History Forum / General / General Topics / May 2007

You are the only one making that claim.  It is a strawman you invented.

No mention of a distress call, and recapturing formerly Christian
territories was only part of the goal (mostly applicable to Spain,
since the Holy Land had never been "Christian lands")
<Their objectives were to check the spread of Islam, to retake control
< of the Holy Land, to conquer pagan areas, and to recapture formerly
< Christian territories;

The Byzantine Empire did not have a "middle eastern king", which was
your original *FALSE* claim.  The call for help was for the defense of
the remnant of Byzantine holdings in Turkey, most of which the
Byzantine empire had lost in battle.  The Crusades did not in fact
help the Byzantines retake Turkey (you might have noticed that Turkey
is not a Christian country if you were even slightly aware of the
world), but merely fought the Turks to a bloody standstill (and they
did not give the land taken to the Byzantines, but instead set up the
independent principalities of Cilicia and Antioch), losing most of
their forces, and then went to Jerusalem which had not been part of
the Byzantine call.  So in fact the Crusades never in fact provided
the help that was requested, and later Crusades in fact sacked the
Byzantine empire and nearly destroyed Constantinople.  This in turn
meant that Constantinople eventually did fall to the Turks, and most
of southeastern Europe was ruled for centuries, eventually leading to
World War I, and the more recent Bosnian and Kosovo crises.

"to conquer pagan areas" from the first article, among others.
Furthermore they were initiated to spread *Papal* Christianity,
against the schismatic Orthodox church.  Finally, after the Moslems
had taken those territories, the bulk of the people there became
Moslems, and thus retaking them WAS "spreading Christianity".

lojbab

The "crusades" were defensive.

Kyriaka

No.  But the Moslem extremists are perfectly willing to use Bush's
words against him (and us, and our soldiers) if that is what it takes
for them to get us out of their country.

America, a secular nation, should NOT be doing so.

Islam *is* a religion.  "American" is not.

For them it is.  And they are using the fact that Bush used a term
associated with religious wars in order to try to win it.

The crusades were in fact religious wars.  There may have been some
considerable degree of political calculation behind making them
religious wars, but they are called "crusades" *because* the Pope who
then had both spiritual and temporal authority, declared them to be
religious wars.

lojbab

What proof do you have that's true? I don't think it is. Yes, of course
there are al-Qaeda types who cast a religious gloss over what is
essentially an imperialist war, in order to try to motivate their
countrymen, who are largely Muslim. There are also plenty of
Islamophobes in the US and allied lands. They may not be fighting for
Christianity per se, but they often are fighting against Islam, and
virtually all the fighting is taking place in Muslim countries.

You ignore all the talk of "clash of civilizations" and the rant to
"kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." There's plenty of
people in the Empire justifying this on the basis of religion.

Look at what's going on in Somalia. The Union of Islamic Courts brought
order and peace to Mogadishu for the first time in 15 years. The people
supported it. We couldn't stand that, so we had Ethiopia invade and now
the bloodbath is worse than ever. Our excuse was there were supposedly
13 al-Qaeda types in Somalia. Well, we're harboring Posada Carilles.
Does that give Venezuela or Cuba the right to invade the US? No. The
real reason we had Ethiopia invade is because elements in the US
government and military are Islamophobes and couldn't tolerate an
Islamic government in Somalia. Don't believe it? Tough tuna; I don't
believe your statement that they're more religiously motivated than the
Empire, either.

Prove it!

Did Left Behind deny that the crusades happened?

Few, if any.  Jerusalem had been under the control of Moslems for
centuries before the Crusades.  Before that, it had been under
intermittent control of the Byzantines and the Persians - the
Byzantines pushed the expansion of Christianity there, but could not
hold the city with stability because they persecuted the Jews, and the
Jews kept revolting (and the Jews sided with the Persians when they
invaded).

http://www.noblesanctuary.com/Quds.html
<In 638, just a few years after the death of the Prophet, peace and
< blessings be upon him, an army of his followers surrounded Jerusalem.
< The city Patriarch, Sophronius, handed over the city after a brief
< siege. There was only one condition; that the terms of their
< surrender be negotiated directly with 'Umar ibn al-Khattab, the
< second Khalif of Islam.
<'Umar entered Jerusalem on foot. There was no bloodshed. There were no
< massacres. Those who wanted to leave were allowed to, with all their
< possessions. Those who wanted to stay were guaranteed protection for
< their lives, their property, and their places of worship in the
< 'Umariyya Covenant.
<For the first time in its long history, Jerusalem had been spared a
< bloodbath.
<It is said that 'Umar accompanied Sophronious to the Church of the
< Holy Sepulchre and that he was offered a place to pray in it. 'Umar
< declined, fearing it might establish a precedent which would threaten
< the church's continued use as a Christian house of worship. He prayed
< instead to the south of the church, now the site of the Mosque of
< 'Umar in Jerusalem.

lojbab

The Arab Empire spread rapidly in the 7th and 8th Centuries, largely
because they treated conquered lands humanely and with tolerance. They
did not force conversion to Islam (the Koran says "There should be no
coercion in religion.") There were few revolts because Coptic Christians
and Jews were treated better by the Muslims than they were by the
Byzantines, who persecuted them as heretics.

You do know that "al-Lah" is merely Arabic for "the God", don't you?
Arab-speaking Christians and Jews both refer to God as Allah.