Question about Iraqi insurgents
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John - 22 Jun 2004 19:26 GMT I'm trying to keep up with the developments in Iraq but I need some help.
I read that the purpose of the insurgent attacks is to disrupt the coaliton's efforts. Sway public opinion against the occupation, forcing the troops out of Iraq.
My question is ...then what?
Do they want a power grab? Or chaos? Or civil war? I'm trying to understand the "end game".
Thanks,
jb
Ty - 22 Jun 2004 21:30 GMT > I'm trying to keep up with the > developments in Iraq but I need some [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'm trying to understand > the "end game". The Baathists (most of whom are Sunnis) want to run the Coalition off and intimidate the other 80% of Iraqis into letting the Baathists run things again.
Al Queda wants to return the world to the good old days of the 7th century.
The Shiites can't make up their minds, but seem to be willing to let the coalition stomp a few of their loonier mullahs.
The Kurds want their own state or failing that, an autonomous region.
The French want to make money and don't care what they have to do to make it.
The Western press wants ratings and bad news always gets more attention than good news.
The problem is that the Baathist and Al Queda insurgents cannot hope to compete with Coalition troops in a straight up fight. Even those lunatics have figured out that this is a messy form of suicide. This leaves them with only terrorism and the occasional ambush. The problem is that these tactics tend to kill far more Iraqis than non-Iraqis. Eventually, I believe the Iraqis will tire of it. The same thing happened to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt a few decades ago.
The insurgents are also motivated to try to disrupt Iraq's infrastructure (lest people realize that things are better now that Saddam's gone). There are 3 problems with this. First, they lack the capacity to do really serious damage (and the Coalition will get better at its countermeasures). Second, the Iraqi people probably enjoy things like electricity and will probably get tired of people trying to blow the country up. Finally, things were so rotten under Saddam that they're already better now. So the insurgents are trying to close the barn door after the horses have escaped.
--Ty
John - 23 Jun 2004 06:36 GMT >> I'm trying to keep up with the >> developments in Iraq but I need some [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > --Ty thanks Ty,
very helpful and insightful answer. it's MUCH more than I've received from CNN, MSNBC or Fox.
john
Ty - 23 Jun 2004 12:15 GMT > > The Baathists (most of whom are Sunnis) want to run the Coalition off > > and intimidate the other 80% of Iraqis into letting the Baathists run [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > it's MUCH more than I've received from > CNN, MSNBC or Fox. Better watch out. Thanking me can get you in trouble here <grin>.
Actually, it's not just media bias (IMHO) that prevents accurate reporting from Iraq. Rather, it's several factors:
1. Bad news sells. It's just that simple and was the case long before nearly every journalist was a lefty.
2. The situation is complex. Pretty hard to get this stuff into a 30 second sound bite -- and even harder to keep it from being dull.
3. False Analogies. The powers that be in the US media world mostly grew up in during Vietnam. Their misinterpretation of that war (i.e., that it proves all insurgencies are invicible) colors their misinterpretations of this war. As I have noted in past posts, there are profound differences between the two wars that these folks are ignoring.
4. Geography. The insurgency is largely confined to a small area of Iraq -- the "Sunni Traingle" -- and isolated Shite spots in the south (like Fallujah). Unfortunately, most of the journalists are in Bahgdad, which is in the heart of the Sunni Triangle. And some things *are* worse in *Bahgdad* than before the war, because Baghdad got dibs on everything. Power generation is an example. The US Army Corps of Engineers estimates that Iraq had a power generating capability of about 3300 MW (press reports said it was around 4000 MW, but this appears to be from a prewar estimate, rather than an "on the ground" analysis like the Corp's report). Bahgdad got priority on power allocation, so most areas in Bahgdad (other than Shiite neighborhoods) had power all the time. Currently, Iraq has about 4900 MW (the goal is 6000 by the end of the month), but this is distributed evenly throughout the country. Result is that everyone loses about 8 hours of power per day. So while the country as a whole is getting more power, Bahgdad is getting less. And since the journalists are mostly in Bahgdad, all they hear is how bad things are.
Simlarly, 80% of the country is relatively quiet. Yet the journalists are mostly in the 20% where the attacks mostly occur.
5. Politics. Let's face it -- good news from Iraq is good news for Bush. So are journalists (who, according to polls, self-identify as liberal far more than the general population) going to be willing to trumpet good news and help Bush out? Especially if they have to take a hot 3 hour ride on a dirt track to some Iraqi backwater to find the good news?
6. Poor Media Relations. The Coalition has, IMHO, underestimated the need for positive media relations, especially in the face of a hostile US and UK press. They could do a far better job than they are explaining the successes. Still, they issue regular press releases that anyone can read: http://www.cpa-iraq.org/ (note, by the way, the forthright reporting on the Abu Ghreib situation).
7. CYA. Far too many "objective" journalists (and lefties in general) predicted nothing but doom and failure in Iraq before the war. A constant stream of good news would make them look like the idiots that they are. Query how willing they are to go out of their way to make themselves look stupid...
8. Demonization. While many countries in the Middle East and Europe were glad to see Saddam go, they did not like seeing it done with American and British troops. As a result, the Arab and European media demonize anything American troops do in Iraq, and feed this biased coverage back to Iraqis (and many Europeans) who accept it as fact. In the long run, I think that Iraqis will look back on those al Jazeera screeds and say, "how could anyone believe such foolishness?" But it's 2004, not 2014, and most Iraqis probably do believe that American troops are spending most of their time committing atrocities and doing nothing to protect Iraqis from terrorists and criminals.
This is all exacerbated by the Arab cultural tendency to blame everything on someone else and to believe the most lurid conspiracy theories (as long as they absolve Arabs of any blame for their own motley situation). This is a phenomenon that Westerners have little appreciation of, unless they've experienced it. I've handled business transactions in the Middle East and have seen it up close. In 1998, a well-educated Quatari businessman insisted to me that Saddam was a CIA operative and invaded Kuwait on the CIA's orders. Trying hard to conceal my look of incredulity, I asked why we would want him to invade Kuwait. "So that the Jewish arms dealers can sell more weapons." Of course -- it's always those darned Jews. <sigh> What made this such a chilling experience was that this was a member of the upper class and a "mover and shaker". Yet he clearly believed this drivel. As did his associates who all nodded approvingly as he related the "facts". I could relate many other conversations like this, but I think you get my point.
9. Say It Enough and a Lie Can Become The Truth. Lefties motivated by an anti-US bias have wailed, carped and caterwauled that we will fail since the afternoon of 9-11-01. Despite clear and overwhelming evidence to the contrary, they repeat the same tired jeremiads ad nauseum ad infinitum. This has had some effect in making casual listeners uneasy about the situation. Yet, these witless hysterics can't actually seem to produce much *evidence* to support their contention that we are somehow "losing". Nor can they articulate any specific, credible alternatives. But casual listeners don't know that.
Anyhow, these are some of the reasons that I think that the reporting from Iraq will be skewed to the negative for some time to come.
--Ty
Bill - 23 Jun 2004 16:20 GMT >>>The Baathists (most of whom are Sunnis) want to run the Coalition off >>>and intimidate the other 80% of Iraqis into letting the Baathists run >>>things again.
> 1. Bad news sells. It's just that simple and was the case long before nearly > every journalist was a lefty. I normally disagree with everything you post Ty but your summary of what is wrong in Iraq and your explanation that followed are very well thought out. When you are not makeing excuses or defending Bush, you make a lot of sense. I wish you were more of a conservative and less of a Republican.
Ty - 23 Jun 2004 17:39 GMT > >>>The Baathists (most of whom are Sunnis) want to run the Coalition off > >>>and intimidate the other 80% of Iraqis into letting the Baathists run [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > what is wrong in Iraq and your explanation that followed are very well > thought out. Thanks.
> When you are not makeing excuses or defending Bush, you > make a lot of sense. I wish you were more of a conservative and less > of a Republican. <shrug> I is who I is...
But believe it or not, I try to call things as I see them. Sadly, that does mean that I must occassionally say nice things about journalists :-)
Like everyone, I have my biases and blindspots. However, I am willing to at least listen to any contra argument so long as it is backed up with evidence and is logical. My problem with a lot of the Bush-bashing is that it is devoid of either facts or logic. I also think that a more reasoned discourse should include *plausible* alternatives. I agree with the great Sam Rayburn who said "any jackass can kick down a barn door, but it takes a carpenter to build one."
Thus, I have little patience with the empty bitching that seems to characterize much of the debate.
I'd also point out that I haven't exactly bent over backwards defending Bush.
I don't consider him the greatest leader of all time, but I do consider it very likely that he's better suited for the job than Gore or Kerry. As an adult, I'm quite comfortable choosing from less than optimum alternatives.
Now, I do generally agree with his conduct of the Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns. Does anyone even seriously dispute that we should have taken out the Taliban? As for Iraq, well, IMHO there were simply too many good reasons -- any one of which was sufficient IMHO -- to remove Saddam and no good reasons to leave him in power.
Of course, mistakes have been made, but mistakes are *always* made in wartime.
But Bush did nothing that seemed outrageous to me, especially when considering the information available at the time.
Nor did I find much logic in the arguments -- to the extent that they constituted "arguments" rather than bald conclusory assertions -- against removing Saddam. Indeed, many of the same folks who opposed his removal had previously characterized George H.W. Bush's failure to take him out as a "failure" -- despite the fact that GHW Bush was acting "multilaterally" and doing what our purported friends in France, Saudi Arabia, etc., wanted. In other words, acting the way the antiwar people claimed to want us to act. <scratches head> In addition, there was the offputting hypocrisy of people who had no problem with Clinton sending troops all over the place, without French permission. Or the ludricrous absurdity of seeing Marxist groups posture as peaceniks.
And since everyone thought Saddam had WMDs -- including many of the same lefties who now whine about the lack of WMDs -- I see no logic in bashing Bush for an intelligence failure that was shared by the Clinton administration. Nor do I have much patience with the whining of hypocrites who claim Bush "lied" -- while absolving numerous lefties who just as stridently assured us that Saddam had WMDs.
Fair is fair. If Bush "lied" then so did the Clintons, Kennedy, Gore, Kerry et. al. Of course, I seem to be able to understand the difference between being incorrect and being a liar...
I would have been firmer with our purported allies in France and Saudi Arabia. I would have exposed the degree of French and Russian duplicity by making an issue of their cushy oil deals with Saddam. Of course, that's why I'm not a diplomat.
I probably would have delayed the war in Iraq until VII Corps (which has most of the heavy armored striking force in the US Army) was in theater. Still, it's hard to argue with an advance that outpaced the Germans at the start of Operation Barbarossa and Patton's forces in Operation Cobra. And as an amateur military strategist, I tend to defer to the professionals who were advising the administration. I am also reluctant to accept bald claims made by interested parties with axes to grind. To paraphrase Joe Friday, I want the facts.
I also think that the administration underestimated the public relations problems with an Iraqi insurgency -- and still does. And I think that they also underestimated the likely extent of the insurgency. Personally, I think that this was caused by the fact that the military missed an implication of such a rapid advance -- Iraqi units were bypassed rather than being annihilated. Some of these guys then later became insurgents.
Of course, a rapid advance saved American lives and stymies the "Quagmire" characterization that the mainstream press desparately wanted to apply to Iraq. I recall the depressing and defeatist headlines that appeared mere days before we took Baghdad... Anyhow, who's to say that slowing the advance wouldn't have cost far more lives than the insurgency has?
That said, the opponents of the war were far more outrageous in their lurid predictions of doom -- remember the confident predictions of Baghdad becoming like Stalingrad? Thus, I am reluctant to give their current unsupported assertions much credence. This is especially so when they baldly claim -- with no evidence -- that Iraq has somehow weakened the war on terror. Sorry, but I don't have a hard time imagining that the nation that invented the all you can eat buffet can do two things at once.
Finally, I am seriously whipped by the witless hysteria that characterizes the comparisons of Iraq to Vietnam. In the worse year of Vietnam, some 16,000 Americans died. Less than 1000 Americans have died in Iraq. On this basis alone, it is disrespectful and insulting to equate the 2 wars. In addition, I have identified numerous factors in past posts that distinguish Iraq from Vietnam.
Sooo. The bottom line is that I think that Bush is doing okay. Not perfectly, but okay.
--Ty
John Gilmer - 25 Jun 2004 14:52 GMT > 3. False Analogies. The powers that be in the US media world mostly grew up > in during Vietnam. Their misinterpretation of that war (i.e., that it proves > all insurgencies are invicible) colors their misinterpretations of this war. Great point.
There is another part of the VN/Iraq comparison that is disturnbing to those on the left. Insofar as they draw a parallel between Iraq and VN and we are successful in Iraq it also is being demonstrated that we could have "won" in VN.
The semi-"official" view of the left-of-center folks is that: 1) nothing the US would have done could have "won" the VN War or could gotten Castro out of Cuber; 2) nothing the US actually DID was responsbible for the fall of the USSR and the re-unification of Germany.
The "world view" of the LEFT absolutely REQUIRES that the US suffer a great defeat in Iraq. The RIGHT just doesn't feel as stronly about Iraq and this means, of course, that the LEFT appears to have won the debate.
Of course, the fun thing is that if "W" is defeated this November, the odds are VERY strong the Kerry will, in anything, ESCALATE. Kerry might even reinstate the DRAFT.
Folks with a sense of humor will try to pull out the Art Buchwald column he wrote after LBJ was elected Presdent. ("They told me that if I voted for Goldwater we would be sending more troops to VN; I voted for him and sure enough, we are sending more troops to VN>)
> As I have noted in past posts, there are profound differences between the > two wars that these folks are ignoring. Nope. There are many lessons learned in VN (some took 5 years and were leaned too late) that can and should be applied to Iraq. One problem with the "W" administration is that very few of the "inner circle" served there.
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