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History Forum / General / British History / May 2004Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners
Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners --------------------------------------------- The precursor; I saw pictures purporting to show evidence of torture and humiliation of Iraqi prisoners posted on soc.culture.iraq last evening. I dismissed them as a fabrication, because I simply *still* couldn't believe that US troops would do that to prisoners. I was wrong. -------------------------------------------- This morning's teletext carried the story of several soldiers being "severely reprimanded" because of their behaviour towards prisoners, and the Guardian carries a story using one of the pictures noted in the post given at the end of this post. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1206725,00.html Excerpts below "A military report into the Abu Ghraib case - parts of which were made available to the Guardian - makes it clear that private contractors were supervising interrogations in the prison, which was notorious for torture and executions under Saddam Hussein. "One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young, male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him. "Colonel Jill Morgenthaler, speaking for central command, told the Guardian: "One contractor was originally included with six soldiers, accused for his treatment of the prisoners, but we had no jurisdiction over him. It was left up to the contractor on how to deal with him." "She did not specify the accusation facing the contractor, but according to several sources with detailed knowledge of the case, he raped an Iraqi inmate in his mid-teens." ========================================================== Only the other day I warned on anohter NG that using private contractors was a big mistake. What do the experts now say they think? ========================================================== " "It's insanity," said Robert Baer, a former CIA agent, who has examined the case, and is concerned about the private contractors' free-ranging role. "These are rank amateurs and there is no legally binding law on these guys as far as I could tell. Why did they let them in the prison?" "The Pentagon had no comment yesterday on the role of contractors at Abu Ghraib, saying that an inquiry was still in progress." ========================================================== ========================================================== ========================================================== Yeah. Right. This is a thundering disgrace - gross, unprecedented, bizarre and unforgivable - to coin two phrases, but if you train soldiers in the School of the Americas, expect them to use what they've learnt. BTW, remember the "four bodies of private contractors" that were mutilated in the streets last week? Can you guess why? Posted on the 29th of April at 2:14 a.m. to soc.culture.iraq, alt.politics.bush, soc.culture.usa and talk.politics.mideast ================================================================ Janice, the bitch master, in all her glory: http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1212045.jpg A bitch friend mocking of a poor naked and humilliated Iraqis: http://www.thewest.com.au/pictures/250-gen30tort8.jpg Iraqi hooded, wired and threatened to be electrocuted if he falls from the box: http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/04/29/430_hoodedman,0.jpg Naked Iraqis make human pyramid to the joy of the Criminal Coalition Forces: http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/04/29/200_humanpyramid,0.jpg  Signature-darwin- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ============================================================== And if you think supporting torture is an isolated aberration in the United States, read this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,963497,00.html Uzbekistan makes the crimes of the Saddam regime look like puppy dogs playing in the sun - and Bush supports it! "The US is funding those it once condemned. Last year Washington gave Uzbekistan $500m (£300m) in aid. The police and intelligence services - which the state department's website says use "torture as a routine investigation technique" received $79m of this sum." Why? Its the Oil, stupid. And Corralling Russia. And the End Times. And any other distraction these inbred. privileged, stupid, WASP fuckwits can think of to justify their crimes and their support of criminals! How much more will it take to impeach this entire corrupt regime and their military war criminals? M. > Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners > --------------------------------------------- [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > > http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/04/29/200_humanpyramid,0.jpg Yes it is Vietnam revisited/ Well Roberto you f.cking wop what say you? LMAO > Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners > --------------------------------------------- [quoted text clipped - 117 lines] > > M. We cannot be seen to be either active or passive supporters of American tactics in Iraq. Americans filming naked Iraqi prisoners in doggy positions in the jails that Saddam Hussein made infamous, will not go down well in the Arab world. Let's get out now. This was America's war; not ours. > Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners [...] > M. I was horrified and sickened that that had happened. ...and the Americans aren't signatories to much international legislation, and they said that they would wage war against the Netherlands if any of their citizens were arrested and sent for trial here in The Hague. > > Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners > [...] > > M. > > I was horrified and sickened that that had happened. Amazing. So much killing going on and people get hysterical over a few photos. Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering thousands of innocent Iraqis and after years of causing deaths to kids by denying them medicines , now they are torturing innocents also???? > > > Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners > > [...] [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Amazing. So much killing going on and people get hysterical over a few > photos. > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering thousands of > innocent Iraqis and after years of causing deaths to kids by denying them [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > > > I was horrified and sickened that that had happened. (Snip) What is wrong with you people? Let the troops sort the job out properly. These are prisoners who have vital information and have been caught in the act of plotting and murdering. They are lucky they haven't been put against the wall and shot. It's because they are being hampered in their job by all of you hand wring dogooders that we don't have any order in the Country. Leave them alone- support our troops and let them sort out the job properly and efficiently. > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering thousands of > > innocent Iraqis and after years of causing deaths to kids by denying them [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What is wr-<SLAP!> How dare you excuse this obscenity, this torture, you witless fuckwit!!! Its people with morals like yours that we have to thank for years of apartheid in Northern Ireland, then years of "shoot-to-kill" policies that were continually denied by the British establishment. These bullying f.ckers with their boots, guns and electric cables shouldn't even be IN Iraq! They went in under false pretenses to take out non-existent weapons of mass destruction and now they are carrying out the same atrocities they accused Saddam of doing. His excuse, too, was that he was "dealing with" his enemies! Stopping these atrocities by Saddam was one of the better hypocritical reasons the Americans gave for the Invasion, even if they had previously chosen to completely ignore them. That doesn't give the Americans or ANYONE ELSE the right to abandon the precepts of International Law, ignore the Geneva Convention, the Geneva Protocols, the Hague Convention or anything else they are signatory to. Now f.ck off and learn the law. They do have law up in Nottingham, don't they? Oh, wait, lets see what story your ISP is carrying about this: http://www.ntlworld.com/partners/itn/world/1236623.php "Brigadier General Janice Karpinski, in charge of the prison, could be relieved of her command or blocked from promotion, Colonel Jill Morgenthaler, a military spokeswoman in Baghdad, said. "Karpinski, who left Iraq earlier this year as scheduled, "might be determined to be blameless," Colonel Morgenthaler added." Janice the Bitch might be blameless, ehhhh? No Moral Sense = blameless. Fucken marvellous. And what else? "Tony Blair's official spokesman also confirmed eight cases of alleged mistreatment of Iraqis by British personnel are being investigated by the army's Special Investigations Branch." So the Brits are at it too. But SIB will cover, sorry, CLEAR it all up, so that's alright then. No doubt ably assisted by Brigadier Gordon Kerr, formerly head of the Force Research Unit in Northern Ireland, the unit that fed 70% inaccurate information to the loyalist murder squads resulting in the deaths of hundreds of innocent catholics, and who is now stationed as head of British Military Intelligence in Iraq. Plus ça fucken change! M. > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering thousands of > > > innocent Iraqis and after years of causing deaths to kids by denying them [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > M. I can tell that you are some out of work sponging doley who obviously knows nothing about nothing. You are a traitor and should be put to work immediately instead of joining the latest trendy anti-civilisation protest fads. You tree hugging, anti-capitalist, scrounging little runt- put 'em in the Army thats what I say.... Support our troops in Iraq. Thank heavens that the US, Aussies & UK had the courage to get stuck into the Middle East problem. Now we have to support them-all the way. > > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering thousands of > > > > innocent Iraqis and after years of causing deaths to kids by denying [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > > > Plus ça fucken change! > > M. > I can tell that you are some out of > work sponging doley who obviously knows > nothing about nothing. You're so clever, you must have been one of those guys at school who rubbed sperm on their chests to make the hairs grow. > You are a traitor and should be > put to work immediately > instead of joining > the latest trendy anti-civilisation > protest fads. Since I'm Irish, and I posted only admitted facts, I cannot be a traitor, unless you think that its the business of the Irish people to either (i) Lie through their teeth following some unknown constitutional amendment only you see mot know about, or (ii) Kow-tow to every two bit would-be "Emperorr of the World" that throws you a bent coin. We threw off that British conditioning *before* Independence. Do keep up, there's a good chap. > You tree hugging, anti-capitalist, > scrounging little runt- put 'em in the > Army thats what I say.... <snicker> This, from a man whose lily-white skin has never seen carbolic soap, much less the inside of a dugout. > Support our troops in Iraq. Support your own fucken troops. > Thank heavens that the US, Aussies > & UK had the courage to get stuck into > the Middle East problem. Yeah, sold down the river by theire leaders, whose sons and daughters definitely ARE NOT in Iraq. > Now we have to support them-all the way. Mindless. Its like watching a colony insect leave scent messages. M. > > > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering thousands of > > > > > innocent Iraqis and after years of causing deaths to kids by denying [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > > <snicker> Well seeing as you admit to being a foreigner to these shores I'd keep your nose out of our business then. Just like I would keep my nose out of your Irish governments business. You speak of Irish independence- seeing as most good Irish men emigrated to the UK, USA and Australia after your so called Independence- it shows what side their bread was buttered on. Go and hug a tree and sing your rebel songs. > > > > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering > thousands of [quoted text clipped - 122 lines] > foreigner to these shores I'd keep your > nose out of our business then. Actually, as of today, May 1st 2004, we are all Europeans, so I'm not sure what you mean by "foreigner". I wouldn't expect a snotty-nosed xenophobe like you to be aware of the date of course, since some countries are more committed than others. Considering many of the people from other countries living in Britain are from former colonies, you can't really call them foreign either. Unless, of course, you mean the Arabs. But since Britain betrayed them using Lawrence of Arabia, you might feel you owe them something. Or not. > Just like I would keep my nose out of your Irish governments business. That must make a first for any Briton. But then again, its a bit like a criminal asking the police not to investigate him on the grounds of confidentiality. Given the attempts made by Thatchers cronines to hamper the Stalker Inquiry, and the reasons put about by her supporters, I should have expected such a lame attempt at "fire-proofing" any investigation. Two chances. > You speak of Irish independence- seeing > as most good Irish men emigrated to > the UK, USA and Australia after > your so called Independence- it shows what > side their bread was buttered on. Yes, they could see you didn't know how to build or have a good time, so they took pity on you. We've always been generous with our talent. All the more odd for any WASP country to consider Irish people as "foreign". But no doubt you keep your Irony Detector turned off when you post, otherwise you'd never post anything. > Go and hug a tree and sing your rebel songs. <tee hee hee> I'm sorry to shatter your comfort-blanket image of Irish people, but few of us go around hugging trees. Especially not since the Americans removed a few more from near Shannon Airport in case all the Irish Al-Q'ida members hid behind it to throw rocks at American Airplanes and wave at their pals in uniform. M. > > > > > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering > > thousands of [quoted text clipped - 130 lines] > > Considering many of the people from other countries living in Britain are > from former colonies, you can't really call them foreign either. > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > M. Actually the comment about tree hugging was not directed at Irish people it was directed at you-stupid boy. Your repeated drivel and comments suggest you have a massive chip on your shoulder about Britain and our Allies- so why don't you just go and live in a tent in Lybia? The enlargement of the EU today by another 10 Bankrupt States- is all about freeloading and not about Cultural and Political togetherness. Of course freeloading and jumping on the bandwaggon is something you will know quite a lot about. > > > > > > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering > > > thousands of [quoted text clipped - 127 lines] > > > > > > > > Do keep up, there's a good chap. > > > > > You tree hugging, anti-capitalist, > > > > > scrounging little runt- put 'em in the > > > > > Army thats what I say.... > > > > <snicker> > > > Well seeing as you admit to being a > > > foreigner to these shores I'd keep your > > > nose out of our business then. > > Actually, as of today, May 1st 2004, > > we are all Europeans, so I'm not > > sure what you mean by "foreigner". > > I wouldn't expect a snotty-nosed > > xenophobe like you to be aware of the > > date of course, since some countries > > are more committed than others. > > Considering many of the people from > > other countries living in Britain are > > from former colonies, you can't really > > call them foreign either. > > Unless, of course, you mean the Arabs. > > But since Britain betrayed them > > using Lawrence of Arabia, you might > > feel you owe them something. Or not. > > > Just like I would keep my nose out > > > of your Irish governments business. > > That must make a first for any Briton. > > But then again, its a bit like a > > criminal asking the police not to > > investigate him on the grounds of > > confidentiality. > > Given the attempts made by Thatchers > > cronines to hamper the Stalker > > Inquiry, and the reasons put about > > by her supporters, I should have > > expected such a lame attempt at > > "fire-proofing" any investigation. > > Two chances. > > > You speak of Irish independence- seeing > > > as most good Irish men emigrated to > > > the UK, USA and Australia after > > > your so called Independence- it shows what > > > side their bread was buttered on. > > Yes, they could see you didn't > > know how to build or have a good time, so > > they took pity on you. We've always > > been generous with our talent. All > > the more odd for any WASP country > > to consider Irish people as "foreign". > > But no doubt you keep your Irony Detector > > turned off when you post, > > otherwise you'd never post anything. > > > Go and hug a tree and sing your rebel songs. > > <tee hee hee> > > I'm sorry to shatter your comfort-blanket > > image of Irish people, but few [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > rocks at American Airplanes and wave at > > their pals in uniform. > > M. > Actually the comment about tree > hugging was not directed at Irish people it > was directed at you-stupid boy. <looks up - notes no rebuttals to any comments made...> Well, I'm glad you cleared that up. I haven't hugged a tree in a while, but I suggest you're more in need of a tree hug than any white man in history. > Your repeated drivel and comments > suggest you have a massive chip on your > shoulder about Britain and our Allies- > so why don't you just go and live in > a tent in Lybia? Libya is now a British ally, fool. Don't you even listen to the news occassionally? It voluntarily opened itself to inspections following several months of British efforts in that direction. If it had been anyone else but Blair at the helm the British Government could have taken center stage and denounced the ham-fisted American invasions of Afhanistan and Iraq for the war-mongering they were, citing Britain's brilliant DIPLOMATIC success as reason enough for reining in American troops abroad. But it *is* Blair, the butt-suckr of all things American, and that just didn't happen that way, more's the pity. > The enlargement of the EU today by > another 10 Bankrupt States- is all about > freeloading and not about Cultural > and Political togetherness. What a jaundiced little piece of trash you are. > Of course freeloading and jumping > on the bandwaggon is something you will > know quite a lot about. "Freeloading and jumping on the bandwaggon"? As opposed to "invading, stealing, murdering, raping and enslaving"? Yeah. You're probably right. M. > > > > > > > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering > > > > thousands of [quoted text clipped - 255 lines] > > M. Well thank goodness that's cleared up now. You are going to live in a tent in Libya, you are a freeloading scrounger and you do have a chip on your shoulder and love to write drivel. Hurrah! God Bless America and Rule Britannia ;-) > > > > > > > > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering > > > > > thousands of [quoted text clipped - 281 lines] > Hurrah! > God Bless America and Rule Britannia ;-) <shakes head> I realise you're still going through the British school system, but comprehension is a pretty basic prerequisite for understanding what someone has written. You lack this skill. Let me help you. If I had a chip on my shoulder about Britain her Allies, AND Libya is now an ally, then I WOULD NOT be going to Libya. See? If your sense of direction was somehow passed on from the genes of some WWII fighter, I wonder how you ever won the war. Oh that's right. You didn't. America won it for you. No surprise that you're still sucking her Butt. How French. You can stop drooling over your keyboard now. M. > > > > > > > > > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering > > > > > > thousands of [quoted text clipped - 303 lines] > > M More Drivel. Just because Libya came to the West to apologise for all of their past evil doing and begged not be be "liberated" by the Coalition forces does not make them an "ally" in my book. But it is at least, a start. And yes- we do owe a debt of friendship to the USA- as they did help us defeat evil doers in the past Century. (the kaiser, nazi germany, imperial japan, korea, ussr, yugoslavia, taliban, saddam and now your beloved Lybia too) I hope North Korea is the next one to phone Washington begging for forgiveness. Your anti-Americanism and anti-Britishness is of course your perogative- you can be thankful that you are allowed to share your poisonous musings. Now stop insulting me and start treating me with the respect my title and intellect deserves- you stupid boy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America > slaughtering [quoted text clipped - 336 lines] > > > > M > More Drivel. Not many people announce they're about to splurge, I'll give you that. > Just because Libya came to the West > to apologise for all of their past evil > doing and begged not be be "liberated" > by the Coalition forces does not make > them an "ally" in my book. > But it is at least, a start. Yep, drivel. Good call. > And yes- we do owe a debt of friendship > to the USA- as they did help us [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I hope North Korea is the next one to > phone Washington begging for forgiveness. You poor, sad, deluded Brit. Why do you think Britain doesn't have an Empire any more? The Rubber Barons and the Railroad Barond, the Timber Barons and the Steel Barons of North America, the ones who wiped out the Indians, when they were finished carving up that continent between them, first looked to the Spanish colonies in the Phillippines and adjoining islands, thenm having "liberated" them folloing the pretext of the Maine, looked to the east, to Europe and said, yep, lets take out the controllign interests there and "liberate" *that* future market. > Your anti-Americanism and anti-Britishness > is of course your perogative- you > can be thankful that you are allowed > o share your poisonous musings. I'm not musing. The fact that a right wing coup was planned by these élite deviants using Major General Smedley Butler as their front man is a fact of history. Butler blew the whistle and submitted his comments to Congress in his famous War is a Racket speech. Didn't you know that the American regime blocked an amendment against War Profiteerring for this invasion? > Now stop insulting me and start treating > me with the respect my title and > intellect deserves- you stupid boy. Let's see now. Just a paragraph ago you stated: ==================================== > Your anti-Americanism and anti-Britishness > is of course your perogative ==================================== ...yet several paragraphs ago, I gave credit where its due to the British diplomatic effort that brought Muammar Ghaddaffi in from the cold, and I quote; - "If it had been anyone else but Blair at the helm the British Government could have taken center stage and denounced the ham-fisted American invasions of Afhanistan and Iraq for the war-mongering they were, citing Britain's brilliant DIPLOMATIC success as reason enough for reining in American troops abroad." I'd say you're already getting all the respect your intellect and knowledge of the subject deserves - and maybe a little more besides. M. <snip> "r" is me when I'm surfing with Javascript on, BTW. M. > <snip> > > "r" is me when I'm surfing with Javascript on, BTW. > > M. aRse would be more approprate and immediately recognisable. I think I shall refer to you as this from now on. > > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > aRse would be more approprate and immediately recognisable. > I think I shall refer to you as this from now on. From a guy whose nic and online empire seems based on recycled dog food containers, and the inability to rebut poster's comments, its good to see you've found something appropriate to do with your talents. Don't give up the day job. M. > > > <snip> > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > M. Talking through your aRse again I see... > > > > <snip> > > > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Talking through your aRse again I see... How can you see anything with your head where its at? M. ><snip> > >"r" is me when I'm surfing with Javascript on, BTW. > >M. AAARRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! SignatureBrian Fraser Lovett-White http://www.finhall.demon.co.uk > ><snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > AAARRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! <chuckle> NOW you've torn it! M. >Well seeing as you admit to being a foreigner to these shores I'd keep your >nose out of our business then. If you didn't post your diarrhea to newsgroups outside of your those appropriate to your little englander status then perhaps we might, you retard. f.ck AMERICANS > > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering thousands of > > > > innocent Iraqis and after years of causing deaths to kids by denying [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > Thank heavens that the US, Aussies & UK had the courage to get stuck into > the Middle East problem. Now we have to support them-all the way. In alt.history.british Sparks <qsc@eircom.net.spamguard> wrote: >f.ck AMERICANS That's a bit extreme, isn't it? Do you hold all Americans guilty for what the Administration has done? ---- Paul J. Gans >> > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering thousands >of [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] >> Thank heavens that the US, Aussies & UK had the courage to get stuck into >> the Middle East problem. Now we have to support them-all the way. > f.ck AMERICANS > > [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > Thank heavens that the US, Aussies & UK had the courage to get stuck into > > the Middle East problem. Now we have to support them-all the way. Sparks, I'm not sure if you're aware of the historical association of the nic on Usenet but I'd just like you to know that I'm enjoying posting against you. As regards your comments, the only thing "ordinary" Americans are guilty of is supporting the people who provide their employment. They are in a double bind. They are taxed to pay for foreign wars and some of their children die in them, the lucky ones. The rest return home with mental and emotional scars and worst of all, terrible drug addictions. A whole generation of heroin users was fostered during the Vietnam war, to the benefit of the CIA who then went on to supply the domestic heroin and cocaine market in the United States. One operative who helped run this extravaganza, when asked how he justified it, countered with: "Well, who's taking the drugs? Lefties and commies. That sure doesn't upset my apple cart." Or words to that effect. Compassionate Conservatives - who can fathom their deep thoughts and strategies...? M. >I can tell that you are some out of work sponging doley who obviously knows >nothing about nothing. Can you now? Is that because you are one too, you fascist fucktard? > > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering thousands of > > > innocent Iraqis and after years of causing deaths to kids by denying them [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > apartheid in Northern Ireland, then years of "shoot-to-kill" policies > that were continually denied by the British establishment. Now dont be a racist and forget the atrocities that the scum sinnfein/ira carried out on innocent civilians or does that not count you f.cking dimshit. > These bullying f.ckers with their boots, guns and electric cables > shouldn't even be IN Iraq! They no doubt should be in NI as members of the sinnfein/ira scum. > They went in under false pretenses to take out non-existent weapons of > mass destruction and now they are carrying out the same atrocities they > accused Saddam of doing. Prove it? > His excuse, too, was that he was "dealing with" his enemies! He was and that was said on numerous occassions in NI when the scum of sinnfein/ira topped the innocents. > "Tony Blair's official spokesman also confirmed eight cases of alleged > mistreatment of Iraqis by British personnel are being investigated by the > army's Special Investigations Branch." > > So the Brits are at it too. But SIB will cover, sorry, CLEAR it all up, > so that's alright then. Talking out of your arse as normal, I see > No doubt ably assisted by Brigadier Gordon Kerr, formerly head of the > Force Research Unit in Northern Ireland, the unit that fed 70% inaccurate > information to the loyalist murder squads resulting in the deaths of > hundreds of innocent catholics, and who is now stationed as head of > British Military Intelligence in Iraq. WHerer were the hundreds of catholics and if so name them dickhead. > Plus ça fucken change! > > M. <snip> > > Its people with morals like yours > > that we have to thank for years of > > apartheid in Northern Ireland, then > > years of "shoot-to-kill" policies > > that were continually denied by > > the British establishment. > Now dont be a racist and forget Racists never forget - your comment makes no sense. > the atrocities that the scum sinnfein/ira > carried out on innocent civilians or does > that not count you f.cking > dimshit. Of course it counts [dimwit/dipshit/dipstick but NOT dimshit - *mheh*]. Just as the atrocities that the RUC committed on Nationalist Peace Marchers in 1969 matters. And so on. And on. But with the IRA post-1970 there was a difference. Finally the British were facing someone as equally mobile they were as far as morals were concerned, less well-equipped, bur far more determined. Less well-sourced, but equally less inclined to believe the lies put out by Britain in her defense. The only real difference was, of course, that the IRA *weren't* pretending to be an even-handed, democratic, law-abiding sovereign government at the time, who were pretending to fulfill their obligations to all their electorate. > > These bullying f.ckers with their boots, > > guns and electric cables > > shouldn't even be IN Iraq! > They no doubt should be in NI > as members of the sinnfein/ira scum. Maybe they should. They look like they could do with some *real* anti-guerilla training. One thing the IRA have NOT done was take photos of nekkid men trying to make human pyramids. Another thing the IRA have NOT done was use "contractors" to rape teenage boys. Unless you can post proof to thecontrary of course. > > They went in under false pretenses > > to take out non-existent weapons of > > mass destruction and now they are > > carrying out the same atrocities they > > accused Saddam of doing. > Prove it? Unless you missed the news today, and for several months previous to this everything in the statement you questioned is certain fact. Perhaps your second neuron isn't firing. Argue with David Kay, if you don't believe me. "We were wrong" His words, not mine. > > His excuse, too, was that he was > > "dealing with" his enemies! > He was and that was said on numerous > occassions in NI when the scum of > sinnfein/ira topped the innocents. You realise that you've just lumped in Saddam, the American Marines and the IRA into the same hole... As for the comment that he was "dealing with his enemies", I'm sure Brigadier Blair said it when he knowingly passed on the names of innocent catholics to loyalist murder squads. I'm sure MI5 said exactly that when the sanctioned the killing of the Gibraltar Three. I'm sure the British Police said the same thing again when they framed the Guilford Four and the Birmingham Six. And yes, I'm sure both the IRA and Loyalist Murder Squads said that little phrase as well. You think there's some common denominator amongst all these groups? > > "Tony Blair's official spokesman > > also confirmed eight cases of alleged > > mistreatment of Iraqis by British > > personnel are being investigated by the > > army's Special Investigations Branch." > > So the Brits are at it too. But SIB > > will cover, sorry, CLEAR it all up, > > so that's alright then. > Talking out of your arse as normal, I see Unlike you, I've read the Cory Reports, and they make damning reading. Covering up is a way of life in Britain's security establishments. http://www.serve.com/pfc/cory/intro.html I have lost all faith in Britain's ability to deal fairly with any country that isn't White, Anglo-Saxon and Protestant, with a large Orange Lodge movement thrown in for good measure. That's - Canada Australia and the United States - in case your first neuron has just collapsed from the strain. > > No doubt ably assisted by Brigadier > > Gordon Kerr, formerly head of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > who is now stationed as head of > > British Military Intelligence in Iraq. > WHerer were the hundreds of catholics and if so name them dickhead. {WHerer?) Why would I name dead people "dickhead"? I name *You* dickhead instead. Dickhead. M. > > Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering thousands of > > innocent Iraqis and after years of causing deaths to kids by denying them [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Leave them alone- support our troops and let them sort out the job properly > and efficiently. Those troops should not be there murdering innocents. GO HOME YANKEE!!!!!! Did you hear that before somewhere? In alt.history.british The Lord of the Tins <lordofthetins@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Yes but cant you see that as well as America slaughtering thousands of >> innocent Iraqis and after years of causing deaths to kids by denying them [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > > I was horrified and sickened that that had happened. >(Snip) >What is wrong with you people? >Let the troops sort the job out properly. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Leave them alone- support our troops and let them sort out the job properly >and efficiently. Listen fella. MY country doesn't torture people. Got that? Perhaps yours does. But worse, it is one thing to make a guy scream for a while. It is another to violate his cultural norms. You do humiliate by using woman (dressed) to mock a man's penis. But far worse, you don't take PICTURES of it and then allow them out into the world to be shown to his relatives and clan. The kinds of humiliation that some of the victims were subjected to will cause Americans to die. Imagine that the bad guys had captured you and, to make you talk, decided to violate *your* cultural norms. So they rape your children in front of you. Makes you want to talk to stop it, doesn't it? And so it works for them, right? And it makes you, your friends, and your neighbors willing to fight to the death to kill the animals who did it. NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND? Hearts and minds, feh. ----- Paul J. Gans > In alt.history.british The Lord of the Tins <lordofthetins@hotmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > ----- Paul J. Gans REMEMBER VIETNAM In alt.history.british Sparks <qsc@eircom.net.spamguard> wrote: >> In alt.history.british The Lord of the Tins <lordofthetins@hotmail.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> >> ----- Paul J. Gans >REMEMBER VIETNAM How we screwed up there too because of overwhelming hubris? We are fighting to get the respect of the locals. This is NOT the way to do it. Even Bush sees that. You don't. ----- Paul J. Gans > > In alt.history.british The Lord of the Tins <lordofthetins@hotmail.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > REMEMBER VIETNAM Well, you obviously don't kid. You can't even remember not to use the caps key when posting. M. > > > In alt.history.british The Lord of the Tins <lordofthetins@hotmail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > M. It was to emphasise my point Micky > > > > In alt.history.british The Lord of the Tins > <lordofthetins@hotmail.com> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > M. > It was to emphasise my point Micky Your "point Mickey"? You should be careful with that. A pointed mickey can be dangerous. M. >> > > > Imagine that the bad guys had captured you and, to make you >> > > > talk, decided to violate *your* cultural norms. So they [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >A pointed mickey can be dangerous. You could have somebody's eye out with it! SignatureBrian Fraser Lovett-White http://www.finhall.demon.co.uk > >> > > > Imagine that the bad guys had captured you and, to make you > >> > > > talk, decided to violate *your* cultural norms. So they [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > You could have somebody's eye out with it! from my perspective: I am horrified over are the pictures now in the news of naked prisoners being mistreated and the whole thing treated by the grinning females as one huge joke! Since the American soldier faces are visible and identifiable, I would like to hear there has been some arrests and courtsmarshals. I would like to know the commanding officer or senior non-commissioned officer has been arrested and likewise charged. The US bows it head in tears and sorrow over some damn fool who in drunken driving kills not only himself but the child riding with him. Then - condons abuse of prisoners - whatever the Iraqi's may have done to other Americans who were their prisoners. The 'fun' now will begin in earnest! We can be sure that any Americans will have that and as many other things done to them. Damn!!!! > from my perspective: >I am horrified over are the pictures now in the news of naked [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >like to know the commanding officer or senior non-commissioned officer >has been arrested and likewise charged. Hi Sally. from my perspective: I am horrified over the actions of the American soldiers, sickened by it - which is the only way I have seen *anyone* react. The soldiers should have been court-martialled already, as far as I am concerned, and their superiors axed as well. It should not have taken the media exposure to have seen heads roll over this. They'll be rolling, now, though. The reported excuses of "just following orders" or "the soldiers did not understand the Geneva boundaries" are disgusting. The smiling faces of the soldiers, their gloating ridicule of the naked Iraqis negate any claim of "order following". The bullshit about not understanding the rules is an equally despicable attempt to not take responsibility for their actions. If a daughter or son of mine was serving in the military and acted in this manner, I would say "throw the book at 'em", not be claiming (as some of these parents are reported to be) that my kid had been "railroaded". No person should be able to act in this manner without consequences. This has little to do with the "rules of war" and more to do with the "rules of humanity", rules which were clearly broken by those soldiers. That does not mean that their training should not have included clear instruction regarding the treatment of prisoners. It means that no one should have to be TOLD that you do not do this to other human beings, EVER. >The US bows it head in tears and sorrow over some damn fool who in >drunken driving kills not only himself but the child riding with him. >Then - condons abuse of prisoners - whatever the Iraqi's may have done >to other Americans who were their prisoners. No, Sally. The US is not CONDONING this abuse. The country as a whole is OUTRAGED by the actions of these people. I predict you will see the soldiers serving time, their superiors fired, and anyone who covered this atrocity up held to account for that as well. It might take time, but Americans are not going to let it go. >The 'fun' now will begin in earnest! We can be sure that any >Americans will have that and as many other things done to them. >Damn!!!! You are probably correct about this. Unfortunately the Americans who end up similarly tortured as a result of this may be decent kids who are blameless and just as outraged as you and I are about the actions of these soldiers. I second your "damn". In alt.history.british Sally <esdemio@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >> >> > > > Imagine that the bad guys had captured you and, to make you >> >> > > > talk, decided to violate *your* cultural norms. So they [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> >> You could have somebody's eye out with it! > from my perspective: >I am horrified over are the pictures now in the news of naked [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Americans will have that and as many other things done to them. >Damn!!!! There have been arrests. The Army is looking into things. The mills of justice turn very slowly -- and that is the problem. The result of all this will take place far from Iraq and out of the sight of the Iraqis. After all, it would be a violation of the soldier's rights to subject them to a summary court martial right in front of the Iraqis. ---- Paul J. Gans > > "Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message > > > news:c6u45f$d84$4@reader2.panix.com... > But far worse, > > > > you don't take PICTURES of it and then allow them out into > > > > the world to be shown to his relatives and clan. No, I'm not trying to wriggle out of this ................. My first reaction was total horror and disgust. Then utter dismay - those few photos, as someone has suggested in another post, have undermined the Coalition's raison d'etre to virtually zero - whatever happens from now on about the incidents. As you said, Gans, a public stripping and demeaning *tomorrow* of these morons shown all over Arab TV might do something, but that's hardly democratic justice, is it? The more 'appropriate' enquiry and, presumably, punishment will have no effect in weeks/months time. But then I started wondering. I've still seen nothing about the origin of these photos, who took them, who gave them to who, how the papers got them? On most, there is nothing that could not have been staged by anyone in Al Qaida, for instance. A couple of the US photos have *apparent* westerners recognisable - have they been positively recognised? Whatever sadistic morons might have got up to in the prisons, I *cannot* understand why they would have been stupid enough to take such incriminating photos and then allow them to become publicly available. Has the veracity of the photos been proven and accepted? But no matter, really. Any attempt to prove a 'hoax', even if justifiable, would now be decried. The tragedy is, whatever, that the damage has been done. This really will have ramifications far beyond even the events' seriousness. Surreyman In alt.history.british a.spencer3 <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > > "Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message >> > > news:c6u45f$d84$4@reader2.panix.com... >> But far worse, >> > > > you don't take PICTURES of it and then allow them out into >> > > > the world to be shown to his relatives and clan. >No, I'm not trying to wriggle out of this ................. >My first reaction was total horror and disgust. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >The tragedy is, whatever, that the damage has been done. This really will >have ramifications far beyond even the events' seriousness. >Surreyman There's no doubt of the authenticity. The soldiers involved are in custody and making statements such as nobody told us about any Geneva Convention. I do not know the source of the photos. CBS (who broke the story) has said that others were going to publish the photos so they did first. The story has become well-known here, though the media were initially reluctant to touch it. It is being treated as a problem only in that it violated regulations. What it did to Arab perceptions is not understood here. Almost NOTHING is understood here about Arab anything. And, as I shouldn't have to say, I'm not pro-Arab, but I'm not in favor of killing them all to tame them either. ---- Paul J. Gans > In alt.history.british a.spencer3 <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > > > "Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > And, as I shouldn't have to say, I'm not pro-Arab, but I'm > not in favor of killing them all to tame them either. That dismays me further - there are whispers this morning that the Brit photos 'weren't right' - talk of wrong type of weapons, etc. But it doesn't matter. No-one will believe nuffink any more. Well, you'd better tell your people: /1/ Any moral ground the Coalition had has been demolished in Arab (and most other) eyes. /2/ Watch for appalling reprisals. /3/ These photos could well be the catalyst for a premature removal of Coalition troops which, as we stand today, no-one would normally agree with. A few days ago we were all asking, 'Can it get any worse' ....................!!!!! Surreyman > That dismays me further - there are whispers this morning that the Brit > photos 'weren't right' - talk of wrong type of weapons, etc. But it doesn't > matter. No-one will believe nuffink any more. More than that... Wrong type of hat being worn. Wrong rifle fittings Wrong type of truck Anyone who knows anything about the British army will know that someone who wear the wrong type of hat for their regiment is 'noteable'. The rifle sling has details wrong, it seems it isn't an infantry pattern, but the unit concerned is an infantry battalion The type of truck shown wasn't deployed to Iraq. The most likely suggestion so far is that it's a bunch of Territorials still in the UK making loads of cash from the gullible gutter press. The Mirror is violently against the war and probably didn't check to hard before going to press. SignatureWilliam Black ------------------ Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government > > That dismays me further - there are whispers this morning that the Brit > > photos 'weren't right' - talk of wrong type of weapons, etc. But it [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > is violently against the war and probably didn't check to hard before going > to press. No possibility that it's a bloody effective 'Al Qaida' type black propoganda? Not suggesting, just asking. I'm not au fait with current equipment. Whatever, why the hell hasn't it all been sorted one way or t'other - instant??!! People don't seem to realise how serious this all is. It's by no means a matter just of some morons going ape. Seems the US versions *have* been verified, tragically. Surreyman > > > That dismays me further - there are whispers this morning that the Brit > > > photos 'weren't right' - talk of wrong type of weapons, etc. But it [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > propoganda? Not suggesting, just asking. I'm not au fait with current > equipment. Not impossible but very implausable. Why bother. As far as Al Qaida and friends are concerned there's no reputation blackening to be done, their mindset is something like Evan Brennans. > Whatever, why the hell hasn't it all been sorted one way or t'other - > instant??!! Because it takes time. I imagine the Lt Col of 'whoever' has been told to study the photos and report back to the boss with a list of names of people to report to GOC bloody damn quick for ritual disembowelment followed by a full court martial and guaranteed glasshouse time in Colechester. He's come back and said 'Not my lot mate, try next door'. So far it's taken about 24 hours, which isn't bad for the British army at weekends, as a rule they all finish at 12:00 on Friday. SignatureWilliam Black ------------------ Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government > Not impossible but very implausable. > > Why bother. As far as Al Qaida and friends are concerned there's no > reputation blackening to be done, their mindset is something like Evan > Brennans. Can't agree there. If it was AQ & co. it would have been bloody brilliant - Coalition moral standing with (the vast majority) passive Arabs/Moslems demolished - plus disgust within the home countries. Surreyman In alt.history.british a.spencer3 <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote: >> In alt.history.british a.spencer3 <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote: >> > > > "Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >> And, as I shouldn't have to say, I'm not pro-Arab, but I'm >> not in favor of killing them all to tame them either. >That dismays me further - there are whispers this morning that the Brit >photos 'weren't right' - talk of wrong type of weapons, etc. But it doesn't >matter. No-one will believe nuffink any more. >Well, you'd better tell your people: >/1/ Any moral ground the Coalition had has been demolished in Arab (and most >other) eyes. >/2/ Watch for appalling reprisals. >/3/ These photos could well be the catalyst for a premature removal of >Coalition troops which, as we stand today, no-one would normally agree with. >A few days ago we were all asking, 'Can it get any worse' >....................!!!!! >Surreyman You've probably seen now the reports that there were some strange goings on in Basra as well. My pet theory at the moment is that this particular section of the prison was used by "special interrogation" groups. At least that's what the commanding general says she was told -- and she was told to not bother with what went on there. Washington is in total denial at the moment over any broader scandal. We will see what happens. It seems, as you say, to have now come down to naked force. Our rationale for being there is that we *can* be there and nobody can stop us. All the rest is just nonsense. ---- Paul J. Gans Has every one forgotten about Army rank? Jessica Lynch? Wasn't she violated? Has there been other Coalition Women & Men Soldiers violated that we haven't heard of any details or their names? Has there been civilian men and women, regardless of race or national origin, violated or persecuted in many unmentionable ways? > In alt.history.british a.spencer3 <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote: > > > > "Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > ---- Paul J. Gans > Has every one forgotten about Army rank? Jessica Lynch? Wasn't she > violated? By the Us Military? Yes. I believe she had a breakdown because of the whole concocted story about her. In reality she crashed her truck and Iraqis assisted her by taking her to a hospital. the Marines then stormed the hospital an the whole abduction story was concocted to make the invasion look humanitarian. > Has there been other Coalition Women & Men Soldiers violated that we haven't > heard of any details or their names? I am quite sure there might well be. But the US/UK are not going to publicise abuse by their own troops on themselves are they? > Has there been civilian men and women, regardless of race or national > origin, violated or persecuted in many unmentionable ways? Indeed there has! At least 15,000 it seems were killed by the invading forces and hundreds of thousands were displaced and starved because of sanctions and the evils of Saddam. [snip] > Has every one forgotten about Army rank? Jessica Lynch? Wasn't she > violated? It seems not. According to the lady's story she was well treated throughout. SignatureWilliam Black ------------------ Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government > > Has every one forgotten about Army rank? Jessica Lynch? Wasn't she > > violated? > It seems not. > According to the lady's story she was well treated throughout. Received the best of medical attention. Coalition prisoners don't seem to have been treated particularly worse than Iraqis taken prisoner by the coalition. How Saddam treated his own people is another matter. J/ >> > Has every one forgotten about Army rank? Jessica Lynch? Wasn't she >> > violated? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > have been treated particularly worse than Iraqis taken prisoner by the > coalition. How Saddam treated his own people is another matter. I would even go so far as to sat that coalition patients were treated no worse than Iraqi patients. But then again, I don't have to. Private Lynch already did. Ian D. In alt.history.british William Black <black_william@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Has every one forgotten about Army rank? Jessica Lynch? Wasn't she >> violated? >It seems not. >According to the lady's story she was well treated throughout. She's hardly say otherwise, would she? Down south, the old ways still prevail. At least the formalities of the old ways. Thus a man *NEVER* admits he had sex with anyone other than his wife and all non-married women are virgins. Don't confuse the formality with reality. Southerners are no more stupid than anyone else. They are often just more polite. ----- Paul J. Gans > > > Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners > > [...] [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Amazing. So much killing going on and people get hysterical over a few > photos. Hysterical ha? And what if that was an American in those photos?? It's not on, most especially since Americans are trying to convince the world that they were there in Iraq to make the lives of people better. > > > > Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners > > > [...] [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > not on, most especially since Americans are trying to convince the world > that they were there in Iraq to make the lives of people better. That'll make a change for them, won't it? M. >Hysterical ha? And what if that was an American in those photos?? The knee-jerk, proud-to-be-'mercan reactionaries would be whining at top volume. It would be front-page news. > > > Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners > > [...] [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and people get hysterical over a few > photos. BZZZZT! Please remove your head from your arse before posting again. Thank you for your time. BZZZZT! M. > > > Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners > > I was horrified and sickened that that had happened. > Amazing. So much killing going on and people get hysterical over a few > photos. If they'd let Iraqis run the jails, worse might have happened. No matter. What those Americans did will cost thousands of lives. It might have gone down better if they had purely tortured the prisoners. I can't think of anything Osama would have wanted more than pictures of American women soldiers carrying out sexually perverse acts on Muslim prisoners. It's like saying "Hey, Arab world, you were right to blow up the twin towers, 'cause this is the kind of people we are." It's too late to fix, but anything short of long jail sentences will make it even worse. C/ SOTW: "Trash" - New York Dolls www.bbc.co.uk/endofstory > > > > Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > It's too late to fix, but anything short of long jail sentences will make it > even worse. It *does* look like deliberate provocation, doesn't it? Its as if America is provoking an al-out attack by Muslims the world over to justify demonizing the head of its puppet force Al-Q'ida, Osama Bin Laden. Which would justify an all out war in the Middle East of course. All in accordance with the Plan for the New America Century. M. >> > > > Marines and Mercenaries Torture and sexually abuse Iraqi Prisoners >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >All in accordance with the Plan for the New America Century. "Wag the Dog!" SignatureBrian Fraser Lovett-White http://www.finhall.demon.co.uk ... > > It's too late to fix, but anything short of long jail sentences will make it > > even worse. > It *does* look like deliberate provocation, doesn't it? > Its as if America is provoking an al-out attack by Muslims the world over > to justify demonizing the head of its puppet force Al-Q'ida, Osama Bin > Laden. > Which would justify an all out war in the Middle East of course. > All in accordance with the Plan for the New America Century. I usually favour the cock-up theory over the conspiracy theory. I don't believe that there is some master plan to provoke a war. I think that there was no training to deal with prisoners, no awareness of Muslim and Arab cultural norms, and a lack of supervision. Osama came to hate the Americans because of, fundamentally, their attitude to women and sexual matters. He can now produce another tape saying "See! Told you so." The allegations about the type of sexual torture carried out in Guantanamo Bay seem a lot more credible now. C/ SOTW: "Trash" - New York Dolls www.bbc.co.uk/endofstory > ... > > > It's too late to fix, but anything short of long jail sentences will [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > was no training to deal with prisoners, no awareness of Muslim and Arab > cultural norms, and a lack of supervision. Might of been seeing their friends, burned, spit on and hung from a bridge. BfB > > ... > > > > It's too late to fix, but anything short of long jail sentences will [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > BfB I think you need to check your timeline. The murder and desecration of the "private contractors" occured a couple of weeks ago. This is long *after* the atrocites carried out on the prisoners. It is arguable that the murder and desecration of the "private contractors" occurred as a response to those violations. We may never know, but at least let us try and get the sequence right. M. > > Might of been seeing their friends, burned, spit on and hung from a > > bridge. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > We may never know, but at least let us try and get the sequence right. Oh, sorry. It's our fault again. "private contractors" http://www.blackwaterusa.com/ BfB > > > Might of been seeing their friends, burned, spit on and hung from a > > > bridge. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > > We may never know, but at least let us try and get the sequence right. > Oh, sorry. It's our fault again. The sequencing suggests extreme provocation of Iraqis. I don't condone the killings and the mutilation of the corpses. > "private contractors" > http://www.blackwaterusa.com/ Ta. Added to my Iraq-->War Crimes Bookmarks. M. > > > > Might of been seeing their friends, burned, spit on and hung from a > > > > bridge. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Ta. Atrocities? Detail them please. BfB > I usually favour the cock-up theory over the conspiracy theory. I don't > believe that there is some master plan to provoke a war. I think that there [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to women and sexual matters. He can now produce another tape saying "See! > Told you so." If you truly believe that this is bin Laden's motivation then you are gullible beyond all hope. Anything he may have said about American attitudes towards women is only a red herring. The only thing that motivates bin Laden is his sadistic ego. > > I usually favour the cock-up theory over the conspiracy theory. I don't > > believe that there is some master plan to provoke a war. I think that there [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > The only thing that motivates bin Laden is his sadistic ego. Well, just kill bin Laden and your troubles are over then. His mind slaves will be released from his control. C/ SOTW: "Trash" - New York Dolls www.bbc.co.uk/endofstory > > "westprog" <westprog@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:<lSQkc.6306$qP2.14345@news.indigo.ie>... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Well, just kill bin Laden and your troubles are over then. His mind slaves > will be released from his control. The CIA pulls the strings, not Bin Laden. M. > > > "westprog" <westprog@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:<lSQkc.6306$qP2.14345@news.indigo.ie>... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > The CIA pulls the strings, not Bin Laden. In a black string puller. > > I usually favour the cock-up theory over the conspiracy theory. I don't > > believe that there is some master plan to provoke a war. I think that there [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > The only thing that motivates bin Laden is his sadistic ego. And his CIA paycheck, delivered by the Pakistani ISI. M. > > > I usually favour the cock-up theory over the conspiracy theory. I don't > > > believe that there is some master plan to provoke a war. I think that there [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > And his CIA paycheck, delivered by the Pakistani ISI. In a black helicopter. > ... > > > It's too late to fix, but anything short of long jail sentences will [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I usually favour the cock-up theory > over the conspiracy theory. <nods> I see you've bought into the "cock up" theory wholesale. The PR that has achieved this in you takes disavowability to new depths. Its customary practice to deflect theories of conspiracy by saying, "that's only a conspiracy theory". However the PNAC is the Neocon Hawks own website [one of them actually]. Surely you're not so conditioned that when the people actually doing the conspiring, admit this on a public website and say, "we're conspiring" you reply with "no, you only think you are"? > I don't > believe that there is some master > plan to provoke a war. Your belief is not required, only your comprehension. :-) There is far more than that at issue. Read the Minority Report on Pearl Harbour. FDR set deliberately provoked the Japanese into attacking the fleet at Pearl. Operation Northwoods is on file at the NSArchive website. Again deaths of Americans were planned to support war abroad. The Maine was destroyed by a boiler explosion, yet the Americans blamed the Spanish and invaded the Philippines. The PNAC stated that a "Pearl Harbour type incident" was required to further their program - this was said before 9-11. 9-11 was carried out by Saudis yet, against all available evidence [not even an admission of guilt by Osama Bin Laden] a relatively unknown Islamic Fundamentalist organisation called Al-Q'ida was blamed. It turns out that Al-Q'ida was funded through the ISI the Pakistani secret service, by the CIA - no surprises - and that Osama Bin Laden had also bee n trained by the CIA, and used as an intelligence asset against the Russians. Again, against all available evidence America invaded Afghanistan. People forget that the Taliban had offered ot hand over Bin Laden to a neutral country [Pakistan, IIRC] on the production of evidence of his guilt by America. No evidence, and an invasion anyway, does not seem to me to be the course of fair minded people. No Iraqi was involved in 9-11 and no evidence for the alleged links between Osama Bin Laden and Iraq were ever produced. The idea that a secular state like Iraq, which had previously fought a ruinous war against a fundamentalist Islamic state like Iran, was succoured by Al-Q'ida made no sense. Yet again, another invasion, the reasons for which [WMDs] were never discovered. Once might seem unfortunate hot-headedness. Twice is evidence of a conspiracy using forged evidence, unfounded allegations and an atrocity committed on America soil to further the PNAC. Many of the highjackers received their training in Germany. Their alleged leader Mohammed Atta was sent on the Congress-Bundestag Program run by the Carl Duisberg Society or Carl Duisberg Gesellschaft, a program paid for by the American Taxpayer and run by an organization with close ties to Henry "corrupt fat little f.ck" Kissinger and David Rockefeller of Manhattan Institute fame and Chase Manhattan Bank, the money laundering arm of Post Nazi Germany. Conspiracy? Oh a real beaut! > I think that there > was no training to deal with prisoners, > no awareness of Muslim and Arab > cultural norms, and a lack of supervision. I think you need to read the army submissions on the 60 Minutes website. Every Army person posting stated that it is part of training to be made aware of the Geneva conventions and that soldiers are put through a training program where they role play as prisoners. I would accept these assertions at face value. I would tend ot reject the comments made by the offender that he wasn't adequately trained or supervised. That's a smokescreen. > Osama came to hate the Americans > because of, fundamentally, their attitude > to women and sexual matters. He can now > produce another tape saying "See! > Told you so." It is advisable to do some research and not merely accept what gets put out on media outlets like Fox News and CNN. Bin Laden was a CIA intelligence Asset and still is. He was visited at a Dubai hispital some months before 9-11 by a CIA operative. He has a kidney dysfunction that requires periodic attention. Saddam was America's boy and still was when he invaded Kuwait. He had apparently been provoked by Kuwaiti drilling of oil from sands he thought he owned and had allegedly gotten clearance from the US for the invasion. > The allegations about the type of > sexual torture carried out in Guantanamo > Bay seem a lot more credible now. <snip> I don't know about that. I have doubts that it in fact occurred. That is not because I believe the boys running the Guantanamo Bay Camps X-Ray and Delta are any more decent than the thugs and perverts running the detention centres in Iraq, but because the Guantanamo Bay "detainees" are scapegoats, not recent culls. For that reason, I think it likely that they have no valuable current information. If they had, yes, I expect they would have been tortured. They were never in Iraq, most of them and had no hand act or part in killing Americans. OTC, CIA operatives stood by and watched the Northern Alliance murder 300 of their colleagues in just one co |
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