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History Forum / General / General Topics / March 2005



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How Theology & Literature & Movies May Pee-Us & 'Em-Off

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Robert Cohen - 16 Mar 2005 19:41 GMT
Those whom facilely jeer-at & think them damne Jews are so overly or
hyper-sensitive about THE PASSION's slander/libel: Vell, maybe ya could
empathsize of how such feels via THE DeVINCI crap
Robert Cohen - 16 Mar 2005 20:15 GMT
DaVINCI crap

http://nydailynews.com/front/story/290406p-248484c.html
Don H - 17 Mar 2005 20:54 GMT
"The Passion" movie was at least an attempt at historical accuracy.  At that
time Jews were part of the Establishment, and Jesus was part of a rebellious
movement - or seen as such by the authorities.  Of course, this spoils "the
Holocaust image" of Jews as a constantly persecuted minority; but times
change.  Not that this means Jews, as a whole, were guilty of Deicide, nor
the Holocaust never happened.  But one gets a bit tired of Jews being only
able to see the world from their own perspective.
 As for the Da Vinci book, no doubt this is a load of garbage, and although
given a copy by a relative, I've no intention of wading through it.  I
bought a DVD about it, and might glance at that.
 The Vatican would be better off by humorously inviting its flock to read
the book - and have a good laugh.  "Forbidden fruit" is always sweetest, as
Adam and Eve discovered; even if the entire human race was punished
thereafter.
 My only quarrel with The Passion is the extensive flogging Jesus got, as
this somewhat spoils my theory that he recovered in the tomb - the tomb
aspect gets a brief glance right at the end, while his subsequent
reappearance gets no treatment whatsover.  Still, we all enjoyed the
flogging.
=================================
> Those whom facilely jeer-at & think them damne Jews are so overly or
> hyper-sensitive about THE PASSION's slander/libel: Vell, maybe ya could
> empathsize of how such feels via THE DeVINCI crap
Robert Cohen - 18 Mar 2005 00:19 GMT
re: attempt at historical accuracy by THE PASSION

I request that you take a glance at the five page thesis of John
Dominic Crosson's
WHO KILLED JESUS(?), in which he valiantly, courageously, candidly
attempts to corect the historical distortions portrayed about
 the religio-poltico intra-tribal conflict that ballooned,
unintentionally, according to Crosson,
into the persecution of the Jewish people for approx 2,000 years
thereafter

Crosson's other works include THE HISTORICAL JESUS

re: Jews don't give a s about any cause
or anybody except Israel and themselves

if anybody truly believes such s, then .s(he)'s
entitled to such a
perspective,
as i am entitled
to my subjective interpretation of reality, which i so gratuitously &
generously and frequently spout-off in this n.g. ad nauseam

meanwhile, please take a look at the explanatory ideas of
Abe Mslow and of
Rabbi Hillel of Babylonia (prior to Rabbi Joshua/Jesus)

I perceive Israel as trying to satisfy the first or primary need/value
according to
Maslow: survival of its people

Furthermore:
I perceive Israel would do good works for Jews &
non-Jews were it allowed to simply exist by its enemies, and this would
be satisfying/affirming
Abe's highest need/value

Hillel says something to the effect:

Be for yourself AND subsequently
for others or whatever his  common sensical
wisdom is

To the best of my information: Israel is "not recognized" by Moslem
dominated countries
though perhaps by Egypt and by Jordan and by Morrocco
Don H - 18 Mar 2005 22:26 GMT
I've some sympathy for the Jews in search for a homeland of their own, even
if I don't altogether agree that Biblical grant of Palestine area justifies
their claim.  Jehovah might say it is The Promised Land, but objectively it
is merely another colonial settlement, like European settlement of the
Americas, of Australia, etc.  This leaves the "aboriginals" of such
countries with some claim to rights and territory.
 Israel might have UN sanction for its legitimacy, but until "the
Palestinian question" is resolved satisfactorily, with justice for BOTH
sides, then strife will continue.
 Israel might want Hamas, etc, to not only cease fire, but disarm - which
latter would be stupid from the Palestinian viewpoint, as it would allow
Israel to entirely dictate terms, and such terms would be all Israel's way
(naturally enough).
 I regard all religions as a hindrance to human progress, be it Christian,
Moslem, Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist, etc.  While all have some good aspects,
they are outmoded, cosmologically and ethically.  This still leaves modern
ideologies of Capitalism, Communism, etc, which are no great improvement.
 It is dogmatism and moral rectitude which is the evil in all such
attitudes; hence need for rational and humane solutions to world's problems,
plus internationalism (UN), and environmental concern.
 "Passion" and "Da Vinci" are passing fantasies; best viewed or read, and
then forgotten.
==================================
> re: attempt at historical accuracy by THE PASSION
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> dominated countries
> though perhaps by Egypt and by Jordan and by Morrocco
Robert Cohen - 19 Mar 2005 18:17 GMT
To--Don

http://www.mideastweb.org/thejewishstate.htm

I perceive this article/version of zionism's founding would be of
interest, and it's what I generally hold as reality

re: The UN

The UN is admittedly hope for mankind, while one observes the track
records of the UN in Sudan/Darfur currently, the Balkans during the
1990s, the Rwanda massive murders: The U.N. is not winning the Peace
Derby

re: religion & the enlightenment

Here in our real world of real politik, traditional religion is usually
a prime & dynamic factor, though Marxists & Randists prefer their
beliefs in either "scientific socialism" or
"objectivism/libertarianism"

Humanists may be cynically explained as rationalists engaged in ivory
tower rationalisms & fantasies

"THE PASSION" (which I interpret/hold as "dangerous propaganda") in its
earlier versions, media, and presentations during approx 1600 years of
Euriopean history facilitated/motivated/inflames to this very day
discriminations,  persecutions & pogroms against Jews

Overall else, THANKS from me to liberal Post Vatican II theologian John
Dominic Crosson for explaining the PASSION's negative phenomena for all
to consider in his WHO KILLED JESUS? and on his THE HISTORICAL JESUS

THE DaVINCI crap best-seller is a relatively smaller--while very
offensive to many Christians--example of negative "propaganda," and it
manifestly hurts/angers that Italian Cardinal, and that's what causes
me to try an analogy, the subject title of this thread, and I thank you
for the ideas composed in response
Day Brown - 26 Mar 2005 23:37 GMT
> I've some sympathy for the Jews in search for a homeland of their own, even
> if I don't altogether agree that Biblical grant of Palestine area justifies
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> attitudes; hence need for rational and humane solutions to world's problems,
> plus internationalism (UN), and environmental concern.
Then try Stoicsim; it has never been useful to demogogues and tyrants.
Robert Cohen - 28 Mar 2005 01:03 GMT
tip-------------> read Maureen Dowd's typically feisty NYTIMES column
today re these phenomena
FreeThink - 19 Mar 2005 19:23 GMT
> Those whom facilely jeer-at & think them damne Jews are so overly or
> hyper-sensitive about THE PASSION's slander/libel: Vell, maybe ya could
> empathsize of how such feels via THE DeVINCI crap

At least more people are thinking about issue...
Robert Cohen - 21 Mar 2005 21:04 GMT
a follow-up to a baddd analogy, tho none's perfect

www.nytimes.com

copyrighted by the new york times 2005

For 'Code' Author, 24 Months in a Circus
By EDWARD WYATT

Published: March 21, 2005

Two years and 25 million copies later, Dan Brown, the author of "The Da
Vinci Code," has all but gone into hiding.

Gone are the days when he could sit undisturbed in the Grand Gallery of
the Louvre, sketching out the murder scene that opens his blockbuster
novel. He has stopped taking commercial flights because of the
commotion that usually accompanies him, with people lining up in the
aisle to get his autograph on books, cocktail napkins, even the
occasional air-sickness bag.

He has given almost no interviews over the last year, immersing himself
instead in researching and writing the follow-up to "The Da Vinci
Code," which will again feature Robert Langdon, the familiar Harvard
religious scholar, and will be set in Washington and focus on the
secretive world of the Freemasons.

"I have no idea how real celebrities handle their fame," Mr. Brown, 40,
said last week in a rare written response to questions submitted to him
by e-mail message. "I'm just a guy who wrote a book, and it still can
turn into a circus at times when I go out in public."

His retreat from the public eye comes as expectations for his next
novel grow bigger every day, as do sales of "The Da Vinci Code," a
thriller that long ago morphed from a best seller into a cultural
phenomenon.

Since its release on March 18, 2003, "The Da Vinci Code," Mr. Brown's
fourth novel, has sold roughly 25 million copies in 44 languages around
the world, including nearly 10 million hardcover copies in the North
America. That is 10 times the average sales of industry titans like
John Grisham and Nora Roberts, making the book one of the
fastest-selling adult novels of all time. While most books move into
paperback within a year of their original publication in hardcover, Mr.
Brown's publisher, Doubleday, still has not scheduled a paperback
release of "The Da Vinci Code."

Starved fans, meanwhile, have snapped up everything else Mr. Brown has
written: his three earlier novels, which produced barely a ripple when
they were published, have now sold more than seven million copies,
according to Nielsen BookScan. Based on traditional rates of author
royalties, Mr. Brown has probably earned close to $50 million in the
last two years from sales of his four books in the United States alone.

"In some ways, my life has changed dramatically," Mr. Brown said, as
when he arrived at the airport in Boston to catch the shuttle to La
Guardia Airport - only to realize that he had left his driver's license
at his home in New Hampshire. "Fortunately, the guy behind me in line
had a copy of 'Da Vinci Code,' " he said. "I borrowed it, showed
security the author photo and made my flight."

In other ways, Mr. Brown said, life has not changed. "My writing
process, for example, remains unchanged," he said. "I still get up at 4
a.m. every morning and face a blank computer screen. My current
characters really don't care how many books I've sold, and they still
require my same effort and cajoling to persuade them to do what I
want."

Not all of the reviews of Mr. Brown's works have been adoring, of
course. The two most popular books, "Angels & Demons" and "The Da Vinci
Code," have attracted intense criticism from religious commentators and
even the Roman Catholic Church. Last week, an Italian archbishop was
dispatched on the Vatican's behalf to debunk "The Da Vinci Code" and
its theory that Jesus and Mary Magdalene married and had heirs.
Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, who was in charge of doctrinal orthodoxy for
the Vatican before becoming the archbishop of Genoa, called the book "a
sack full of lies" and urged Christians not to buy or read it.

The publicity has only amplified the pressure on Mr. Brown to produce a
spectacular follow-up. While best-selling authors are always important
for a publishing house, they have become the lifeblood of an industry
in which sales of general-interest books have been essentially flat for
two years.

When Mr. Brown's next novel will be published, however, remains an open
question. Doubleday executives say they do not expect to see a
manuscript until sometime next year.

Special Offer: Home Delivery of The Times from $2.90/week.
Continued
1 | 2 | Next>>

For 'Code' Author, 24 Months in a Circus

Published: March 21, 2005

(Page 2 of 2)

There are hints that the pressure to repeat his success might be
wearing on Mr. Brown. Long an author who worked in private, Mr. Brown
now talks with his editor, Jason Kaufman, often once a day, sometimes
twice - far more often, Mr. Kaufman said, than when the pair worked
together on Mr. Brown's three most recent novels, including "Deception
Point" and "Angels & Demons."

Advertisement

"We go over every plot point and twist," Mr. Kaufman said. "I function
as a sounding board for him."

Stephen Rubin, the publisher of Doubleday, part of Random House Inc.,
said he was not at all concerned about when Mr. Brown will finish his
next book.

"Why would I ever put pressure on Dan Brown?" he asked.

But while Doubleday had signed Mr. Brown to a two-book, $400,000
contract before publishing "The Da Vinci Code," the second book under
that contract will now not come so cheaply. Heide Lange, Mr. Brown's
agent, said in an interview that she had renegotiated the contract to
include at least two more books and compensation that is commensurate
with the success of "The Da Vinci Code." Neither she nor Doubleday
would comment on the details, but the price is undoubtedly in the
millions of dollars.

Many publishing industry executives think the risk of a disappointment
is minimal - that the pent-up demand ensures that Mr. Brown's next book
will be huge.

"He has an enormous fan base now that is willing to snap up anything he
writes," said Tom Dwyer, the director of trade books, or
general-interest titles, for Borders Group, the national bookstore
chain. "Just look at the sales of his previous titles."

In addition to the unusually large promotional effort by Doubleday, the
subject matter of "The Da Vinci Code" - Catholic Church intrigue and
mysteries hidden within Leonardo's most famous works of art - helped
advance its sales, making the book both compelling and easily
accessible to readers, said Antoinette Ercolano, a vice president in
charge of buying general-interest books for the Barnes & Noble chain.

The book made its debut at No. 1 on the New York Times best-seller list
on April 6, 2003, and has remained on the list for 103 weeks, 51 of
them ranked No. 1 and never dipping below No. 5. With that success has
come some of the trappings of fame, which make it a challenge for Mr.
Brown to maintain his privacy even when he tries. Not long after "The
Da Vinci Code" was published, he got a call from Steven Tyler, the lead
singer of Aerosmith, who read "The Da Vinci Code" and liked it. Mr.
Brown and his wife, Blythe, have long been Aerosmith fans, and Mr.
Tyler offered tickets to a concert.

The performance, it turns out, was filmed as part of the John Travolta
movie "Be Cool." In the film's concert scene, there in the front row,
shouting adoringly and clapping along, is Dan Brown, getting more
screen time than most of the band and even some of the film's actors.

Home Delivery of The Times from $2.90/week - Act Now!
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