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History Forum / General / General Topics / March 2004Magna Carta
Point 23 states... 23. No village or individual shall be compelled to make bridges at river banks, except those who from of old were legally bound to do so. What's this all about?, why was it a big enough issue to be raised in Magna Carta? >Point 23 states... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >What's this all about?, why was it a big enough issue to be raised in Magna >Carta? Well, how would you like to be made to build a bridge when you didn't want to? I've always liked: 33. All the fish-weirs in the Thames and Medway, and throughout all England shall be done away with, except those on the coast.  SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". > >Point 23 states... > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 33. All the fish-weirs in the Thames and Medway, and throughout all > England shall be done away with, except those on the coast. 33. All *kydells* for the future shall be removed altogether from Thames and Medway, and throughout all England, except upon the seashore. 33. Omnis *kidelli* de cetero deponantur penitus de Tamisia, et de Medewaye, et per totam Angliam, nisi per costeram maris. Are you sure a kydell is a weir?, it doesn't appear to be Latin or OE, the nearest I can come up with is *kyle* from the Gaelic *caol* (narrow channel). Jamie "Vaughan Sanders" wrote in message > "Don Aitken" wrote in message > > >Point 23 states... > > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the nearest I can come up with is *kyle* from the Gaelic *caol* (narrow > channel). Someone has probably already translated it. It makes sense if it is a weir. The things tend to get longer and larger which would block the channel and prevent the Barons using the river to get around. -the Troll >> >Point 23 states... >> > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >the nearest I can come up with is *kyle* from the Gaelic *caol* (narrow >channel). Not my translation. I got it from Adams & Stephens "Select Documents of English Constitutional History" of 1901. They credit the translation to Prof. E.P.Cheyney, originally published in "University of Pennsylvanis Translations and Reprints". I suspect the good professor is not around to take up the issue. Do you have an alternative suggestion? SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". > >> >Point 23 states... > >> > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > professor is not around to take up the issue. Do you have an > alternative suggestion? The translation of J.C. Holt in "Magna Carta", Cambridge, 1965 is fish-weir. I have only a vague idea why it should be important, but according to Holt it's a clause which still helps to preserve navigation on the Thames and other rivers. Benjo Maso > >> >Point 23 states... > >> > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > professor is not around to take up the issue. Do you have an > alternative suggestion? No, I was just interested in the word and where it came from, Angevin French might be another possibility. I can't see how weirs (dams) could have been built in the tidal parts of the Thames and Medway. So presumably either this was a problem in the higher reaches, or more likely it does mean stakes and nets. Jamie > I can't see how weirs (dams) could have been built in the tidal parts of > the Thames and Medway. So presumably either this was a problem in the > higher reaches, or more likely it does mean stakes and nets. I believe it's something to do with free navigation on inland waterways. SignatureWilliam Black ------------------ Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government ... > I can't see how weirs (dams) could have been built in the tidal parts of > the Thames and Medway. So presumably either this was a problem in the > higher reaches, or more likely it does mean stakes and nets. A dam or level control is only one meaning of the word weir. It could also mean an embankment at the sides, to narrow and deepen the river or, as you suggest, an array of stakes and nets across the river, to funnel fish into a catch net. Colin Bignell > A dam or level control is only one meaning of the word weir. It could also > mean an embankment at the sides, to narrow and deepen the river or, as you > suggest, an array of stakes and nets across the river, to funnel fish into a > catch net. A fish catching "weir" doesn't have to go across the river. In SE Asia I would see several sets of these V shaped netting structures across tidal waterways. Blocking the entire waterway, even if it were practical, is counterproductive because you end up filtering out almost ALL the fish leaving nothing to breed. > > A dam or level control is only one meaning of the word weir. It could also > > mean an embankment at the sides, to narrow and deepen the river or, as you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > counterproductive because you end up filtering out almost ALL the fish > leaving nothing to breed. A fair amount of the Thames and Medway is dry at low water and is navigated by channels of deeper water. I doubt the main shipping channel of the Thames could have been staked, but some of the channels used to navigate the settlements along the Thames can easily be staked and blocked. A couple of years ago some clown set one of these traps off our windsurfing beach, I had calls from the locals who had caught their fins in the nets to get on to the council foreshore and get it moved. At the time I wasn't sure that the council would have had the power to get it moved, the sea is basically Crown land. It seems I could have said "look moosh, move or else I will have you locked in the Tower on King John's say so". :-)) Jamie > ... > > I can't see how weirs (dams) could have been built in the tidal parts of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Colin Bignell I think the clue is, *only allowed on the sea coast*, fish trap would seem to be the only example of weir that would fit, weir / wear, comes from the OE *wer* (werian - to defend) and wæl - deep pool. I think *kydell* must be Angevin French of Celtic origin (Breton), interesting that it hasn't survived into modern English. It should be remembered that we are talking tidal rivers that can run at 8 knots (spring tides), this might not sound much but we are talking substantial oak posts to hold a net in place. Hit one of these just below the surface in a ship of this period, which would have still been of the lightly built Viking longship / Knarr type and she would have been holed. Jamie >>> Point 23 states... >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > the nearest I can come up with is *kyle* from the Gaelic *caol* > (narrow channel). OED2 says kiddell, kydle, kydell, kedel, kiddel, kidle, kiddle and some others are from AF. kidel, kydel OF. quidel later quideau also guidel mod.F. guideau, a stake-net, also, a line of sloping planks placed to direct a current; Breton kidel stake-net meaning - 'A dam, weir, or barrier in a river, having an opening in it fitted with nets or other appliances for catching fish. ' SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >>> Point 23 states... > >>> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > meaning - 'A dam, weir, or barrier in a river, having an opening in it > fitted with nets or other appliances for catching fish. ' Thanks, anyone know if the Breton kidel is similar in Welsh?. Jamie "Representative Trantis" wrote in message > Point 23 states... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What's this all about?, why was it a big enough issue to be raised in Magna > Carta? Since the King had no public works treasury, and there was very little coined money anyway, it had been the practice to force the local baron or town to build and maintain bridges and roads in the manner of feudal dues or a regular tax-in-labor. If he didn't like you, or wanted an excuse to confiscate your real estate, he could make the request unreasonable. The Barons wanted that unpredictable expense removed from the King's list of available screws........... so to speak. -the Troll |
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