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History Forum / General / General Topics / May 2004Japanese or Nazis: Which is more brutal?
If you feel the japanese were more brutal, however, please state your reasons why. I think most history books say the japanese were more brutal but i could be wrong > If you feel the japanese were more brutal, however, please state your reasons why. > I think most history books say the japanese were more brutal but i could be wrong Do you mean brutal as in abusing POW's? Or general fighting? Or whatever. Japs were more brutal in their treatment of POW's. > Do you mean brutal as in abusing POW's? Or general fighting? Or whatever. > Japs were more brutal in their treatment of POW's. Towards POWs from the western nations at least. There wasn't a lot of difference in overall death rates between prisoners of Japan, and the way Nazi Germany treated Russian POWs, or the way the Soviet Union treated Japanese POWs at the end of the war. > > If you feel the japanese were more brutal, however, please state your > reasons why. > > I think most history books say the japanese were more brutal but i could > be wrong > Do you mean brutal as in abusing POW's? Or general fighting? Or whatever. > Japs were more brutal in their treatment of POW's. I dont trust the opinios of a stupid scientoligist >>> If you feel the japanese were more brutal, however, please state >>> your [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I dont trust the opinios of a stupid scientoligist Saying that the Japanese attrocities don't count because of what happened to aboriginal people all over the world during the colonial era is so idiotic. It is like saying "I'll trade you a Bosnia for an East Timor" Or "I'll swap you a Pinnochet for a Hussein" An attrocity is an attrocity whoever committs it, whenever it happens, and whatever the politics of the day are. Their is today a trend in place to diminish all past sufferings to nil and pretend that only one group has ever suffered a real persecution, and only their suffering should be remembered, and that is the European Holocaust against the Jews. Certainly the Nazi mass-murder of the Jews was an unforgivable crime, but to place it on a pedastal and say that no suffering can ever match this is to diminish and demean what has come since. During the Tutsi genocide in Rwanda, though it only lasted six weeks, the Interahamwe, killed at a faster rate per day than Hitler's death camps ever acheieved,...................and what is worse is both France, Belgium and The United States knew the genocide was going to happen, they had eveidence. It was not a random act of slaughter, but rather was planned two years in advavnce.  Signature@Damski That's right. White people have a right to exterminate entire races of people, to colonize them, treat them brutally as second class citizens in their own lands, and enslave them and sell them as comodities. And the fact that we've been doing it for hundreds of years in Africa, North America, South America and Asia means nothing, compared to what thosed Japs did between 1931 and 1945. You tell them Imperial Wizard. > >>> If you feel the japanese were more brutal, however, please state > >>> your [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > It was not a random act of slaughter, but rather was planned two years in > advavnce. too right. > Saying that the Japanese attrocities don't count because of > what happened to aboriginal people all over the world during [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > random act of slaughter, but rather was planned two years in > advavnce. What's worse is that the United States is STILL supporting the Indonesian invasion & genocide of West Papua http://members.optushome.com.au/daeron/Genocide/ .. cutting a mother open, vivisection the baby in fornt of eighty horrified women and then pack rapping the aunt for objecting.. or filling two womens virginas with battery acid after kidnapping & using them for sex for a month.. how do you compare such actions? All one can say is that the US should stop paying the TNI to do these things. > If you feel the japanese were more brutal, however, please state your reasons why. > I think most history books say the japanese were more brutal but i could be wrong Brutal towards whom? Japanese brutality tended to be culturally systemic during the period between world wars. The army had a major presence in the school system and brutality was incorporated as a training mechanism within the armed forces. They were brutal towards their own people and, as has been noted elsewhere, a child that is beaten learns how to hit. Certainly anytime they were in a position of authority over people, they tended to use physical subjugation. An exception would be Thailand where political rather than military motives governed the relationship. A larger percentage of western POW's died at their hands than in the hands of other Axis powers. The percentage of Asian POW's to die in their hands was even greater. I'd characterize their behavior towards enemy troops and conquered civilian populations as teen-age punks with guns running amok. Germans were no more brutal towards troops of the western allies than we were towards them. Their conduct towards the Russian troops was different - a no quarter war on that front. The majority of people in Western European countries under their control were relatively safe from ad-hoc acts of brutality. Not so on the Eastern Front. The Germans however exercised organized bureaucratic cruelty over populations under their control. Far more scary, and far more effective. > If you feel the japanese were more brutal, however, please state your reasons why. > I think most history books say the japanese were more brutal but i could be wrong I think white colonist is the most brutal one i heard. People like columbus chopped off native americans hands as well as fed babies to dogs. Of course japanese were brutal enough to train suicide bombers. I personally think rape and bad treatments are no big deal if your citizens were starving as well as willing to sacrifice lives. After all, no one would be stupid enough to have citizens starve to death while keeping enermy that you are losing against fed. And guess what, violence as well as rapes happens every day in PEACE time as well as millions die from tabacco and polution. > I think white colonist is the most brutal one i heard. People like columbus > chopped off native americans hands as well as fed babies to dogs. The Japanese in Nanking made that look like childs play. > > I think white colonist is the most brutal one i heard. People like columbus > > chopped off native americans hands as well as fed babies to dogs. > > The Japanese in Nanking made that look like childs play. You are talking out of your a.s. The chinks claim the japs killed 300,000 in Nanking. In fact the Chinks themselves have killed somewhere about 80-100 million of their own kind. Last anyone checked the Japs did not bring the chink population to anywhere near extinction. That's something White colonists in North and South America can never claim. > Last anyone checked the Japs did not bring the chink population to anywhere > near extinction. > That's something White colonists in North and South America can never > claim. Sure they could. LOTS of "native" blood in the gene pool. In "Latin" America, the "tribes" have been assimilated. In the US and Canada, somewhat less so but the individual "tribes" still exist in most of the states including several on the East Coast. > > I think white colonist is the most brutal one i heard. People like columbus > > chopped off native americans hands as well as fed babies to dogs. > > The Japanese in Nanking made that look like childs play. Huh? Child's play to kill native innocent people and feeling live babies to dogs? What could happen at Nanking to top that? > > > I think white colonist is the most brutal one i heard. People like > columbus [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What could happen at Nanking to top that? The Chinese claim the Japanese troops killed 300,000 at Nanking. Anyone want to guess how many Native Americans have been killed in North and South America? It's not even in the same league. > > > > I think white colonist is the most brutal one i heard. People like > columbus [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The Chinese claim the Japanese troops killed 300,000 at Nanking. It's impossible to kill 300,000 in just a few months by a few thousand Japanese troops who did not have any weapon of mass destruction. How long will the Chinese keep insisting this nonsense? Does anyone have any idea how long they will ? > Anyone want to guess how many Native Americans have been killed > in North and South America? > It's not even in the same league. ~ "FreddieM" <anbel2973@dlink.net> wrote in message news:<d1tjc.46953$635.1853@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>... ~ > "onegod" <reportspam@msn.net> wrote in message ~ > news:2srjc.85436$L31.49115@nwrddc01.gnilink.net... ~ > > ~ > > "Bill" <william.loftin@verizon.net> wrote in message ~ > > news:408AC183.4060601@verizon.net... ~ > > > onegod wrote: ~ > > > ~ > > > > I think white colonist is the most brutal one i heard. People like ~ > columbus ~ > > > > chopped off native americans hands as well as fed babies to dogs. ~ > > > ~ > > > ~ > > > The Japanese in Nanking made that look like childs play. ~ > > ~ > > ~ > > Huh? Child's play to kill native innocent people and feeling live babies ~ > to ~ > > dogs? ~ > > ~ > > What could happen at Nanking to top that? ~ > > ~ > ~ > The Chinese claim the Japanese troops killed 300,000 at Nanking. ~ ~ It's impossible to kill 300,000 in just a few months by a few thousand ~ Japanese troops who did not have any weapon of mass destruction. How ~ long will the Chinese keep insisting this nonsense? Does anyone have ~ any idea how long they will ? ~ Come on, Kaz! You can do better than that! Post another demented delusion for the archives! Verno > It's impossible to kill 300,000 in just a few months by a few thousand > Japanese troops who did not have any weapon of mass destruction. How > long will the Chinese keep insisting this nonsense? Does anyone have > any idea how long they will ? And the Holocaust didn't happen either huh? Strangely, the most detailed reports of what happened in Nanking come from a Nazi diplomat who was stationed there. > > It's impossible to kill 300,000 in just a few months by a few thousand > > Japanese troops who did not have any weapon of mass destruction. How [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > detailed reports of what happened in Nanking come from a Nazi > diplomat who was stationed there. Was it the Nazi who stopped a Japanese massacre against the Chinese? When he came back to Germany, the German Nazi Government didn't trust him and when the Chinese in the 50s found out that he lived in poverty, they gathered money for him. SignaturePer Erik Rønne On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:24:07 +0200, per.ronne@doesnt.work.spam.filter.invalid (Per Rønne) wrote: >> > It's impossible to kill 300,000 in just a few months by a few thousand >> > Japanese troops who did not have any weapon of mass destruction. How [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >him and when the Chinese in the 50s found out that he lived in poverty, >they gathered money for him. Yes. His name escapes me at the moment. -- More blood for oil... in my name! > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:24:07 +0200, > per.ronne@doesnt.work.spam.filter.invalid (Per Rønne) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Yes. His name escapes me at the moment. Strange to say but nevertheless - /a decent Nazi/ :-). SignaturePer Erik Rønne On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 16:53:39 +0200, per.ronne@doesnt.work.spam.filter.invalid (Per Rønne) wrote: >> On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 07:24:07 +0200, >> per.ronne@doesnt.work.spam.filter.invalid (Per Rønne) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Strange to say but nevertheless - /a decent Nazi/ :-). And hence a "bad" Nazi. -- More blood for oil... in my name! Per Rønne wrote: >>>It's impossible to kill 300,000 in just a few months by a few thousand >>>Japanese troops who did not have any weapon of mass destruction. How [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > him and when the Chinese in the 50s found out that he lived in poverty, > they gathered money for him. Yes, it was John Rosen. > Per Rønne wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Yes, it was John Rosen. No, his name was John Rabe. And no, he wasn't a diplomat (he worked for the company Siemens) nor did he hold any other formal office or appointment from his country's government. Yes he was a Nazi party member, but as the senior representative of Siemens in Nanjing at the time, this also needs to be taken into its historical context. Signature"Oh don't give me none more of that Old Janx Spirit/ No, don't you give me none more of that Old Janx Spirit/ For my head will fly, my tongue will lie, my eyes will fry and I may die/ Won't you pour me one more of that sinful Old Janx Spirit" >> Per Rønne wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > member, but as the senior representative of Siemens in Nanjing at the > time, this also needs to be taken into its historical context. I have heard of John Rabe also. I specifically was talking about a diplomat in the German Consulate in Nanking. Google on "German diplomat in Nanking" and see the number of hits for John Rosen. >>> Per Rønne wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I have heard of John Rabe also. I specifically was talking about a > diplomat in the German Consulate in Nanking. Yes I'm familiar with Rosen and his sending of McGee's film. I mentioned Rabe because of Per Rønne's question regarding stopping (several) incidents - I was under the impression that most of the "heavy lifting" of the committee in Nanjing was done by Rabe (with Rosen needing to exempt himself due to his position). Signature"Oh don't give me none more of that Old Janx Spirit/ No, don't you give me none more of that Old Janx Spirit/ For my head will fly, my tongue will lie, my eyes will fry and I may die/ Won't you pour me one more of that sinful Old Janx Spirit" >I mentioned Rabe because of Per Rønne's question regarding stopping (several) >incidents - I was under the impression that most of the "heavy lifting" >of the committee in Nanjing was done by Rabe... It was. Some years ago the Chinese government tracked down Rabe's reclusive family and his diaries in Berlin. I believe the diary is now part of a museum in China that documents events in Nanking and honors Rabe. In regard to this thread, it's sad to see that some persons are so paralyzed by their ideological constraints that they forget about common humanity. http://www.randomhouse.ca/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0375701974 http://www.historyuniverse.com/bookstore1/0375701974AMUS128691.shtml Regards, ES > Yes I'm familiar with Rosen and his sending of McGee's film. I mentioned > Rabe because of Per Rønne's question regarding stopping (several) > incidents - I was under the impression that most of the "heavy lifting" > of the committee in Nanjing was done by Rabe (with Rosen needing to > exempt himself due to his position). Rosen or Rabe, they were both there and documented the 300,000 deaths inflicted by the Hiroshima Brigade. > > Per Rønne wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > No, his name was John Rabe. Strange name [John] for a German. > And no, he wasn't a diplomat (he worked for the company Siemens) nor did > he hold any other formal office or appointment from his country's > government. Yes he was a Nazi party member, but as the senior > representative of Siemens in Nanjing at the time, this also needs to be > taken into its historical context. SignaturePer Erik Rønne >> The Chinese claim the Japanese troops killed 300,000 at Nanking. > >It's impossible to kill 300,000 in just a few months by a few thousand >Japanese troops who did not have any weapon of mass destruction. How >long will the Chinese keep insisting this nonsense? Does anyone have >any idea how long they will ? I don't know the accounts for or against that event, but I can run a few numbers. Say 370,000 in 120 days, that's about 3000 per day. I don't actually know how many a few thousand Japanese troops were, but if it were 3000 soldiers, that's one per soldier per day. Surely some soldiers were cooks, mechanics, or in other supporting roles. But given the opportunity, those in the field wouldn't have stopped at just one. As a ballpark figure, it seems reasonable. Signature"Let us learn to dream, gentlemen, then perhaps we shall find the truth... But let us beware of publishing our dreams before they have been put to the proof by the waking understanding." -- Friedrich August Kekulé >>>>> I think white colonist is the most brutal one i heard. People >>>>> like [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > long will the Chinese keep insisting this nonsense? Does anyone have > any idea how long they will ? It is perfectly true that the Japanese killed between 260,000 and 35,000 in an orgy of violence that lasted for months. the Internation Tribunal of the Far East estimated the death toll of Nanking to have been 260,000. If anyone is telling lies it is the Japanese, who unlike the Germans have refused to accept any notion of "guilt" over the behaviour of their armed forces in WW2. Some of the high ranking officers went on to long and successful careers in Japanese politics. That the Nanking massacre happened is beyond doubt, that it was as brutal as is claimed is proven by the diaries of John Rabe, a German, and member of the Nazi Party who documented and filmed the atrocities, and was aressted by the Gestapo when he tried to conatct Hitler about Naking when he returned to Germany. Why would an Ally of Japan lie about the behaviour of it's soldiers? If anything, they would surely try to *minimize* the atrocities. Look for a book called "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang, who is not writing Chinese propaganda, since she is a US citizen, living in California. As for it being impossible for the Japanese army to have killed so many in such a short time..........look at Rwanda , where more than 600,000 were muredered in six weeks, and the "Interahamwe" did not even have guns, only machetes and clubs. It is the Japanese who are lying here, mate, refusing to accept the guily for the baranarity they perpartreted across all of occupied China, but most especially in Nanking Signature@Damski > >>>>> I think white colonist is the most brutal one i heard. People > >>>>> like [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > of Japan lie about the behaviour of it's soldiers? If anything, they would > surely try to *minimize* the atrocities. If John Rabe was a real NAZI at heart (rather than one of many Germans who simply registered as one) why then would he have been arrested by the Gestapo? Obviously he wasn't and certainly no an "ally" of Japan. > Look for a book called "The Rape of Nanking" by Iris Chang, who is not > writing Chinese propaganda, since she is a US citizen, living in California. Iris Chang is indeed writing Chinese Propaganda because it fills her bank account. If it weren't her book would not have had errors that have been attacked by the apologists. > As for it being impossible for the Japanese army to have killed so many > in such a short time..........look at Rwanda , where more than 600,000 were > muredered in six weeks, and the "Interahamwe" did not even have guns, only > machetes and clubs. If you know anything about about the Chinese, its that they exaggerate any great numbers, be the the miles Mao and his men had to march inland, to how many gazillion chinese the evil Japanese killed in WWII. Thats why the actual figure for Nanking can range so widely from 300,000 (in a city with a population of 250,000 as some point out) down to 35,000. If is not impossible for the Japanese troops to have killed so many in so short a time, then it is equally not impossible that we are dealing with highly inaccurate exagerated numbers, made all the more diffucult because along with civilian victims there were a great number of Chines troops who had tossed their uniforms in favor of civilian attire. > It is the Japanese who are lying here, mate, refusing to accept the guily > for the baranarity they perpartreted across all of occupied China, but most > especially in Nanking Maybe yes, may no. Just don't be so damn sure. Its most probably a mix of both cause if you think the Japs are liars, Good f.cking grief, take a look at the Chinks. > > > > I think white colonist is the most brutal one i heard. People like > > columbus [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > in North and South America? > It's not even in the same league. That's so stupid. Nuke killed many people in few sec to few min lol. Or how stupid is killing few million people because conditional surrender included saving stupid emperor? > The Chinese claim the Japanese troops killed 300,000 at Nanking. > Anyone want to guess how many Native Americans have been killed > in North and South America? > It's not even in the same league. Most Native Americans died long before they came into contact with Europeans. They died from the diseases that the Europeans brought, to which they had no immunities. Once a European came ashore anywhere in North or South America, Native American trade routes, pretty much guaranteed that a wave of disease would spread ahead of them. It's one reason, a few thousand Conquistadors were able to overcome a native population estimated to be as high as 25,000,000. One wonders what would have happened had the Vikings had more contact with the Native Americans. Columbus might have arrived to a near empty continent. Or a continent in which the few survivors had grown immune to European diseases and had repopulated. >> The Chinese claim the Japanese troops killed 300,000 at Nanking. >> Anyone want to guess how many Native Americans have been killed [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >continent. Or a continent in which the few survivors had grown immune >to European diseases and had repopulated. Disease is neither racist, nor is it selective and in a small way, it worked both ways; after all, the Native Americans did give Europeans Syphilis, for which there is still no inoculation, unlike Small Pox. > >> The Chinese claim the Japanese troops killed 300,000 at Nanking. > >> Anyone want to guess how many Native Americans have been killed [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > worked both ways; after all, the Native Americans did give Europeans > Syphilis, for which there is still no inoculation, unlike Small Pox. Not forgetting tobacco, which kills vast amount of people every year and it smells bad also. :) mika |
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