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History Forum / General / British History / March 2004Re: Loyalists
Here is the sort of thing Pogue O'Hara SHOULD have read ---- BEFORE shooting off his pig-ignorant mouth: "Benjamin Martin" "Portrayed by: Mel Gibson" "Suggested by: Francis Marion (Film Fact or Fiction) Elijah Clarke (Film Fact or Fiction) Daniel Morgan (Film Fact or Fiction) Andrew Pickens (Film Fact or Fiction) Thomas Sumter (Film Fact or Fiction) The character of Benjamin Martin was originally meant to be The Swamp Fox, Francis Marion, but for the sake of telling the best 'dramatic' story and perhaps avoiding some controversy, the filmmakers fictionalized the character and the story. They then added elements of the historic figures of Elijah Clarke, Brigadier General Daniel Morgan, Andrew Pickens and Thomas Sumter to the character of Benjamin Martin. Such a move also covered for the historical inaccuracies that always appear in films. Martin's hit and run tactics and nickname 'The Ghost' were inspired by Francis Marion, while the tactics of using the militia on the front to draw the British in the final battle were based on similar tactics used by Daniel Morgan at the Battle of Cowpens. Thomas Sumter and Andrew Pickens' influence seems to be that both rejoined the fight after the British burned their homes and in Sumter's case, made his wife and son watch their house burn. Benjamin Martin is the central character of the film since the film focuses on the Martin family, of which Benjamin is the patriarch. However he isn't THE Patriot. That title belongs to his son, Gabriel. Benjamin is a man who has been through war before with the French and Indian War and has a large family to care for now. Since his wife, Elizabeth died of illness in 1773, he is a single parent when war begins. So his family is his priority and, as he tells Colonel Harry Burwell, his convictions are secondary. However, the actions of his oldest sons, Gabriel and Thomas, force him to join the fight not so much out of patriotism, but in an effort to protect and keep as much of his family together as he can. The backdrop of war is an extreme case, but Benjamin Martin's decisions and personal sacrifices are common to all parents." http://www.patriotresource.com/characters/benjamin.html Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum. D. Spencer Hines Lux et Veritas et Libertas Vires et Honor 322 "D. Spencer Hines" <D_SpencerHines@usa.yale.edu> wrote in message news:... | Twaddle. | | Mel was playing a COMPOSITE figure in _The Patriot_. | | One of the characters in the fictional composite was Daniel Morgan -- | particularly at Cowpens. | | This pogue needs to learn some facts before, or better instead of, | shooting off his ignorant mouth. | | DSH | | "raymond o'hara" <reoh@comcast.net> wrote in message | news:40d1c.168729$uV3.722684@attbi_s51... | | | | "D. Spencer Hines" <D_SpencerHines@usa.yale.edu> wrote in message | | news:KAc1c.63$th4.3176@eagle.america.net... | | | > Mel Gibson's film _The Patriot_ treats this tactic of the militia | | > at the Battle of Cowpens, with Mel as Daniel Morgan -- and a | | > good deal of artistic license. | | > | | > DSH | | | mel was a fictionalized francis marion in that movie . | | you know the swamp fox . | | talk of what you know , in other words shut up. > Here is the sort of thing Pogue O'Hara SHOULD have read ---- BEFORE > shooting off his pig-ignorant mouth: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > "Suggested by: one } pogue is a limey term, and has no meaning to an american and should not be used by an american either although we don't wish to claim you . two} the story is mainly based on marion and not on morgan as you said . they added elements of others but one line of advice lifted from morgan does not make him that character . let me use a word any american will know . a.shole it describes you well . and lose the word honor from your tagline you have none > one } pogue is a limey term, and has no meaning to an american and > should not be used by an american either although we don't wish to claim > you . Always assumed it to be an American term as it certainly isn't used here. > two} the story is mainly based on marion and not on morgan as you said . > they added elements of others but one line of advice lifted from morgan > does not make him that character . It's fiction. It's not even myth - but the use of real names of characters helps produce & perpetuate new lies.  SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines > It's fiction. duh! >It's not even myth - but the use of real names of characters > helps produce & perpetuate new lies. It's a MOVIE! It has had the side effect of encouraging folks to look up some of the real events of that time. The only MOVIE I have seen which does a really good job of following the original was the Ten Commandments. Slight OT: I like to read "historial fiction." These novels invent characters and put words into the mouths of historical characters. Only the very silly would expect these to be history texts. > > It's fiction. > duh! > >It's not even myth - but the use of real names of characters helps > > produce & perpetuate new lies. > It's a MOVIE! Some cinema attempts to portray truth; some are plain fiction; some use facts as background for fiction; some pretend to portraythe truth and contain fundamental lies. They're all movies. > It has had the side effect of encouraging folks to look up some of the > real events of that time. The only MOVIE I have seen which does a > really good job of following the original was the Ten Commandments. Crap! Unless you were there of course! ;-) > Slight OT: I like to read "historial fiction." These novels invent > characters and put words into the mouths of historical characters. > Only the very silly would expect these to be history texts. Then Mel Gibson is *very* silly as he seems to believe (or at least want others to believe) that what he produces is a portrayal of the truth. SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines > > It has had the side effect of encouraging folks to look up some of the > > real events of that time. The only MOVIE I have seen which does a > > really good job of following the original was the Ten Commandments. > > Crap! Unless you were there of course! ;-) Oh, I read the BOOK. > > Slight OT: I like to read "historial fiction." These novels invent > > characters and put words into the mouths of historical characters. > > Only the very silly would expect these to be history texts. > > Then Mel Gibson is *very* silly as he seems to believe (or at least want > others to believe) that what he produces is a portrayal of the truth. No. He makes MOVIES that folks like to watch! > > > It has had the side effect of encouraging folks to look up some of > > > the real events of that time. The only MOVIE I have seen which > > > does a really good job of following the original was the Ten > > > Commandments. > > > > Crap! Unless you were there of course! ;-) > Oh, I read the BOOK. ISTR that's Gibson's stupid idea - that because somebody wrote a book that must tell a true story. BTW - *which* book did you read? > > > Slight OT: I like to read "historial fiction." These novels > > > invent characters and put words into the mouths of historical [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > want others to believe) that what he produces is a portrayal of the > > truth. > No. He makes MOVIES that folks like to watch! And pretends that they're history. His words. Your description of his words. SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines > > It's fiction. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > characters and put words into the mouths of historical characters. Only > the very silly would expect these to be history texts. the silly make up a good portion of the public > the silly make up a good portion of the public Yeah. But it seems that those who are paid to be teachers in colleges and universities are as silly as any. > > the silly make up a good portion of the public > Yeah. But it seems that those who are paid to be teachers in colleges > and universities are as silly as any. But mainly you & Mr Gibson. SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines In alt.history.british John Gilmer <gilmer@crosslink.net> wrote: >> It's fiction. >duh! >>It's not even myth - but the use of real names of characters >> helps produce & perpetuate new lies. >It's a MOVIE! >It has had the side effect of encouraging folks to look up some of the real >events of that time. The only MOVIE I have seen which does a really good >job of following the original was the Ten Commandments. >Slight OT: I like to read "historial fiction." These novels invent >characters and put words into the mouths of historical characters. Only >the very silly would expect these to be history texts. But John, you aren't the one citing movies as authorities for everything from history to manuals of ethics. ---- Paul J. Gans > But John, you aren't the one citing movies as authorities for > everything from history to manuals of ethics. In particular, I don't know what you are talking about. Do you? In general, fiction can be and often is quite useful in helping folks understand history and ethics. > > But John, you aren't the one citing movies as authorities for > > everything from history to manuals of ethics. > In particular, I don't know what you are talking about. Do you? > In general, fiction can be and often is quite useful in helping folks > understand history and ethics. It's certainly a good lesson in the ethics of lying to advance a cause. SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines > > It's certainly a good lesson in the ethics of lying to advance a cause. No, come on John. There's nothing wrong with history made easy. I'm all for it. And *good* historical fiction does do that very well. It's *bad* history made easy that we're all against. And that certainly does include our Mel. Trouble is, the gullible don't read these ngs (well, some obviously do!), and they soak it up. The stuff we see on this ng from the brainwashed variety of USians demonstrates that only too well. Surreyman > > > It's certainly a good lesson in the ethics of lying to advance a > > > cause. > No, come on John. There's nothing wrong with history made easy. I'm all > for it. And *good* historical fiction does do that very well. It's *bad* > history made easy that we're all against. And that certainly does > include our Mel. Trouble is, the gullible don't read these ngs (well, > some obviously do!), and they soak it up. The stuff we see on this ng > from the brainwashed variety of USians demonstrates that only too well. I've no problem with historical fiction. I'm quite happy with stories of people who *could* have been there but weren't recorded and with the reasonably 'correct' drama going on around them; I'm even willing to accept 'dramatised' versions of the big picture. I object strongly to history being re-fashioned as a prop to a (almost invariably US ) need to prop up a false mask. What national sense of pathological insecurity required that the daredevil capture of enigma secrets was done by US personnel rather than the RN? Why was there a need to underline false myths and develop new ones in the Patriot? We have Orwell's state where history is available to be re-written to suit the masters. What Orwell got wrong was the enthusiastic complicity of non-governmental agencies (eg Hollywood) in the process. SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines > > > > It's certainly a good lesson in the ethics of lying to advance a > > > > cause. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > enthusiastic complicity of non-governmental agencies (eg Hollywood) in the > process. Oh sure, totally agree. Surreyman > I've no problem with historical fiction. I'm quite happy with stories of > people who *could* have been there but weren't recorded and with the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the daredevil capture of enigma secrets was done by US personnel rather > than the RN? What a silly old a.s you are. It's a MOVIE. The UK is quite welcome to make its own MOVIES. (Actually, the "Bond, James Bond" movies are filmed in UK studios. I don't see Americans complaining that there really isn't a secret UK base in Hong Kong. I guess Americans have better things to do with their time than worry about the "accuracy" of works of mostly fiction.) > > I've no problem with historical fiction. I'm quite happy with stories > > of people who *could* have been there but weren't recorded and with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > insecurity required that the daredevil capture of enigma secrets was > > done by US personnel rather than the RN? > What a silly old a.s you are. > It's a MOVIE. > The UK is quite welcome to make its own MOVIES. > (Actually, the "Bond, James Bond" movies are filmed in UK studios. I > don't see Americans complaining that there really isn't a secret UK base > in Hong Kong. I guess Americans have better things to do with their > time than worry about the "accuracy" of works of mostly fiction.) Are you *really* as stupid as you're pretending? Can you name *one* Bond film that pretends to be based an an historical incident? Although bits are stuck in from reality (eg the composite Gates/Murdoch figure) none of it pretends to be anything such. I'm only quoting from films that are *directly* based on historical incidents and pretend to some historical authenticity whilst having to have major aspects of history modified or even reversed in order to bolster fragile US pride. BTW was our Hong Kong base one of the secrets we managed to keep from the US? ;-) SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines In alt.history.british John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> > I've no problem with historical fiction. I'm quite happy with stories >> > of people who *could* have been there but weren't recorded and with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> > insecurity required that the daredevil capture of enigma secrets was >> > done by US personnel rather than the RN? >> What a silly old a.s you are. >> It's a MOVIE. >> The UK is quite welcome to make its own MOVIES. >> (Actually, the "Bond, James Bond" movies are filmed in UK studios. I >> don't see Americans complaining that there really isn't a secret UK base >> in Hong Kong. I guess Americans have better things to do with their >> time than worry about the "accuracy" of works of mostly fiction.) >Are you *really* as stupid as you're pretending? Can you name *one* Bond >film that pretends to be based an an historical incident? Although bits are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >authenticity whilst having to have major aspects of history modified or >even reversed in order to bolster fragile US pride. >BTW was our Hong Kong base one of the secrets we managed to keep from the >US? ;-) Hong Kong was a cover story. The base was actually in Hawaii. Guess who the station master was? ---- Paul J. Gans > > I've no problem with historical fiction. I'm quite happy with stories of > > people who *could* have been there but weren't recorded and with the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > (Actually, the "Bond, James Bond" movies are filmed in UK studios. I don't > see Americans complaining that there really isn't a secret UK base in Hong Kong There almost certainly was when the film was made I guess Americans have better things to do with their time than > worry about the "accuracy" of works of mostly fiction.) Precisely - and I hate to think of the score the US would now get if a survey of USites who saw the film asked 'Who first captured Enigma'! D'you mean we could even go as far as suggesting that the Brits were fighting the Japs in the jungles a bit before Errol Flynn. Wow, let the imagination run loose, lads! Surreyman > > > I've no problem with historical fiction. I'm quite happy with stories of > > > people who *could* have been there but weren't recorded and with the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Surreyman the poles got the first enigma machine . the brits started fighting in the jungles the same day everybody else did on dec 7th 1941 . but of course you knew that . then of course theres that accurate movie , breaking the sound barrier , about how glen dehavilland breaks the sound barrier . the movie zulu is dead on and take gunga din there's another movie that never strays from the facts . yes brit movie making is nothing but the literal truth and we are all blessed by this . > > > > I've no problem with historical fiction. I'm quite happy with stories > of [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > facts . yes brit movie making is nothing but the literal truth and we are > all blessed by this . The above posts, posted to three history newsgroups were ill-advised. The history of the enigma machine is complex, just like to story of who invented television, and who invented the computer. Posting simplicities like this is the opposite of the historian's view. The previous poster was referring to the equally crucial acquisition of the naval enigma, which was more complex and better operated, causing great difficulty for our code-breakers. There is no denying of the fact that the first acquisition was pre-war, and a commercial version. There has been no attempt to deny the very useful start Bletchley was given by Polish Intelligence, and the German traitor. Thur Enigma... Pogues here are obviously quite ignorant of the American role in breaking it and continuing to break it -- particularly with respect to the _Kriegsmarine_. Read up on Admiral Dan Gallery and U-505 ---- for starters. DSH > Enigma... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Read up on Admiral Dan Gallery and U-505 ---- for starters. Yeah, right... June 1944 was a touch late to start on the Kriegsmarine traffic, as they didn't actually have that much still floating... SignatureWilliam Black ------------------ Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government > Enigma... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > DSH What was captured from U505 was basically useless. The allies already had by then the ability to break naval enigma on a fairly regular basis. Gallery was nearly court-martialed for mishandling the capture. SOP was to present to the U-boat survivors the illusion that the U-boat had sunk, taking all it's secrets to the bottom with it. U-boat survivors were kept on deck and able to watch the salvage efforts for some time, and no effort was made to conceal it from the german survivors. This forced the US to keep those germans in a special high security POW enclosure, and not to notify the germans or red cross that they had been captured. Badly handled by Admiral Dan. USN made much propaganda hay after the war about it, further concealing the fuckup. this is not to say that it was all done by the brits. But much of the heavy lifting was done by the Polish, then the French, then the British, and finally the Americans late in the war. The story is complex and full of goofups, accidents, and luck. --Dale Nonsense. Admiral Dan Gallery was NOT court-martialed. Many other German vessels were captured with cipher materials intact earlier in the war, including trawlers, weather ships and supply ships ---- very useful in identifying U-boat rendezvous points. 'Nuff Said.... And then OP 20-G should get a great deal of the credit. 'Nuff Said.... One does not just break a cipher ONCE and for all time -- a continuous effort is a _sine qua non_. DSH > Nonsense. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > DSH this news group is the best, now let me see u-505 / enigma / ------------ American revolution ??????????? bob D. Spencer Hines D_SpencerHines@usa.yale.edu says... >Nonsense. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >ships ---- very useful in identifying U-boat rendezvous points. 'Nuff >Said.... That's true, but mostly, they were captured for the purpose when it was needed. That's not what Adm. Gallery did. He acted on his own, apparently not aware of the enigma project and what had been done. It's true that the action embarrassed the Navy (& everyone else) because it added nothing needed and could easily have blown the whole enigma-reading program. I know nothing, btw, about the way he handled the prisoners aboard ship. SignatureR. N. (Dick) Wisan - Email: wisanr@catskill.net - Snail: 37 Clinton Street, Oneonta NY 13820, U.S.A. - Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax. Wisan-san where DO you get these thoroughly loony ideas of yours? You "Liberal" academics believe the wildest things imaginable when it comes to DEBUNKING historical nonsense ---- yet seem to have no respect for or even understanding of the concept of operations conducted with SKILL, RISK and DARING ---- particularly when it comes to military and naval affairs. Now, Wisan-san, you are an academic, with a Ph.D. from Columbia, as I recall. Is that correct? You understand that academics should check their facts, review their evidence and not just shoot off their mouths carelessly -- voiced or on paper. You teach college students Philosophy in Upstate New York. Right? Please show us your evidence for this off-the-top opining: | ...That's not what Adm. Gallery did. He acted on his own, | apparently not aware of the enigma project and what had been done. | It's true that the action embarrassed the Navy (& everyone else) | because it added nothing needed and could easily have blown the | whole enigma-reading program. DSH P.S. Why, I believe some of you academic pogues would take General Washington to task for crossing the Delaware and attacking those "poor, allegedly intoxicated, defenseless Hessians" on Christmas Day 1776 ---- and then we might very well not even have a United States of America. Even Howard Fast, a hard-core Communist thought that was a brilliant stroke by Washington. P.P.S. And DO tell us just how [then Captain, later Admiral] Dan Gallery "acted on his own" against the wishes of Ernie King and others in Washington, D.C. and blew the mission. This should be fun. DSH | D. Spencer Hines D_SpencerHines@usa.yale.edu says... | > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] | - Snail: 37 Clinton Street, Oneonta NY 13820, U.S.A. | - Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax. D. Spencer Hines D_SpencerHines@usa.yale.edu says... >Wisan-san where DO you get these thoroughly loony ideas of yours? I have to admit I can't put my hand on the book(s), but I didn't invent the thought, and I don't retract anything. I hate to sound so much like Inger. Adm. Gallery's own account (in "U-505") claims the capture enabled us to read German code, but that book was published in 1957, well before Winterbotham broke the story about British codebreaking in "The Ultra Secret". (A book that dimmed a number of reputations.) At the time, and until Winterbotham's book, the secret held, and I do not doubt that Adm.Gallery acted and wrote in good faith. Nobody in on the secret could have mentioned it to him or to anyone else at the time. It's more likely that my source was British since they would have been quicker to mention a blunder by the USN, but it would have had to be a much later book than "U-505". SignatureR. N. (Dick) Wisan - Email: wisanr@catskill.net - Snail: 37 Clinton Street, Oneonta NY 13820, U.S.A. - Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax. You sound as if you are backing and filling, Wisan-san. Please remember, THIS is what you wrote: | ...That's not what Adm. Gallery did. He acted on his own, | apparently not aware of the enigma project and what had been done. | It's true that the action embarrassed the Navy (& everyone else) | because it added nothing needed and could easily have blown the | whole enigma-reading program. So, we are still awaiting the solid proof for all that. Note: Wisan-san is so dumb about this he doesn't even understand the difference between a code and a cipher. His Ph.D. [Columbia] is in PHILOSOPHY ---- which has very little relevance here -- although it SHOULD have taught him how to THINK and EXPRESS himself CLEARLY -- and obviously has not. DSH -------------------------------------------------------------- Wisan-san where DO you get these thoroughly loony ideas of yours? You "Liberal" academics believe the wildest things imaginable when it comes to DEBUNKING historical nonsense ---- yet seem to have no respect for or even understanding of the concept of operations conducted with SKILL, RISK and DARING ---- particularly when it comes to military and naval affairs. Now, Wisan-san, you are an academic, with a Ph.D. from Columbia, as I recall. Is that correct? You understand that academics should check their facts, review their evidence and not just shoot off their mouths carelessly -- voiced or on paper. You teach college students Philosophy in Upstate New York. Right? Please show us your evidence for this off-the-top opining: | ...That's not what Adm. Gallery did. He acted on his own, | apparently not aware of the enigma project and what had been done. | It's true that the action embarrassed the Navy (& everyone else) | because it added nothing needed and could easily have blown the | whole enigma-reading program. DSH P.S. Why, I believe some of you academic pogues would take General Washington to task for crossing the Delaware and attacking those "poor, allegedly intoxicated, defenseless Hessians" on Christmas Day 1776 ---- and then we might very well not even have a United States of America. Even Howard Fast, a hard-core Communist thought that was a brilliant stroke by Washington. P.P.S. And DO tell us just how [then Captain, later Admiral] Dan Gallery "acted on his own" against the wishes of Ernie King and others in Washington, D.C. and blew the mission. This should be fun. DSH "Dick Wisan" <wisanr@catskill.net> wrote in message news:c2deju01405@enews1.newsguy.com... | D. Spencer Hines D_SpencerHines@usa.yale.edu says... | > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | >earlier in the war, including trawlers, weather ships and supply | >ships ---- very useful in identifying U-boat rendezvous points. 'Nuff | >Said.... | [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] | - Snail: 37 Clinton Street, Oneonta NY 13820, U.S.A. | - Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax. | D. Spencer Hines D_SpencerHines@usa.yale.edu says... | > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] | - Snail: 37 Clinton Street, Oneonta NY 13820, U.S.A. | - Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax. > You sound as if you are backing and filling, Wisan-san. > [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > U.S.A. > | - Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax. that is the general opinion on gallery's capture . nobody claims it wasn't a nice feat . it did have the chance of compromising the code reading efforts though . the fact the navy suppressed the news untill after the war is proof enough of their concern over this . gallery wanted to capture a u-boat for his own ego and for the fun of it that is had a boarding party ready and trained for just such a chance . gallery was unique , his novels are a hoot and who knows if the tirpitz had ever showed up off of iceland when dan was in command he might have sunk it , he had that plan worked out and ready . Just who is this great authority figure..."'Nuff"?? > Nonsense. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > DSH >Enigma... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Read up on Admiral Dan Gallery and U-505 ---- for starters. You mean the damn fool who just wouldn't take the hints of highers up and duplicated intelligence we already had at great risk of letting the secret out? Americans did very good work assisting the British with enigma, but this was no part of it. Peter Skelton >Enigma... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Read up on Admiral Dan Gallery and U-505 ---- for starters. As this is posted into soc.history.medieval, I can only assume that the term Enigma is used in its Tudor connotations, i.e. that is it a euphemism for a woman's private parts. This explains a lot. That the German navy kept an Enigma machine on each submarine for use by the crew and that Winston Churchill was very keen for one to be captured and brought to him. -- Julian Richards julian-richards "at" ntlworld.com Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse with people that you would never want in your house. >As this is posted into soc.history.medieval, I can only assume that >the term Enigma is used in its Tudor connotations, i.e. that is it a >euphemism for a woman's private parts. Thank you for that information, in future we can classify Spencer Whines as an Enigma, rather tha nthe more moden term I previously employed. -- Jim Watt Gibraltar Information and Images http://www.gibnet.com > . . . the German navy kept an Enigma machine on > each submarine for use by the crew and that Winston Churchill was very > keen for one to be captured and brought to him. Romantic fallacy . . . Every Kriegsmarine ship and every Wehrmacht command vehicle had an Enigma-type coding machine. The "secret" was not the machine (sold commercially for a decade before the war) but the cipher wheels and daily cipher settings. -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) Hmmmmmmm.... It's good to see someone here for a change who actually knows what he is talking about. Do pay attention, Wisan-san. I have often used the American version of Enigma [much improved of course] and this chap, DP, is not bugling nonsense ---- such as Wisan-san, and some others, have been. Why are many, not all, of these academics so flakey, Lord? DSH | > . . . the German navy kept an Enigma machine on | > each submarine for use by the crew and that Winston Churchill was very [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | Don Phillipson | Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > I have often used the American version of Enigma [much improved of > course] and this chap, DP, is not bugling nonsense ---- such as > Wisan-san, and some others, have been. I always though that the US in WWII used a version of the Swiss Hageline <sp> machine (after Billy Friedman made the US Navy code machine designers look like idiots anyway) that used cams and not a rotor based system at all. I'd have thought that all the mechanical code machines would have been long retired by your time in the service though... SignatureWilliam Black ------------------ Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government -- William Black ------------------ Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government > > . . . the German navy kept an Enigma machine on > > each submarine for use by the crew and that Winston Churchill was very [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > before the war) but the cipher wheels and daily > cipher settings. Indeed. In fact GCHQ even considered adopting the commercial Enigma sometime in the mid 1930s and did in fact purchase two machines for trial purposes. The principles were thoroughly understood - in fact the British first ran into Enigma encoded signals during the Spanish civil war and spent some time analysing them, however budget constraints meant that little progress was made at the time. What was important was the wiring and order of the rotors, the day keys, ground and ring settings and plugboard settings - although the latter was not that important as Gordon Welchman devised a system which almost nullified it. Although GCHQ owned a number of Enigma models, including AVA made machines, they were seldom if ever used in decryption as the modified TypeX machines were better suited to the task and less labour intensive. BTW IIRC U-505 yielded very little of importance, crypto-wise, other than a current Adressbuch which included some keys for disguising grid references. By the time of her capture Kriegsmarine codes had been consistently and regularly read for some years. Eugene >> > . . . the German navy kept an Enigma machine on >> > each submarine for use by the crew and that Winston Churchill was very [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >Eugene Interestingly enough research into Enigma theory has continued and there is software out there to decode messages (of sufficient length) without the need for cribs. -- Jim Watt Gibraltar Information and Images http://www.gibnet.com "Jim Watt" > > Interestingly enough research into Enigma theory has continued and > there is software out there to decode messages (of sufficient length) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Gibraltar Information and Images > http://www.gibnet.com the german habit of starting messages with hiel hitler helped alot . the u-505 capture could have caused the germans to modify their codes and codenames if it became known . it's capture didn't help code breaking but it could have hurt it . the u-505 does make a nice artifact of the war .and having their code broken reallky didn't help the western allies as much as it might because so much was held back from the field commaners . the russians did much better with their high placed spy. > "Jim Watt" > > > Interestingly enough research into Enigma theory has continued and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > much was held back from the field commaners . the russians did much better > with their high placed spy. Hardly When Sorge reported the Germans were planning to invade the Soviets did not act on his reports. The fact that they later accepted his reports that Japan would not attack the USSR were a more intelligent use of his reports but the initial mistake cost millions of lives. Keith > > "Jim Watt" > > > > Interestingly enough research into Enigma theory has continued and [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Keith i wasn't thinking about sorge . yes he was well placed . but i was refering to "lucy ' most likely martin borman ,but who knows for sure , . lucy had access to all the nazi high command plans instantly { the fact that srgues for borman } and they acted on them in a timely fashion In alt.history.british Eugene Griessel <eugene@dynagen.co.za> wrote: >> > . . . the German navy kept an Enigma machine on >> > each submarine for use by the crew and that Winston Churchill was very [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> before the war) but the cipher wheels and daily >> cipher settings. >Indeed. In fact GCHQ even considered adopting the commercial Enigma >sometime in the mid 1930s and did in fact purchase two machines for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >that important as Gordon Welchman devised a system which almost >nullified it. >Although GCHQ owned a number of Enigma models, including AVA made >machines, they were seldom if ever used in decryption as the modified >TypeX machines were better suited to the task and less labour >intensive. >BTW IIRC U-505 yielded very little of importance, crypto-wise, other >than a current Adressbuch which included some keys for disguising grid >references. >By the time of her capture Kriegsmarine codes had been consistently >and regularly read for some years. I do believe that Julian Richards was making another somewhat humorous point which you have all missed. Go back and read his original post. ---- Paul J. Gans >I do believe that Julian Richards was making another somewhat >humorous point which you have all missed. Go back and read >his original post. I'm glad that someone was paying attention. -- Julian Richards julian-richards "at" ntlworld.com Usenet is how from the comfort of your own living room, you can converse with people that you would never want in your house. > > > . . . the German navy kept an Enigma machine on > > > each submarine for use by the crew and that Winston Churchill was very [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > By the time of her capture Kriegsmarine codes had been consistently > and regularly read for some years. One of the ways to increase protection against decypherment is to have a random alphabet on the rotors, the U.S. enigma look alike (KL-47) used snap on rotor rings in addition to the random alphabet. The Germans used A-B-C...etc. on every rotor. Indeed.... And several other clever mechanical, cryptologic and electrical enhancements. DSH | One of the ways to increase protection against decypherment is to have | a random alphabet on the rotors, the U.S. enigma look alike (KL-47) | used snap on rotor rings in addition to the random alphabet. The | Germans used A-B-C...etc. on every rotor. > One of the ways to increase protection against decypherment is to have > a random alphabet on the rotors, the U.S. enigma look alike (KL-47) > used snap on rotor rings in addition to the random alphabet. The > Germans used A-B-C...etc. on every rotor. I recall an interview with one of the senior code breakers at BP who recalled that when one of the Polish codebreakers told him this his reaction was stark disbelief. It was the one combination they had never even considered on the basis that nobody could be THAT stupid. Keith In alt.history.british raymond o'hara <reoh@comcast.net> wrote: >> > > I've no problem with historical fiction. I'm quite happy with stories >of [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> >> Surreyman > the poles got the first enigma machine . > the brits started fighting in the jungles the same day everybody else did >on dec 7th 1941 . but of course you knew that . > then of course theres that accurate movie , breaking the sound barrier , >about how glen dehavilland breaks the sound barrier . the movie zulu is dead >on and take gunga din there's another movie that never strays from the >facts . yes brit movie making is nothing but the literal truth and we are >all blessed by this . Don't allow the subject to drift. The complaint is about folks who *claim* that their movie is history. As an example you might consider the Fifth of the Four Gospels, the Gospel according to Gibson. ---- Paul J. Gans In alt.history.british John Gilmer <gilmer@crosslink.net> wrote: >> I've no problem with historical fiction. I'm quite happy with stories of >> people who *could* have been there but weren't recorded and with the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> the daredevil capture of enigma secrets was done by US personnel rather >> than the RN? >What a silly old a.s you are. >It's a MOVIE. >The UK is quite welcome to make its own MOVIES. >(Actually, the "Bond, James Bond" movies are filmed in UK studios. I don't >see Americans complaining that there really isn't a secret UK base in Hong >Kong. I guess Americans have better things to do with their time than >worry about the "accuracy" of works of mostly fiction.) Until they are presented as the truth. ---- Paul J. Gans In alt.history.british John Gilmer <gilmer@crosslink.net> wrote: >> But John, you aren't the one citing movies as authorities for >> everything from history to manuals of ethics. >In particular, I don't know what you are talking about. Do you? >In general, fiction can be and often is quite useful in helping folks >understand history and ethics. Oh, I surely do. Most of these threads start when the local loon (actually, he's not so local any more) starts to praise some movie and tells all democrats, liberals, socialists, etc., etc., that they ought to see it because it will teach them something. The last example of that was the Mel Gibson movie "The Patriot" where he claimed that the putative hero of the movie was a good role model, not only in the movie but in real life. That set things off since the character in the movie is just that, a character in a movie. On the other hand, you are right when you say that fiction can be useful. But not when read by the gullible. ---- Paul J. Gans > > one } pogue is a limey term, and has no meaning to an american and > > should not be used by an american either although we don't wish to claim [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It's fiction. It's not even myth - but the use of real names of characters > helps produce & perpetuate new lies. one sees pogue on english news groups all the time as an epithet . the movie was over the top with the church burning scene and they changed everybodies name . tarleton became tavendish or some such thing . it was a typical mel gibson movie . > one sees pogue on english news groups all the time as an epithet . I've never heard anyone use the word or seen it in print. Of course this is (mainly) a British ng and you're using the word... > the movie was over the top with the church burning scene You mean they changed it so that the side that did something like that became the side that suffered from that? That's *not* what is meant by 'over the top'. > it was a typical mel gibson movie . Lies from beginning to end masquerading as truth. SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines > > one sees pogue on english news groups all the time as an epithet . Does one? One doesn't, except from Hawaii. Surreyman >> > one sees pogue on english news groups all the time as an epithet . > >Does one? One doesn't, except from Hawaii. > >Surreyman It's an Irish word. That's why the Yanks think it's English. DSH uses it because someone once called him a pogue and he thinks it makes him look hard. Liz > >> > one sees pogue on english news groups all the time as an epithet . > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Liz once? > >> > one sees pogue on english news groups all the time as an epithet . > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It's an Irish word. That's why the Yanks think it's English. DSH uses it because > someone once called him a pogue and he thinks it makes him look hard. So that's what turns him on? Surreyman In alt.history.british raymond o'hara <reoh@comcast.net> wrote: > one } pogue is a limey term, and has no meaning to an american and should >not be used by an american either although we don't wish to claim you . Pogue has a very definite meaning in the US Navy. It is a term used to describe those who will accept buggering out of either sexual need or fear. "Presents" given to such a person are known as "pogey bait". Do not confuse this usage with the Irish term or the musical group with the same or a similar name. Slang in different nations often overlaps more polite usage elsewhere. ---- Paul J. Gans > In alt.history.british raymond o'hara <reoh@comcast.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > group with the same or a similar name. Slang in different > nations often overlaps more polite usage elsewhere. Hopefully, you don't have a fanny and your wife ain't homely ... etc., etc! Surreyman >> In alt.history.british raymond o'hara <reoh@comcast.net> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> group with the same or a similar name. Slang in different >> nations often overlaps more polite usage elsewhere. >Hopefully, you don't have a fanny and your wife ain't homely ... etc., etc! <grin> But now you have it, the true meaning of the term as it uses it. ---- Paul J. Gans |
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