-sex marriage we are talking
about. Unless you are referring to ex-heterosexuals who have
re-thought their sexuality?

>  These couples were living together, committed for life (at the time;
> but such is our age), but were prevented from doing as much as other parents
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> No.

Why not? They can write wills.

> > Modern science can produce children for same-sex couples to rear.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> want their kids to be "all-american" (insert any Western Country, I think)
> pre-plastic-surgeryfied WASP kiddie wonders.

No, there are various reasons for man's (or woman's) need to assist
nature in the procreation of children. Sadly, having children is not a
human right, but it is taken to be so, and if profits can be made out
of such sadness, then it will happen.

There are two gay men who have used surrogate mothers to produce three
children. One child is the genetic offspring of one of the men, the
two others being biological twins born several years apart. They now
want a new surrogate mother because they want another child. According
to the first surrogate mother, she spends more time looking after the
children than the men do. The children were born in America, but the
men are British millionaires, but had to leave Britain because of
adverse reactions from the local community when the older child
started school. They moved to Spain, where they presumed a more
tolerant society might exist. It does not. The parents of the child's
school have demanded it be removed from the school.

> > There are much wider issues for contemplation than whether same-sex
> > couples should marry.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> and coaches,  etc. doing the "homework" while the parents hold 1 1/2 jobs
> each to afford all that.

Right. Have your baby and farm it out to whomsoever will care for it.
Unburden your responsibilities so you can concentrate on the very
stress of living.

> Century of the Fruitbat.

Quite so.

Renia
Tron Furu - 03 Mar 2004 15:36 GMT
> >  If parents were to be of one
> > > sex, nature would not have devised two separate sexes as being the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I'm afraid I am one. So are we all. Unless you are a gibbon?

Tahaha.
How many of your actions are "natural" (and you're welcome to define that,
if you like)?
My guess is, that, like most other HSS your "natural" actions are limited to
involuntary processes directed by the limbic and other non-conscious
subsystems. Breathing, heartbeat, metabolism, etc. Are you and your herd
based at a cluster of twig nests, foraging seasonal fruit and the odd
cadaver left by hyenas? I think not. Your computer is too state of the art
for that.
The very mechanism of "ideology", btw, is to present that which may be
socially constructed as founded in unchangeable nature; if you were to
undertake a short review of the changes in the status of women during e.g.
the last 100 years it would present an excellent example, I believe. I do
not mean to judge or even investigate opinions presented here in the light
of this observation; that is something we can only do for ourselves.

> I don't think this is the kind of same-sex marriage we are talking
> about. Unless you are referring to ex-heterosexuals who have
> re-thought their sexuality?

Yes.

> Why not? They can write wills.

That would depend on local legislation.

> > > If it is, then why did Nature evolve two separate genders? Is it a
> > > fruitful future for humanity for people to buy their designer children
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> No, there are various reasons for man's (or woman's) need to assist
> nature in the procreation of children.

Yes, but that is not the same as the "designer children" you brought up, nor
is it the same as a future trend towards such technologically enhanced
procreation.

> There are two gay men who have used surrogate mothers to produce three
> children. One child is the genetic offspring of one of the men, the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> tolerant society might exist. It does not. The parents of the child's
> school have demanded it be removed from the school.

And what is the moral of the tale? Is this proof that SSM are not natural,
or that people are bigots (by there very nature, so to speak)? Much depends
on who you ask, no?

> Right. Have your baby and farm it out to whomsoever will care for it.
> Unburden your responsibilities so you can concentrate on the very
> stress of living.

Unfortunately, this is what is happening in the West today.

T
Renia - 04 Mar 2004 00:05 GMT
> "Renia" <renia.s@ntlworld.com> skrev i melding

> > There are two gay men who have used surrogate mothers to produce three
> > children. One child is the genetic offspring of one of the men, the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Unfortunately, this is what is happening in the West today.

The moral of the above tale, and of the last two paragraphs, is
testament to the increasing selfishness of society. The "I WILL have
what I want and bugger everyone else" society. The everyone else often
being innocent children caught up in society's whims.

Renia
Alex - 03 Mar 2004 17:16 GMT
>  If parents were to be of one
> > sex, nature would not have devised two separate sexes as being the
> > means by which parenthood is achieved.
>
> No homo sapiens sapiens may use this argument.

I wonder why? Biological parents (even if one of them is present only as a
sperm donor) are of the different sexes. Can you describe a schema with
two males or females producing a child without any "help" from
the ...er... "missing sex"?

Of course, the _adopted_ parents can be any mixture of any sexes and probably
not even necessarily humans.

> > Two people of the same sex are never going to have children together.
>
> Yes; just not biologically.

Indeed.

> > They have no reason to marry. If they want to protect their financial
> > togetherness, as it were, then the courts can accommodate this.
>
> No.

No visible logic: two people can make whatever financial arrangements
they want. What is the problem?

> > Modern science can produce children for same-sex couples to rear.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> want their kids to be "all-american" (insert any Western Country, I think)
> pre-plastic-surgeryfied WASP kiddie wonders.

Are you sayng that ALL developments in this area are done by the
White Anglo-Saxon Protestants? How interesting.

> > There are much wider issues for contemplation than whether same-sex
> > couples should marry.
>
> For whom?

For the rest of society. Because there is not reason to assume that the
same sex couples have more rights than polygamists (quite fashionable
practice all over the world, at least until quite recently), people who
marry "underaged" partners (again, an issue of "underage" differs all over
the world and, historically, was quite different  in Europe only few
centuries ago), and those who want to marry their close relatives. BTW,
do you insist that the alliance _must_ be between the human beings? Why
not between a human and animal? A dog can get strongly attached to a child.
Any valid logic against any of the above?

> > For what purpose is marriage?
> >
> > If it is not for the care and nurturing of the next generation, then
> > is it nothing more than a legalisation of sexual activity?
>
> It is and has ever been society's mechanism for control over sex.

AFAIK, most of the laws controling the sex are safely forgotten, at least in
the US. If some of the state laws still were enforced, the times would be
very interesting.

No, what this recent controversy is about is not about the sex or the rules
of living together. It is about the fundamental rules of society and how it
operates. They should either exist as they are or to be dramatically
changed with the following massive adjustment to the new set of the rules.
The only problem I have with the claims of the homosexuals (except that their
activists tend to be very offensive toward anybody who happens to disagree
with them) is that they are trying to portray themselves as the _only_
group that deserves such an accomodation. They are not and, historically and
culturally, they should not be on the top of the list. The reason why they
are, is that most of the other groups are persecuted by the existing laws
while the homosexuals had been left more or less alone. So, what they are
saying is "accomodate us and screw the others!". Exactly what the
heterosexual majority is saying. :-)

[]

> Century of the Fruitbat.

Being so open-minded, surely you should start supporting the rights of the
different species marriage (well, IIRC, even Pratchett did not went beyond
a man-werwolf union). :-)
Tron Furu - 03 Mar 2004 19:18 GMT
Hi there,

> >  If parents were to be of one
> > > sex, nature would not have devised two separate sexes as being the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I wonder why?

I will have to give you the same explanation I gave Renia:
a) nobody knows what "nature" is (by way of definiton)
b) nobody knows what "our nature" is (empirically - very few cases of human
nature without admixture of culture around to be observed)
c) HSS is the animal that produces itself (I'm sure you recognize the
lingo), or, to give it an antithetical formula, the animal whose nature is
culture.
d) a + b make normative applications of "nature" pretty shaky, and c makes
it uneccessary; or unnatural, so to speak.

Biological parents (even if one of them is present only as a
> sperm donor) are of the different sexes. Can you describe a schema with
> two males or females producing a child without any "help" from
> the ...er... "missing sex"?

Genespliced cloning?

> > > They have no reason to marry. If they want to protect their financial
> > > togetherness, as it were, then the courts can accommodate this.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> No visible logic: two people can make whatever financial arrangements
> they want. What is the problem?

The relationship between logic and jurisprudence? Few visible connections
there.
Financial arrangements will alwas have to be made within the framework of
any given society's laws (I can commonplace, too).
Part of the motives behind the campaigns for SSM is that the people who
brought this up felt that they could not make the arrangements, fincial or
legal, that they observed were granted to people on the basis of a differing
sexual orientation. Some people would call this discrimination.

> Are you sayng that ALL developments in this area are done by the
> White Anglo-Saxon Protestants? How interesting.

I wanted to point out that it is not the GL community which is spearheading
research in reproductive technology; hence I was of the opinion that it
should not be brought against them as an argument in this case. Besides,
there are shades of nuances between my "want .... to be" and your "are".

> > For whom?
>
> For the rest of society.

Yes. This is where I miss some raving liberalists. Is it the busines of the
state to uphold acultural tradition? Is it the business of "society" to
uphold cultural tradition? In a sense, of course; that is what a society
does. But "society", when seen as something else than the state, the
government or authoprities in general, are e.g. not elected. Why should we
obey "society"? The government exists merely for the protection of the
interest of its citizen , of course, and has no business making other laws
than what the majority of voters instruct their representatives to endorse
(add canned laughter to taste).
The main rationale of marriage is of course to provide nucleii of breeding
for the good of those segments of society that are concerned with the extent
of their internal market, be it as voters, consumers or e.g. cannon fodder.

Because there is not reason to assume that the
> same sex couples have more rights than polygamists (quite fashionable
> practice all over the world, at least until quite recently), people who
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> not between a human and animal? A dog can get strongly attached to a child.
> Any valid logic against any of the above?

Oohhh - a strawman on a slippery slope; all this for me?
Customs change, is all I know; my generation (I never thought I'd say that)
has seen great changes in public roles regarding acceptable behaviour for
women, men, workers, artists, musicians, tv show hosts ...traditionally
marginalized subgroups like criminals, people with psychological disorders,
homosexuals ...
The rate and extent of change is a function of the "consensus" of public
opinion. I'm sure that if public opinion swung towards polygamy or whatever,
it would, after the appropriate cultural lag and moral counterinsurgency
raids by religious fringe groups, become mainstream cultural traits, the way
serial monogamy (common law marriages and "hooking up") has replaced the
traditional monogamy as the main family form in countries like Germany (less
than 17 % of parents are married, IIRC. Or 27 %. Whatever the figure, the
decline from e.g. 1950 - 60 to 1990 - 2000 is very steep).

> AFAIK, most of the laws controling the sex are safely forgotten, at least in
> the US. If some of the state laws still were enforced, the times would be
> very interesting.

Yes, I was wrong to describe it as a mechanism for controlling sexual
practices today. With the advent of the Pill, sexual practice no longer has
any necessay bearing on reproduction. Before the Pill was a different
matter. And the control of sex under monogamy was only partly geared towards
practices; in it's effective form, that aspect took, of course, the form of
exclusion of certain groups, like young people in the phase from when they
were "fertile" + "grown up (say 21 years of age) until a couple had mustered
enough resources and social approval to officially form a union (at best a
couple of years later). Entire european litteratures centre around this
topic.
Marriage continues, however, to be an important vehicle of government
programs for channeling resources to new generations, via the local
"caretakers". That is, - for such is capitalism - one works with rewards
more than with punishments. When people come to see this as normal, or even
a right, not being rewarded will be felt as punishment.

> No, what this recent controversy is about is not about the sex or the rules
> of living together. It is about the fundamental rules of society and how it
> operates.

And here I've been confused all the time. Tut; Tut.

They should either exist as they are or to be dramatically
> changed with the following massive adjustment to the new set of the rules.

There's a false dichotomy if there ever was one. Changeless stasis and
complete reworking are the two things that researchers of the body politic
never encounter. Even the effort to conserve changes (cue "freedom").

> The only problem I have with the claims of the homosexuals (except that their
> activists tend to be very offensive toward anybody who happens to disagree
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> are, is that most of the other groups are persecuted by the existing laws
> while the homosexuals had been left more or less alone.

OK.

So, what they are
> saying is "accomodate us and screw the others!".

A pun or two could be wrung from this, too .... But isn't this the general
tenor of people in general, i.e. the cause for and material of politics?
Tricky only if you try to deny that it does not apply to oneself, like
radical feminists.

Exactly what the
> heterosexual majority is saying. :-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Being so open-minded

Who? Me?

Note well that I have not taken any stand on same sex marriages; I have just
commented upon certain arguments presented in the debate. I might - indeed,
feel obliged to - do that even towards people I agree with; actually more
so, since I don't want "my" issues to be defended with fallacious
arguments - no foe is as dangerous as an incompetent ally, to paraphrase
good old Freddy Bill (he _did_ put a lot of things rather well).

, surely you should start supporting the rights of the
> different species marriage (well, IIRC, even Pratchett did not went beyond
> a man-werwolf union). :-)

Why stop there? Why do marriages have to have at least one human partner?
The heart warms at the thought of sheeps that pass in the night. Why not
ants married to jellyfish? Oyster/shrimp could, in addition to being
non-speciesist interspecies, be _variably_ same and differing sex marriages.
And if you are not a crude animatist, you'ld let a fish marry a bicycle.

Any info on homosexuals in the Middle Ages, btw? It was not unknown to the
Vikings - Odin himself, after Loke, was in fact the God whose behaviour most
oftened bordered on "ragr", in that he practiced magic, which, Snorri says,
is accompanied by so much shameful conduct that it behove not men to indulge
in it; and so the men had tought it to the women.

T
Renia - 04 Mar 2004 00:01 GMT
> Hi there,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I will have to give you the same explanation I gave Renia:
> a) nobody knows what "nature" is (by way of definiton)

Nature is very, very simple. It is the procreation and development of
the species (whatever species of whatever living thing you fancy).
Sometimes, species die out. If homosexuality was universal, homo
sapiens would die out.

> b) nobody knows what "our nature" is (empirically - very few cases of human
> nature without admixture of culture around to be observed)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> d) a + b make normative applications of "nature" pretty shaky, and c makes
> it uneccessary; or unnatural, so to speak.

This is a load of twaddle in the context of this discussion.

>  Biological parents (even if one of them is present only as a
> > sperm donor) are of the different sexes. Can you describe a schema with
> > two males or females producing a child without any "help" from
> > the ...er... "missing sex"?

> Genespliced cloning?

Ah, the ideal, eh? What's wrong with old-fashioned copulation? I've
always said that man will invent himself out of his own existence. I
haven't changed my mind about that in 30 years. Everything man does
today, brings that day nearer.

> > > > They have no reason to marry. If they want to protect their financial
> > > > togetherness, as it were, then the courts can accommodate this.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> legal, that they observed were granted to people on the basis of a differing
> sexual orientation. Some people would call this discrimination.

And some people might not. But the answer to this dilemma, is not
marriage. It's a change in the law which allows same-sex couples to be
considered as a financial unit.

> > Are you sayng that ALL developments in this area are done by the
> > White Anglo-Saxon Protestants? How interesting.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> should not be brought against them as an argument in this case. Besides,
> there are shades of nuances between my "want .... to be" and your "are".

Then it's back to marriage as defined as a family unit.

> > > For whom?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> for the good of those segments of society that are concerned with the extent
> of their internal market, be it as voters, consumers or e.g. cannon fodder.

How utterly cold-blooded.

>  Because there is not reason to assume that the
> > same sex couples have more rights than polygamists (quite fashionable
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> has seen great changes in public roles regarding acceptable behaviour for
> women, men, workers, artists, musicians, tv show hosts ...

Many people find modern manners and behaviour unacceptable,
particularly among some of those in public roles.

> traditionally
> marginalized subgroups like criminals, people with psychological disorders,
> homosexuals ...
> The rate and extent of change is a function of the "consensus" of public
> opinion.

Who moves public opinion? Newspapers and TV. Back to the unacceptable
behaviour mentioned above. The media is full of homosexuals, so it is
in their interest to persuade the public that their sexual preferences
are mainstream and that the heterosexual majority is really quite
old-fashioned.

> I'm sure that if public opinion swung towards polygamy or whatever,
> it would, after the appropriate cultural lag and moral counterinsurgency
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> more than with punishments. When people come to see this as normal, or even
> a right, not being rewarded will be felt as punishment.

So you see marriage as a capitalist plot?

Snip the rest.

Renia
Tron Furu - 04 Mar 2004 02:15 GMT
"Renia" <renia.s@ntlworld.com> skrev i melding >

> Nature is very, very simple. It is the procreation and development of
> the species (whatever species of whatever living thing you fancy).
> Sometimes, species die out. If homosexuality was universal, homo
> sapiens would die out.

I am not contesting biological facts, only their social implications.  As a
description of physical constraints various aspects of the "natural" are
merely maters of fact. As guidelines to action, appeals to what is "natural"
in a majority of cases masks something which is merely political.That
distinction needs to be made, and it should not be masked, as it is here, by
a single term; unless one's arguments depend on it, of course.

> > b) nobody knows what "our nature" is (empirically - very few cases of human
> > nature without admixture of culture around to be observed)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> This is a load of twaddle in the context of this discussion.

Isn't this sentiment a bit ahistorical? The whole civilizational project of
mankind incorporates a striving for freedom from necessity, to the degree
where one can do what one will rather than what one must, or "has always
done".
I am sure that the homosexual community has grasped the biological basics,
and what they are doing is looking for a way to remedy the lack of
possibilities for procreation they are faced with. That said, generation by
two sexes is of course only one of the models available to nature.
Furthermore, "nature" having made them homosexuals, I'm afraid most of them
see no other alternative.

> >  Biological parents (even if one of them is present only as a
> > > sperm donor) are of the different sexes. Can you describe a schema with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Ah, the ideal, eh?

No, it is, as Alex requested, a description.

>What's wrong with old-fashioned copulation?

Nothing, if you ask me; perhaps a homosexual person would answer
differently.

> I've always said that man will invent himself out of his own existence.
..... Everything man does
> today, brings that day nearer.

Oswald Spengler?

>...I  haven't changed my mind about that in 30 years....

Beware of self-fulfilling prophecies - they come true.

.... But the answer to this dilemma, is not
> marriage. It's a change in the law which allows same-sex couples to be
> considered as a financial unit.

Possibly. I am also confused as to why they want it to be "marriage", of all
things. Possibly there are undelrying motives.

> Then it's back to marriage as defined as a family unit.

"A household of slaves"? Isn't that overly conservative?

> How utterly cold-blooded.

The price of explanatory force.

> Many people find modern manners and behaviour unacceptable,
> particularly among some of those in public roles.

Yes, that normative aspect is another part of the description.

> Who moves public opinion? Newspapers and TV.

The media people would love you for that; however, there are very few
explanations put forward as to which mechanism would lie behind this
phenomenon. It is likely that media influence what we talk about, but it
seems unlikely that media determine which way public opinion turns; they are
much more reflective than that. Re force of conviction, it is only sales
people whom we trust less than journalists; and media contain expressions of
a wide range of sentiments and opinions - media influence is not homogenous.
So the apparent obvious truth of this commonplace seems to dissolve on
closer scrutiny.

Back to the unacceptable
> behaviour mentioned above. The media is full of homosexuals, so it is
> in their interest to persuade the public that their sexual preferences
> are mainstream and that the heterosexual majority is really quite
> old-fashioned.

So you see television as a homosexual plot?

> > Marriage continues, however, to be an important vehicle of government
> > programs for channeling resources to new generations, via the local
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Snip the rest.

Yes, it is better if you snip whole paragraphs than snip parts of their
intended meaning.

- Marriage continues to be an important vehicle for government programs
concerning children.
That much, I hope is uncontroversial as a description and perhaps regarded
as favourable, seeing as the authorities support this natural union of man
an woman for the purpose of procreation.

- Capitalism, or the free market, is premised on self organization with a
minimum, albeit debatable, of government interference. That much, I hope is
uncontroversial as a description and perhaps regarded as favourable, seeing
as the authorities support man's natural striving in the pursuit of
happiness.

- "A minimum of government interference" is here pictured as regulating
authorities, besides upholding the freedom of the market with enforceable
laws, refraining from enforcing polices that the government sees as
favourable, and rather seeks to alter the outcomes by offering rewards for
those who comply rather than sanctions for those who do not. The citizen as
consumer, so to speak. If you have any problems with this, please write your
local government or Milton Friedman.

So far, so good: no plot, and no capitalists. I suspect, btw, that
capitalists are for too busy making money to have time for plotting
marriages.

The concluding sentence contains the nucleus of explanation that the
preceding parts were leading up to: when government support for being a
"family" is seen as "normal", then some people who find themselves in what
they would chose to call a family, perhaps predicated on the similarity of
comsumption patterns (house, household ...) see the lack of support for them
as a lack of public acceptance. So this is my shot at the "underlying
motives" mentioned above.

Please accept the above as my attempt at _explanation_, not as an
endorsement of any policy.

You really ought to get a handle on the "is/ought" thing. Muddling,
intentional or not, makes for such vulgar rhetorics.

TF
Renia - 04 Mar 2004 23:35 GMT
> "Renia" <renia.s@ntlworld.com> skrev i melding >
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I am not contesting biological facts, only their social implications.

In the end, societies are families of families. That is, numerous
family units living in their various societies.

>  As a
> description of physical constraints various aspects of the "natural" are
> merely maters of fact.

Now, what is that supposed to mean? It means nothing other than the
empty sentence in which you have placed it.

< As guidelines to action, appeals to what is "natural"
> in a majority of cases masks something which is merely political.That
> distinction needs to be made, and it should not be masked, as it is here, by
> a single term; unless one's arguments depend on it, of course.

You see politics. I see people.

> > > b) nobody knows what "our nature" is (empirically - very few cases of
>  human
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> where one can do what one will rather than what one must, or "has always
> done".

Clever words. But what does it mean?

Mankind is not a project. It is an is. Determination and Free Will
have no place in this discussion.

> I am sure that the homosexual community has grasped the biological basics,
> and what they are doing is looking for a way to remedy the lack of
> possibilities for procreation they are faced with. That said, generation by
> two sexes is of course only one of the models available to nature.

Ok. So let's talk of snails.

> Furthermore, "nature" having made them homosexuals, I'm afraid most of them
> see no other alternative.

I dispute that nature has made them homosexual. I think choice and
fashion has made them that way in many cases. There are those, I
believe, for whom nature has, shall we say, opted out.

A very close member of my family is gay. I call him Queen of England.
I can say no more than this, save to say, that even he admits that,
but for the circumstances of his life, he may have been hetero. He
admits it was a choice he made.

I know many gays who work in the newspaper industry. Particularly with
the lesbians, almost without exception, they had spent themselves
sexually, by the time they were 17 or so. In looking for sexual
excitement, while castigating men (basically, their abusers), there
was only one route to take.

I recently read an article by a life-long lesbian. Lesbianism, to her
and her friends, was a culture of faith. When she made a conscious
decision and became attracted to a man, her "sisters" scorned her. She
realised she had lived within a kind of ritualistic belief in the
uselessness of men which had denied her any access to them.

> > >  Biological parents (even if one of them is present only as a
> > > > sperm donor) are of the different sexes. Can you describe a schema
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Nothing, if you ask me; perhaps a homosexual person would answer
> differently.

That's what it's all about.

> > I've always said that man will invent himself out of his own existence.
>  ..... Everything man does
> > today, brings that day nearer.
>
> Oswald Spengler?

Never heard of him. You mean, someone else has pinched/thought of my
idea?

> >...I  haven't changed my mind about that in 30 years....
>
> Beware of self-fulfilling prophecies - they come true.

Mine isn't a self-fulfilling prophecy. I have no hand in it.

> .... But the answer to this dilemma, is not
> > marriage. It's a change in the law which allows same-sex couples to be
> > considered as a financial unit.
>
> Possibly. I am also confused as to why they want it to be "marriage", of all
> things. Possibly there are undelrying motives.

Quite so. Back to sex.

> > Then it's back to marriage as defined as a family unit.
>
> "A household of slaves"? Isn't that overly conservative?

There's only one slave in a family. Unless the mother-in-law has moved
in as well.

> > How utterly cold-blooded.
>
> The price of explanatory force.

Que?

> > Many people find modern manners and behaviour unacceptable,
> > particularly among some of those in public roles.
>
> Yes, that normative aspect is another part of the description.

Description of what? You talk in cross-purposes.

> > Who moves public opinion? Newspapers and TV.
>
> The media people would love you for that;

I worked in the media.

> however, there are very few
> explanations put forward as to which mechanism would lie behind this
> phenomenon. It is likely that media influence what we talk about, but it
> seems unlikely that media determine which way public opinion turns; they are
> much more reflective than that.

I doubt it. The media gets a bee in its bonnet, looks for the
marketing value and projects the sales based on that, and follows
through. Mainly. However, my point is not about that. My point is the
media is packed tight with those who have agendas. Which they write
about and use persuasively.

> Re force of conviction, it is only sales
> people whom we trust less than journalists; and media contain expressions of
> a wide range of sentiments and opinions - media influence is not homogenous.
> So the apparent obvious truth of this commonplace seems to dissolve on
> closer scrutiny.

Big words - no argument.

> Back to the unacceptable
> > behaviour mentioned above. The media is full of homosexuals, so it is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> So you see television as a homosexual plot?

Not just television.

> > > Marriage continues, however, to be an important vehicle of government
> > > programs for channeling resources to new generations, via the local
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Yes, it is better if you snip whole paragraphs than snip parts of their
> intended meaning.

Unlike you, who snips your statements, but keeps my answers, so the
whole thing does not run as an arguemnt, but as disjointed statements.

>  - Marriage continues to be an important vehicle for government programs
> concerning children.

Ah, a social scientist. I see. Never trust anyone who has studied
sociology. They see everything as government plots. Conspiracy
theorists, to a man.

> That much, I hope is uncontroversial as a description and perhaps regarded
> as favourable, seeing as the authorities support this natural union of man
> an woman for the purpose of procreation.

Sod the Government. (Which Government are you talking about, anyway?)
What about good, old-fashioned love?

> - Capitalism, or the free market, is premised on self organization with a
> minimum, albeit debatable, of government interference.

Which has sod-all to do with changing nappies and paying the mortgage.

> That much, I hope is
> uncontroversial as a description and perhaps regarded as favourable, seeing
> as the authorities support man's natural striving in the pursuit of
> happiness.

Utilitarianism doesn't come into this argument.

On second thoughts, perhaps it should.

> - "A minimum of government interference" is here pictured as regulating
> authorities, besides upholding the freedom of the market with enforceable
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> consumer, so to speak. If you have any problems with this, please write your
> local government or Milton Friedman.

I've lost it. What on earth has all this babble got to do with
families and gay marriages?

> So far, so good: no plot, and no capitalists. I suspect, btw, that
> capitalists are for too busy making money to have time for plotting
> marriages.

The only plot here, is the one you have lost.

> The concluding sentence

Which one?

> contains the nucleus of explanation that the
> preceding parts were leading up to: when government support for being a
> "family" is seen as "normal", then some people who find themselves in what
> they would chose to call a family, perhaps predicated on the similarity of
> comsumption patterns (house, household ...)

You can see families as consumers, if you wish. I see families as
groups of people related to and supporting each other. You know:
granny; granddad; mum; dad; kids; dog; cat. Sure, they go out and
spend money on nappies, dog food and going to the movies. But they
don't see it in economic terms. Why are you trying to complicate
things with such sociological irrelevancies?

> see the lack of support for them
> as a lack of public acceptance. So this is my shot at the "underlying
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> You really ought to get a handle on the "is/ought" thing. Muddling,
> intentional or not, makes for such vulgar rhetorics.

You really ought to try and speak more clearly.

Renia
Alex - 04 Mar 2004 03:41 GMT
> Hi there,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I will have to give you the same explanation I gave Renia:
> a) nobody knows what "nature" is (by way of definiton)

OK, we are in a complete agreement on this one ("Nature", "God" and
other ill-defined entities are definitely hard to understand). Except if
Renia meant (as I suspect) just a ...er.... natural arrangement. You know,
male has one type of equipment, female another and they "go together as
a horse and carriage". One can consider this a "nature". Or, of course,
one may not. Especially if one is a leech. BTW, are you? (don't get me
wrong, the leeches are considerably more useful than some human beings). :-)

> b) nobody knows what "our nature" is (empirically - very few cases of human
> nature without admixture of culture around to be observed)

See above but I suspect that she was talking about purely phisical
arrangements.

> c) HSS

? Homo Sapiens Sovieticus ?

>is the animal that produces itself (I'm sure you recognize the
> lingo),

... has two feet, does not have the feathers and has the flat nails...

>or, to give it an antithetical formula, the animal whose nature is
> culture.

How culture krept into this? "Culture and me are not compatible" (wife of
Wilhelm II), "When I hear the word 'culture', I grab my pistol" (Goebbels,
IIRC).
Even with those exceptions, you are on a dangerous ground: "culture" is
just as difficult to define and pine down as a "nature". :-)

What about, say, "the animal who is not a parrot and who can be taught to
talk and to walk on two feet"?

> d) a + b make normative applications of "nature" pretty shaky, and c makes
> it uneccessary; or unnatural, so to speak.

Well, we always can substitute "nature" with the "physical arrangements".

>  Biological parents (even if one of them is present only as a
> > sperm donor) are of the different sexes. Can you describe a schema with
> > two males or females producing a child without any "help" from
> > the ...er... "missing sex"?
>
> Genespliced cloning?

Don't think that thios is a generally available practice right now so we
can put it aside for a while.

> > > > They have no reason to marry. If they want to protect their financial
> > > > togetherness, as it were, then the courts can accommodate this.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The relationship between logic and jurisprudence? Few visible connections
> there.

It is based on logic. The logic may be weird from an outsider's perspective
but it exists.

> Financial arrangements will alwas have to be made within the framework of
> any given society's laws (I can commonplace, too).

As in the US, there are no visible problems to make all the necessary
financial arrangements in the cases we are discussing. The main _existing_
problem is health insurance: in most cases company of a working spouse
covers a non-working one. The _present_ concerns are that the same sex
marriages will be used as an instrument to get coverage for the completely
unrelated people (let's say, you want to help a friend of yours, you claim
him your <whatever>, and here we are) or at least substantially extend
the existing numbers of the recepients with a resulting further cost growth.
With the health insurance in the US being extremely expensive, this is,
at least supreficially, a valid concern. However, I don't think that in a
reality the numbers will change dramatically by two reasons: (a) in most
cases both <whatever> are working and (b) a considerable number of <whatever>
are already covered as the "domestic partners" (many federal and state
institutions and some private companies are doing this). Which leaves mostly
the cases of cheating.

> Part of the motives behind the campaigns for SSM is that the people who
> brought this up felt that they could not make the arrangements, fincial or
> legal, that they observed were granted to people on the basis of a differing
> sexual orientation. Some people would call this discrimination.

These "concerns" are mostly bullshit, except for the completely valid ones
related to the health insurance. AFAIK, even the adoptions by the same sex
couples became a commonplace. What else? Live together. By all means. To
have a common property? Not a problem: you can buy it as the partners and
to specify precisely who will get what and under which circumstances.
The only (AFAIK) noticeable difference is that in the case of a traditional
marriage a survivor automatically gets all the common property and in the
case of the partnership (BTW, the partners may be of the different sex as
well) you have to make a will. Which, based on my experience, may cost
under $100. OK, two wills. But this will be it.
The interesting issue is how to split a property in the case of separation
but, as I understand, nobody complained about this part yet. :-)

> > Are you sayng that ALL developments in this area are done by the
> > White Anglo-Saxon Protestants? How interesting.
>
> I wanted to point out that it is not the GL community which is spearheading
> research in reproductive technology; hence I was of the opinion that it
> should not be brought against them as an argument in this case.

Quite agree. Actually, I _would_ expect them to spearhead this research but
it looks like they are relying on the traditional methods: adoption of the
other people's children or artificial insemination. Don't you think that
there is some inconsistency? Not that I really care one way or another.

> Besides,
> there are shades of nuances between my "want .... to be" and your "are".

Do you think that everybody wants to be WASPish?

> > > For whom?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> state to uphold acultural tradition? Is it the business of "society" to
> uphold cultural tradition?

Now, here we came to the interesting part. To start with, I'd like to
notice that you can't separate "state" from "society": state is a part of it.
A part that formulates and enforces the rules that (presumably) most of
a society wants. By "society" you presumably mean a sum total of the
citizens of a particular country. Society does not have to be uniform in
its views and wishes so, in general, majority rules or majority makes a
compromise with some minority.

>In a sense, of course; that is what a society
> does. But "society", when seen as something else than the state,

IMO you got it in a reverse order: state is an instrument of a society.
At least in the demcratic countries. I have some experience of living in
the state for which society was an instrument: discussion like we have
would not make sense because homosexuality was a crime punisheable by
prison sentence. Which, as you understand, made an issue of the SSM
somewhat ... shall we say "theoretical"?

>the
> government or authoprities in general, are e.g. not elected. Why should we
> obey "society"?

We should not. We should obey the rules set by the state with an agreement
(or upon request) of a majority of the society. BTW, these rules, as I said
before, may be changed to accomodate some identifiable minority.

>The government exists merely for the protection of the
> interest of its citizen ,

This is tricky because their interests may contradict to each other.
To protect the interests of its citizens according to the laws accepted
by society. Some of the interests may remain unprotectedor even be
unlawful. Within this particular subject: pedophilia and poligamy are
the crimes in US while they definitely represent "interests" of some
citizens.

>of course, and has no business making other laws
> than what the majority of voters instruct their representatives to endorse
> (add canned laughter to taste).

In the American political lingo, a representative is supossed to make a
stand on the "issues" regardless opinion of his/her/its voters. Which
makes the very term somewhat strange. So far, I heard very few representatives
on any level saying: "I'll do things according to the law regardless my
personal feelings". All of them belonged to the executive branch and
(perhaps I missed something) all of them happen to belong ...er... not to
the Democratic Party. The rest always expressed a will to "led" their
constituency instead of following its wishes.

> The main rationale of marriage is of course to provide nucleii of breeding
> for the good of those segments of society that are concerned with the extent
> of their internal market, be it as voters, consumers or e.g. cannon fodder.

Really? I prefer to think in the terms of people liking to live together.
Which, of course, opens the issue of the SSM. The only problem _I_ see
with this issue is that with its acceptance "society" should switch to a
complete openness to each and every form of the sexual relationship.
Strictly speaking, all the way to necrophilia (with zoophilia somewhere in
between). There are no logical reasons (except for rather questionable
"tradition") for permitting the SSM but abolishing poligamy, pedophilia, etc.
In practical terms, I don't think that American society is ready to such a
revolution. The SSM is just "let me in and screw the rest" type of an
attitude.

>  Because there is not reason to assume that the
> > same sex couples have more rights than polygamists (quite fashionable
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Oohhh - a strawman on a slippery slope; all this for me?

Neah. I asked Paul the same questions so you can wait for Herr Professor's
answers if you wish. :-)

> Customs change, is all I know; my generation (I never thought I'd say that)
> has seen great changes in public roles regarding acceptable behaviour for
> women, men, workers, artists, musicians, tv show hosts ...traditionally
> marginalized subgroups like criminals, people with psychological disorders,
> homosexuals ...

Yes. Don't forget that America is rather "traditional" country, comparing
to some places in Europe.

> The rate and extent of change is a function of the "consensus" of public
> opinion. I'm sure that if public opinion swung towards polygamy or whatever,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> than 17 % of parents are married, IIRC. Or 27 %. Whatever the figure, the
> decline from e.g. 1950 - 60 to 1990 - 2000 is very steep).

Well, in the US the lawyers are ruling. :-)
If, say, the homosexuals got a right to get married, it is only a matter of
time (and money) till some human right activists start fighting for the
rights of <select whatever group you prefer>. It will be very easy to show
that, say polygamy, marriage to the family members, or marriage to the
"underage" have a considerably greater historic and cultural tradition than
the homosexual marriages which have none. Then, some open-minded judge
will make a brilliant decision on this subject. This decision will be
overruled by the higher court but the attack will continue....

Of course, the activism can bring completely opposite results.
Look at the present controversy. Most of the American homosexuals probably
did not want it. Everything was going rather smoothly toward the "civil
union" arrangement (saves $100 on the will so that you can pay them to
a marrying clerk). Then, a Supreme Court of my dear state MA came with a
wise decision that it should be "all or nothing" (for your information,
one should not expect anything sane coming from judicial or legislative
branch of MA goverment, they are so far to the left that you need a
telescope to see them). Instead of getting quietly what they wanted, the
"interested party" got a lot of unnecessary publicity and easily expected
backlash from the "mainstream" who did not mind the civil unions but has
some fixation on the meaning of "marriage". Nobody knows how things will
go within MA but a referendum is not out of question and its outcome is
anything but certain. And, of course, the issue had been excalated to the
federal level because what is legal in one state should be recognized by
the others and MA is not exactly a typical state. Who won what?


> > AFAIK, most of the laws controling the sex are safely forgotten, at least
>  in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> matter. And the control of sex under monogamy was only partly geared towards
> practices;

Hah! The _existing_ laws in some states, including MA, regulate them
quite explicitly. Fortunately, nobody cares to enforce these laws but they
are still in the books.

>in it's effective form, that aspect took, of course, the form of
> exclusion of certain groups, like young people in the phase from when they
> were "fertile" + "grown up (say 21 years of age)

As you understand, 21 is absolutely arbitrary number. With the same success
it can be 16 or even lower.

>until a couple had mustered
> enough resources and social approval to officially form a union (at best a
> couple of years later).

Or never?

>Entire european litteratures centre around this
> topic.

Should I refer you to "Romeo and Juliet" regarding the appropriate ages?
Or, if you look at the early XIX century literature, 16-18 (for a female)
was a popular marriage age. Woman of 35-40 was almost "elderly". I'm presently
reading a biography of Prince Eugen and there are some interesting comments
of the English women who visited Vienna of this time. They were delighted by
tha fact that women past 30 are considered attractive (with the grey hairs
and stooping being an attribute of this advanced age).

> Marriage continues, however, to be an important vehicle of government
> programs for channeling resources to new generations, via the local
> "caretakers". That is, - for such is capitalism - one works with rewards
> more than with punishments. When people come to see this as normal, or even
> a right, not being rewarded will be felt as punishment.

You are overestimating goverment's role in America. It is considerably
lower than in many European countries and the same goes for the social
goodies one gets from the "state" in any of its incarnations (we have
quite a few of them). Actually, there is a "marriage penalty" in the
tax code and I'm not aware of the meaningful pro-marriage programs. I
may miss something, of course.

> > No, what this recent controversy is about is not about the sex or the
>  rules
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> And here I've been confused all the time. Tut; Tut.

Well, being inside a center of this controversy (in MA), I have a
different perspective than you in your remote country. :-)

> They should either exist as they are or to be dramatically
> > changed with the following massive adjustment to the new set of the rules.
>
> There's a false dichotomy if there ever was one. Changeless stasis and
> complete reworking are the two things that researchers of the body politic
> never encounter. Even the effort to conserve changes (cue "freedom").

You are wrong on this ocassion. AFAIK, most of the opponents of the SSM
consider them as a fundamental challenge to the existing rules of a
society. Even if very few of them are making the next logical step by
contemplating the logical consequences I mentioned above. Very few of them
object against the homosexualism per se or about the right of the homosexuals
to live together. But there is a lot of objections about making homosexualism
a completely equal style of life ("marriage" being a symbol of normality),
and "teaching" it in the schools, etc. It may be different elsewhere but
this is how it is in America.

> > The only problem I have with the claims of the homosexuals (except that
>  their
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> A pun or two could be wrung from this, too ....

Yes, they could be. :-)

> But isn't this the general
> tenor of people in general, i.e. the cause for and material of politics?

Yes. This is exactly why I can't sympathize with their cause: they don't
care about the others (not that I do) so why should I care about them?
After all, I'm reasonably "conventional".

> Tricky only if you try to deny that it does not apply to oneself, like
> radical feminists.

Well, the radicals on both sides are either funny or obnoxious. Mostly
both.

> Exactly what the
> > heterosexual majority is saying. :-)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Who? Me?

Oops. Sorry.

> Note well that I have not taken any stand on same sex marriages; I have just
> commented upon certain arguments presented in the debate.

Ah, so we are in the same boat.

>I might - indeed,
> feel obliged to - do that even towards people I agree with; actually more
> so, since I don't want "my" issues to be defended with fallacious
> arguments - no foe is as dangerous as an incompetent ally,

Indeed. See above what I wrote about the cause of all the current noise.

>to paraphrase
> good old Freddy Bill (he _did_ put a lot of things rather well).
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Why stop there? Why do marriages have to have at least one human partner?

They should not and I already commented on this. More than that. Why _all_
(who said that there should be two of them) partners should be alive?

> The heart warms at the thought of sheeps that pass in the night.

Pigs are cute too. And very intelligent....

>Why not
> ants married to jellyfish? Oyster/shrimp could, in addition to being
> non-speciesist interspecies, be _variably_ same and differing sex marriages.
> And if you are not a crude animatist, you'ld let a fish marry a bicycle.

Now, you are ahead of me on _this_ one. Nobody, yet, started fight for the
machines' rights in the US. This can open a can of the legal worms: you
can mary your car, which probably should result in the elimination of
the excise taxes and some serious changes in auto insurance. OTOH, would
not buying/selling it became illegal? Or, going in an opposite direction,
should we allow to buy a future spouce so that one can enjoy all the
blisses of marriage to a sheep, pig, chicken, or (just to have a complete
picture) human without bringing disruption into the existing market economy?
Actually, it is rather easy to find some existing cultural traditions to
justify this...

> Any info on homosexuals in the Middle Ages, btw? It was not unknown to the
> Vikings - Odin himself, after Loke, was in fact the God whose behaviour most
> oftened bordered on "ragr", in that he practiced magic, which, Snorri says,
> is accompanied by so much shameful conduct that it behove not men to indulge
> in it; and so the men had tought it to the women.

Well, according to one writer (I don't remember who wrote this particular
book on Chaucer), most of the medieval Brits strongly believed that all
French are homosexual and suspected that Richard II had the same inclinations
because he used the hadkerchief (French fashion) instead of fingers and
sleevs, like any heterosexual Englishman. Can't say how correct they were
in their assumptions. :-)
Tron Furu - 04 Mar 2004 05:35 GMT
"Alex" <am05@hotmail.com> skrev i melding

> OK, we are in a complete agreement on this one ("Nature", "God" and
> other ill-defined entities are definitely hard to understand). Except if
> Renia meant (as I suspect) just a ...er.... natural arrangement. You know,
> male has one type of equipment, female another and they "go together as
> a horse and carriage". One can consider this a "nature". Or, of course,
> one may not.

Quoting me to Renia again, "natural" as a description does not autmatically
warrant "naturally" as a behaviour norm.

Especially if one is a leech. BTW, are you? (don't get me
> wrong, the leeches are considerably more useful than some human beings).
:-)

I don't know enough about leeches to see the essential elements of any
analogy (I'm not _actually_ a leech - e.g. they have a much lower typing
speed, as you can imagine). Since I have been to University, probably people
in some parts of th