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History Forum / General / British History / March 2004Kerry Lost In Vietnam-Era Time Warp?
"Reuters Imitates Us" "You may have noticed that on occasion we make a joke about John Kerry's habit of constantly reminding people that he served in Vietnam. We're far from alone in this, of course; these days just about everyone enjoys a laugh now and then at the expense of the haughty, French-looking Massachusetts Democrat, who by the way served in Vietnam. But we may have been the first; we were doing it as early as December 2002. Anyway, now even Reuters is following our lead. Yesterday the "news" service moved a nonstory about Kerry's reaction to "The Passion of the Christ." He didn't have much of one, as he hadn't seen the movie. But after four paragraphs of nothing, Reuters delivers the punch line: "The four-term senator from Massachusetts hasn't had much time to see movies lately. He has been running for president virtually since the beginning of last year. In fact, the last movie he saw in a theater was another Mel Gibson flick released in 2002 called "We Were Soldiers," set in Vietnam where Kerry commanded a Navy Swift boat and was decorated for heroism." We never saw "We Were Soldiers," but somehow we doubt it was about Kerry, who was not a soldier but a naval officer. ****** Byron York of the Hill, however, reports there is a movie about Kerry's Vietnam experience, produced and directed by John Kerry. York describes a 1996 report in the Boston Globe: "Kerry told reporter Charles Sennott the oft-repeated story of the February 1969 firefight in which Kerry attacked the Viet Cong who ambushed his Swift boat. . . . The future senator was so "focused on his future ambitions," Sennott reported, that he bought a Super-8 movie camera, returned to the scene, and re-enacted the skirmish on film. It was that film, transferred to videotape, that Kerry played for Sennott. "I'll show you where they shot from. See? That's the hole covered up with reeds," Kerry said as he ran the tape in slow motion. . . . Through hours of watching the films in the den of his newly renovated Beacon Hill mansion, it becomes apparent that these are memories and footage he returns to often," Sennott wrote." York argues that Kerry is "stuck in a Vietnam-era time warp"; he even plays ancient Jimi Hendrix tunes at campaign rallies. Sixty-year-old Kerry "seems far older than, say, the 71-year-old Donald Rumsfeld -- a man who is always moving ahead, not inclined to lecture about the way things were 30 or 40 years ago."" James Taranto WSJ DSH >"Reuters Imitates Us" > >"You may have noticed that on occasion we make a joke about John Kerry's >habit of constantly reminding people that he served in Vietnam. We're >far from alone in this, of course; these days just about everyone enjoys >a laugh now and then at the expense of the haughty, French-looking Presumably the worst attack one can make on a US politician is to comment that he looks French. He can drown kittens as a hobby but to look Gallic is just too much. This must be the fourth or so reference to his appearance in articles posted by DSH, yet in all the video footage I've seen there's not one striped T shirt, beret or even a string of onions around his neck. -- Julian Richards julian-richards "at" ntlworld.com Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse with people that you would never want in your house. Why don't you do a favor for the internet. Instead of poluting it with your chickenshit useless posts, climb into the toilet, reach up and pull down to flush handle and head out to your proper new home. Show us what a man you are by doing it right now, this instant. > Why don't you do a favor for the internet. Instead of poluting it with your > chickenshit useless posts, climb into the toilet, reach up and pull down to > flush handle and head out to your proper new home. Show us what a man you > are by doing it right now, this instant. I doubt that David has learned how to use a lavatory yet - this has been suggested many times before I'm afraid. What the hell is wrong with you? The Sep. 11 attacks were easily avoidable through better airplane security (locked secure cockpit doors, at least one pilot armed with a handgun, armed air marshals on flights, etc). There was also plenty of warning that something like that might happen in terms of past highjackings and suicide bombings, intelligence buzz etc. The US security / intelligence agencies probably could have detected and disrupted the plot if it wasn't for such bad management and info sharing. All these failings happened on Bush's watch. He had plenty of time and authority to have made changes. In addition, the post-war phase in Iraq has been bizarrely mishandled and may wind up having created a worse security situation for the US than existed before, with the loss of hundreds of US troops and thousands of maimed personnel, enormous expenditures of taxpayer funds and alienated former allies. Certainly, Bush's mishandling of Iraq has squandered opportunities for gaining Arab / Moslem good will. A lot of on-the-scene people in Iraq are asking where all the US taxpayer money has been going - it's not particularly evident in terms of the billions that have gone "somewhere". There are mounting allegations and admissions of mis-spending and corruption by Halliburton and other firms with administration ties. And you think this guy has done a good job and deserves re-election? BC > "Reuters Imitates Us" > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > DSH > What the hell is wrong with you? > > The Sep. 11 attacks were easily avoidable through better airplane > security (locked secure cockpit doors, at least one pilot armed with a > handgun, armed air marshals on flights, etc). The kind of "better security" that was the subject of debate under the previous administration, but after the airline companies made some sizeable campaign donations, were tabled by none other than then-VP Gore? "Gore himself backed down on his commission's insistence that all bags be matched to passengers on all flights. The day after he wrote the ATA about his change of heart, campaign contributions started to pour in from the airlines to various Democratic Party committees at double their previous pace." ( http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20011029&s=sifry ) Or... "The commission delayed immediate implementation of the plan...In all, the airlines gave the Democratic Party $585,000 in the closing weeks of the 1996 election, twice what was given the Republican Party, according to an analysis of contributions by the Center for Responsive Politics." ( cnn.com ) > There was also plenty of warning that something like that might > happen in terms of past highjackings and suicide bombings, intelligence buzz [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and disrupted the plot if it wasn't for such bad management and info > sharing. "Could have"...? It is amazing how many *expert* intelligence analysts who are *oh so much more capable* than those professionals serving in the various intel organizations, have come out of the woodwork of late, especially in Usenet. > All these failings happened on Bush's watch. He had plenty of time > and authority to have made changes. Actually, all of the various shortcomings had been happening for years and years..including throughout the entire Clinton administration. We got caught flat-footed, but trying to lay the blame in Bush's lap (who had been in office for a whoppingeight to nine *months* when 9-11 went down) is ludicrous. > In addition, the post-war phase in Iraq has been bizarrely > mishandled and may wind up having created a worse security situation for the > US than existed before, with the loss of hundreds of US troops and thousands > of maimed personnel, enormous expenditures of taxpayer funds and alienated > former allies. Certainly, Bush's mishandling of Iraq has squandered > opportunities for gaining Arab / Moslem good will. Tell you what, you go out and "gain good will" (God only knows how when it comes to the US in the Muslim world), while the rest of us root out any and every threat we can find and stomp it flatter than a pancake, and we'll see who ends up living in a safer environment when its all over, OK? And what would YOUR plan be for Iraqi stabilization? Turn it over to the UN, so they could do as good of a job as they did in Somalia? > A lot of on-the-scene people in Iraq are asking where all the US > taxpayer money has been going - it's not particularly evident in terms of > the billions that have gone "somewhere". There are mounting allegations and > admissions of mis-spending and corruption by Halliburton and other firms > with administration ties. Kind of figured it was about time for you to raise the "E-Vil Con-spear-see" dogma... about on par with the rest of what you are trying to (unsuccessfully) pass off as the product of rational thought. And who are this lot of "on the scene people in Iraq", eh? Could you be a bit more specific? > And you think this guy has done a good job and deserves re-election? Well, more so than the clown who repeatedly voted, and indeed served as sole sponsor of legislation so intended, to virtually GUT the intelligence budgets of those same organizations that you have decried as having so miserably failed us. So I guess the simple anwer to that question of your's would be, "Yep." Brooks <snip> > > What the hell is wrong with you? > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > analysis of contributions by the Center for Responsive Politics." ( > cnn.com ) It was on Bush's watch that it happened. He was just as lax in security measures as the Democrats were, and has no right to claim any greater stature than them in national security. > > There was also plenty of warning that something like that might > > happen in terms of past highjackings and suicide bombings, intelligence [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > various intel organizations, have come out of the woodwork of late, > especially in Usenet. Bullshit. It's been well covered that there were strong leads prior to Sep 11. If you knew what you're talking about you would know about FBI agents trying to report up the line about flight training for Arabs who didn't care about learning to land etc. This occured on Bush's watch. > > All these failings happened on Bush's watch. He had plenty of time > > and authority to have made changes. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > office for a whoppingeight to nine *months* when 9-11 went down) is > ludicrous. No it isn't. not when he's trying to claim he's more to be relied upon than the Demos in national security. > > In addition, the post-war phase in Iraq has been bizarrely > > mishandled and may wind up having created a worse security situation for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > would YOUR plan be for Iraqi stabilization? Turn it over to the UN, so they > could do as good of a job as they did in Somalia? You aren't stamping anything out j.rkoff. Its troops like taking the risks, just like I did in VN. The mis-handling of post war Iraq has and will create more security problems for the US. > > A lot of on-the-scene people in Iraq are asking where all the US > > taxpayer money has been going - it's not particularly evident in terms of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > this lot of "on the scene people in Iraq", eh? Could you be a bit more > specific? Read the papers idiot. A lot of money has been spent and the economy over there is shambles, and security is in even worse condition. > > And you think this guy has done a good job and deserves re-election? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > miserably failed us. So I guess the simple anwer to that question of your's > would be, "Yep." Bullshit. The CIA and FBI get 10's of billions in their budgets, and have for years. They weren't gutted and nobody wanted them gutted. They're bloated bureacracies that have almost no human intel and that's why the US has been so exposed. Throwing money at them is stupid and won't improve things. > Brooks > > <snip> > > > What the hell is wrong with you? > > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > It was on Bush's watch that it happened. Eight feakin' months. Get a grip on reality. He was just as lax in security > measures as the Democrats were, and has no right to claim any greater > stature than them in national security. Sure he does. Unlike his predecessor, who had the opportunity to get OBL and didn't, he has proved to be willing to address the problem head on. His opponent in this race voted against participation in the FIRST Gulf War, for cryin' out loud. He was the SOLE sponsor not once, but twice, of legislation aimed at gutting the intelligence agencies--that NONE of his other colleagues would join him, and that his legislation was defeated both times, says something (though you may not be able to grasp what it is). > > > There was also plenty of warning that something like that might > > > happen in terms of past highjackings and suicide bombings, intelligence [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Bullshit. It's been well covered that there were strong leads prior to Sep > 11. Do you know what Monday Morning Quarterbacking is? If you knew what you're talking about you would know about FBI agents > trying to report up the line about flight training for Arabs who didn't care > about learning to land etc. This occured on Bush's watch. Blah, blah, blah. You got anything really important to inform us of? And do you maybe have any idea of the number of raw intel leads the FBI and CIA handle on a daily basis? No? Figures. > > > > > All these failings happened on Bush's watch. He had plenty of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > No it isn't. not when he's trying to claim he's more to be relied upon than > the Demos in national security. He is, so stop your whining. Eight months...versus eight years that nothing was done about OBL, or airline security, or improving the capabilities of the intel agencies. > > > In addition, the post-war phase in Iraq has been bizarrely > > > mishandled and may wind up having created a worse security situation for [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > You aren't stamping anything out j.rkoff. Oooh! I am gonna tell your mommie that you used a bad word! You may lose your TV privileges for a week or two. > Its troops like taking the risks, > just like I did in VN. "Its troops like taking the risks"? OK.... The mis-handling of post war Iraq has and will create > more security problems for the US. Well, given the caliber of rantiong you have demonstrated so far, your inability to assess the security environment now or to prognosticate about what it will be next year is hardly surprising. > > > A lot of on-the-scene people in Iraq are asking where all the > US [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Read the papers idiot. A lot of money has been spent and the economy over > there is shambles, and security is in even worse condition. So you can't give any specifics. Well, that's about par for you so far--big on wind, small on facts. FYI, genius--their economy over there was a shambles *before* we went into Iraq, or didn't ya know? And whose security is in even worse shape? Seen any major attacks against homeland targets that the rest of us have missed? > > > And you think this guy has done a good job and deserves re-election? > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Bullshit. The CIA and FBI get 10's of billions in their budgets, Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer Bush for failing to turn around in eight months an intel system he inherited from his predecessor, but you are gonna bend over backwards to make excuses for why ol' JFK II's efforts to gut samesaid agenciea was *really* the thing to do... Did you forget to take your logic pill this morning, or what? Brooks <snip> > > > > What the hell is wrong with you? > > > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Eight feakin' months. Get a grip on reality. Eight feakin days should have been enough if he had his finger on the pulse, his eye on the ball and had even the vaguest suspicion something was cooking. (Sorry, I love mixed metaphors). > He was just as lax in security > > measures as the Democrats were, and has no right to claim any greater > > stature than them in national security. > > Sure he does. Unlike his predecessor, who had the opportunity to get OBL and > didn't, he has proved to be willing to address the problem head on. I think not. OBL is still at large is he not? > His > opponent in this race voted against participation in the FIRST Gulf War, for > cryin' out loud. He was the SOLE sponsor not once, but twice, of legislation > aimed at gutting the intelligence agencies--that NONE of his other > colleagues would join him, and that his legislation was defeated both times, > says something (though you may not be able to grasp what it is). The US intelligence agencies NEED cutting, streamlining and co-ordinating desperately. They are obviously inneficient! > > > > There was also plenty of warning that something like that > might [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Do you know what Monday Morning Quarterbacking is? No, but I know what 'wise after the event' is. > If you knew what you're talking about you would know about FBI agents > > trying to report up the line about flight training for Arabs who didn't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you maybe have any idea of the number of raw intel leads the FBI and CIA > handle on a daily basis? No? Figures. Nor do they I expect. They had quite enough to raise suspicion - the required action was not taken. > > > > All these failings happened on Bush's watch. He had plenty of > > time [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > was done about OBL, or airline security, or improving the capabilities of > the intel agencies. In other words, when Bush swept into power he didn't get things moving and did no better. Not good enough. > > > > In addition, the post-war phase in Iraq has been bizarrely > > > > mishandled and may wind up having created a worse security situation [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Oooh! I am gonna tell your mommie that you used a bad word! You may lose > your TV privileges for a week or two. You missed the point didn't you Kevin? > > Its troops like taking the risks, > > just like I did in VN. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > inability to assess the security environment now or to prognosticate about > what it will be next year is hardly surprising. Just like Mr Bush.... > <snip> Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an > ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer Bush > for failing to turn around in eight months an intel system he inherited from > his predecessor, but you are gonna bend over backwards to make excuses for > why ol' JFK II's efforts to gut samesaid agenciea was *really* the thing to > do... Did you forget to take your logic pill this morning, or what? Try your weak crap on somebody else, little fellow. The US's problem in security isn't that it spends too little. It has an over bureaucratized system with no street smarts. That's why it couldn't respond to info about ragheads training to fly, but not take off / land airliners etc etc. That's also why they failed in their attempts to kill Saddam last year and wound up killing a lot of innocent people instead. You harp on Kerry "wanting to gut the CIA" etc. It's just phony right wing bullshit, like most of the crap in your replies. Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush. First, he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war. Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a person to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going to do very well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge amounts of money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you. Now why don't you just run along. >Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush. First, >he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ah yes. So EVERY American male who didn't serve at least five months in combat in Vietnam from 1962 to 1973 is a shirker? That's a lot of people you despise. kwc > >Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush. First, > >he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > people you despise. > kwc Pretty inane. > Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an > > ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Now why don't you just run along. > Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an > > ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Try your weak crap on somebody else, little fellow. Given the obvious difficulties you are having with simple concepts, "weak crap" is all that is required. > The US's problem in security isn't that it spends too little. It has an over > bureaucratized system with no street smarts. That's why it couldn't respond > to info about ragheads training to fly, but not take off / land airliners > etc etc. That's also why they failed in their attempts to kill Saddam last > year and wound up killing a lot of innocent people instead. In war sh.t happens. Intel is more of an art than a science. How many AQ attacks against American targets did your little buddy Clinton endure, without catching on? Was it four, or five? Took Bush one. > You harp on Kerry "wanting to gut the CIA" etc. It's just phony right wing > bullshit, like most of the crap in your replies. No, it is a matter of public record that he did so. Twice. Even his fellow senators would not join him--not a one. > Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush. First, > he had the character not to shirk combat when his country was at war. Depends on how you read it. Using a loophole so he could DEROS after what, four months? And return stateside so he could immediately start accusing his fellow servicemembers of various assorted crimes and atrocities (second hand info, of course, gained from attending the Winter Soldier event that ol' Ms. Fonda hosted). And toss his medals away in protest...oops! That's right, NOW he says they were "somebody else's medals"... it is oh-so-neat now for him to display them, huh? > Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a person > to learn what really works and doesn't work in war. He's going to do very > well as President in improving US security, versus spending huge amounts of > money and phony posturing for Walter Mitty types like you. But according to him, all he learned was how to commit atrocities. So what good would he be? Walter Mitty, eh? What, you think you are the only guy hereabouts who ever served in the military? Brooks > Now why don't you just run along. > > Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of an > > > ace security expert you are supporting there, huh? You are gonna hammer [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Given the obvious difficulties you are having with simple concepts, "weak > crap" is all that is required. Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have gootnen anywhere near running for president if it wasn't for his family name. Like I said, peddle your weak crap elsewhere. > > The US's problem in security isn't that it spends too little. It has an > over [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > attacks against American targets did your little buddy Clinton endure, > without catching on? Was it four, or five? Took Bush one. You're a real hardass... sitting in safety being dismissive of women and children getting killed and maimed from misdirected strikes. By the way, I don't like Clinton, or his Republican mirror image, Bush. I was a Republican for a long time until scumbags like Rove and company demonstrated what the party was becoming. > > You harp on Kerry "wanting to gut the CIA" etc. It's just phony right wing > > bullshit, like most of the crap in your replies. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > he says they were "somebody else's medals"... it is oh-so-neat now for him > to display them, huh? I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour and I doubt that you do either. Whatever, his record and decorations beat using family connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people who served and fought over there came away with conflicted feelings about it. > > Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a > person [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But according to him, all he learned was how to commit atrocities. So what > good would he be? Again, bullshit. > Walter Mitty, eh? What, you think you are the only guy hereabouts who ever > served in the military? Well, you just sound very half baked with the phoney tough guy stuff, what can I say. > Brooks > > > Now why don't you just run along. > > > Which Kerry twice tried to dramatically cut. Yeah, that is one hell of > an [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > anywhere near running for president if it wasn't for his family name. Like I > said, peddle your weak crap elsewhere. And JFK II was really just a kid off the streets, right? And Bush a "shirker"? The same Bush who volunteered for Palace Alert duty? Who flew single engine fighter jets that are well beyond your capability to even comprehend, much less fly? And all of those poor ANG and ARNG personnel who got called up in 1968, a good chunk of them finding themselves in Vietnam in short order...were they "shirkers" too? You are not the brightest bulb on the tree, are ya? > > > The US's problem in security isn't that it spends too little. It has an > > over [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > for a long time until scumbags like Rove and company demonstrated what the > party was becoming. Oh, I did my share of time sitting in miserable conditions playing my little part in that whole pointy-end-of-the-spear thingie. And yes, collateral damage and resultant casualties will occur in wars--despite the fact that we did everything we could to prevent them. rememeber that little AH-64 deep attack mission that got so much press for sustaining such damage? It went in without the usual SEAD package--why, you ask? Because there were too many civies along the ingress route and the commander on the ground decided that SEAD fires would likely kill too many of them. Idiot. > > > You harp on Kerry "wanting to gut the CIA" etc. It's just phony right > wing > > > bullshit, like most of the crap in your replies. > > > > No, it is a matter of public record that he did so. Twice. Even his fellow > > senators would not join him--not a one. Oooh, no snappy (and false) replies to that one this time? > > > Kerry has at least two solid things going for in comparison to Bush. > > First, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour Second tour? LOL! I was not aware he ever set foot in, or flew over, or even really approached the shoreline of, Vietnam during his first tour. and I doubt that > you do either. Yes, I do, Because he knew about the little used "three wounds and your on your way home" policy the Navy had...which might explain those two curious "wounds" with no lost duty days. Whatever, his record and decorations beat using family > connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people who served and > fought over there came away with conflicted feelings about it. Shirk = National Guard duty, huh? Again, Palace Alert, the '68 mobilizations... not a very good definition of "shirker" you have there. > > > Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a > > person [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Again, bullshit. What, you think he did NOT accuse US troops of widespread, commonplace atrocities? What planet have YOU been on lately? He even appeared on "Meet The Press" to discuss his accusations, accompanied by another Vietnam combat vet...ooops! Turns out the other guy was a phoney who had a creative mind when it came to where/how he served. Hey, where are your Walter Mitty claims? Brooks > > Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have gootnen > > anywhere near running for president if it wasn't for his family name. Like [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > got called up in 1968, a good chunk of them finding themselves in Vietnam in > short order...were they "shirkers" too? You have a lot loose crap flying around in your head. JFK blah blah blah. Single engine fightrers I can't "comprehend" --- hhahahaha. And HE wasn't called up you fool. It's coming to me now - you're a nitwit. Haha > You are not the brightest bulb on the tree, are ya? Hah. A lot brighter and more stable than you are nitwit. > > > In war sh.t happens. Intel is more of an art than a science. How many AQ > > > attacks against American targets did your little buddy Clinton endure, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > civies along the ingress route and the commander on the ground decided that > SEAD fires would likely kill too many of them. Idiot. There's a jabering idiot in this discussion, but its not me pal. You sound hysterical. > > I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > your way home" policy the Navy had...which might explain those two curious > "wounds" with no lost duty days. Little used? Bullshit you nitwit. That shows the extent of you knowledge. All services had a 3 wounds and out policy. > Whatever, his record and decorations beat using family > > connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people who served [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Shirk = National Guard duty, huh? Again, Palace Alert, the '68 > mobilizations... not a very good definition of "shirker" you have there. You're a clown. Missing meetings, not taking flight physicals and losing flight status, there are a lot of issues regarding his service and everyone knows it. > > > > Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches a > > > person [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > vet...ooops! Turns out the other guy was a phoney who had a creative mind > when it came to where/how he served. He's also got circle of people he served in combat with. As I said, a lot of people who saw action in that war came away with mixed feelings > Hey, where are your Walter Mitty claims? Even more alive and well than before. Take your hysteria elsewhere nitwit. Is this all you have to do, dashing off acronymed psuedo-authorative bullshit in newsgroups? > > > Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have > gootnen [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > called up you fool. > It's coming to me now - you're a nitwit. Haha Answer the question. Were they also "shirkers"? What, can't bring yourself to answer that one? > > You are not the brightest bulb on the tree, are ya? > > Hah. A lot brighter and more stable than you are nitwit. The evidence indicates otherwise. Be honest--you were not even aware of the '68 mobilization and subsequent service in Vietnam of both ARNG and ANG units, were you? > > > > In war sh.t happens. Intel is more of an art than a science. How many > AQ [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > There's a jabering idiot in this discussion, but its not me pal. You sound > hysterical. So much for your ability to face facts. > > > I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Little used? Bullshit you nitwit. That shows the extent of you knowledge. > All services had a 3 wounds and out policy. But he was in the Navy--how many Navy vets took advantage of that little loophole? > > Whatever, his record and decorations beat using family > > > connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people who served [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > flight status, there are a lot of issues regarding his service and everyone > knows it. Uhmmm. National Guard service does not equal "shirker"; the 23,000 ANG/ARNG personnel activated in '68 bear witness to that. Bush did indeed volunteer for Palace Alert. By the time he took that job in Alabama and began "splitting-out" (not "missing meetings"--what he did was actually "Equivalent Training", in Guard parlance) the US effort in Vietnam was on the rails bound for Vietnamization, and his unit had lost its ADC alert mission in favor of a training role that he was really not qualified for due to inexperience. He did his time, got his honorable discharge. Yep, sounds like he did his part to me. > > > > > Second, the experience of being on the sharp edge of things teaches > a [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > He's also got circle of people he served in combat with. As I said, a lot of > people who saw action in that war came away with mixed feelings Gee, how amazing--folks wanting to be associated with a genuine presidential contender! Who'd have thunk it? A lot of Vietnam vets have also come down hard on him for breaking faith with his fellow servicemembers--not necessarily because he opposed the war, but because he parroted that ridiculous "Winter Soldier Investigation" crap regarding widespread atrocities and crimes. Oddly enough, subsequent investigation into those WSI claims revealed no evidence to support them (some personnel who allegedly "testified" even denied being there, leaving one wondering *who* did the actual "testifying"). And yes, Kerry's VVAW sidekick during that 1971 "Meet the Press" interview did indeed turn out to have not been what he claimed to be, namely a Vietnam combat vet. > > Hey, where are your Walter Mitty claims? > > Even more alive and well than before. Take your hysteria elsewhere nitwit. > Is this all you have to do, dashing off acronymed psuedo-authorative > bullshit in newsgroups? Gee, at least the claims I have made are fact-based--what about your flights of fancy? And what is the story here? All of a sudden you are backing down from that "dick measuring" contest in regards to military experience? Brooks You go on and on with this rubbish. The fact remains Kerry volunteered his way into a dangerous job, Swift river boats, and has a circle of service friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in action. [People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).] Bush has what? He used his elitist family ties to get into a unit that had little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical that takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of seeing action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings. Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents. Ex-pow Senator McCane smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an Asian child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator Clelend, a triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election. Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are your motives? People reading this might want to consider the nature and pattern of these types of attacks on men who actually did risk their lives in serving their country, by this type of people in making their voting decisions. BC > > > > Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have > > gootnen [quoted text clipped - 169 lines] > > Brooks > You go on and on with this rubbish. The fact remains Kerry volunteered his > way into a dangerous job, Swift river boats, and has a circle of service [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > BC He says, running away...couldn't bring yourself to answer that question about Guard = shirker, huh? And it appears your cliam aginst Bush vice McCane, etc., are the subject of a rather fermented imagination. When you feel up to finally confronting that question about Guard duty equalling shirking, get back to me. Other than that, enjoy your next four years under Bush. Brooks > > > > > Your concept is to support a rich kid shirker who never would have > > > gootnen [quoted text clipped - 193 lines] > > > > Brooks > > You go on and on with this rubbish. The fact remains Kerry volunteered his > > way into a dangerous job, Swift river boats, and has a circle of service [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > shirking, get back to me. Other than that, enjoy your next four years under > Bush. Why would I run from your punk a.s? I didn't even read your rubbish about the Guard, but everybody during Vietnam knew that guys were using connections to get into the guard to avoid Vietnam. Ebverybody knew and said so. If that bothers you, tough sh.t. I never criticised anybody over VN service. My own choice was to join the Marines and get into VN, and get into combat, which I did. As I've said before you, sound like an hysterical Walter Mitty type. Others can read your posts and form their own opinions. > Brooks > [quoted text clipped - 211 lines] > > > > > > Brooks > > > You go on and on with this rubbish. The fact remains Kerry volunteered > his [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > connections to get into the guard to avoid Vietnam. Ebverybody knew and said > so. If that bothers you, tough sh.t. Again, how do you label the aggregate personnel of two organizations that activated units with a combined total of some 23,000 personnel, many of whom soon found themselves in Vietnam, and which also included a fair number of vets who had either served in Korea or even in Vietnam, as "shirkers"? Painting with a rather broad brush there, aren't you? > I never criticised anybody over VN service. My own choice was to join the > Marines and get into VN, and get into combat, which I did. Yes, you have indeed criticised Bush over his service during that time period. You forget so soon? > As I've said before you, sound like an hysterical Walter Mitty type. Others > can read your posts and form their own opinions. Uhmmm...how many years did you wear a uniform? And now we have your great democratic hope, Kerry, stating that, "A U.S. commitment not to increase its offensive capabilities on the Korean peninsula..." is the way to bring Pyongyang around. Oh, yeah-- now *that's* a good security plan. What do you call that, the "Buckle Under DPRK Blackmail" strategy? As an editorial in the CSM was titled, "North Korea Waits for Kerry". Gee, if the DPRK endorses Kerry, do you still think his national security credentials are just peachy? Brooks <snip> > > > Bush. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > vets who had either served in Korea or even in Vietnam, as "shirkers"? > Painting with a rather broad brush there, aren't you? As many people have said, Bush used his family connnections to get into the Guard and avoid VN service, and he succeeded. You keep associating some call-up or something with shirking. I didn't mention anything about a call up, and frnakly I nrither know nor care what the hell you're talking about. > > I never criticised anybody over VN service. My own choice was to join the > > Marines and get into VN, and get into combat, which I did. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Uhmmm...how many years did you wear a uniform? Four years and I would come back by asking you the same, but I don't care if you were in or not. Don't tell me. Just go away. > > > > Bush. > > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > As many people have said, Bush used his family connnections to get into the > Guard and avoid VN service, and he succeeded. "As many people have said" does not amount to a hill of beans, especially since that "many people" have invariably been his political opponents. Now either you think Guard service was a simple "avoid Vietnam" proposition, or you don't--which is it? Given the FACT that 23,000 plus Guardsmen were mobilized in 1968, with a large chunk of them ending up in Vietnam (including some four tactical fighter groups), and the FACT that there were Guardsmen serving during that timeperiod who were veterans of either WWII, Korea, or Vietnam, it seems it would be hard to support the former position (though I am sure you, in your usual illogical manner, will try to do so). > You keep associating some call-up or something with shirking. I didn't > mention anything about a call up, and frnakly I nrither know nor care what > the hell you're talking about. You can't label the Guard as being a way of "shirking" duty when in fact a substantial number of them were called up for active duty and served in Vietnam. > > > I never criticised anybody over VN service. My own choice was to join > the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Four years and I would come back by asking you the same, but I don't care if > you were in or not. Don't tell me. Just go away. Substantially more than four years, pally. Brooks Do you really believe this pogue was a United States Marine? He's not fit to be a toilet-cleaner in a Marine barracks. DSH > Do you really believe this pogue was a United States Marine? > > He's not fit to be a toilet-cleaner in a Marine barracks. You're a well known piece of yellow scum. Keep on backing Bush with his attacks on MEN who did serve. It shows your level of character. > DSH The standup patriotic guys who wanted to serve during Vietnam joined the active military services; Army, USMC, etc, not the reserves and guard, which often required family contacts to get into. At the time, the guard and reserve was not anticipated to be called up, and in fact very few were, and were not particulary effective combat units and were not used for much, and had few casualites. Your whining and twisting doesn't change that reality. You go on and on with this rubbish. Your tactics of framing phony questions are childish. Essentially, you're a nag. The fact remains Kerry volunteered his way into a dangerous job, Swift river boats, and has a circle of service friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in action. [People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).] Bush has what? Karl Rove? He used his elitist family ties to get into a unit that had little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical that takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of seeing action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings. Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents through his long time associate Karl Rove. Ex-pow Senator McCane smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an Asian child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator Clelend, a triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election. Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are your motives? People reading this might want to consider the nature and pattern of these types of attacks on men who actually did risk their lives in serving their country, by this type of people in making their voting decisions. BC > > > > > Bush. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > You can't label the Guard as being a way of "shirking" duty when in fact a > substantial number of them were called up for active duty and served in > Vietnam. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Brooks > The standup patriotic guys who wanted to serve during Vietnam joined the > active military services; Army, USMC, etc, not the reserves and guard, which > often required family contacts to get into. At the time, the guard and > reserve was not anticipated to be called up, and in fact very few were, and > were not particulary effective combat units and were not used for much, and > had few casualites. Your whining and twisting doesn't change that reality. Coming from a guy who just said, "I never criticised anybody over VN service", this is truly ripe! Not effective? Look at the record of D Co, 151st Inf (Long Range Patrol, later "Ranger"), an ARNG unit out of Indiana that went to Vietnam. Low casualty count? As if higher casualties indicated better performance?! OK, if you want to play that way, look at the 116th Engineer Battalion from the IDARNG--it suffered a total of 78 casualties during its tour. New hampshire's 3-197th FA suffered 6 KIA during its tour. The town of bardstown, Kentucky lost thirteen young men KIA in one day of action when one of the batteries of the 2-138th FA had its firebase attacked on June 19, 1969. D-151st Inf suffered two KIA and over 100 WIA during its tour. That enough casualties for you? Regarding quality, this is what the USAF theater commander in Vietnam had to say about his ANG units in testimony before the Senate (and I guess you would accord him at least as much credibility as you give your hero Kerry for his atrocity testimony, right?): "I had ... five F-100 Air National Guard squadrons ... Those were the five best F-100 squadrons in the field," he said. "The aircrews were a little older, but they were more experienced, and the maintenance people were also more experienced than the regular units. They had done the same work on the weapon system for years, and they had stability that a regular unit doesn't have." www.ngaus.org/ngmagazine/vietnam1002.asp As usual, you are long on rubbish and short on facts. > You go on and on with this rubbish. Your tactics of framing phony questions > are childish. Essentially, you're a nag. The Guard served in Vietnam. It suffered casualties in Vietnam. Live with those facts. > The fact remains Kerry volunteered his way into a dangerous job, Swift river > boats, and has a circle of service [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of seeing > action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings. Bush joined the ANG the *same* year that all of those other ANG and ARNG units were activated. He joined a unit that was providing pilots under Palace Alert to serve in Vietnam and Thailand. That by the time he was finished with his training the USAF had decided to remove the F-102 from the theater does not reflect poorly upon him. That he was willing to voluntter for Palace Alert duty while he was still in the final phase of his training speaks well for him. That you can not recognize this just reflects your own deep seated bias. > Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents through his long time > associate Karl Rove. Ex-pow Senator McCane > smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an Asian > child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator Clelend, a > triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election. And you think Bush was responsible for such alleged attacks? Figures. > Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war > record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of > operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are > your motives? The truth. Where is kerry's service record during his USNR time? He supposedly remained in the USNR until 1978--what duty did he ordered to perform? Did he *ever* report in for duty? How justified was he in receiving those two PH's that resulted in no lost duty days? To qualify for a PH, medical treatment by a physician is required--where are the records? Why have Kerry's accusations of widespread atrocities never panned out? Lot's of questions, few answers. From a guy who thinks the best way to deal with the DPRK is too meet their demands up front, and who has repeatedly taken the floor to try and gut the intel agencies, while voting against a plethora of weapons systems that have proven to be quite valuable in the end analysis. Oh, yeah, that is one heck of a national security "expert" you have there. And it's kind of funny how you backed off of the "I served, you didn't" crap sort of quick-like, pally. Brooks > > The standup patriotic guys who wanted to serve during Vietnam joined the > > active military services; Army, USMC, etc, not the reserves and guard, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Coming from a guy who just said, "I never criticised anybody over VN > service", this is truly ripe! Not effective? Not until the topic was raised in this thread. You go on and on about what do you expect? Look at the record of D Co, > 151st Inf (Long Range Patrol, later "Ranger"), an ARNG unit out of Indiana > that went to Vietnam. Low casualty count? As if higher casualties indicated [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > much credibility as you give your hero Kerry for his atrocity testimony, > right?): So the average guy joined the guard or reserves in order to go to VN - I don' think so. It was a big long war with a lot of people in it. And citing a few cases doesn't disprove what was well understood to be true during those times. > "I had ... five F-100 Air National Guard squadrons ... Those were the five > best F-100 squadrons in the field," he said. "The aircrews were a little [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > As usual, you are long on rubbish and short on facts. No I'm not. You constatnly go off on esoteric things and pretend to have proven a point - you haven't. > > You go on and on with this rubbish. Your tactics of framing phony > questions > > are childish. Essentially, you're a nag. > > The Guard served in Vietnam. It suffered casualties in Vietnam. Live with > those facts. Strawman arguments are childish and ineffective with the level of probable readers of this endless thread. > > The fact remains Kerry volunteered his way into a dangerous job, Swift > river [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > speaks well for him. That you can not recognize this just reflects your own > deep seated bias. Get real. If the guy had wanted to serve he could have joined an active unit and gone, like many of us did. Get real. > > Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents through his long time > > associate Karl Rove. Ex-pow Senator McCane [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And you think Bush was responsible for such alleged attacks? Figures. PNAC member of the week: Karl Rove Attended 6 colleges without ever getting a degree, He later went on to teach graduate students. Mr Rove was one of the biggest holders of Enron stock among White House staffers, with between $100,000 and $250,000 worth of shares when he was appointed. The White House has acknowledged that Mr Rove took part in the secret meetings that helped shape the Bush government's energy policy, while he still held Enron shares and stock in other energy companies. Said, by some, to be the most powerful presidential advisor in a century. Said, by more, to be the chief instigator of dirty tricks and character assassination campaigns against those who challenge the policies of the Bush administration. He earned his stripes first as an apprentice of Richard Nixon's dirty trickster, Donald Segretti. Rove then went on to hone and refine his duplicitous craft under Republican National Committee chairmen George H. W. Bush, Lee Atwater, and, finally, George W. Bush After trashing the personal character of former Texas Democratic Governors Mark White and Ann Richards, Texas Democratic Representative Lloyd Doggett, and Arizona Republican Senator John McCain, Rove now uses his tricks to assassinate the characters of noble and non-political men and women. Recent victims have been PFC Jessica Lynch, CIA agent Valerie Plame, former Marine Corps officer Scott Ritter, retired Marine Corps General Anthony Zinni, and Iraqi War commander General Tommy Franks. Over the years, Rove has relied on the planting of bogus stories in the media, production of counterfeit documents, the theft of campaign materials and internal documents, production of false witnesses, electronic eavesdropping, misuse of government resources, unethical political polling techniques, intimidation of minority voters, and "whispering campaigns" to advance the sordid agenda of the neo-conservative, extreme right wing of the Republican Party. Fellow PNAC member, Wialliam Kristol has said of Rove: "I believe Karl is Bush. They're not separate, each of them freestanding, with distinct agendas, as some people say. Karl thinks X. Bush thinks X. Clearly, it's a very complicated relationship." > > Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war > > record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > And it's kind of funny how you backed off of the "I served, you didn't" crap > sort of quick-like, pally. I didn't back off of anyhting you lying phony, and I'm not your pal a.shole. You're constantly whining and crying about your "service". I think you're sensitive for some reason, and you have all kinds of stuff going through your head with imagined slights and so forth. Christ. Bugger off. Since you keep this thing alive I'm going to use it as an opportunity to re-state my own views on what's relevant of this VN stuff... The main fact remains Kerry volunteered his way into a dangerous job, Swift river boats, and has a circle of service friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in action. [People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).] Bush has what? He used his elitist family ties to get into a unit that had little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical that takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of seeing action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings. Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents. Ex-pow Senator McCane smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an Asian child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator Clelend, a triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election. Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are your motives? People reading this might want to consider the nature and pattern of these types of attacks on men who actually did risk their lives in serving their country, by this type of people in making their voting decisions. BC Here's the URL for the short piece on Karl Rove, in the above post. http://oldamericancentury.org/karl_rove.htm > > > The standup patriotic guys who wanted to serve during Vietnam joined the > > > active military services; Army, USMC, etc, not the reserves and guard, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Not until the topic was raised in this thread. You go on and on about what > do you expect? You raised it, idiot. With your rabid anti-Bush rant. > Look at the record of D Co, > > 151st Inf (Long Range Patrol, later "Ranger"), an ARNG unit out of Indiana [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > So the average guy joined the guard or reserves in order to go to VN - I > don' think so. No, the "average guy" either joined to perform his service to his country in a completely acceptable manner, *or* he joined after getting back from a tour in Vietnam (as my own brother did), *or* he didn't join at all, because he had already *been* serving* in the Guard for years before Vietnam even became a topic of discussion around the evening supper table. Bush joined *after* the activation of NG units for Vietnam service--which would point to the Guard as hardly being a guaranteed pass from serving in that conflict. It was a big long war with a lot of people in it. And citing > a few cases doesn't disprove what was well understood to be true during > those times. It proves your accusations about the service of the Guard in Vietnam were about as reliable as anything else you have muttered--which would be "not very". > > "I had ... five F-100 Air National Guard squadrons ... Those were the five > > best F-100 squadrons in the field," he said. "The aircrews were a little [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > No I'm not. You constatnly go off on esoteric things and pretend to have > proven a point - you haven't. Your words: "At the time, the guard and reserve was not anticipated to be called up..." Bullshit. At the time Bush joined 23,000 Guardsmen were in the process of being called up. "...and in fact very few were..." Bullshit, unless you consider 23,000 an insignificant number--that is what, the equivalent of about 1.5 Army divisions at that time? "...were not particulary effective combat units and were not used for much..." Bullshit again. D-151st Inf Rgt had a very successful tour, as did that engineer battalion and those two arty battalions. The F-100 units were cited as being *better* than their AC counterparts. But I guess you know better than the USAF CG, huh? "...had few casualites..." Tell that to the families in Bardstown, OK? And you are the guy who claims to have not called into question the service of anyone who went to Vietnam? Geeze, what a two-faced fellow you are. > > > You go on and on with this rubbish. Your tactics of framing phony > > questions [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Strawman arguments are childish and ineffective with the level of probable > readers of this endless thread. Those "strawman" argunments disproved your squeaks otherwise. > > > The fact remains Kerry volunteered his way into a dangerous job, Swift > > river [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Palace Alert to serve in Vietnam and Thailand. That by the time he was > > finished with his training the USAF had decided to remove the F-102 from > the > > theater does not reflect poorly upon him. That he was willing to voluntter [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Get real. If the guy had wanted to serve he could have joined an active unit > and gone, like many of us did. Get real. But he did serve. Again, you aren't real quick on the uptake, are you? > > > Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents through his long > time [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the secret meetings that helped shape the Bush government's energy policy, > while he still held Enron shares and stock in other energy companies. Talk about strawman arguments... Now tell us, how does any of this prove your accusations about Bush being behind the alleged attacks against Cleland and McCane? It doesn't. <snip increasingly futile whining> > > > Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war > > > record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > sensitive for some reason, and you have all kinds of stuff going through > your head with imagined slights and so forth. Christ. More yeasr of service under my belt than you have, pally. Not bad for a Walter Mitty, eh? Grab a copy of the March 99 edition of the US Army's "Engineer" and you can find my snapshot military biography following an article I wrote for that publication. Now where is the proof behind your alleged service? Brooks <snip further whining> > > > service", this is truly ripe! Not effective? > > > > Not until the topic was raised in this thread. You go on and on about what > > do you expect? > > You raised it, idiot. With your rabid anti-Bush rant. No, dumbass, I didn't. Look at the subject of the thread you idiot and you'll see that I was responding to it, and then later your disjointed hysterical babble. Take your meds dummy. <snip a bunch of whining and crying> Here's a good excerpt from a Baltimore Sun article re. Bush, the draft, Guard etc during Vietnam, and the URL. Look at the 1994 quote attributed to Bush, I assume it's true. Then think about how much credility to give to this waste that I have been dealing with here. Start quote "" Most Guard units required six months of active duty, followed by weekend assignments. The Air National Guard that Bush joined required a two-year hitch for flight training. Bush has said that is the reason it had no waiting list. Segal finds that hard to believe. "In 1968, I don't think there was a National Guard unit in the country that did not have a waiting list," he says. "But no one would know that except the people in the unit itself." In 1994, Bush said his reason for joining the National Guard was the standard one. "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes," Bush told an interviewer in Houston. In more recent interviews, Bush has promoted his time in the Guard, noting that many Guard members are in Iraq. End quote Hey - this is getting FUN. "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes," Bush told an interviewer in Houston. Really excellent!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahahahahahahaha URL http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-pe.draft15feb15,0,1960525.story Since I have to spend time answering this little fool, I'll indulge myself in repeating what I think is relevant about all this; The main fact remains Kerry volunteered his way into a dangerous job, Swift river boats, and has a circle of service friends who were in action with him who back him up as a good man in action. [People who are reading this might want to take a look at Douglass Brinckley's biography of him (I have not read it yet).] Bush has what? Karl Rove? He used his elitist family ties to get into a unit that had little chance of being sent to combat, then he misses a flight physical that takes him out of flight status, effectively eliminating any chance of seeing action, and few people can even remember him attending meetings. Bush is known for pulling scummy tricks on opponents. Ex-pow Senator McCane smeared in phone calls as having a black kid (I think they adopted an Asian child) in the last hours before an election in the south. Senator Clelend, a triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election. Why should anyone give credibility to your attempts to smear Kerry's war record? Isn't it highly consistent with the well known scummy mode of operation of Bush and company? Do you have any character at all? What are your motives? People reading this might want to consider the nature and pattern of these types of attacks on men who actually did risk their lives in serving their country, by this type of people in making their voting decisions. BC <...> > Senator Clelend, a > triple combat amputee smeared as unpatriotic in an election. He wasn't "smeared as unpatriotic in an election", his voting record in the Senate was identified for what it was, "too liberal" for Georgia. His voting record in the Senate was highlighted by his opponent, and the voters in Georgia made a selection based on the actual evidence that was presented. btw. Cleland lost his legs and an arm because of an accident that he use to admit was his own fault and wasn't related to any combat action. Max Cleland was so far out on the Left-Wing he voted AGAINST the establishment of a Homeland Security Department. Yes, he was far, far out of step with the voters of his state, Georgia -- so they rejected him. It's called Representative Democracy. The voters have to ELECT you to serve as their representative -- every six years for U. S. Senators, which is certainly a nice long term -- and what you did 30 years ago is far less important that what you did last month or last year. Cleland defeated himself -- by his voting record. DSH | <...> | [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | btw. Cleland lost his legs and an arm because of an accident that he use to | admit was his own fault and wasn't related to any combat action. Bill Case muttered.... > As many people have said, Bush used his family connnections to get > into the Guard and avoid VN service, and he succeeded. In Texas, it sure didn't take "family connections". One of my brothers in law enlisted in the local unit of the ArmyNG in 1968. The price....a willingness to go the Jump School. As an old Air Intercept Controller, having lost friends whom I had controlled to accident and misadventure, I certainly never considered the flight training sysllabus and peace time ops driving what in the late 60s were birds which flew with minimal margins of safety and unforgiving characteristics asa piece of cake. I would hope, given what seems a record with the USMC, that should you seek public office, fellow Marines, officers, enlisted and senior NCOs would step forward to comment upon your capacity in the billets you held and their regard or lack of same for you. We've heard from Kerry's crew (some). Where have the others been....the guys at OCS, the JOs in GRIDLEY, the JOs and Chiefs in the Riverines? TMO > You keep associating some call-up or something with shirking. I didn't > mention anything about a call up, and frnakly I nrither know nor care > what the hell you're talking about. > Four years and I would come back by asking you the same, but I don't > care if you were in or not. Don't tell me. Just go away. That thin of skin, are you? That's certainly no asset to objectivity or perspective..... I've no problem with Kerry's service in theater, his gallantry and luck. On the other hand, his remarks of blanket condemnation of the actions of those with whom he served remain idelible, absolute disqualifiers for the office he seeks. Had he wanted to accuse individuals or describe specific acts which he believed to be contrary to custom and the Laws of War, his stance would have provided him with some credibility, then and now. But his words at the time remain indelible and uneraseable. That was you he was calling a war criminal....That was you he was accusing. Now, having sh.t in our collective mess kits, he wants us to forget the occasions upon which he chose to humiliate men and women certainly as brave and honorable as he. A better man than he, George McGovern, never resorted to that sleazy, dishonorable and disqualifying a tactic. TMO >Bill Case muttered.... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >(some). Where have the others been....the guys at OCS, the JOs in GRIDLEY, >the JOs and Chiefs in the Riverines? I do not recall much from Bush the elder's service contemporaries while he was running. Peter Skelton Yep... Kerry wanted it both ways. He wanted to be a War Hero AND an "Anti-War Activist" [mind you, just against our side of the war, not against Ho Chi Minh's and his comrades' side.] The Kerry Medals are concrete evidence for this. Kerry wanted to display them on his office glory wall so visitors could see them but he also wanted to throw them away as a sign of public protest. But that was impossible. So he threw ANOTHER GUY'S medals away and kept his own. Two-faced all the way. DSH | In Texas, it sure didn't take "family connections". One of my brothers in | law enlisted in the local unit of the ArmyNG in 1968. The price....a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | driving what in the late 60s were birds which flew with minimal margins of | safety and unforgiving characteristics asa piece of cake.... | I've no problem with Kerry's service in theater, his gallantry and luck. | On the other hand, his remarks of blanket condemnation of the actions of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] | | TMO > He wanted to be a War Hero AND an "Anti-War Activist" He seems to have been both. The citation for his Silver Star is on the web somewhere, I've read it. After he came home he went into politics and obviously had a conscience about the ghastly war he got caught up in. You didn't, therefore no political career for you David... The most interesting thing about the whole Vietnam issue and the presidency is that neither party can produce anyone who served a whole tour 'in country' who is sane enough to put up as a realistic candidate. Everyone who spent a full year there seems to be bonkers in some way...  SignatureWilliam Black ------------------ Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government :Everyone who spent a full year there seems to be bonkers in some way... So what's YOUR excuse? [This is a hell of a remark to make with regard to millions of people. Mr Black must be practicing for the John F. Kerry "They're all war criminals committing attrocities" award.] Signature"I thought dying for your country was the worst thing that could happen to you. I think killing for your country can be a lot worse. Because that's the memory that haunts." -- Senator Bob Kerrey . We've heard from Kerry's crew > (some). Where have the others been....the guys at OCS, the JOs in GRIDLEY, > the JOs and Chiefs in the Riverines? > First, there have been statements made that Kerry didn't have any training between OCS and reporting to the Gridley. John Kerry's Vietnam Service Record: February 18, 1966 Kerry formally enlists in the U.S. Navy August 22, 1966 Kerry reports for Naval Officer Candidate School at the U.S. Naval Training Center in Newport, Rhode Island December 16, 1966 Kerry receives commission as an Ensign January 3, 1967 Kerry reports for duty at the Naval Schools Command at Treasure Island (CA)-Takes 10 week Officer Damage Control Course March 22, 1967 Reports to U.S. Fleet Anti-Air Warfare Training Center (CA). Receives training as a Combat Information Center Watch Officer. June 8, 1967 Kerry reports to USS Gridley-serves in several capacities February 9, 1968 USS Gridley departs for a Western Pacific (WESTPAC) deployment, to engage in operations in support of the Vietnam War. Ship spends time in the Gulf of Tonkin off North Vietnam, at Subic Bay in the Philippines and in Wellington, New Zealand February 10, 1968 Kerry requests duty in Vietnam He lists his first preference for a position as an officer in charge of a Swift Boat (designated PCF for Patrol Craft Fast), his second as an officer in a patrol boat (designated PBR, for Patrol Boat River) squadron May 27, 1968 USS Gridley sets sail for the US June 6, 1968 Kerry arrives in Long Beach the day after Senator Robert F. Kennedy is killed in Los Angeles June 16, 1968 Kerry promoted to Lieutenant, Junior Grade July 20, 1968 Kerry leaves Gridley for specialized training at the Naval Amphibious Base in Coronado, CA in preparation for service as commander of a Swift Boat. These unarmored, but heavily armed, fifty foot aluminum hulled patrol boats depended on speed and agility when engaging the enemy. November 17, 1968 Upon completion of his training, Kerry reports for duty to Coastal Squadron 1, Coastal Division 14, Cam Ranh Bay, South Vietnam. December 1968 through January 1969 Kerry commands PCF-44 December 2, 1968 Kerry experiences first intense combat; receives first combat related injury. December 6, 1968 Kerry moved to Coastal Division 11 at An Thoi on Phu Quoc Island December 13, 1968 Kerry moved to Coastal Division 13, Cam Ranh Bay December 24, 1968 Kerry involved in combat during the Christmas Eve truce of 1968. The truce was three minutes old when mortar fire exploded around Lieutenant Kerry and his five-man crew. Reacting swiftly, John Kerry and his crew silenced the machine gun nest January 22, 1969 Kerry and other Swift boat commanders travel to Saigon for meeting with Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, Commander Naval Forces Vietnam (COMNAVFORV), and Gen. Creighton Abrams, Commander United States Military Assistance Command Vietnam (COMUSMACV) Late January, 1969 Kerry joined his 5 man crew on PCF-94 Late January through Early March, 1969 Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta. Kerry's crew included engineman Eugene Thorson, later an Iowa cement mason; David Alston, then the crew's only African-American and today a minister in South Carolina; petty officer Del Sandusky of Illinois; rear gunner and quartermaster Michael Medeiros of California; and the late Tom Belodeau, who joined the crew fresh out of Chelmsford High School in Massachusetts. Others rotated in and out of the crew. The most intense action came during an extraordinary eight days of more than 10 firefights, remembered by Kerry's crew as the "days of hell." February 20, 1969 Kerry and crew involved in combat; Kerry receives second combat injury Kerry earned his second Purple Heart after sustaining a shrapnel wound in his left thigh. February 28, 1969 For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong insurgents in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam, on 28 February 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as Officer in Charge of Patrol Craft Fast 94 and Officer in Tactical Command of a three-boat mission. As the force approached the target area on the narrow Dong Cung River, all units came under intense automatic weapons and small arms fire from an entrenched enemy force less than fifty-feet away. Unhesitatingly, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry ordered his boat to attack as all units opened fire and beached directly in front of the enemy ambushers. The daring and courageous tactic surprised the enemy and succeeded in routing a score of enemy soldiers. The PCF gunners captured many enemy weapons in the battle that followed. On a request from U.S. Army advisors ashore, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry ordered PCFs 94 and 23 further up river to suppress enemy sniper fire. After proceeding approximately eight hundred yards, the boats again were taken under fire from a heavily foliated area and B-40 rocket exploded close aboard PCF-94; with utter disregard for his own safety and the enemy rockets, he again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only ten feet from the VC rocket position, and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy. Upon sweeping the area an immediate search uncovered an enemy rest and supply area which was destroyed. The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission. His actions were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service. March 13, 1969 For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam, on 13 March 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as Officer in Charge of Patrol Craft Fast 94, one of five boats conducting a SEA Lords operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry is authorized to wear the Combat "V". March 17, 1969 The policy of Coastal Squadron One, the swift boat command, was to send home any individual who is wounded three times in action. After sustaining his third wound from enemy action n Vietnam, Kerry was granted relief under this policy. Early April, 1969 Kerry departs Vietnam April 11, 1969 Kerry reports for duty at the Military Sea Transportation Service, U.S. Atlantic Fleet in Brooklyn, NY. January 1, 1970 Kerry promoted to (full) Lieutenant January 3, 1970 Kerry requests discharge March 1, 1970 Kerry's date of separation from Active Duty April 29, 1970 Kerry listed as Registrant who has completed service [Source: Boston Globe, "John Kerry, the Making of a Candidate", 6/15/03-6/21/03; Tour of Duty by Douglas Brinkley, Published by William Morrow 2003; Selective Service System, National Headquarter] Dad warns Kerry on flying Kerry initially thought about enlisting as a pilot. But his father, Richard Kerry - a test pilot who served in the Army Air Corps - warned him that if he flew in combat, he might lose his love of flying. So Kerry, who sought in so many ways to emulate John Fitzgerald Kennedy, took to the water, just as his idol served on a World War II patrol boat, the 109. Gridley shipmate signs in "You had to be a bit of a cowboy to want a Swift," said David Simons, a Gridley crewmate quoted in Brinkley's book. "It meant that you were willing to get shot up all the time." http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/elections/sns-2004election-kerryprofile,0,53345 .story?coll=bal-election-storyutil In interviews and e-mails, six Gridley shipmates recall Kerry as unpretentious and unafraid of engine grease, rain or rough seas. He issued loudspeaker commands in what his captain called "a great radio voice." The boatswains mates nicknamed him "The Beatle" because of his bangs. Kerry confided to his Gridley roommate, then-Lt. James R. Onorato, that one day he hoped to lead the nation. "He said his primary goal was to be a senator and then go for the big shot, the presidency," Onorato said. "He wanted to be top dog." Standing midnight watch over the moonlit waves, Kerry debated the war with radioman Philip W. Carter -- who says he was then a "jaded" sailor midway through his third tour. "We had different attitudes," Carter says today. "He was an eager-beaver young officer."Kerry's superiors rated him one of the gunboat's most effective officers. In 1968, following the example of his hero, President Kennedy, he volunteered to skipper one of the 50-foot-long Navy "SWIFT boats" then patrolling the Vietnam coast. http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A36917-2004Mar6?language=printer on communicating with his em second. "Kerry, then 25, captained a patrol boat on the Mekong Delta. One day, after taking fire from the Vietcong and after the boat's windows had been blown out by a rocket, Kerry spotted a guerrilla along the shore aiming a B-40 rocket launcher at his boat. Navy training prescribed an immediate retreat. But in a rush of adrenaline, Kerry made a snap decision. Impulsively, he beached the boat, jumped off and shot the guerrilla. It makes a great story. Except that's not quite how it happened. "It was completely planned," said Del Sandusky, Kerry's second-in-command. "He had a number of different scenarios. This was all in his head." From the day Kerry boarded, Sandusky, a veteran helmsman, noticed something different about his commander. "Most of the boat officers, they figured they knew what they needed to know. John was not like that. He was not above asking questions," Sandusky said. "He pumped me for information. He asked me about ambush sites, what to look for on the river." The two men sat at the stern in their jungle greens, swatting mosquitoes and breathing diesel fumes, as Sandusky shared the Mekong's secrets. Two or three times a day, snipers shot at the boat. They couldn't see the gunmen in the brush. "I could hear a clak-clak, and I knew it was an AK-47. I began to distinguish which weapon I was dealing with," Kerry said in an interview. "I was very frustrated. I began to think about how we could win." Sandusky: "We'd talk about contingencies. He never said he was going to beach the boat. He just . . . asked questions." http://kerry2004.meetup.com/members/604 Viet Nam Vet; Went through Officer Candidate School with John receiving our commissions together in Dec '66. Bay Area res. for over 30 yrs working in logistics in Silicon Valley. ex-reg. Republican totally disenchanted with current administration.... Do you have some more facts on this? Perhaps a website? I'm curious about those "three wounds" too ---- many of us are. Hanoi John was only in country four months as I understand it. DSH [...] | Yes, I do, Because he knew about the little used "three wounds and | you're on your way home" policy the Navy had...which might explain | those two curious "wounds" with no lost duty days.... Bill Case muttered.... > I don't know how or why Kerry left VN on his second tour and I doubt > that you do either. Whatever, his record and decorations beat using > family connections to shirk war duty like Bush did. A lot of people > who served and fought over there came away with conflicted feelings > about it. What second tour? He completed less than half of his only tour... ....and then was separated at his request from active duty almost 2 years ahead of his contracted commitment (a favor few of us would have requested and almost none have received). Yeah, conflicted feelings are shared, but not so much that I would have condemned those who served there as jointly and severally guilty of gross atrocities. TMO > Bill Case muttered.... > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > atrocities. > The following is a resume of Kerry's Navy time, less the fact that he is listed as being in the reserves from 1972-8. Did the obligation change between 1959 and 1966? I went to OCS in March of 1959 and could have gotten out in 1962. I stayed in for language school and ended out in July 1965. Six years, which was the service obligation for OCS at that time, 3 active 3 reserve. The 'Lieutenant' promotion is really Ltjg. The biography takes all of his time almost day by day. The four months he spent is probably average for post 1964 service. The Army was hustling officers through in five months to get their ticket punched, one source of the enlisted resentment, as I hear. The last bit about running for congress is not a plus mark, but I spent my last day in service harassing the people checking me out because Johnson was supposed to make a speech on Vietnam that night. We all, all, knew that was not good for 1615 Lieutenants so I got what I would call special treatment. One look at the papers, initial and send me off to the next spot. John Kerry February 18, 1966: A senior at Yale, Kerry commits to enlist in the Navy. December, 1967: Kerry is assigned as an Ensign to the guided-missile frigate USS Gridley. After five-months aboard, he returns to San Diego to undergo training to command a Swift boat, used by the Navy for patrols in Vietnam. June, 1968: Kerry is promoted to Lieutenant. [actually Ltjg] November 17, 1968: Kerry arrives in Vietnam, where he is given command of Swift boat No. 44, operating in the Mekong Delta. December 2, 1968: Kerry gets his first taste of intense combat, and is wounded in the arm. He is awarded a Purple Heart. January, 1969: Kerry takes command of a new Swift boat, completing 18 missions over 48 days, almost all in the Mekong Delta area. February 20, 1969: Kerry is wounded again, taking shrapnel in the left thigh, after a gunboat battle. He is awarded a second Purple Heart. February 28, 1969: Kerry and his boat crew, coming under attack while patroling in the Mekong Delta, decide to counterattack. In the middle of the ensuing firefight, Kerry leaves his boat, pursues a Viet Cong fighter into a small hut, kills him, and retreives a rocket launcher. He is awarded a Silver Star. March 13, 1969: A mine |
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