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Merry Christmas: Is rejection Christianity a step forward?

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Carl Sagan's billions - 25 Dec 2007 04:20 GMT
I struggled for a long time, in my younger years, trying to
understand the basic doctrines, the core beliefs, the philosophies,
the essence and contradictions in Old versus New Testament, the
behavior of warrior Christian nations wreaking havoc in non-Christian
colonies (and still conducting horrible wars on non-Christian people
in Asia), Genesis, Noah, the many other stories in the Bible, etc..

Then slowly I came to understand several truths described below,
which eventually enabled me to gradually throw off the yoke,
the shackles and the blinders of a long childhood indoctrination in
Christianity, and  I  WAS  FREE ----- FOREVER:

1. All religions and gods are 'man' made, made and made up
by humans, not necessarily to deceive but as a result of new
ideas and concepts that evolved and were then accepted as
the (new) truth, the (new) philosophy of life, the (new) gospel,
the (new) 'true' religion.

2. The Christian concept and definition of a 'soul' is untenable.
Why? Evolution is a fact but nowhere in the long line of evolution
was the 'soul' (or something like the soul that makes us immortal)
suddenly inserted in a certain species at a discrete point in time.

If I assume that the soul was suddenly inserted in a living
being, e.g., 1 million years ago, we must then argue that his
or her father and mother did not have a soul. We cannot.

This means:
All living beings have a soul or no living beings have a soul.  As I
don't believe a worm has a soul, I must conclude that the concept
of a soul in each human being can only be a manmade construct.
A manmade construct because we have a need to believe that
we (or at least our 'spirit' or our 'soul') are immortal and will
exist forever.

We fear death, we fear being gone forever.
We want to deny death, we need to believe we are immortal.
And we can't avoid to fabricate a reason for our existence.

3. There is no heaven and hell. All religions are manmade, and
the concepts of heaven and hell are manmade. They were created
when social groups evolved culturally:  To keep individual behavior
in line and within boundaries - to be beneficial to the group or to
its leaders. Heaven was a carrot, hell was the stick.

4. The Christian dogma of sin, with human beings having free choice
to obey or disobey, is untenable, as 'sin', killing, fighting, etc.,
already existed millions of years before human beings came about.

That means in the long line of evolution there was never a discrete
point where the 'first' human being suddenly had free choice to obey
or disobey.  That also means the dogma of Christ's death at the cross
to atone for our sins is untenable. Human beings evolved and never
(suddenly) had free choice to obey or dis-obey (=sin).

The manmade Christian God sacrificed his son to atone for all
sins forever for all times. That brilliant idea of hope and redemption
and forgiveness arose from much older pagan religions that had human
sacrifices at their core. The ultimate sacrifice for redemption was
to offer up your own son, as in the Abraham-Isaac story. That's why
'man' eventually came up with the idea that Christ - the Son - was
sacrificed by the Father and died for the sins of all mankind.

As our species homo sapiens evolved over millions of years, there was
never an Adam and Eve 6000 years ago. That means Eve disobeying
God and eating from the fruit never happened. That means the 'fall'
in the garden of Eden never happened.  That also means a 'fall' e.g.
a million years earlier never happened. That means the philosophy
of Christ having to die for our original sin, for us disobeying God,
has no basis in fact.  Our ancestors millions of years ago did
not have the intellectual capacity nor the choice to obey or disobey.

5. The Christian concept that you can only be saved by accepting
Christ as your savior is untenable. As over 4.5 billion on earth are
not Christians and may not even know about Jesus Christ,
it is illogical to assume that God automatically condemns
4.5 billion out of 6.5 billion to hell = eternal suffering.

Also there are over 100-200 billion stars in our own galaxy,
with a total of 100-200 billion other galaxies in the visible
universe, containing billions of inhabited planets. It is illogical
to assume that God sacrificed his son on billions of planets.

6. All religions are manmade, which explains the huge variety of
religions. Any evolving human society develops beliefs about life
and death, which then often morph into absolute beliefs and then
finally into structured beliefs = religion.

That's why there are so many religions, so many spin-offs of existing
religions, and why so many new spin-offs and denominations are
created all the time, all over the world. There are always new
thinkers with new ideas, creative thinkers who strongly reject the
older ideas.

7. All religions and their spin-offs are manmade, and the concept of
'God' including the 'God' of Christianity, Islam and Judaism is man
made.

As nowhere in the material world we see physical acts/actions by
a 'God' on matter, there is no reason to assume that an 'immaterial'
God like the Christian God (who controls, guards, acts on matter
= interferes in our world) exists.

8. So we have to face the fact, with courage and logic, and conclude
that:   GOD IS ABSENT,  IS DEAD  OR  DOES NOT EXIST.

As I find it illogical that if an all powerful God existed, he would
decide to disappear from our material world = universe into some
other universe, or even die, i.e., disappear from all possible
universes, there is only one conclusion left:

There is no immaterial God applying material forces on or into
our physical environment.

That means all physical and chemical occurrences can be
explained (sooner or later) without having to introduce a
supernatural and  'immaterial'  being capable of and actively
acting on matter.  Therefore the conclusion is that (the Christian)
God does not exist and was made up.

You can only exist if you are matter or tied to matter.
You only exist if you can act upon matter. When tied to matter,
'one' can be observed, measured, etc., and thus be proven to exist.

Example:
In the tsunami near Sumatra up to 100,000 innocent children
were killed in just one hour (in total an estimated 220,000 died).
'God' did not do it.
'Satan' did not do it.
Humans did not do it.
The earth core is cooling, forcing huge plates to move,
which occasionally rupture or fracture into earthquakes,
volcanic eruptions, etc., which then can cause terrible
natural catastrophes such as this tsunami.
Nowhere did or does the 'hand of God' act anywhere.
He did not cause it, he did not prevent it.

9. The mystery of matter and the most crucial question and
profound mystery of all

--- 'WHY WE (made of matter) EXIST'  ----

does not mean we have to assume an all powerful being like the
Christian God who creates, controls, acts on matter,
and rules and monitors everything.

In the last 1000 years more and more mysteries have been explained.
In the coming thousands of years many more mysteries will be
resolved. That means religious beliefs get pushed back more and
more, away from the current simple absolute religious 'truths'
and beliefs as described in 'holy' books.  Religions always consist
of a mixture of man made philosophies, myths, theories, taboos,
legends, laws, rules, remnants of pagan religions, etc.,
explanations from hundreds of years or even much longer ago,
and are being pushed back or voided by science and much
more rational explanations.

That also means a religion such as Christianity can only survive if
it develops a much better explanation and rationale for the mystery
of matter and life, and for our existence. However Christianity
cannot  're-engineer' itself. It cannot offer a science-based
explanation of life, or even reform itself into a more rational
philosophy of life.

So it will remain an anti-scientific belief system based on fixed
explanations for life and death, made by men and women
who lived hundreds and even thousands of years ago.

The contradiction between what we learn from science and the
fixed explanations from hundreds and thousands of years ago
will grow. Christianity and other similar religions likely will
slowly disappear. The psychological human need for spirituality
will not disappear, but the dogmas and beliefs of religions such
as Christianity, Islam and Judaism will become less and less
acceptable to more and more people.

10. The core issue is a direct conflict between:

o   the religious/emotional/non-scientific approach or persona and
o   the scientific/rational approach or persona

Spirituality will stay in various forms, but dogmatic religions based
on ancient and fixed beliefs will slowly disappear or remain with
smaller and smaller groups of the uneducated or the un-enlightened
or the desperate or the frightened or the indoctrinated.

There may be long religious revivals and reactions but
on longer terms science and associated education
will (albeit slowly) void ancient belief systems.

However, religions can very well hang on for a long time,
even when becoming unsatisfactory to many more people, e.g. if
and when there are no other enticing spiritual/social frameworks
as substitutes or replacements. For scientists that could well be
science and the wonders, the size and the unbelievable beauty
and complexity of the physical universe.

But the masses are poorly educated and never get enthralled
by nature or by scientific exploration and thought. They do
get enthralled by food, drink, sex, entertainment and the
accumulation of material possessions:
The absence or substitute for or even opposite of spirituality.

The basic science-religion conflict is also why so many religions,
including Christianity and Islam, in their core must stay so anti-
science. They can never embrace a much more rational belief
system that so clearly exposes the phallacies in their inherited
belief system.

Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?

Instead of believing in fixed philosophies, laws and taboos
created by men and women many hundreds and even thousands
of years ago, who did not know any better (not their fault),
it is much better to determine our own beliefs and truths.
That will enable us to leave behind outdated laws, fears,
prejudices, misconceptions, racism, intolerance,
supremacy feelings, and ancient ideas about death,
heaven, hell, sin, soul, etc.

That freedom will jettison all the religious garbage that is
a constant obstructionist obstacle to a better, more rational
and more humane world.

Rationality does not ENSURE more humanity, but in my
opinion it is a more promising path than non-rationality
including religions such as Christianity.

Michael M. Terra - Carl Sagan's Billions and Billions
IlBeBauck@gmail.com - 25 Dec 2007 14:16 GMT
On Dec 24, 10:20 pm, "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> I struggled for a long time, in my younger years, trying to
> understand the basic doctrines, the core beliefs, the philosophies,
[quoted text clipped - 217 lines]
>
> That freedom will jettison all the religious garbage that is
REPLY:  Perhaps you just didnt get your many questions answered then.
In the book :"IDont Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist' by Dr. Norman
Geisler , he detailed the evidence for Christ, God, absoloute moral
laws, the new testament, the old testament, heaven, hell, etc... in
very clear terms . In addition, he fairly treats the Atheism Faith  as
he describes the enourmous faith an atheist must have to deny a
personal Creator.  Its the book that even atheists say is very very
compelling (only that their WILL vetos it).  If  youre still truly
interested in seeking the truth, it can be obtained inexpensively at
www.impactapologetics.com  .  If money is a bit tight for you at this
christmas time, i would consider it a pleasure to send you one as my
Christmas gift to you.   Regards.
Mark K. Bilbo - 25 Dec 2007 16:07 GMT
> REPLY:  Perhaps you just didnt get your many questions answered then. In
> the book :"IDont Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist' by Dr. Norman
> Geisler ,

Who is, purely by the title, a liar.

It does not require "faith" to lack belief in something. That's stupid.

Signature

Mark K. Bilbo                a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
Nine out of ten priests who have tried Camels, prefer young boys.

Christopher A.Lee - 25 Dec 2007 16:22 GMT
>> REPLY:  Perhaps you just didnt get your many questions answered then. In
>> the book :"IDont Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist' by Dr. Norman
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>It does not require "faith" to lack belief in something. That's stupid.

It is a rare theist who understands what an atheist is.

And a mind-bogglingly stupid, arrogant one who tells us to read a
bookm by a pig-ignorant liar to "tell us what we are".
Mark K. Bilbo - 25 Dec 2007 21:03 GMT
>>> REPLY:  Perhaps you just didnt get your many questions answered then.
>>> In the book :"IDont Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist' by Dr. Norman
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> And a mind-bogglingly stupid, arrogant one who tells us to read a bookm
> by a pig-ignorant liar to "tell us what we are".

You could have stopped at "understands". <G>

Signature

Mark K. Bilbo                a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
Why does the Vatican have lightning rods?

Peter Bowditch - 26 Dec 2007 00:16 GMT
>Perhaps you just didnt get your many questions answered then.
>In the book :"IDont Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist' by Dr. Norman
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>christmas time, i would consider it a pleasure to send you one as my
>Christmas gift to you.   Regards.

PO Box 1166
Parramatta NSW 2124
Australia

Thank you. I look forward to reading the book and being converted.

Signature

Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Michael Ejercito - 25 Dec 2007 16:32 GMT
On Dec 24, 8:20 pm, "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?
  Rejecting Christianity is a step forward into the lake of fire.

Michael
Mark K. Bilbo - 25 Dec 2007 21:04 GMT
>> Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?
>
>    Rejecting Christianity is a step forward into the lake of fire.

Which place you cannot provide evidence exists so who cares?

Signature

Mark K. Bilbo                a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
“There is always an easy solution to every
problem - neat, plausible, and wrong.”

- H. L. Mencken

george - 25 Dec 2007 23:16 GMT
> >> Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?
>
> >    Rejecting Christianity is a step forward into the lake of fire.
>
> Which place you cannot provide evidence exists so who cares?

Rejection of any and all religions is a great leap forward in Mans
evolution..

Dante said that hell was a frozen lake. this twit claims its a lake of
fire.
Maybe they should all go away and spend a few centuries working the
next lot of their bullshit out while the rest of us get on with life
Michael Ejercito - 25 Dec 2007 23:35 GMT
> > >> Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Rejection of any and all religions is a great leap forward in Mans
> evolution..

  A leap forward into the lake of fire...

Michael
DanielSan - 25 Dec 2007 23:41 GMT
>>>>> Why is rejecting Christianity in my opinion a step forward?
>>>>    Rejecting Christianity is a step forward into the lake of fire.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>    A leap forward into the lake of fire...

"Lake of Fire"....is that anything like Klingon homeworld of Qo'noS
(Kronos)?

P.S.:  "Lake of Fire" is an actual location on the map.  It's a valley
just outside of Jerusalem where they dumped the trash and other refuse
and, in order to keep the level down, they'd set it on fire.  It stunk
like nobody's business and they'd execute criminals in that "lake of
fire" created by the burning garbage.

Research "Valley of Hinnom" and "Gehenna" for more information.

Signature

****************************************************
*          DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226          *
*--------------------------------------------------*
* "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act *
* of the whole American people which declared that *
* their legislature should make no law respecting  *
* an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the *
* free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of   *
* separation between church and state."            *
*                         --Thomas Jefferson, 1802 *
****************************************************

Mark K. Bilbo - 26 Dec 2007 13:27 GMT
>> > > On Dec 24, 8:20 pm, "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com>
>> > > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>    A leap forward into the lake of fire...

And soon as you have evidence for such a thing, we'll start worrying...

Signature

Mark K. Bilbo                a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
“Honor is simply the morality of superior men.”

- H. L. Mencken

V - 26 Dec 2007 14:13 GMT
On Dec 24, 11:20 pm, "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> I struggled for a long time, in my younger years, trying to
> understand the basic doctrines, the core beliefs, the philosophies,
[quoted text clipped - 225 lines]
>
> Michael M. Terra - Carl Sagan's Billions and Billions

While what you write is true for the most part (it may be all true but
I just skimmed your post) ...what is logical is not always practical
when it comes to humans. And we can especially see this with our
atheist friends.

Without spiritual values, the atheist is sunk. The atheist that only
has a foundation of ego and hate will never find peace. And this
include the scientists as well. If any theist questioning their faith
should wonder onto alt.atheism they could see this for themselves with
the underlying dissatisfaction with the members and their projection
of this self hate onto others.

What is missing in these atheists lives? '

Spiritual Values' is what they are short on.

Such atheists devoid of spiritual values are 'dogmatic skeptics',
whereas atheists that are open to spiritual vales are of the order of
'skeptical skeptics.' There is a world of difference between the two
types of atheists...night and day difference.

As one dogmatic skeptic put it:

"What is spirit or spirituality?  Without knowing what you mean by the
word, one can't know what you mean.  Why study something for which you
not only have no evidence, but not even a definition?"

A Hindu sage underscores what is wrong with such 'mind manacled
atheists' that think spiritual studies is a waste of time:

"Just as water floes downhill without effort but requires outside
forces and energy to make it move uphill. So the human consciousness
falls to its lowest levels of the senses without effort and energies
to make our consciousness gravitate to more than our base desires."

Professor Peter Kreeft also remarked on this subject of morality:

First level morality could be called survival morality - lets not hit
each other on the head so none of us will die

Second level morality could be justice morality - lets not hit each
other on the head because it is not fair or not right.

Third level morality could be called 'transcend the ego' morality -
lets not hit each other because we love each other. (this third level
morality comes from spiritual studies and religion)

Just being an atheists does nothing for one morality and virtue. As I
said, all one has to do is look around here for proof of that. If
anything, alt.athist does a disservice to atheism by demonstrating how
low the human sprit can sink without any connection to spiritual
values.

When you write:

"An atheist's belief is not dependent on their fear, pain, and
pleasure -- he will believe in what the evidence shows,"

This is not true. Every atheists serves 2 Gods whether they like it or
not. of course atheists will never admit this since it makes them
theist of sorts. But until they accept they have a higher power to
serve their life will Connie on the downward spire of self
destruction. (Please not, I am not trotting to play games here and
convince atheists that the 2 gods I write about are Yahweh.)

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=342.0

Yes, spiritual concepts are hard to define, just as the source of the
wind is hard to define. We can describe spiritual concepts but it is
impossible to put our finger on it all exactly. Spiritual growth is a
journey that is a never ending, imperfect process in this life.  But
just as we can see the effects of the wind while being blind to its
source, We can most definitely see the difference in people that live
a life devoid of any spiritual values whatsoever to those people that
incorporate spiritual values in their lives.

I was at a religious discussion where the group was composed of a wide
spectrum of believers and non believers. One atheist said he ran his
life by the golden rule. Another person piped up that the golden rule
came from the bible, which made the atheist wince. The atheist seemed
to take pride in his self sufficiency and did not like to run his life
by anything that came out of the bible. Then when it came up that the
golden rule might be from another source than he bible the atheist was
relieved.

This was a good reminder to me to examine where my guiding light
resides? Is it ego based or truth based? When the guiding light of
this atheist was not grounded in the bible he was happy. But when it
came from an area that he did not like, he was upset. How can the same
material be used to build a palace by one man, yet only build a hovel
for another? By one spiritual practitioner seeing truth and applying
it to live a life at peace. And the other person only seeing prejudice
and problems and doing nothing.

Every religion was made by man and as such every religion is imperfect
as it is run by man. Despite these imperfections, each religion also
has many "perfection's" within it as well. We can still be open to
peace generating tools from any of the religions and spiritual
traditions that are available to us if we are serious about being at
peace. This requires us to run our life by truth and not by prejudice.
In the Sermon on the Mount, it was reported that Jesus said:
"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to
them" (Matthew 7:12). Nowadays this verse is commonly referred to as
"The Golden Rule," and is more commonly quoted as: "Do unto others as
you would have them do unto you." I've been told this concept is much
older than the bible. Here are a few sources http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

~1970-1640 BCE "Do for one who may do for you, / That you may cause
him thus to do." - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110, Ancient
Egypt, tr. R.B. Parkinson.

* ~700 BCE "That nature only is good when it shall not do unto another
whatever is not good for its own self." - Dadistan-i-Dinik 94:5,
Zoroastrianism.

* ? BCE "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others."
- Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29, Zoroastrianism.

* ~550 BCE "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your
countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the LORD." - Tanakh,
new JPS translation, Leviticus 19:18, Judaism.

* ~500 BCE "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find
hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5:18, Buddhism.

Now, whether you believe in God or believe in Jesus or are an atheist
or Buddhist does this wisdom not apply to you? Some say Jesus was a
myth created by the Christians. Even so, does it make the golden rule
false? This truth is generally universal in nature. Neil wont agree
that it is ultimate universal truth, but if Neil is wait to find
ultimate, universal truth when it comes to spiritual values and morals
he will be waiting a long time. This is why Neil is Neil...analysis
paralysis. Aristotle shed a little light on this subject - "It is the
mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without
accepting it and to rest satisfied with the degree of precision which
the nature of the subject admits and not to seek exactness where only
an approximation is possible." And while Neil is educated and smart
academically, Neil is also bankrupt when it comes to spiritual values.

In this case, you can adopt a peace generating tool and apply it to
your life irrespective of your religious beliefs or lack thereof.
Wisdom for living a life at peace is all around us for the taking. But
many of us get blinded with labels and personal prejudices. Whenever
we take it upon ourselves to beat down, we are headed in a direction
of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well as others peace.
As such, I practice from many religious and spiritual traditions
without problems or prejudices and readily look for such gifts
irrespective of what label they come under - on the contrary I am most
grateful wherever I find them. If I am not able to use a concept, I
leave it alone, but do not spend my time or energies to beat others
down. Do we like to be beaten down?

I see this predisposition to destruction many times in responses I
receive from my posts. The critiques offer much in the line of 'no
goods' but they seldom do they offer any substantive tools to finding
peace. Maybe I do not have it '100% right' but I have it 'right
enough' to be able to be at peace if I apply these principles. If I
waited for perfection like Neil, I would never act. I use the tools at
hand the best I can.

This being able to 'rest satisfied' is something the perfectionists
lack and why they will never be at peace until they stop collecting
concepts and start using the concepts of peace generation. Their
practice is ego based, mine is practice based. We can examine our
writing to see what useful tools for finding peace we offer others or
is all our efforts to beat others down? When you practice peace
promotion you will reap inner peace promotion. When you practice
destroying others peace you will reap self destruction of inner peace.
This is karma in action, this is the bible, 'reap as yea sow,' this is
universal truth.

(name removed) writes: "... a glance at history shows that the Golden
Rule hasn't made Christians especially peaceful."

V writes:

Yes, this is true and it proves the point that knowledge without
application is useless. It also confirms the 'eightfold path of
Buddhism' that reminds us of the right ways to peace.

Sure tearing others down appeals to ones ego and pride, but so did
torturing insects when we were kids. When we grow up we need a
different way to find self worth. As you instill seeds of peace within
others you plant the same seeds and water these seeds within you as
well. As you give so you receive. Whenever we take it upon ourselves
to beat down others, we are headed in a direction of destroying peace.
We destroy our own peace as well as others peace. It takes no energy
from me to pass something by and leave it alone in peace. But it takes
my energy as well as my peace to pick something up to destroy it. (No,
I am not talking about picking up a potato to destroy it by eating
it.)

Maybe something useful in the members reviewing "The Affirmations of
Humanism: A Statement of Principles"

* We are committed to the application of reason and science to the
understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.

* We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to
explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature
for salvation.

* We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute
to the betterment of human life.

* We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is
the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian
elites and repressive majorities.

* We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and
state.

* We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of
resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.

* We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and
with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.

* We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so
that they will be able to help themselves.

* We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race,
religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or
ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of
humanity.

* We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future
generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other
species.

* We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our
creative talents to their fullest.
* We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.

* We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to
fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to
exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and
informed health-care, and to die with dignity.

* We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity,
honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to
critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we
discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.

* We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We
want to nourish reason and compassion.

* We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.

* We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still
to be made in the cosmos.

* We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to
novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.

* We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of
despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal
significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.

* We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than
despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance,
joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love
instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of
ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.

* We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that
we are capable of as human beings.

Council for Secular Humanism

The 'informal creed' of atheism also supports these values for the
dogmatic skeptic that is attached to asterism under all costs and
discounts secular humanism as well.

An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes
that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth
for all men together to enjoy.

An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he
must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life,
to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.

An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a
knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will
help to a life of fulfillment. He seeks to know himself and his fellow
man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital
should be built instead of a church.

An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer
said.

An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death.
He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He
wants man to understand and love man.

He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a
god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a
hereafter.

He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our
own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the
time is now."

http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/

Take care,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
V - 26 Dec 2007 14:15 GMT
> On Dec 24, 11:20 pm, "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 205 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

They like to fantasize what the world would be like if religion would
never have been invented.

Atheists look at this topic with tunnel vision

The facts are this: when people are devoid of religion / spiritual
values...they generally stink as humans.

Sure Christians do bad things, so do all practitioners in other
religions. But many of these religious practitioners also do good
things.

You never see atheists taking up charitable works and feeding and
clothing the poor in any organized way as Christians do.

There may be the odd atheists philanthropists here or there, but
nothing organized like Christians charitable organizations.

I wrote to the president of American Atheists, UK Atheists, the
Secular Humanism Foundation, Sam Harris and others about this very
topic and none had the courtesy to reply.

Shows how much interest atheists really have in humanity.

No, I prefer to keep things as they are and keep religions, even with
all their imperfections.

I believe religions do more good than harm. I shudder to think what
the world would be like if it was composed solely of atheists.

The many countries that the US has been at war with and subsequently
lost the war to can be most grateful we were not an atheist country.

If we were a country that did not apply Christian principles to our
captors millions more would have been killed.

Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic
cleansing rather than applying charity.

Atheist like to claim religion killed so many people...well without
religion in world the killings would have been much worse.

When I discussed Christian principles one time an Atheist piped up to
say "the Christians have no principles," and "Jesus was a fabled
creation of the Christians."

When we sperate the personalities from the principles it makes looking
at things much easier. When I am referring to Christian principles I
speak of such things as charity, works of mercy and the golden rule,
where the emphasis is on principles and not on the personalities of
the church.

For even if Jesus was just created as a fable, these Christian
principles are universal truths in their own right if one desires to
live a life at peace and promote the inner peace of others in this
world.

"The Corporal Works of Mercy"

To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty
To clothe the naked
To harbour the harbourless
To visit the sick
To ransom the captive
To bury the dead

"The Spiritual Works of Mercy"

To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners
To bear wrongs patiently
To forgive offenses willingly
To comfort the afflicted
To pray for the living and the dead

You see, by applying the rule of reciprocity or rule of opposites we
can see if we were in these positions of the needy mentioned above, we
would like such charity bestowed on us for the most part. What about
our children, parents and loved ones? Wouldn't we wish the same for
them? We have no loved ones? What about our neighbors? The Christian
ethic says to treat one another as we would wish to be treated. As we
give ~ so we receive.

Even if an atheist, as we give peace - we receive inner peace as many
of the tools I mentioned above do not require belief in God, they only
requirement is a desire to be at peace and to bring peace to others.
This is the Christian doctrine in a nutshell, when we put principles
before personalities.

As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well. As James Allen wrote in "As
a man Thinketh" ~ To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to
patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are
the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of
peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their
possessor."

This is universal truth that transcends man made religions. Remember,
we do not have to do it perfectly. Just look for direction and forget
perfection - for perfection or range is of the ego and form is of the
soul. There are many tools for peace within the worlds spiritual
paths, no one said these paths are perfect, in fact, it was once said
that walking the spiritual path is akin to walking on a razors edge.

But if we bother to be honest, non prejudicial and to look, we can
find tools that can help us be at peace whether atheist, agnostic or
believer.

Again, when people are devoid of religion...they generally stink as
humans.

Until atheism can replace theist based religion as a VIABLE and REAL
way to inner peace, with a reverence of humanity, it can never take
over the world and extinguish religion.

When you get rid of one thing, it makes room for another.

Sure atheist can succeed at pointing to the flaws of religious
thought, but they have nothing to replace the flaws with.

So theists choose the lesser of two evils while on earth, with the
hopes of hitting the jackpot in the hereafter.

When atheists become successes at 'the religion of humanity,' you may
become more successful at replacing theist based religion.

Until that time..."a mans mind may be likened to a garden which may be
intelligently cultivated or allowed to run wild; but whether
cultivated or neglected, it must and will bring forth. If no useful
seeds are put into it, then an abundance of useless 'weed seeds' will
fall therein and will continue to produce their kind." ~ James Allen

And religion does a good job at controlling the weeds.

In its history, organized atheism has never succeeded at replacing
religion with real humanity and compassion.

The atheists talk a good story, but atheists fail miserably when it
comes to practical application of the 'peace talk.'

And really the vast majority of atheists don't even have 'the talk' to
spout, since they have no semblance of inner peace themselves in order
to form a basis of 'lip service' to pontificate.

Don't know what I mean?

I'm saying that most atheists are too ignorant when the subject turns
to inner peace to even lie about or pretend that they know anything
about the subject.

Another reason atheists will never win, is in general it takes hatred
to fuel atheism if one is a dogmatic, militant atheist.

Hatred blinds one to peace.

When you lose the hatred and militant foundation, then you do not wish
to destroy others or their religion....you are at peace to let them be
religious.

Sure you do not let others destroy you with religion, you tell them
the facts that they run by faith, so do not get too high and mighty
and start forcing you into the religion against your will.

But you only fight in a measured way of self defense, instead of the
offensive atheists that sets out to destroy 'all faith based beliefs'
just for the sheer joy of hurting another.

Sure tearing others down appeals to one's ego and pride, but so did
torturing insects when we were kids. When we grow up we need a
different way to find self worth.

As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well.

As you give so you receive.

Is that from the bible or karma?

No, it is just universal law.

Do we like to be beaten down?

Whenever we take it upon ourselves to beat down others, we are headed
in a direction of destroying peace. We destroy our own peace as well
as others peace.

It takes no energy from me to pass something by and leave it alone in
peace. But it takes my energy as well as my peace to pick something up
to destroy it.

When I posted this paragraph earlier, an atheist piped to accuse me of
hypocrisy, telling me that I destroy a potato when I pick it up to eat
it, so I am a liar.

Natural law dictates I must eat, but there is no law that says I must
spew venom from my mouth to destroy others.

If atheists can get over fishing for red herrings and get onto bigger
fish to fry they will see a world of difference in their peace
practice.

The destruction of inner peace by destroying potatoes comes about when
I destroy my neighbors crop field of potatoes by poisoning them to
bankrupt him in order to take over his farmland...it does not come
about by eating a potato.

The God of Nature gives me potatoes to eat, the God of Inner Peace
tells me to not eat potatoes in excess or to destroy others if I wish
to be at peace. I cannot see either God, I know not how these God's
work, I just know they are and I can abide by their guidance or be
defiant to these Gods and end up destroying my life and the lives of
others.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=342.0

Yes, there are theists that stink. See: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/burning.html

I will be the first to admit that religion has done lots of harm but I
will also say religion done lots of right.

And just as the question of God cannot be answered with any certainty,
so goes the question of whether the world would have been better off
without religion or not.

It is a question that cannot be answered like it was in the movie
"It's a Wonderful life.'

But lets look at the facts and see that the vast, vast majority of
people are theists or believe in hereafter, so the pot is enormous
that we draw from when we pull out examples of evildoing theists that
the atheists like to parade around.

The USA was founded with God in the details. I suggest atheists that
hate a religious based country like the USA move to China or Russia.
Then you can live your dream right now, in your God free country.

In China, it was a common practice to execute political prisoners with
one bullet to the head...then they sent the bill for the bullet to the
family of the executed prisoner. That is where separation of state and
religion can lead a country. Once religion is out of politics, then
the only thing left in control is ego.

They say Hitler was a Catholic?

I don't know if he was Catholic or not.

I do know that Hitler did not practice even the most basic tenants of
Christianity.

It takes more than lip service to be a 'practicing' Catholic,
Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu or Hebrew follower.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=380.0

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_frm/thread/125b41aa8fd2b87b/cf
400bdf88ba1701?lnk=gst&q=conundrum&rnum=7&hl=en#cf400bdf88ba1701


http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=509.0

Now, some 'spiritually based atheist's can far surpasses many theists
in kindness and virtue many times...so it just depends on what 'type
of atheist' you are talking about? But these sort of atheists are very
rare to encounter, as spiritual values and atheism do not generally
mix.

"People that practice religion are worried about going to hell -
people that practice spirituality have already been to hell and don't
want to go back."

A lot of atheists I run into make their intellect their God. They do
not know that academic smarts are not the same as peace smarts. Until
they can transcend their ego they will never find the answer (peace)
they seek.

It is the same for those that think money is all that is standing
between them and happiness.

So it goes for the ego and intellect based person that is devoid of
spiritual values.

And if the atheists is honest they will see they do not run their
lives solely by logic and are no better than the theist that runs
their lives by faith.

No, logic only goes so far in life. For what is logical is not always
practical when it comes to humans ... is it?

Always remember...one thing only goes so far with giving a person a
good life. Seek balance.

Spiritual growth as well as humans are not perfect - but we can all do
better at being humans if we try to be more humane.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=4.0

There are many flavors of atheists...natural atheists, personal
atheists, explicit atheists, implicit atheists weak atheists, strong
atheists, discovery atheists, reactionary atheists, indoctrinated
atheists and of course the bad a.s atheists with attitude aka BAAWA
varieties.

But the defining characteristic that leads an atheist to peace is
whether they are a 'spiritual based atheist' or 'defiance based
atheist.''

The business of humanism is 'all our business' if we with to live life
at peace. Egocentricity is not good for spiritual work and we need to
be open to others ideas and embrace them as nourishment for your
growth and sustenance for life - as no one person is god.

As a freethinking agnostic I AM FREE to look for truth wherever the
road takes me. I discriminate against no one. As such, I study with
the Christians, the Buddhists, the Jews, the Muslims, the Taoists and
even find truth as I study with the atheists.

When you practice peace promotion with others you will reap inner
peace promotion. When you practice destroying others peace, you will
reap self destruction of inner peace.

Take care,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
V - 26 Dec 2007 14:16 GMT
> > On Dec 24, 11:20 pm, "Carl Sagan's billions" <mm2te...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 198 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I was discussing 'spiritual aspects of living' on various online
forums. One group was a dedicated atheists discussion list with most
members only offering bitter personal attacks instead of adding
anything substantive to the discussion.

But to be fair to these atheists, I've known many a religious fellow
that are just as bitter, if not more so, than atheists I meet. So just
being 'religious' is not a guarantee of being at peace.

Each man made religion contains perfection's as well as imperfections.
It is up to the practitioner or end user to use the tools in the right
way.

The problem is not the wisdom that is defective.

The problem lies with religious practitioners who are defective in
their practice of this wisdom.

The wisdom works - we don't work the wisdom.

Many times we are too busy for peace. As one atheist list member
wrote, 'It took awhile - far too long, really - but I've finally found
that one can find peace by simply being undisturbed."

Yes, peace is our birthright, if we are not destroying it by our own
actions. In order to slow down enough to be able to use peace as a
tool I needed to apply simplicity and renunciation to my life.

I am not an acetic or total renunciate by any means, but I did have to
let go of many peace destroying habits before making room for inner
peace to enter my life. As we get rid of one thing, it make room for
another thing to enter.

The online discussions based in bitterness brought up the question of
"what guiding light do atheists use to be at peace?"

Not much was offered in reply to my question. I got a few answers here
or there.

It seems whenever the discussion turns to 'inner peace' many of the
people I talk with are silent, this even goes for 'pious' Catholic
priests.

But, one fellow on the forum mentioned 'truth and philosophy,' as his
tools - both of these being good answers for peace generation with
proper application. Philosophy plays a big role in my life as well for
providing tools to live at peace.

I also supplement my spiritual path from many other sources as I will
go into below. I am only interested in practical application of
philosophy though and not bickering and arguing over the unanswerable.
So, I prefer truth based discussions over ego based discussions where
the truth gets overshadowed by rhetoric. As someone once wrote ... "if
you don't know the answer then just say so."

see:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=504.0

I was at a philosophy symposium last year and talked with a professor
about a teaching / mentor relationship he had with Ayn Rand.

He went on to say how after a year they broke up the mentor
relationship on a sour note. After I questioned the professor about
Rand's personal life as well as her state of inner peace and
happiness, I could see that with all her talents of 'smarts' she was
bankrupt when the subject turned to peace smarts, contentment and
happiness.

She was ego based and not practice based when it came to peace
generation.

Furthermore, she not only destroyed her peace, but from the
information that came out of our discussion, the then student's peace
was disturbed at the time and it still sounded disturbed decades later
as a distinguished professor and author. Academic smarts are not the
same as peace smarts.

The branch of philosophy that deals with the study of ethics and
virtue has also helped me along in life.

What is virtue and ethics?

Some authorities define it as 'excellence of the soul' or moral
excellence. (Although the Greeks thought of 'soul and form' in
different terms than say Christians think of soul. For example, the
soul of an eye would be its ability to 'see' and whether this ability
was good or bad would decide whether the soul of an eye had 'virtue'
or excellence.)

The concept for understanding virtue can be told in a story of the
'Ring of Gyges' or 'Myth of Gyges'. This story was taken from Plato's
Republic and recounts how the shepherd Gyges finds a ring on a hand
extending from a crack in the earth and removes the ring from the hand
and puts it on. Gyges discovers the magic ring gives him powers to be
invisible at will and then uses these powers to kill the king, rape
the queen and take over the kingdom. As James Allen tells us in "As A
Man Thinketh" - "Circumstances does not make the man - it reveals him
to himself"

What is virtuous behavior in a flourishing human being?

In readily understandable terms we can help define virtue for us from
this story of Gyges and by asking ourselves the question, "What would
we do if no one was looking or we knew we would not get caught?"

No heaven, no hell, no God, no karma, no police, nothing but us and
our virtue?

Would our actions promote our inner peace as well as the inner peace
of others or would our actions destroy our peace and the peace of
others?

Virtue is not learned from the classroom, other than memorizing
definitions. Remember, a fool can only say what he knows ~ it takes a
wise man to know what he says.

How do we become a success at living a virtuous life and really know
what we say?

As a lecture on Aristotle mentioned: "We are what we repeatedly do.
Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." We develop it by
practice. Practicing 'excellence of the human soul' is how.

Beside the philosophical studies of ethics and virtue, a Buddhist or
Taoist practice is another good peace developer for anyone to adopt
whether atheist, agnostic or believer.

Buddhists are generally not required to believe or not believe in God,
so anyone can make use of this philosophy irrespective of their
religious beliefs or lack thereof.

But be careful with your Buddhist studies if you decide to head in
this direction. For Buddhism is riddled with useless ego based dogma.
If you can sift through the useless as a freethinker and find the gems
you will do well.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=9.0

Personally, I've settled on the essence of Buddhism and that is what I
work on and find much peace with this type of simplified Buddhist
practice.

"The Three Pillars of Buddhism"

1- Practicing mindfulness and meditation to develop peace and self
awareness of our own true nature.

2- Accepting the liberating wisdom of impermanence and practicing non-
clinging and a lessening of craving and desires.

3- The development of compassion for others.

In addition to the three pillars, we can use the eightfold path to
guide us. Within the three pillars and the eightfold path are a
lifetime of practice.

No need to get lost in endless debate and spend your precious time in
idle talk that only serves to massage one's ego. Plenty of work to do
right here, right now, unless we prefer to keep our minds distracted
through our perpetual complexities we are so addicted to.

We do need to give some thought of the 'right' way to live as the
eightfold path tells us, so we should never try and be devoid of
thought in our lives, but instead look for a balance and let thought
serve us for once.

"The Eightfold Path"

1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration

How can you differentiate right from wrong?

By peace.

You learn what destroys your peace and the peace of others as well as
what promotes you inner peace and the inner peace of others. Do you
need a teacher for that? Or the Pope to tell you? Or just listen to
peace as the best teacher?

The Five precepts are the 'commandments' more or less for Buddhists.
Although you are not commanded to do a thing. If you wish to live at
peace, then proceed the best you can - but it is your choice.

"The Five Precepts"

1.  Refrain from Killing
2.  Refrain from Stealing
3.  Refrain from Sexual Misconduct
4.  Refrain from False Speech
5.  Refrain from the Use of Intoxicants

Once I am at peace, I can share with others about finding peace for
themselves, which is the secondary reason I practice.

I have no interest in practicing Buddhism for extinguishing
reincarnation.  These "fear based" reasons for being a Buddhist are
not authentic or natural - the persons actions are based on fear or
negative consequences otherwise they would not do them. My actions are
based on inner peace and if I stray - there goes my peace - it is my
choice.

Remember what I wrote about above with the myth of Gyges?

Take away the fear of pain of karma or hell and you have a different
person?

A truly virtuous life remains the same irrespective of such fears and
is not based on them.

I enjoy life and realize that due to natural law, suffering comes
about as part of the process and I accept it as a fair trade off for
the privilege of living.

Buddhism helps makes this trade off of life and pain more in my favor
by lending me support to live a life at peace. I do not practice
Buddhism to earn merit for the next life - I practice Buddhism for my
own peace generation in THIS LIFE.

You see, once a religion requires faith, this is where I leave off
with it's teaching.

I only use the tools that can be applied in this life that can be
tested to yield peace.

Otherwise, if I succumb to fantasy notions I start heading towards the
road of delusion.

So whether it is heaven, hell, reincarnation or chanting 'Namo
Amitabha Buddha' for the Buddha to carry me off to the pure
land...none of this can be proven as fact and is just based on ego
based man and their fantasies.

Still, I am not shy about benefiting from any religious path that
offers tools for me to live at peace.

I take from ALL spiritual paths without prejudice, my only requirement
is that the religious or spiritual tool be one that offers peace. Any
tool always has to pass the peace test, this way it speaks of a
'higher authority' than just man made dogma - it speaks of universal
truth.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0

But, this all has to be done in balance.

For there are many true things that are good - but done in excess they
become bad.

For, even though air and water give us life, they will also give us
death when in excess.

So always seek balance.

How flexible can you be when it comes to finding tools for living at
peace within the worlds spiritual paths?

Even though I am not a Muslim, I borrowed from the Muslim's prayer
schedule to use myself. The Muslims have a practice of praying five
times a day to Allah. For those that do not know, Allah is the same
God of the Jews and of the Old Testament that the Christians worship.

The Muslims pray at sun up, when the sun is at its zenith at noon,
when the sun is part way down in the afternoon, when the sun sets and
when they go to bed. Even though I am not a Muslim, I borrowed from
the Muslim's prayer schedule to use as a reminder to be mindful of
"gratitude" in my life.

If you do not want to develop a practice of gratitude, then what about
using it as a reminder 5 times a day to relax your breath, practice
mindfulness and bring your thoughts back to the present moment? When
you have come to a point of gratitude for being able to open your eyes
in the morning and being able to take a breath of air everything else
is just gravy so to speak. Gratitude plays an important part with
finding inner peace, just as being mindful of the present moment and
being aware of anything that causes this mindfulness to wander.

If I could define the basis of my spiritual practice it would be that
of peace and practicality. Inner peace is the foundation of it all,
for we cannot have world peace without first being at peace within. I
used to be a Catholic for many years of my life as well as a
freethinking Buddhist before becoming an agnostic freethinker.

See::

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=318.0

A few years ago a lady moderator on a Christian forum banned me for
claiming that God is peace, telling me "you don't know who God is."

Funny thing about the Christians. I was a Christian as well as a
freethinking Buddhist in my earlier life and 100% of the Christian
forums have banned me, and 95% of the Buddhist forums have also banned
me.

This says something about the Christians and Buddhists and whether
they practice what they preach? The Christians chanting the Golden
rule of Reciprocity and Charity and Humility? and the Buddhists
preaching Compassion, Do No Harm and Egoless Non-Self?

Why am I banned so much?

Is it for getting in fights or flame wars?

No...I get banned for writing about truth.

When someone disagrees with you, apply the law of opposites to get at
the truth.

This removes the personalities and focusses on the principles and
helps you see the entire picture.

If God is not peace, then God must be the opposite of peace...turmoil
and unrest.

I prefer to believe God is peace and God is the authority on the
subject of peace.

The difference between an authority and an authoritarian is this. An
authority speaks from a place of truth and such speaks as an
authority. Whereas an authoritarian rules by fear and not by truth.
For the truth stands on it own and the authoritarian stands on their
ego.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=343.0

The Buddhists have a set of rules they use to determine what are
definitive truths and what are not. This can also be applied to such
questions.

1) Do not rely on just the person but rely on the doctrine.

2) With respect to the doctrine, do not rely on just the words, but
rely on the meaning.

3) With respect to the meaning, do not rely on just meaning requiring
interpretation, but rely on meaning that is definitive.

4) With respect to definitive meaning, do not rely on just dualistic
understanding but rely on the wisdom of the direct perception of the
truth.

Bringing this worship business back to the topic of religion, do we
worship a higher power out of fear for if we do not worship this
higher power we will be killed?

Sounds like the aliens in an old "Superman" movies that came to earth
to tell us to bow down to them or else?

If there was a God or a higher power does this entity need us to 'bow
down' to a 'big ego' or does God need us to 'act right' to our
companions as well as to act right to ourselves?

Bowing down produces no peace, whether in the person that demands it
due to an over bloated ego, nor does it foster peace within the person
forced to worship against their will. But this is how man made
religions work - they are run by fear, greed and ego.

I prefer to be truth and peace based. Many think God is like 'Santa
Claus' and must come through with their demands, just as we did as
greedy children making up a long, impossible list for Santa to fill.
This smacks of the ego based practitioner.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=133.0

The ego based person prays thinking they know better than God does.

The truly spiritual based person prays for God's will and not their
own, for if they truly knew better than God...the practitioner would
be the God.

Nothing wrong with asking if one is a believer, but always end such
requests humbly with accepting Gods or a higher powers will with
gratitude.

Can you imagine if everyone's prayers were answered according to our
self centered and conflicting demands? The world would be in real
turmoil then.

No, I prefer to make the God of Peace and the God of Nature two Gods I
serve and as such my actions can be evaluated in simple terms of
bringing me in harmony with these two Gods or not.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=342.0

Many times we violate the three branches of laws that govern us and
constantly ask God or a higher power to give us 'hall passes' to avoid
the consequences of our actions. Such prayer is again ego based,
thinking we should have preference over the rest of the world for
wishing to be exempt from our actions

We are all governed by these three areas of laws.

1 - Natural Law

2 - Divine or spiritual law (if you believe in spiritual matters)

3 - Manmade laws

I find that sometime spiritual practitioners neglect the natural laws
that govern our bodies and suffer in this area from lack of living a
balanced life.

Some of us forget we are spiritual beings residing in physical bodies
living in physical world and governed my both spiritual and physical
or natural laws in addition to man made laws.

We need some effort with spiritual work and some effort in physical
work for a good balance. Some of us think we can defy man made laws as
well as divine or spiritual laws.

But no matter how defiant the person is...we all answer to natural
law. We all bow to nature in the end.

Anyway, you are free to think or not think of God or higher power as
you see fit. I am only a 'minor authority' on peace and do not wish to
be an authoritarian, so I allow freedom for all to think as they wish
and only ask the same courtesy be extended to me - reciprocity.

Psychologist William James once said, "A great many people believe
they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."

This applies to atheists as well as the religious or the pious. To
avoid prejudice, we have to be careful of 'black or white' absolutes
if you claim to truth based and not ego based in your beliefs. I work
to keep an open mind for all religions as well as those persons that
believe nothing.

When I discussed Christian principles one time an Atheist piped up to
say "the Christians have no principles," and "Jesus was a fabled
creation of the Christians."

When we sperate the personalities from the principles it makes looking
at things much easier. When I am referring to Christian principles I
speak of such things as charity, works of mercy and the golden rule,
where the emphasis is on principles and not on the personalities of
the church.

For even if Jesus was just created as a fable, these Christian
principles are universal truths in their own right if one desires to
live a life at peace and promote the inner peace of others in this
world. Is it any different from the Taoists following the legend of
Lao Tzu? Always look at what is said and not at who says what this
divorces the personalties and prejudice from your search for truth.

"The Corporal Works of Mercy"

To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty
To clothe the naked
To harbour the harbourless
To visit the sick
To ransom the captive
To bury the dead

"The Spiritual Works of Mercy"

To instruct the ignorant
To counsel the doubtful
To admonish sinners
To bear wrongs patiently
To forgive offenses willingly
To comfort the afflicted
To pray for the living and the dead

You see, by applying the rule of reciprocity or rule of opposites we
can see if we were in these positions of the needy mentioned above, we
would like such charity bestowed on us for the most part. What about
our children, parents and loved ones? Wouldn't we wish the same for
them? We have no loved ones? What about our neighbors?

The Christian ethic says to treat one another as we would wish to be
treated. As we give ~ so we receive. Even if an atheist, as we give
peace - we receive inner peace as many of the tools I mentioned above
do not require belief in God, they only requirement is a desire to be
at peace and to bring peace to others. This is the Christian doctrine
in a nutshell, when we put principles before personalities.

As you instill seeds of peace within others you plant the same seeds
and water these seeds within you as well. As James Allen wrote in "As
a man Thinketh" ~ To think well of all, to be cheerful with all, to
patiently learn to find the good in all - such unselfish thoughts are
the very portals of heaven; and to dwell day by day in thoughts of
peace toward every creature will bring abounding peace to their
possessor."

This is universal truth that transcends man made religions.

Remember, we do not have to do it perfectly. Just look for direction
and forget perfection - for perfection or range is of the ego and form
is of the soul.

There are many tools for peace within the worlds spiritual paths, no
one said these paths are perfect, in fact, it was once said that
walking the spiritual path is akin to walking on a razors edge. But if
we bother to be honest, non prejudicial and to look, we can find tools
that can help us be at peace whether atheist, agnostic or believer.

In the Gnostic gospel of Thomas, it was reported:

"The disciples asked Jesus, when will the kingdom come? Jesus replied,
'The kingdom will not come by watching for it.  It will not be said -
look here or look there. Rather, the kingdom of heaven is spread out
upon the earth and men do not see it."

What does this quote mean for the atheist as well as the religious
minded person?

For the atheist or as a nonbeliever of an afterlife:

THIS LIFE IS IT - This life is either heaven or hell as you make it.
Just grabbing all the gusto you can will not give you peace.

It requires much more than that - for greed is never satisfied by
attainment, it is only satisfied by contentment. We are reminded to be
mindful of each moment given to us and to be grateful for this life.
Being of service to others and charitable actions help lead us to
contentment and peace.

There are 3 components for a happy life: Contentment, love or
compassion and gratitude. When we realize that happiness and
contentment are there for the taking and that they are independent
from our circumstances it sometimes can sink in that there is nothing
stopping us from being content and happy this very instant.

It is your choice alone as to whether you make this life one of peace
for yourself and others or not, but in either case you will reap what
you sow. "Just as a life of virtue yields its own reward, a life of
vice yields its own punishment" - Plutarch

For the religious minded person and believer in an afterlife:

Jesus' saying will foreshadow things to come. For if we make this
earthly life hell for ourselves and others, we have a slim chance of
doing better in an afterlife. Just paying lip service to religious
principles and doing the opposite will not do it.

Again mindfulness of our actions is most important. An old Buddhist
saying sheds some light on our journey "when one eye is kept on the
destination, it only leaves one eye left for the journey." If we keep
fixated on the after life, and can't find peace in the present life,
we can lose sight of the fact that our actions can turn the present
moment in a living hell for us as well as others.

Actions speak louder than words and this especially applies to such
religious beliefs. By applying the rule of reciprocity and Christian
ethics and charity we have better chance at entering any afterlife and
in the interim help make this life a peaceful one for all that dwell
on earth.

So, whether you are on either end of this spectrum of beliefs, the
choices are the same as to the direction we take when it comes to
inner peace.

The seeds of enlightenment are all around us - we only have to seek
the truth and come to peace within to realize this.

A quote on finding peace from Thich Nhat Hanh

"There is no way to peace, peace is the way.

This means that we can realize peace right here in the present moment
with our look, our smile, our words and our actions.

Peace work in not a means, each step we take should be peace.

Every step we take should be joy.

Every step we take should be happiness.

Are you massaging Mother Earth every time your foot touches her?

Are you planting seeds of joy and peace?

Enlightenment, peace and joy will not be granted by someone else.

The well is within us and if we dig deeply in the present moment the
water will spring forth.

If we are determined, we can do it.

We don't need the future.

We can smile, breath fully and relax Everything we want is here in the
present moment.

Peace is every step.

Shall we continue our journey?"

Take care,

V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
 
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