Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
General TopicsAncient HistoryMedieval PeriodBritish HistoryWhat IfArchaeology
War History
War HistoryWorld War IIUS Civil War
HistoryKB.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

History Forum / General / General Topics / February 2007



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

CONTINUITY OF CIVILIZATION, COMPARING BHARAT AND CHINA

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Dr. Jai Maharaj - 22 Feb 2007 09:47 GMT
Continuity of civilization, comparing Bharat and China

Forwarded message from S. Kalyanaraman

[ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007

Continuity of civilization, comparing China and India
 
Fwd. S. Kalyanaraman

February 21, 2007

Query about continuity of civilization, comparing China and India

-From: George Zhao

Dear Colleagues,

I am writing to ask for your help. I am currently involved
in an academic debate with a scholar of Indian studies
about the continuity of Indian civilization. When I
presented at a conference that "the Chinese civilization is
the oldest continuous civilization in the world" I was
challenged with a question "why India doesn¡¦t qualified as
equally old? Sanskrit texts date back to 1500 BCE or so and
those very texts are still a vital part of contemporary
Hinduism. Sanskrit is currently still one of India's 18
official languages."

I must admit that I am not familiar with Indian history.
What I have learned is a common belief among scholars of
China studies, both in China and in the West. So if I am
wrong, they are all wrong.

My questions are: how to define the continuity of
civilization? What makes a civilization to be continuous
and discontinuous?

I do notice that there are hot debates about whether or not
Indian civilization is the oldest continuous civilization
in the world. I have learned that Hinduism is widely
regarded by historians as being the oldest religion in the
world, but is the oldest civilization the same thing as
oldest religion?

It seems that it depends very much on how we define a
civilization. In my opinion, "Civilization" must begin with
the written language and the continuity of a civilization
must also be the continuity of the written and spoken
language. But is Sanskrit still being used by common Indian
people today? As far as I know, Sanskrit is still a
language of higher education in India today, but it is not
commonly spoken, much like classical Latin and Greek in
European societies. It is true that Sanskrit is one of the
18 official languages of India, but only less than 50,000
people spoke it as of India's 1991 census while there are
over one billion people in India. 50,000 simply cannot
continue a civilization. I understand that the mostly
spoken language in India is English which is the co-
official language.

In my opinion, language is only one of the criteria for
defining the continuity of civilization, cultural
tradition, especially philosophy, social norms, customs
etc. must also be put into consideration.

I should be grateful if any scholars on this list could
help me out. Thank you!

George Zhao, Ph.D.
University of Toronto
georgeDOTzhaoATutorontoDOTca

End of forwarded message from S. Kalyanaraman

Jai Maharaj
http://tinyurl.com/yhjyp5
http://www.mantra.com/jai
http://www.mantra.com/jyotish
Om Shanti

Hindu Holocaust Museum
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust

Hindu life, principles, spirituality and philosophy
http://www.hindu.org
http://www.hindunet.org

The truth about Islam and Muslims
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate

    o  Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for the educational
purposes of research and open discussion. The contents of this post may not
have been authored by, and do not necessarily represent the opinion of the
poster. The contents are protected by copyright law and the exemption for
fair use of copyrighted works.
    o  If you send private e-mail to me, it will likely not be read,
considered or answered if it does not contain your full legal name, current
e-mail and postal addresses, and live-voice telephone number.
    o  Posted for information and discussion. Views expressed by others are
not necessarily those of the poster who may or may not have read the article.

FAIR USE NOTICE: This article may contain copyrighted material the use of
which may or may not have been specifically authorized by the copyright
owner. This material is being made available in efforts to advance the
understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic,
democratic, scientific, social, and cultural, etc., issues. It is believed
that this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as
provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title
17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without
profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included
information for research, comment, discussion and educational purposes by
subscribing to USENET newsgroups or visiting web sites. For more information
go to:  http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml
If you wish to use copyrighted material from this article for purposes of
your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
copyright owner.
thesidharth - 22 Feb 2007 10:13 GMT
On Feb 22, 2:47 pm, use...@mantra.com0E09F or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr.
Jai Maharaj) wrote:
> Continuity of civilization, comparing Bharat and China
>
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
> your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
> copyright owner.

OP-ED

 · Opinions
 · Editorials
 · Guests
 · Interviews
 · Talks

RSS Feeds

SERVICES

 · Advertise
 · Contact Us
 · Newsletter
 · Submit

   •  Write the author
•  Devinder Sharma
•  Poverty
•  Send to a friend
•  Printer friendly version

FDI IN RETAIL
Big box retail will boost poverty
The Prime Minister, citing no credible evidence, says small
shopkeepers will not be hurt by the entry of large foreign retailiers
into the country. His party president, on the other hand, is asking
him to go slow on this front. Will this lead to a different course in
the government's thinking, or is this simply a smoke-screen, asks
Devinder Sharma.

16 February 2007 - It is being projected as a false alarm. Congress
president Sonia Gandhi's latest letter to Prime Minister Manmohan
Singh asking him not to hurry with the opening up of the retail sector
to foreign direct investment (FDI) has not ruffled any feathers.
Letter or no letter, the blitzkrieg of supermarkets and malls shows no
sign of subsiding. Allaying any fears of a slowdown after Sonia
Gandhi's leaked letter to the media, Commerce Minister Kamal Nath put
it straight: "The Prime Minister's Office had asked for details on the
FDI policy on retail and we have sent our comments, so what is the
fuss about?"

Surely, he knows what the fuss is all about. At stake is the
livelihood security of 12 million small shopkeepers, 40 million
hawkers and at least 200 million (of the 600 million) small farmers, a
small sacrifice to be made for ensuring success of the organised
retail boom. Mrs Gandhi's letter is apparently an expression of
concern for the aam aadmi: "I have received suggestions from many
quarters about the desirability to first study the possible impact of
transnational supermarkets on livelihood security of those engaged in
small-scale operations ... I thought I would convey this to you so
that you may consider having the relevant issues properly examined
before further decisions are taken." What she says makes economic
sense, but for the PM, it is commerce that now takes precedence over
economics.

We voters had always thought Manmohan Singh, being a professional
economist, would back his positions with sound economic analysis and
proof. But there is surely only disappointment on that front. "The
entry of foreign enterprises into the retail trade will not hurt our
small shopkeepers but will create lot more employment," he has said
time and again, but the international evidence is to the contrary.
Organised retail occupies 92 per cent of the retail business in the
United States, and 70 per cent in Britain. And this has come at a
heavy social, economic and environmental cost, and big retailers have
added to poverty.

We voters had always thought Manmohan Singh, being a professional
economist, would back his positions with sound economic analysis and
proof. But there is surely only disappointment on that front.

Meanwhile, all kinds of figures are being tossed out by the retail
industry and its marketing consultants to justify the entry of
organised retail. One estimate points to a potential growth of US
$21.5 billion in organised retail by 2010; another pegs it at $30
billion. The Marketing and Retail Conclave organised by Technopak
Advisors has taken this further, showing modern retail jumping from
the existing US $12 billion to US $75 billion by 2011, and as much as
US $175 billion by 2016. If wishes were horses, the marketing
consultancy firms could certainly take millions of people for a ride.

Mrs Gandhi is evidently not impressed with these statistics, and
rightly so, for they hide more than they reveal. She is asking for a
detailed study before the government lays out a red carpet for 'big
box' retail chains. Lessons need to be drawn from a recent study done
by Stephen J Goetz and Hema Swaminathan of the Department of
Agricultural Economics and Rural Sociology, at Pennsylvania State
University in the United States. The authors measured the impact of
Wal-Mart's massive retail boom on poverty in various American states.

Entitled Wal-Mart and Poverty, the comprehensive 2004 study clearly
brings out that those American states that had more Wal-Mart stores in
1987, had higher poverty rates by 1999 than the states where fewer
stores were set up. "Equally important, the counties (districts) which
built new Wal-Mart stores between 1987-1998 also had high poverty
rates," the report concludes. Interestingly, increased poverty growth
from Wal-Mart operations comes at a time when poverty rates nationally
were otherwise in decline.

Lest this be dismissed as mere coincidence, the study cites three
major reasons for the growth in poverty in relation to the growth in
Wal-Mart retail. First, poverty rates increased because workers
displaced from small shops (known as 'mom and pop stores' in America)
had no alternative. They were forced to work in Wal-Mart stores at
relatively lower wages. Second, big box retail destroyed local
entrepreneurship, thereby destroying the ability of local talent in
many areas to earn an independent livelihood. And finally, say the
researchers, Wal-Mart actually transfers income from taxpayers and
welfare programmes to its stockholders and consumers. In other words,
the retail giant is not bearing the full social and economic cost of
its nation-wide operations.

continue reading article ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Have you made your contribution?
Dear Reader, if you have been a regular at India Together, then you
already know that informative reporting on India Together is kept
viable by a partnership between you and us. If you haven't yet made an
annual contribution, now is the time to change that. Support us at one
of the following levels:

- Rs.1000 (recommended)
- Rs.5000 (Friends of India Together)
- Rs.365 (basic, a rupee a day)

Contribute now | Why your support matters
p.s.: Your support is voluntary. Nevertheless, we rely on it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All these three factors are much more relevant in the Indian context.
In India, no scientific and economic analysis has been done to
ascertain the ecological, economic and social costs the nation will
have to pay, especially the loss in livelihoods of small retailers,
hawkers and the farmers. Still worse, not even one empirical study
from an independent institute examines the impact of organised retail
on already poverty-stricken India.

If unfettered FDI in multi-brand retail further compounded the
appalling poverty that already exists, the negative impact on small
retailers and farmers would be acutely more damaging than what is
being projected. If Mrs Gandhi means business, and expects her
concerns to be taken seriously, she must ensure that livelihoods of
millions - especially those in agriculture which is rapidly becoming
restructured for organised retail - cannot be sacrificed for the sake
of a few. At the same time there is an urgent need to bring in
adequate legal provisions (as in Japan) to ensure that extensive
public hearings and economic, traffic, environmental and other impact
assessments are done before the government permits organised retail to
set in.

Moreover, the UPA government should be directed not to follow the
autonomous route to facilitate the expansion of the services sector;
this would only provide an unwarranted escape clause for political
leaders. It is well-known that under the General Agreement on Trade in
Services (GATS) of the World Trade Organisation, retail giants are
pushing for provisions that would be politically untenable in India,
but may be passed of as 'necessary' under international agreements. In
a 2002 letter, for example, Wal-Mart had asked US trade negotiators to
pressure countries to remove "any size limitations on individual
stores" and "geographic limitations on store locations."

With the government appearing to bend over backwards to accommodate
FDI in retail, Mrs Gandhi's letter steers a different course. The
question is, is this a smoke-screen? ⊕

Devinder Sharma
16 Feb 2007

Devinder Sharma is a food and trade policy analyst. He also chairs the
New Delhi-based Forum for Biotechnology & Food Security. Among his
recent works include two books GATT to WTO: Seeds of Despair and In
the Famine Trap.

  •  Write the author
•  Post a comment on this article
•  Poverty
•  Devinder Sharma
•  Reprint permissions

Comments (1)

Posted by Devi,
Thank you Devinderji, for drawing attention to this issue which is
kind of slipping by. The situation now seems to be that the aam admi
is attacked on so many fronts that he doesnt know what to retailiate
to(I am sure thats a strategy in itself of the powers that be)!

The figures of Wal-mart in US are mirrored by Tesco figures in Britain
and Monbiot discusses the impact of box-retailers on his website in
detail. They have devastated towns, cities and rural areas and small
local groups in US are fighting to regain some kind of foot hold in re-
creating a local economy. These stores are the epitome of a monoscape
with no room for local flavor or local enterprise. We in India trying
to destroy that very thing which the West is struggling to recreate
These shops are nothing better than modern day sweat shops who pass on
their burden to the state and citizen.

It truly truly appalls me that we refuse to look at the downsides of
all these developments and learn something from them, instead insist
on repeating the mistakes of the first world, which for a poor over-
populated nation like India will prove to be very very expensive. We
are already seeing it in farmer suicides and unprecedented levels of
migration from rural to urban areas.

Our wonderful urban middle class consumers who think that these
retailers are going to be the mecca of shopping will soon realise
something else: the picture is not pretty at all, even for the darling
urban middle class consumer.
Today in mid-west US you would have to get into a car and drive a
couple of miles at least, if you (god forbid) run out of milk on an
evening there are no small shops, nothing accessible at walking
distance. Once you are in after parking 300 metres away, you have to
go through the rigamoarole of picking a basket and walking to the
farthest corner of the store which is where essentials are stacked
(based on brilliant marketing strategy of making every customer walk
the length of the store) and then join the interminable queue manned
by a person earning poverty wages, who is least interested in dealing
with you, (of course you can circumvent that thru the store 's
brilliant strategy of 'do it yourself' and check yourself out, this is
how stores outsource their work to the customers and keep their
operations tight) and then back, get into the car, park the car, get
back home and by then the tea that you wanted (a good one hour back)
in the first place will also have to be accompanied by an aspirin (god
forbid u need to get that one from a drug store). These box stores are
a consumer's worst nightmare and have led to interesting statistics
where Americans spend more time shopping than with their children.

...and I am Sid Harth
harmony - 22 Feb 2007 21:49 GMT
hinduism is a very old civilization from time immemorial. however, hinduism
is dharma, not religion.
chinese civilization is old too, but its dharma was derailed by communism.
so there is a short break in the continutity. however, it is only a matter
of time before buddhism returns when communism must give way to a new order.
just be sure you guys in beautiful china keep kirastanism and mummudism
away. rest will fall in place. and help india do the same. lucky future.

> Continuity of civilization, comparing Bharat and China
>
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
> your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
> copyright owner.
Hejtman - Slobo - Varman - 23 Feb 2007 02:21 GMT
Indian  civilization  was  interrupterd  by the Msulem  scriptures
and  muslem power ,

> hinduism is a very old civilization from time immemorial. however, hinduism
> is dharma, not religion.
[quoted text clipped - 131 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
mike3 - 23 Feb 2007 07:04 GMT
> hinduism is a very old civilization from time immemorial. however, hinduism
> is dharma, not religion.

Hinduism is a religion, not a civilization.
ltlee1@hotmail.com - 23 Feb 2007 11:39 GMT
> > hinduism is a very old civilization from time immemorial. however, hinduism
> > is dharma, not religion.
>
> Hinduism is a religion, not a civilization.

Good point.
A religion can be the basis of a civilization.
But a distinct religion along is not sufficient.
Hejtman - Slobo - Varman - 23 Feb 2007 01:45 GMT
the  Hindu  civilization was  interrupted  by the  Muslems  coming in
from Persia and  from Afghanistan ,

that is  why  India is not the longest  continuous  civilization in
the  world.

Muslems  used  different  scriptures in India,
whereas  the  Mongols  in China  still  continued to use  Chinese
scriptures  inside  China  during the  Mongol  Empire,
this same was  true  with the  Manchu Empire inside  CHINA >

.

.

On Feb 22, 4:47 pm, use...@mantra.com0E09F or www.mantra.com/jai (Dr.
Jai Maharaj) wrote:
> Continuity of civilization, comparing Bharat and China
>
[quoted text clipped - 106 lines]
> your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the
> copyright owner.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.