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History Forum / General / General Topics / February 2005Medieval Trade And The Crusades
The Crusades were a disaster from the european perspective, if you consider their ultimate goal being the securing of the holy land in western christian hands. However, Ultimatley, the contact with those outside of europe stimulated trande in a big way. This trade eventually collapsed after the Turks captured constantinople and destoryed the trade routes. This stimulated europeans to go searching for the indies themselves, paving the way for them talking over the world. I am curious about the extent of the "silk road" and european trade before the crusades. Were silks unheard of in europe, or just very rare so that most of the population was ignorant of their existance. Were the goods from the inidies either incredibly rare or non existant in eueope prior to the crusades, or did the crusades simply accellerate something which was occuring anyway? Anyone know anything more about this? > I am curious about the extent of the "silk road" and european trade > before the crusades. Were silks unheard of in europe AFAIK the silk road was open in classical times.  SignatureJohn Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines The Romans were at the receiving end of the Silk Road(s) and therefore had silk. Incidentally, I have sent some dozen posts today and they are not coming up. Are they being received, or have y'all banned me! This is being sent by Google as a check. Surreyman "Surreyman" wrote in message > The Romans were at the receiving end of the Silk Road(s) and therefore > had silk. The Romans had silk from Cos. The difference seems to be how it was processed. The Coian silk seems not to have been unwound before spinning which made it lumpy and heavier. > Incidentally, I have sent some dozen posts today and they are not > coming up. Are they being received, or have y'all banned me! > This is being sent by Google as a check. There you are. :^) -the Troll > "Surreyman" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > processed. The Coian silk seems not to have been unwound before spinning > which made it lumpy and heavier. The Romans had silk from China via the Silk Roads. And it was a sheer as today's silk. Surreyman "a.spencer3" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message > > "Surreyman" wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The Romans had silk from China via the Silk Roads. And it was a sheer as > today's silk. They did, I know. The upper classes were beggaring themselves buying it. Much of it, though, came through India and the Red Sea. -the Troll > "a.spencer3" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > They did, I know. The upper classes were beggaring themselves buying it. > Much of it, though, came through India and the Red Sea. -the Troll Yep. As in other posts, the 'Silk Road' had many routes. Surreyman > "a.spencer3" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > They did, I know. The upper classes were beggaring themselves buying it. > Much of it, though, came through India and the Red Sea. -the Troll Have only just bought Tucker's 'The Silk Road' - had to save up for 2 years! A truly beautiful if expensive book. However, have had a quick delve. Rather obviously, he suggests that Alexander's walkabout and his untidy habit of leaving behind 'Greek' cities etc. started off the routes' bases. Between 300BC and 100AD the Romans' main connecting route was completed - the Appian way from Rome to Brindisi, a short sea connection to Durres (Albania?), then the military road to Constantinople where, of course all linked up. Mostly a land connection, therefore? He does, however, regard the Silk Roads as the roads (as I tend to) rather than including complementary sea trading routes. Surreyman "a.spencer3" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message > > They did, I know. The upper classes were beggaring themselves buying it. > > Much of it, though, came through India and the Red Sea. -the Troll [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > He does, however, regard the Silk Roads as the roads (as I tend to) rather > than including complementary sea trading routes. Yup, me too. I suppose you can carry light things like silk over the road from the Adriatic to Istanbul but I drove it twice and wouldn't want to repeat the experience. The sea was risky in ancient times as proven by the wrecks from the bronze age on that litter the floor of the Med. -the Troll > "a.spencer3" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > They did, I know. The upper classes were beggaring themselves buying it. > Much of it, though, came through India and the Red Sea. -the Troll Talking of the Romans hippo, just recently a mummified burial was discovered at York, the first in Britain I think, the coffin was stone and weighed two tons. Today from the same site presumably, there has been news of a burial of ten, who have been beheaded and their heads placed between their legs, this is apparently to stop them coming back as ghosts. Jamie "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message > Talking of the Romans hippo, just recently a mummified burial was > discovered at York, the first in Britain I think, the coffin was stone > and weighed two tons. > Today from the same site presumably, there has been news of a burial of > ten, who have been beheaded and their heads placed between their legs, > this is apparently to stop them coming back as ghosts. Grrrrr, it must be great living where things like that happen. Here we get a native midden from time to time and a few stone tools. Neither sounds like Roman practice to me, Celtic maybe. Have they any idea of the period? -the Troll > "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Roman practice to me, Celtic maybe. Have they any idea of the period? -the > Troll I can't find anything about it on google yet, it's a new building site in York, but I forgot to add that the executions appear to have been in the time of Septimius Severus the African. The coffin was reported last week but the burials only this morning. Jamie "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message > > > Talking of the Romans hippo, just recently a mummified burial was > > > discovered at York, the first in Britain I think, the coffin was [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > the time of Septimius Severus the African. > The coffin was reported last week but the burials only this morning. Hmmm, Severus died at York in 211. His being 'African' didn't make any difference in culture since the whole place incorporated into the Roman Empire had been well Romanized for several centuries by that time. Both well out-of-culture burial practices are going to drive historians nuts for some time. I can't find where Severus is buried.........two tonnes, huh. Big cheese no doubt. Hmmmmmm....... Thanks. -the Troll "hippo" wrote in message > Hmmm, Severus died at York in 211. His being 'African' didn't make any > difference in culture since the whole place incorporated into the Roman > Empire had been well Romanized for several centuries by that time. Both well > out-of-culture burial practices are going to drive historians nuts for some > time. I can't find where Severus is buried.........two tonnes, huh. Big > cheese no doubt. Hmmmmmm....... Thanks. Nope, I did find that his body was burned and his ashes sent to Rome and interned in the tomb of the Antonines so it has to be another big cheese. -the Troll. > "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > time. I can't find where Severus is buried.........two tonnes, huh. Big > cheese no doubt. Hmmmmmm....... Thanks. -the Troll Mummified with gypsum plaster, which I hadn't heard of before but appears to be not uncommon. Apparently it will only be x-rayed etc, now you mention it I think Severus possibly did die at York but I don't know if the coffin has been dated to the period. Jamie "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > "hippo" wrote in message > > Hmmm, Severus died at York in 211. His being 'African' didn't make any > > difference in culture since the whole place incorporated into the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > you mention it I think Severus possibly did die at York but I don't know > if the coffin has been dated to the period. Gypsum plaster, wow. That could have been a Roman Imperial Period Egyptian practice. The beheadings don't make any sense. Severus did die at York but his ashes were buried in Rome after cremation in Britannia. I wonder if the eleven burials are from the same period? We're going to hear a lot about this over the next decade. I can't wait for the forensic results. -the Troll > The Romans were at the receiving end of the Silk Road(s) and therefore > had silk. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Surreyman This is the only one since early morning anyway. Jamie > > The Romans were at the receiving end of the Silk Road(s) and therefore > > had silk. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > This is the only one since early morning anyway. Yeh - thanks. I seem to be back on line now. What a lot of wisdom y'all lost! Surreyman In soc.history.medieval Surreyman <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote: >The Romans were at the receiving end of the Silk Road(s) and therefore >had silk. >Incidentally, I have sent some dozen posts today and they are not >coming up. Are they being received, or have y'all banned me! >This is being sent by Google as a check. >Surreyman I have not been able to get your posts in months. They just don't show up on my news server. I have no idea why. And it rather upsets me. Of course, I saw this one, but you say it came from Google, a different path. ----- Paul J. Gans > In soc.history.medieval Surreyman <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote: > >The Romans were at the receiving end of the Silk Road(s) and therefore [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Of course, I saw this one, but you say it came from Google, > a different path. My problem was just during yesterday and seems OK now. Odd that - but I'm a technotwit and can't begin to advise. All my several newsgroups come via ntlworld-News, a perfectly standard source as far as I am aware, and no-one else seems to have a problem. Are you using an unusual format? I get all your stuff OK. Maybe someone else here can relay this on to you! Surreyman >>I am curious about the extent of the "silk road" and european trade >>before the crusades. Were silks unheard of in europe > > AFAIK the silk road was open in classical times. AT least as early as the third century BCE, perhaps earlier. > The Crusades were a disaster from the european perspective, if you consider > their ultimate goal being the securing of the holy land in western christian [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Anyone know anything more about this? The Romans were at the receiving end of the Silk Road(s) and therefore had silk. Surreyman >> The Crusades were a disaster from the european perspective, if you > consider [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > The Romans were at the receiving end of the Silk Road(s) and therefore had > silk. So I assume that the answer to my question is that the crusades stimulated an already existing trade. > >> The Crusades were a disaster from the european perspective, if you > > consider [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > So I assume that the answer to my question is that the crusades stimulated > an already existing trade. This is a massive subject. I have travelled various bits of the Silk Roads out of pure general interest (one aim, Bush allowing, is to cover entirely at least one of the major routes). I am just starting out on what will probably now be a few years of more in-depth reading. But the short answer is that the Silk Roads had various routes, several of which bypassed the Crusade areas. Whilst connections were still there, the development of the Silk Roads' produce to the West probably simply mirrored the growth of buying power in the West. Surreyman The silk road had a number of paths that were open or closed periodically due to conflict along the "southern Russian" path. Most of the trade with China went south to India where more wealth was concentrated but some silk (it was light, valuable, easier to move. Bronze and pottery was heavy and came via the Indian Ocean) came to Rome. Cotton and spices came via the India caravan route to southeastern med and from there to Italy. As you say, the Crusades introduced more Europeans to the luxuries of India, Persia & China and helped moved what little silver/gold wealth Europe had east. (Some say that Rome fell because of the imbalance of trade.) K.N. Chaudhuri "Trade & Civilization in the Indian Ocean" may be the most current on trade from that continent. The "Silk" road as a trade route is very old (ca 2-3000 BC?) before silk was developed. There should be some sites available on the web. Hubbard C. Goodrich "Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:... snip > > Hmmm, Severus died at York in 211. His being 'African' didn't make any > > difference in culture since the whole place incorporated into the > Roman > > Empire had been well Romanized for several centuries by that time. > Both well > > out-of-culture burial practices are going to drive historians nuts for > some > > time. I can't find where Severus is buried.........two tonnes, huh. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Mummified with gypsum plaster, which I hadn't heard of before but > appears to be not uncommon. Apparently it will only be x-rayed etc, now > you mention it I think Severus possibly did die at York but I don't know > if the coffin has been dated to the period. > > Jamie Here's the links. Mystery over decapitated Roman skeletons found under York street http://www.thisisyork.co.uk/york/news/YORK_NEWS_ROMANS1.html Archaeologists dig up Roman stone coffin http://www.thisisyork.co.uk/york/news/YORK_NEWS_ROMANS3.html Jamie "Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:... > > "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > grave > > diggers with a sense of humor putting executed criminals or prisoners > in the > > ground with less effort. -the Troll [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jamie There's a group of execution burials at Sutton Hoo, some beheadings, the placement of the heads in the graves doesn't appear to have any pattern. Radio carbon couldn't date them accurately, but they might be as early as AD 640. Jamie |
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