CONTINUITY OF CIVILIZATION, COMPARING BHARAT AND CHINA
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Dr. Jai Maharaj - 22 Feb 2007 09:47 GMT Continuity of civilization, comparing Bharat and China
Forwarded message from S. Kalyanaraman
[ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007
Continuity of civilization, comparing China and India Fwd. S. Kalyanaraman
February 21, 2007
Query about continuity of civilization, comparing China and India
-From: George Zhao
Dear Colleagues,
I am writing to ask for your help. I am currently involved in an academic debate with a scholar of Indian studies about the continuity of Indian civilization. When I presented at a conference that "the Chinese civilization is the oldest continuous civilization in the world" I was challenged with a question "why India doesn¡¦t qualified as equally old? Sanskrit texts date back to 1500 BCE or so and those very texts are still a vital part of contemporary Hinduism. Sanskrit is currently still one of India's 18 official languages."
I must admit that I am not familiar with Indian history. What I have learned is a common belief among scholars of China studies, both in China and in the West. So if I am wrong, they are all wrong.
My questions are: how to define the continuity of civilization? What makes a civilization to be continuous and discontinuous?
I do notice that there are hot debates about whether or not Indian civilization is the oldest continuous civilization in the world. I have learned that Hinduism is widely regarded by historians as being the oldest religion in the world, but is the oldest civilization the same thing as oldest religion?
It seems that it depends very much on how we define a civilization. In my opinion, "Civilization" must begin with the written language and the continuity of a civilization must also be the continuity of the written and spoken language. But is Sanskrit still being used by common Indian people today? As far as I know, Sanskrit is still a language of higher education in India today, but it is not commonly spoken, much like classical Latin and Greek in European societies. It is true that Sanskrit is one of the 18 official languages of India, but only less than 50,000 people spoke it as of India's 1991 census while there are over one billion people in India. 50,000 simply cannot continue a civilization. I understand that the mostly spoken language in India is English which is the co- official language.
In my opinion, language is only one of the criteria for defining the continuity of civilization, cultural tradition, especially philosophy, social norms, customs etc. must also be put into consideration.
I should be grateful if any scholars on this list could help me out. Thank you!
George Zhao, Ph.D. University of Toronto georgeDOTzhaoATutorontoDOTca
End of forwarded message from S. Kalyanaraman
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thesidharth - 22 Feb 2007 10:13 GMT On Feb 22, 2:47 pm, use...@mantra.com0E09F or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
> Continuity of civilization, comparing Bharat and China > [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the > copyright owner. OP-ED
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• Write the author • Devinder Sharma • Poverty • Send to a friend • Printer friendly version
FDI IN RETAIL Big box retail will boost poverty The Prime Minister, citing no credible evidence, says small shopkeepers will not be hurt by the entry of large foreign retailiers into the country. His party president, on the other hand, is asking him to go slow on this front. Will this lead to a different course in the government's thinking, or is this simply a smoke-screen, asks Devinder Sharma.
16 February 2007 - It is being projected as a false alarm. Congress president Sonia Gandhi's latest letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh asking him not to hurry with the opening up of the retail sector to foreign direct investment (FDI) has not ruffled any feathers. Letter or no letter, the blitzkrieg of supermarkets and malls shows no sign of subsiding. Allaying any fears of a slowdown after Sonia Gandhi's leaked letter to the media, Commerce Minister Kamal Nath put it straight: "The Prime Minister's Office had asked for details on the FDI policy on retail and we have sent our comments, so what is the fuss about?"
Surely, he knows what the fuss is all about. At stake is the livelihood security of 12 million small shopkeepers, 40 million hawkers and at least 200 million (of the 600 million) small farmers, a small sacrifice to be made for ensuring success of the organised retail boom. Mrs Gandhi's letter is apparently an expression of concern for the aam aadmi: "I have received suggestions from many quarters about the desirability to first study the possible impact of transnational supermarkets on livelihood security of those engaged in small-scale operations ... I thought I would convey this to you so that you may consider having the relevant issues properly examined before further decisions are taken." What she says makes economic sense, but for the PM, it is commerce that now takes precedence over economics.
We voters had always thought Manmohan Singh, being a professional economist, would back his positions with sound economic analysis and proof. But there is surely only disappointment on that front. "The entry of foreign enterprises into the retail trade will not hurt our small shopkeepers but will create lot more employment," he has said time and again, but the international evidence is to the contrary. Organised retail occupies 92 per cent of the retail business in the United States, and 70 per cent in Britain. And this has come at a heavy social, economic and environmental cost, and big retailers have added to poverty.
We voters had always thought Manmohan Singh, being a professional economist, would back his positions with sound economic analysis and proof. But there is surely only disappointment on that front.
Meanwhile, all kinds of figures are being tossed out by the retail industry and its marketing consultants to justify the entry of organised retail. One estimate points to a potential growth of US $21.5 billion in organised retail by 2010; another pegs it at $30 billion. The Marketing and Retail Conclave organised by Technopak Advisors has taken this further, showing modern retail jumping from the existing US $12 billion to US $75 billion by 2011, and as much as US $175 billion by 2016. If wishes were horses, the marketing consultancy firms could certainly take millions of people for a ride.
Mrs Gandhi is evidently not impressed with these statistics, and rightly so, for they hide more than they reveal. She is asking for a detailed study before the government lays out a red carpet for 'big box' retail chains. Lessons need to be drawn from a recent study done by Stephen J Goetz and Hema Swaminathan of the Department of Agricultural Economics and Rural Sociology, at Pennsylvania State University in the United States. The authors measured the impact of Wal-Mart's massive retail boom on poverty in various American states.
Entitled Wal-Mart and Poverty, the comprehensive 2004 study clearly brings out that those American states that had more Wal-Mart stores in 1987, had higher poverty rates by 1999 than the states where fewer stores were set up. "Equally important, the counties (districts) which built new Wal-Mart stores between 1987-1998 also had high poverty rates," the report concludes. Interestingly, increased poverty growth from Wal-Mart operations comes at a time when poverty rates nationally were otherwise in decline.
Lest this be dismissed as mere coincidence, the study cites three major reasons for the growth in poverty in relation to the growth in Wal-Mart retail. First, poverty rates increased because workers displaced from small shops (known as 'mom and pop stores' in America) had no alternative. They were forced to work in Wal-Mart stores at relatively lower wages. Second, big box retail destroyed local entrepreneurship, thereby destroying the ability of local talent in many areas to earn an independent livelihood. And finally, say the researchers, Wal-Mart actually transfers income from taxpayers and welfare programmes to its stockholders and consumers. In other words, the retail giant is not bearing the full social and economic cost of its nation-wide operations.
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All these three factors are much more relevant in the Indian context. In India, no scientific and economic analysis has been done to ascertain the ecological, economic and social costs the nation will have to pay, especially the loss in livelihoods of small retailers, hawkers and the farmers. Still worse, not even one empirical study from an independent institute examines the impact of organised retail on already poverty-stricken India.
If unfettered FDI in multi-brand retail further compounded the appalling poverty that already exists, the negative impact on small retailers and farmers would be acutely more damaging than what is being projected. If Mrs Gandhi means business, and expects her concerns to be taken seriously, she must ensure that livelihoods of millions - especially those in agriculture which is rapidly becoming restructured for organised retail - cannot be sacrificed for the sake of a few. At the same time there is an urgent need to bring in adequate legal provisions (as in Japan) to ensure that extensive public hearings and economic, traffic, environmental and other impact assessments are done before the government permits organised retail to set in.
Moreover, the UPA government should be directed not to follow the autonomous route to facilitate the expansion of the services sector; this would only provide an unwarranted escape clause for political leaders. It is well-known that under the General Agreement on Trade in Services (GATS) of the World Trade Organisation, retail giants are pushing for provisions that would be politically untenable in India, but may be passed of as 'necessary' under international agreements. In a 2002 letter, for example, Wal-Mart had asked US trade negotiators to pressure countries to remove "any size limitations on individual stores" and "geographic limitations on store locations."
With the government appearing to bend over backwards to accommodate FDI in retail, Mrs Gandhi's letter steers a different course. The question is, is this a smoke-screen? ⊕
Devinder Sharma 16 Feb 2007
Devinder Sharma is a food and trade policy analyst. He also chairs the New Delhi-based Forum for Biotechnology & Food Security. Among his recent works include two books GATT to WTO: Seeds of Despair and In the Famine Trap.
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Comments (1)
Posted by Devi, Thank you Devinderji, for drawing attention to this issue which is kind of slipping by. The situation now seems to be that the aam admi is attacked on so many fronts that he doesnt know what to retailiate to(I am sure thats a strategy in itself of the powers that be)!
The figures of Wal-mart in US are mirrored by Tesco figures in Britain and Monbiot discusses the impact of box-retailers on his website in detail. They have devastated towns, cities and rural areas and small local groups in US are fighting to regain some kind of foot hold in re- creating a local economy. These stores are the epitome of a monoscape with no room for local flavor or local enterprise. We in India trying to destroy that very thing which the West is struggling to recreate These shops are nothing better than modern day sweat shops who pass on their burden to the state and citizen.
It truly truly appalls me that we refuse to look at the downsides of all these developments and learn something from them, instead insist on repeating the mistakes of the first world, which for a poor over- populated nation like India will prove to be very very expensive. We are already seeing it in farmer suicides and unprecedented levels of migration from rural to urban areas.
Our wonderful urban middle class consumers who think that these retailers are going to be the mecca of shopping will soon realise something else: the picture is not pretty at all, even for the darling urban middle class consumer. Today in mid-west US you would have to get into a car and drive a couple of miles at least, if you (god forbid) run out of milk on an evening there are no small shops, nothing accessible at walking distance. Once you are in after parking 300 metres away, you have to go through the rigamoarole of picking a basket and walking to the farthest corner of the store which is where essentials are stacked (based on brilliant marketing strategy of making every customer walk the length of the store) and then join the interminable queue manned by a person earning poverty wages, who is least interested in dealing with you, (of course you can circumvent that thru the store 's brilliant strategy of 'do it yourself' and check yourself out, this is how stores outsource their work to the customers and keep their operations tight) and then back, get into the car, park the car, get back home and by then the tea that you wanted (a good one hour back) in the first place will also have to be accompanied by an aspirin (god forbid u need to get that one from a drug store). These box stores are a consumer's worst nightmare and have led to interesting statistics where Americans spend more time shopping than with their children.
...and I am Sid Harth
harmony - 22 Feb 2007 21:49 GMT hinduism is a very old civilization from time immemorial. however, hinduism is dharma, not religion. chinese civilization is old too, but its dharma was derailed by communism. so there is a short break in the continutity. however, it is only a matter of time before buddhism returns when communism must give way to a new order. just be sure you guys in beautiful china keep kirastanism and mummudism away. rest will fall in place. and help india do the same. lucky future.
> Continuity of civilization, comparing Bharat and China > [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the > copyright owner. Hejtman - Slobo - Varman - 23 Feb 2007 02:21 GMT Indian civilization was interrupterd by the Msulem scriptures and muslem power ,
> hinduism is a very old civilization from time immemorial. however, hinduism > is dharma, not religion. [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] > > - Show quoted text - mike3 - 23 Feb 2007 07:04 GMT > hinduism is a very old civilization from time immemorial. however, hinduism > is dharma, not religion. Hinduism is a religion, not a civilization.
ltlee1@hotmail.com - 23 Feb 2007 11:39 GMT > > hinduism is a very old civilization from time immemorial. however, hinduism > > is dharma, not religion. > > Hinduism is a religion, not a civilization. Good point. A religion can be the basis of a civilization. But a distinct religion along is not sufficient.
Hejtman - Slobo - Varman - 23 Feb 2007 01:45 GMT the Hindu civilization was interrupted by the Muslems coming in from Persia and from Afghanistan ,
that is why India is not the longest continuous civilization in the world.
Muslems used different scriptures in India, whereas the Mongols in China still continued to use Chinese scriptures inside China during the Mongol Empire, this same was true with the Manchu Empire inside CHINA >
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On Feb 22, 4:47 pm, use...@mantra.com0E09F or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr. Jai Maharaj) wrote:
> Continuity of civilization, comparing Bharat and China > [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the > copyright owner.
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