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Question about Iraqi insurgents

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John - 22 Jun 2004 19:26 GMT
I'm trying to keep up with the
developments in Iraq but I need some
help.

I read that the purpose of the insurgent
attacks is to disrupt the coaliton's
efforts. Sway public opinion against
the occupation, forcing the troops
out of Iraq.

My question is ...then what?

Do they want a power grab?
Or chaos? Or civil war?
I'm trying to understand
the "end game".

Thanks,

jb
Ty - 22 Jun 2004 21:30 GMT
> I'm trying to keep up with the
> developments in Iraq but I need some
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I'm trying to understand
> the "end game".

The Baathists (most of whom are Sunnis) want to run the Coalition off and
intimidate the other 80% of Iraqis into letting the Baathists run things
again.

Al Queda wants to return the world to the good old days of the 7th century.

The Shiites can't make up their minds, but seem to be willing to let the
coalition stomp a few of their loonier mullahs.

The Kurds want their own state or failing that, an autonomous region.

The French want to make money and don't care what they have to do to make
it.

The Western press wants ratings and bad news always gets more attention than
good news.

The problem is that the Baathist and Al Queda insurgents cannot hope to
compete with Coalition troops in a straight up fight. Even those lunatics
have figured out that this is a messy form of suicide. This leaves them with
only terrorism and the occasional ambush. The problem is that these tactics
tend to kill far more Iraqis than non-Iraqis. Eventually, I believe the
Iraqis will tire of it. The same thing happened to the Muslim Brotherhood in
Egypt a few decades ago.

The insurgents are also motivated to try to disrupt Iraq's infrastructure
(lest people realize that things are better now that Saddam's gone). There
are 3 problems with this. First, they lack the capacity to do really serious
damage (and the Coalition will get better at its countermeasures). Second,
the Iraqi people probably enjoy things like electricity and will probably
get tired of people trying to blow the country up. Finally, things were so
rotten under Saddam that they're already better now. So the insurgents are
trying to close the barn door after the horses have escaped.

--Ty
John - 23 Jun 2004 06:36 GMT
>> I'm trying to keep up with the
>> developments in Iraq but I need some
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> --Ty

thanks Ty,

very helpful and insightful answer.
it's MUCH more than I've received from
CNN, MSNBC or Fox.

john
Ty - 23 Jun 2004 12:15 GMT
> > The Baathists (most of whom are Sunnis) want to run the Coalition off
> > and intimidate the other 80% of Iraqis into letting the Baathists run
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> it's MUCH more than I've received from
> CNN, MSNBC or Fox.

Better watch out. Thanking me can get you in trouble here <grin>.

Actually, it's not just media bias (IMHO) that prevents accurate reporting
from Iraq. Rather, it's several factors:

1. Bad news sells. It's just that simple and was the case long before nearly
every journalist was a lefty.

2. The situation is complex. Pretty hard to get this stuff into a 30 second
sound bite -- and even harder to keep it from being dull.

3. False Analogies. The powers that be in the US media world mostly grew up
in during Vietnam. Their misinterpretation of that war (i.e., that it proves
all insurgencies are invicible) colors their misinterpretations of this war.
As I have noted in past posts, there are profound differences between the
two wars that these folks are ignoring.

4. Geography. The insurgency is largely confined to a small area of Iraq --
the "Sunni Traingle" -- and isolated Shite spots in the south (like
Fallujah). Unfortunately, most of the journalists are in Bahgdad, which is
in the heart of the Sunni Triangle. And some things *are* worse in *Bahgdad*
than before the war, because Baghdad got dibs on everything. Power
generation is an example. The US Army Corps of Engineers estimates that Iraq
had a power generating capability of about 3300 MW (press reports said it
was around 4000 MW, but this appears to be from a prewar estimate, rather
than an "on the ground" analysis like the Corp's report). Bahgdad got
priority on power allocation, so most areas in Bahgdad (other than Shiite
neighborhoods) had power all the time. Currently, Iraq has about 4900 MW
(the goal is 6000 by the end of the month), but this is distributed evenly
throughout the country. Result is that everyone loses about 8 hours of power
per day. So while the country as a whole is getting more power, Bahgdad is
getting less. And since the journalists are mostly in Bahgdad, all they hear
is how bad things are.

Simlarly, 80% of the country is relatively quiet. Yet the journalists are
mostly in the 20% where the attacks mostly occur.

5. Politics. Let's face it -- good news from Iraq is good news for Bush. So
are journalists (who, according to polls, self-identify as liberal far more
than the general population) going to be willing to trumpet good news and
help Bush out? Especially if they have to take a hot 3 hour ride on a dirt
track to some Iraqi backwater to find the good news?

6. Poor Media Relations. The Coalition has, IMHO, underestimated the need
for positive media relations, especially in the face of a hostile US and UK
press. They could do a far better job than they are explaining the
successes. Still, they issue regular press releases that anyone can read:
http://www.cpa-iraq.org/  (note, by the way, the forthright reporting on the
Abu Ghreib situation).

7. CYA. Far too many "objective" journalists (and lefties in general)
predicted nothing but doom and failure in Iraq before the war. A constant
stream of good news would make them look like the idiots that they are.
Query how willing they are to go out of their way to make themselves look
stupid...

8. Demonization. While many countries in the Middle East and Europe were
glad to see Saddam go, they did not like seeing it done with American and
British troops. As a result, the Arab and European media demonize anything
American troops do in Iraq, and feed this biased coverage back to Iraqis
(and many Europeans) who accept it as fact. In the long run, I think that
Iraqis will look back on those al Jazeera screeds and say, "how could anyone
believe such foolishness?" But it's 2004, not 2014, and most Iraqis probably
do believe that American troops are spending most of their time committing
atrocities and doing nothing to protect Iraqis from terrorists and
criminals.

   This is all exacerbated by the Arab cultural tendency to blame
everything on someone else and to believe the most lurid conspiracy theories
(as long as they absolve Arabs of any blame for their own motley situation).
This is a phenomenon that Westerners have little appreciation of, unless
they've experienced it. I've handled business transactions in the Middle
East and have seen it up close. In 1998, a well-educated Quatari businessman
insisted to me that Saddam was a CIA operative and invaded Kuwait on the
CIA's orders. Trying hard to conceal my look of incredulity, I asked why we
would want him to invade Kuwait. "So that the Jewish arms dealers can sell
more weapons." Of course -- it's always those darned Jews. <sigh> What made
this such a chilling experience was that this was a member of the upper
class and a "mover and shaker". Yet he clearly believed this drivel. As did
his associates who all nodded approvingly as he related the "facts". I could
relate many other conversations like this, but I think you get my point.

9. Say It Enough and a Lie Can Become The Truth. Lefties motivated by an
anti-US bias have wailed, carped and caterwauled that we will fail since the
afternoon of 9-11-01. Despite clear and overwhelming evidence to the
contrary, they repeat the same tired jeremiads ad nauseum ad infinitum. This
has had some effect in making casual listeners uneasy about the situation.
Yet, these witless hysterics can't actually seem to produce much *evidence*
to support their contention that we are somehow "losing". Nor can they
articulate any specific, credible alternatives. But casual listeners don't
know that.

Anyhow, these are some of the reasons that I think that the reporting from
Iraq will be skewed to the negative for some time to come.

--Ty
Bill - 23 Jun 2004 16:20 GMT
>>>The Baathists (most of whom are Sunnis) want to run the Coalition off
>>>and intimidate the other 80% of Iraqis into letting the Baathists run
>>>things again.

> 1. Bad news sells. It's just that simple and was the case long before nearly
> every journalist was a lefty.

I normally disagree with everything you post Ty but your summary of
what is wrong in Iraq and your explanation that followed are very well
thought out.  When you are not makeing excuses or defending Bush, you
make a lot of sense. I wish you were more of a conservative and less
of a Republican.
Ty - 23 Jun 2004 17:39 GMT
> >>>The Baathists (most of whom are Sunnis) want to run the Coalition off
> >>>and intimidate the other 80% of Iraqis into letting the Baathists run
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> what is wrong in Iraq and your explanation that followed are very well
> thought out.

Thanks.

> When you are not makeing excuses or defending Bush, you
> make a lot of sense. I wish you were more of a conservative and less
> of a Republican.

<shrug> I is who I is...

But believe it or not, I try to call things as I see them. Sadly, that does
mean that I must occassionally say nice things about journalists :-)

Like everyone, I have my biases and blindspots. However, I am willing to at
least listen to any contra argument so long as it is backed up with evidence
and is logical. My problem with a lot of the Bush-bashing is that it is
devoid of either facts or logic. I also think that a more reasoned discourse
should include *plausible* alternatives. I agree with the great Sam Rayburn
who said "any jackass can kick down a barn door, but it takes a carpenter to
build one."

Thus, I have little patience with the empty bitching that seems to
characterize much of the debate.

I'd also point out that I haven't exactly bent over backwards defending
Bush.

I don't consider him the greatest leader of all time, but I do consider it
very likely that he's better suited for the job than Gore or Kerry. As an
adult, I'm quite comfortable choosing from less than optimum alternatives.

Now, I do generally agree with his conduct of the Afghanistan and Iraq
campaigns. Does anyone even seriously dispute that we should have taken out
the Taliban? As for Iraq, well, IMHO there were simply too many good
reasons -- any one of which was sufficient IMHO -- to remove Saddam and no
good reasons to leave him in power.

Of course, mistakes have been made, but mistakes are *always* made in
wartime.

But Bush did nothing that seemed outrageous to me, especially when
considering the information available at the time.

Nor did I find much logic in the arguments -- to the extent that they
constituted "arguments" rather than bald conclusory assertions -- against
removing Saddam. Indeed, many of the same folks who opposed his removal had
previously characterized George H.W. Bush's failure to take him out as a
"failure" -- despite the fact that GHW Bush was acting "multilaterally" and
doing what our purported friends in France, Saudi Arabia, etc., wanted. In
other words, acting the way the antiwar people claimed to want us to act.
<scratches head> In addition, there was the offputting hypocrisy of people
who had no problem with Clinton sending troops all over the place, without
French permission. Or the ludricrous absurdity of seeing Marxist groups
posture as peaceniks.

And since everyone thought Saddam had WMDs -- including many of the same
lefties who now whine about the lack of WMDs -- I see no logic in bashing
Bush for an intelligence failure that was shared by the Clinton
administration. Nor do I have much patience with the whining of hypocrites
who claim Bush "lied" -- while absolving numerous lefties who just as
stridently assured us that Saddam had WMDs.

Fair is fair. If Bush "lied" then so did the Clintons, Kennedy, Gore, Kerry
et. al. Of course, I seem to be able to understand the difference between
being incorrect and being a liar...

I would have been firmer with our purported allies in France and Saudi
Arabia. I would have exposed the degree of French and Russian duplicity by
making an issue of their cushy oil deals with Saddam. Of course, that's why
I'm not a diplomat.

I probably would have delayed the war in Iraq until VII Corps (which has
most of the heavy armored striking force in the US Army) was in theater.
Still, it's hard to argue with an advance that outpaced the Germans at the
start of Operation Barbarossa and Patton's forces in Operation Cobra. And as
an amateur military strategist, I tend to defer to the professionals who
were advising the administration. I am also reluctant to accept bald claims
made by interested parties with axes to grind. To paraphrase Joe Friday, I
want the facts.

I also think that the administration underestimated the public relations
problems with an Iraqi insurgency -- and still does. And I think that they
also underestimated the likely extent of the insurgency. Personally, I think
that this was caused by the fact that the military missed an implication of
such a rapid advance -- Iraqi units were bypassed rather than being
annihilated. Some of these guys then later became insurgents.

Of course, a rapid advance saved American lives and stymies the "Quagmire"
characterization that the mainstream press desparately wanted to apply to
Iraq. I recall the depressing and defeatist headlines that appeared mere
days before we took Baghdad... Anyhow, who's to say that slowing the advance
wouldn't have cost far more lives than the insurgency has?

That said, the opponents of the war were far more outrageous in their lurid
predictions of doom -- remember the confident predictions of Baghdad
becoming like Stalingrad? Thus, I am reluctant to give their current
unsupported assertions much credence. This is especially so when they baldly
claim -- with no evidence -- that Iraq has somehow weakened the war on
terror. Sorry, but I don't have a hard time imagining that the nation that
invented the all you can eat buffet can do two things at once.

Finally, I am seriously whipped by the witless hysteria that characterizes
the comparisons of Iraq to Vietnam. In the worse year of Vietnam, some
16,000 Americans died. Less than 1000 Americans have died in Iraq. On this
basis alone, it is disrespectful and insulting to equate the 2 wars. In
addition, I have identified numerous factors in past posts that distinguish
Iraq from Vietnam.

Sooo. The bottom line is that I think that Bush is doing okay. Not
perfectly, but okay.

--Ty
John Gilmer - 25 Jun 2004 14:52 GMT
> 3. False Analogies. The powers that be in the US media world mostly grew up
> in during Vietnam. Their misinterpretation of that war (i.e., that it proves
> all insurgencies are invicible) colors their misinterpretations of this war.

Great point.

There is another part of the VN/Iraq comparison that is disturnbing to those
on the left.   Insofar as they draw a parallel between Iraq and VN and we
are successful in Iraq it also is being demonstrated that we could have
"won" in VN.

The semi-"official" view of the left-of-center folks is that:  1)  nothing
the US would have done could have "won" the VN War or could gotten Castro
out of Cuber; 2) nothing the US actually DID was responsbible for the fall
of the USSR and the re-unification of Germany.

The "world view" of the LEFT absolutely REQUIRES that the US suffer a great
defeat in Iraq.   The RIGHT just doesn't feel as stronly about Iraq and this
means, of course, that the LEFT appears to have won the debate.

Of course, the fun thing is that if "W" is defeated this November, the odds
are VERY strong the Kerry will, in anything, ESCALATE.    Kerry might even
reinstate the DRAFT.

Folks with a sense of humor will try to pull out the Art Buchwald column he
wrote after LBJ was elected Presdent.   ("They told me that if I voted for
Goldwater we would be sending more troops to VN; I voted for him and sure
enough, we are sending more troops to VN>)

> As I have noted in past posts, there are profound differences between the
> two wars that these folks are ignoring.

Nope.   There are many lessons learned in VN (some took 5 years and were
leaned too late) that can and should be applied to Iraq.     One problem
with the "W" administration is that very few of the "inner circle" served
there.
 
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