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History Forum / General / General Topics / June 2005THANK YOU AMERICA FOR YOUR CRASS PRESIDENT
Don't get me wrong, I love America. I love your movies, I love your heroes, I love your music, I love jazz, I love your cities, I love your vigour and your honesty... I don't love your chocolate. A little bland - like as if it melted and then got hard again. Come to Europe and have a real bite! Your President, however...where did you get him? They say over here he's not clever. I don't agree with that. I reckon he must be quite a capable guy to get where he got. I'd say he's quite personable too.So maybe an allround alright sort of guy. I'm trying to be nice before I really shaft the guy. And I actually agree with him about Irag and Turkey. I want democracy in that part of the world too. Turkey is a good bridge to the Middle East. Saddam should have been shifted a long time ago. I don't agree with him about Israel. It is absurd that one nation should be permitted to inflict ongoing injustice on another. It is absurd that the policies of this one nation should treaten the stability of the entire region - and indeed of the entire world. America must wake up and see this. Maybe Clinton did, maybe he tried hardfer than most. But..our friend! He is so crass. He has no vision of a human future. Oh, I know he has something you call "family values" - and indeed I have family values myself. But too often such beliefs sit like clingfilm over the mind, protecting it from infection from anything as threatening as a thought. Your President, the most powerful man in the world by a mile, has no sense of the world. He has no sense of history. He has no care for ecology. He has no care for dignity. He has no care for justice. He has no care for ordinary human beings living a decent life. He is insulated from all these concerns. It is - frankly - terrifying that such a great nation could produce such a crass leader. America is a great nation. Americans should begin to see that they have a duty - to themselves, first, but ultimately to all humankind - to produce leaders who are capable of rising to the challemges of our age. A particular response to some of these challenges is outlined in my web-site www.humanisation.org, You might like to have a look at same. Thank you, America. Joseph H www.humanisation.org > I don't agree with him about Israel. It is absurd that one nation > should be permitted to inflict ongoing injustice on another. "Ongoing justice," in this case, meaning that they insist on being allowed to keep breathing. The *nerve* of those Jooz! Hint: If the Palestinians stop murdering Israeli civilians, the Israelis will stop retaliating against the people who plan and order those murders. It's so simple -- don't you wonder why they refuse to do it? >> I don't agree with him about Israel. It is absurd that one nation >> should be permitted to inflict ongoing injustice on another. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It's so simple -- don't you wonder why they refuse to do it? The only people wondering why they refuse to do that are the ones who mistakenly think it is just that simple. > > Hint: If the Palestinians stop murdering Israeli civilians, the > > Israelis will stop retaliating against the people who plan and order [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The only people wondering why they refuse to do that are the ones who > mistakenly think it is just that simple. Which would be few, since it's not a mistake; it really *is* that simple. > > > Hint: If the Palestinians stop murdering Israeli civilians, the > > > Israelis will stop retaliating against the people who plan and order [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Which would be few, since it's not a mistake; it really *is* that > simple. If you think its OK for a nation to deside, right we've stolen everything we want here now if only the survivors would stop complaining about it and be nice to us we'd permit them to live in peace on the bits of their country we don't want, atleast untill we want some more. Well give how the US treated its natives I'm not surprised an American would think thats the proper way of doing business. > > > > Hint: If the Palestinians stop murdering Israeli civilians, the > > > > Israelis will stop retaliating against the people who plan and order [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > its natives I'm not surprised an American would think thats the proper way > of doing business. At some point people need to realize that ya flipping lost the war of '48, and all the subsiquent wars, get a life and move on. There is such a thing as the political reality of the battlefield, it has been nearly 60 years since Isreal won the '48 war. When are people going to accept the fact they lost? I didn't vote for that a.shole and won't this time > I didn't vote for that a.shole and won't this time Another thoughtful, reasoned and elegant critique from the left. -- Ty > Don't get me wrong, I love America. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Your President, however...where did you get him? He was hand-picked by the Republican Party money-men! On 12 Oct. 2004, 9-11PM EDT, the PBS program "Frontline" examined the presidential candidates George W. Bush and John F. Kerry. One of the fascinating revelations was made by George Schultz, who had served as Secretary of State under Ronald Reagan. In April 1998, while W was visiting California, Schultz asked him: "Why don't you come over to my house, and I'll gather the usual suspects [one of them being Condoleezza Rice] to discuss policy issues." Schultz and the others were so impressed by W that they urged him to run for president because, as Schultz said: "It seems to me that you have a good seat-ofthepants for it." According to the program's narrator: "By the end of 1998, the money was rolling in." If I remember correctly, more than $70 million was raised by the time W announced his candidacy. Domenico Rosa > I don't agree with him about Israel. It is absurd that one nation > should be permitted to inflict ongoing injustice on another. Uh huh. I wonder if you'd be shedding any tears if the Arabs had been able to carry through with their oft-repeated goal of annihilating Israel. Indeed, check out the map of "Free Palestine" on numerous Palestinian websites -- you'll note that it encompasses all of Israel as well. It is also rather telling that Israeli casualties in the intifada are mostly older men, women and children, while most Palestinian casualties are young men. And when the Israelis, rather sensibly, put up a barrier to keep murderous terrorists from preying on women and children, you folks whine and accuse them of war crimes. For that matter, where is your outrage at the *Arab* nations who keep their Palestinian brothers in squalid concentration camps, fund the hopelessly corrupt and inept Arafat, and constantly encourage the lunatic proportion of the Palestinian population to commit suicide by attacking Israelis? Yes the Arab world is willing to fight the Jews to the very last Palestinian. And Old Europe appears all too willing to go along... No outrage? If these Arabs -- or you folks -- gave a tinker's dam about the Palestinians, you'd demand that the Arab nations resettle the Palestinians. As Israel did for the hundreds of thousands of Jews evicted from Arab nations in 1948. Indeed, where is your outrage at the fact that the Arab world is a cesspool of self-inflicted human misery, lacking the most basic freedoms that folks like you take for granted: women's rights; right to due process; free speech; consensual secular governance; religious tolerance; etc.? The whole Arab world is a cesspool of misery for 200 million Arabs, yet you bitch and whine about the only Western democracy in the region -- that only has 6 million people. Muslim Israelis enjoy freedoms and liberty that *no* Jew would dream of in Saudi Arabia or Iran. Yet you continue to bitch about the jews. Curious, that. Me, I'll back the only Western democracy in the region. At least they can fight. > that the policies of this one nation should treaten the > stability of the entire region - and indeed of the entire world. > America must wake up and see this. Maybe Clinton did, maybe he tried > hardfer than most. Clinton's approach to solving the Palestinian problem was as feckless and slipshod as every other foreign policy initiative he undertook. It was dead on arrival and Clinton was too gullible to know it. Or, being desparate for some legacy (other than a stained blue dress), he simply didn't care that it would likely fail. > But..our friend! He is so crass. He has no vision of a human future. Apparently *your* vision of a human future would entail the destruction of the only western democracy in the Middle East at the hands of corrupt autocrats. I don't think I want to see the rest of your purported "vision". You aren't from the same Old Europe that gleefully assisted Nazis in rounding up Jews 60+ years ago, are you? > Oh, I know he has something you call "family values" - and indeed I > have family values myself. But too often such beliefs sit like > clingfilm over the mind, protecting it from infection from anything as > threatening as a thought. People in glass houses shouldn't fire bazookas. <snip of conclusory statements about Bush> Perhaps you'd prefer for us to have someone like Mr.Chirac -- or is it Ch-Iraq? He and his poppinjay foreign minister DeVillepan (who is a man) embraced one of the greatest murderers of Muslims in the 20th century. It also appears that they skimmed some serious kickbacks from the hopelessly corrupt UN and its "oil for food" scam. Ole Jacques even thought it was a very good idea to sell Saddam nuclear technology in the early 80s. The *Israelis* -- who flattened that facility before it could start turning out weapons grade fissile materian -- did us all a favor, don't you think? Oh yeah, I like being lectured by folks like you... --Ty Joseph H replies. > Cool your jets, Ty (and Jeff). I support and recognise the existence of Israel. I uitterly support democracy in that area ( I did say I support Bush's efforts in Iraq - though I fear for them). I detest the corruptiuon and endemic injustice throughout the Arab world.I would suggest - respectfully - that the ongoing policies of Israel foster that injustice. Your general tone, Ty, by the way, is disgraceful. Because I seek justice and an - eventually inevitable - reconciliation in that part of the world I am deemed to be ...Nazi etc etc. Read my web-site and open your eyes. Joseph H www.humanisation.org > Joseph H replies. > > > Cool your jets, Ty (and Jeff). I support and recognise the existence of Israel. I uitterly support democracy in that area ( I did say I support Bush's efforts in Iraq - though I fear for them). I detest the corruptiuon and endemic injustice throughout the Arab world.I would suggest - respectfully - that the ongoing policies of Israel foster that injustice. Perhaps you should define "injustice" for us. Second, I would like to see some kind of apportionment of the responsibility for "injustice" in the Middle East. It seems absurd to me to conclude that less than 6 million Israelis are somehow significantly responsible for the miserable lot of hundreds of millions of Arabs... > Your general tone, Ty, by the way, is disgraceful. Because I seek > justice and an - eventually inevitable - reconciliation in that part > of the world I am deemed to be ...Nazi etc etc. Read my web-site and > open your eyes. Uh, right. I saw nothing in your original post to support your contention that you "support" Israel. It is telling that Jeff and I -- who historically agree on almost nothing -- came to similar conclusions about you. I also note that you answered none of the questions that I posed to you. However, in the spirit of open enquiry, I'll repeat them: I wonder if you'd be shedding any tears if the Arabs had been able to carry through with their oft-repeated goal of annihilating Israel? Indeed, check out the map of "Free Palestine" on numerous Palestinian websites -- you'll note that it encompasses all of Israel as well. [Do you have any comment on this point?] It is also rather telling that Israeli casualties in the intifada are mostly older men, women and children, while most Palestinian casualties are young men. And when the Israelis, rather sensibly, put up a barrier to keep murderous terrorists from preying on women and children, you folks whine and accuse them of war crimes. [Comment?] For that matter, where is your outrage at the *Arab* nations who keep their Palestinian brothers in squalid concentration camps, fund the hopelessly corrupt and inept Arafat, and constantly encourage the lunatic proportion of the Palestinian population to commit suicide by attacking Israelis? Yes the Arab world is willing to fight the Jews to the very last Palestinian. And Old Europe appears all too willing to go along... No outrage? If these Arabs -- or you folks -- gave a tinker's dam about the Palestinians, you'd demand that the Arab nations resettle the Palestinians. As Israel did for the hundreds of thousands of Jews evicted from Arab nations in 1948. [Comment?] [I also note that Old Europe strongly supports the alleged "right of return" of Palestinians (who are mostly decendants of Palestinians who chose to leave Israel -- not expelled -- in 1948). Yet curiously, Old Europe has no enthusiasm for the "right of return" of Germans who were forcibly relocated in 1945-46. Hypocrisy?] Indeed, where is your outrage at the fact that the Arab world is a cesspool of self-inflicted human misery, lacking the most basic freedoms that folks like you take for granted: women's rights; right to due process; free speech; consensual secular governance; religious tolerance; etc.? Muslim Israelis enjoy freedoms and liberty that *no* Jew would dream of in Saudi Arabia or Iran. Yet you continue to bitch about the jews. Curious, that. [Comment?] Perhaps you'd prefer for us to have someone like Mr.Chirac -- or is it Ch-Iraq? He and his poppinjay foreign minister DeVillepan (who is a man) embraced one of the greatest murderers of Muslims in the 20th century. It also appears that they skimmed some serious kickbacks from the hopelessly corrupt UN and its "oil for food" scam. Ole Jacques even thought it was a very good idea to sell Saddam nuclear technology in the early 80s. The *Israelis* -- who flattened that facility before it could start turning out weapons grade fissile materian -- did us all a favor, don't you think? So go on -- explain these things to us. Or, continue to hide behind empty, conclusory platitudes about "injustice". --Ty > > Joseph H replies. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Israelis are somehow significantly responsible for the miserable lot of > hundreds of millions of Arabs... Let's not get into definitions, Ty. Be here all year! Never used the word "significantly". Israeli policies ramp up tensions in that entire area and, in so doing, cause the natural process of democratisation to be hindered. > > Your general tone, Ty, by the way, is disgraceful. Because I seek > > justice and an - eventually inevitable - reconciliation in that part > > of the world I am deemed to be ...Nazi etc etc. Read my web-site and > > open your eyes. > > Uh, right. Uh, to you too! > I saw nothing in your original post to support your contention that you > "support" Israel. It is telling that Jeff and I -- who historically agree on > almost nothing -- came to similar conclusions about you. Jeff and Ty, glad to bring you together at last! Does every posting have to be a complete statement on policy on all matters? > I also note that you answered none of the questions that I posed to you. > However, in the spirit of open enquiry, I'll repeat them: > > I wonder if you'd be shedding any tears if the Arabs had been able > to carry through with their oft-repeated goal of annihilating Israel? Already made that clear. > Indeed, check out the map of "Free Palestine" on numerous Palestinian > websites -- you'll note that it encompasses all of Israel as well. [Do you > have any comment on this point?] No. That map isn't operative. It isn't relevant. It's extinct. It's somebody's fading fantasy. Not mine. > It is also rather telling that Israeli casualties in the intifada are mostly > older men, women and children, while most Palestinian casualties are young > men. And when the Israelis, rather sensibly, put up a barrier to keep > murderous terrorists from preying on women and children, you folks whine and > accuse them of war crimes. [Comment?] Really, Ty, you win again! A general view on any issue CAN'T survive countless particularities. > For that matter, where is your outrage at the *Arab* nations who keep their > Palestinian brothers in squalid concentration camps, fund the hopelessly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Palestinian. And > Old Europe appears all too willing to go along... No outrage? Old Europe is most deinitely not willing to go along. Where did you pick that idea up? > If these Arabs -- or you folks -- gave a tinker's dam about the > Palestinians, you'd demand that the Arab nations resettle the Palestinians. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > would dream of in Saudi Arabia or Iran. Yet you continue to bitch about the > jews. Curious, that. [Comment?] What you say there is actually true. So..because something is true, everything is true? > Perhaps you'd prefer for us to have someone like Mr.Chirac -- or is it > Ch-Iraq? He and his poppinjay foreign minister DeVillepan (who is a man) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > So go on -- explain these things to us. Or, continue to hide behind empty, > conclusory platitudes about "injustice". I don't think they're empty - but I shall continue to hide behind them. Maybe if you were somewhat more concerned about agreed peace in that area, a peace respecting BOTH traditions and the rights of BOTH peoples, the we'd all be better off. > --Ty > Let's not get into definitions, Ty. Be here all year! Never used the > word "significantly". Israeli policies ramp up tensions in that entire > area Only because the terrorists get tense when they think about all those Jews who are still alive. The fact is that the two positions, in their essence, are: The Palestinian terrorists think all the Israelis should be killed. The Israelis think they should be allowed to live. The only possible middle ground is to assert that only half the Israelis should be killed. All of your rationalizations fall apart when they come up against the fact that if the terrorists stopped murdering Israelis (and demonstrated their intention to remain stopped), Israeli retaliations would cease, whereas if the Israelis unilaterally stopped retaliating, the terrorists would continue to murder Israelis. > > Perhaps you should define "injustice" for us. Second, I would like to see > > some kind of apportionment of the responsibility for "injustice" in the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > area and, in so doing, cause the natural process of democratisation to > be hindered. So do you agree that the problems in the Middle East are mostly due to Arabs and not the Israelis? > > I also note that you answered none of the questions that I posed to you. > > However, in the spirit of open enquiry, I'll repeat them: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Already made that clear. No you didn't. So please, just answer the question. > > Indeed, check out the map of "Free Palestine" on numerous Palestinian > > websites -- you'll note that it encompasses all of Israel as well. [Do you > > have any comment on this point?] > > No. That map isn't operative. It isn't relevant. It's extinct. It's > somebody's fading fantasy. Not mine. Yes, but it is the *goal* of the people you have so much sympathy for. Hmmn -- you support the Palestinians, who are ruled by murderous corrupt lunocrats, and who support the annihilation of Israel. Very humanitarian of you. > > It is also rather telling that Israeli casualties in the intifada are mostly > > older men, women and children, while most Palestinian casualties are young [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Really, Ty, you win again! A general view on any issue CAN'T survive > countless particularities. Your "general view" is fatally flawed on most counts. The Palestinians are not the good guys here. > > For that matter, where is your outrage at the *Arab* nations who keep their > > Palestinian brothers in squalid concentration camps, fund the hopelessly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Old Europe is most deinitely not willing to go along. Where did you > pick that idea up? Old Europe condemns Israel whenever it gets the chance for alleged human rights abuses. Yet it curiously never seems to get around to condemning the Arabs for the abject mess they've made of the region. And it hypocritically supports the purported right of Palestinians to return, but not Germans... Of course, for Old Europe it's all about the oil, isn't it? > > If these Arabs -- or you folks -- gave a tinker's dam about the > > Palestinians, you'd demand that the Arab nations resettle the Palestinians. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > What you say there is actually true. So..because something is true, > everything is true? <shrug> You still failed to answer the questions. And you have failed to explain why you have so much more sympathy for the Arabs (and their crackpot mullahs, corrupt lunocrats and murderous strongmen) than for the only Western democracy in the region. > > Perhaps you'd prefer for us to have someone like Mr.Chirac -- or is it > > Ch-Iraq? He and his poppinjay foreign minister DeVillepan (who is a man) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > So go on -- explain these things to us. Or, continue to hide behind empty, > > conclusory platitudes about "injustice". > I don't think they're empty - but I shall continue to hide behind > them. Maybe if you were somewhat more concerned about agreed peace in > that area, a peace respecting BOTH traditions and the rights of BOTH > peoples, the we'd all be better off. Some time ago, I learned that you cannot reason with a rabid dog. A wise man shoots rabid dogs, he does not pat them. You have confidently presumed that the Palestinians are reasonable, despite *overwhelming* evidence to the contrary. While you may indugently assume that you're being "tolerant" you are really just being intentionally ignorant. By the way, I notice that your beloved Palestinians finally managed to detonate two suicide bombs in Israel, killing 12 civilians. Where is your outrage at that? Or are we going to be treated to yet another question-begging "cycle of violence" lamentation? Their brothers in Russia are now threatening to kill a bunch of schoolchildren. Real admirable... In any case, my support for the only genuine democracy in the Middle East remains unshaken. I see no reason to prefer the hopelessly corrupt, vicious and incompetent Arabs over the Israelis. At least the Israelis can fight. <shrug> --Ty >> I don't agree with him about Israel. It is absurd that one nation >> should be permitted to inflict ongoing injustice on another. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Indeed, check out the map of "Free Palestine" on numerous Palestinian > websites -- you'll note that it encompasses all of Israel as well. One day when Israel stops their Apartheid Government thye will have to realize that they had better try to get along with the Palestinians because with one vote-one citizen they will be outnumbererd. > It is also rather telling that Israeli casualties in the intifada are > mostly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and > accuse them of war crimes. It is a war crime. The West bank is an occupied territory. The Geneva Convention doesnt allow for such structures. Of course Israel doesnt pay any attention to such things. > If these Arabs -- or you folks -- gave a tinker's dam about the > Palestinians, you'd demand that the Arab nations resettle the > Palestinians. Why dont the Jews go to Madagascar?? Herzl was alright with it. > As Israel did for the hundreds of thousands of Jews evicted from Arab > nations in 1948. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > whole > Arab world is a cesspool of misery for 200 million Arabs, So its their cesspool. yet you bitch > and > whine about the only Western democracy in the region -- that only has 6 > million people. Muslim Israelis enjoy freedoms and liberty that *no* Jew > would dream of in Saudi Arabia or Iran. Yet you continue to bitch about > the > jews. Curious, that. What freedoms?? Can they vote? Besides I dont give a damn how muslims live in their "own" countrys. But I do resent the fact that Israel spys on us, blames terrorism events on palestinians that they obviously benefit from. The war on Iraq was tailor made for them as well as the twin towers. They wanted Sadaam out of the way and now they got dumbass Bush to do it for them. Only now there is a power vacuum which will likely be filled by something worse. They wont be happy until they manage to start a worldwide conflagration. Theyre garbage. > Me, I'll back the only Western democracy in the region. At least they can > fight. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > --Ty  SignatureUsing Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > One day when Israel stops their Apartheid Government If you'd bother to find out the way things really are, you'd probably not embarrass yourself like that. Far from being an "apartheid" government, Israel has had, from its inception, a significant number of Arab citizens. The only ones who *don't* have full citizenship are the ones who have spent over 50 years trying to destroy Israel and who are even now are murdering Israeli women and children; only a madman would suggest that Israel not defend herself against them. > > One day when Israel stops their Apartheid Government > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > murdering Israeli women and children; only a madman would suggest that > Israel not defend herself against them. Well Israel has an arab minority, a rather small one, 5-10% or something of that order, the desendent of the lucky few who didn't get run out of the country, or slaughtered, by the Stern gang and its merry ilk, a bunch of terrorists who make the PLO look like a troop of boy scouts. Those people you get so worked up about because they try to kill Jews are the desendents of the survivors of the rest of the countries Arab population, who for some reasion you seem to have trouble grasping are still a bit pissed about having their homeland stolen off them , mostly to sooth European guilt over Hitlers final solution. As for the occupied terretories, there are clear laws on the rights and duties of an occuping power, Israel has never paid the slightest attention to these. Indeed their approach seems to boil down to the People are 'occupied terretory' but the land is Israeli terretory to do with as they please. Sorry boys it don't work that way, if you want the land you're stuck with the people on it, and just forcing them off is against the rules, under the legal definition of war crime. > > And when the Israelis, rather sensibly, put up a barrier to keep > > murderous terrorists from preying on women and children, you folks whine > > and > > accuse them of war crimes. > > It is a war crime. So, the Israelis not allowing themselves to be murdered is a war crime? Gosh, one might almost conclude that you have an agenda here. "Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up." -- /Robert Frost/ >> > And when the Israelis, rather sensibly, put up a barrier to keep >> > murderous terrorists from preying on women and children, you folks [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up." -- > /Robert Frost/ I suppose you support those scumbags who have been spying on us in the Pentagon as well. They are responsible for the forgery about Sadaams nuclear shopping list. You are going to have to decide which side you are on AMerica or Israel. Yoou cant serve two masters. I have many Irish and German ancestors but if they caught some germans or IRA types creating havoc here..I would be calling for their heads. Israel is wrong my friend. Sharon is a bully.And I have never heard of a Palestinian "citizen" of Israel with a vote. But a day will come when Israel will have to allow universal suffrage. Then we'll see who the terrorists are. I suppose the Stern Gamg was a group of boyscouts. Who bombed the kING David Hotel? You cant have it both ways. The Israelis remind me of Tawanah Bradley. wth SignatureUsing Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > You are going to have to decide which side you are > on AMerica or Israel. Not a problem. I'm an American. You, however, with your hatred and intolerance, have shown yourself to be completely ignorant of the principles on which America was founded. You lose. > And I have never heard of a Palestinian "citizen" of > Israel with a vote. Which merely demonstrates that you're too ignorant to have any credibility in this discussion; there have been Arab citizens of Israel as long as there's been an Israel. >But a day will come when Israel will have to allow > universal suffrage. That day came almost 60 years ago. Again, you lose, hater. > Stern Gamg was a group of boyscouts. Who bombed the kING David Hotel? The King David Hotel was the British military headquarters in Palestine. The Stern gang warned the Brits that it was about to be bombed, one of the first instances of what is still Israeli policy -- select military targets and minimize casualties whenever possible. Now, why don't you tell us how this equates to the pregnant woman and her two young children who were recently shot at point-blank range by Palestinian terrorists? >> You are going to have to decide which side you are >> on AMerica or Israel. > > Not a problem. I'm an American. You, however, with your hatred and > intolerance, have shown yourself to be completely ignorant of the > principles on which America was founded. You lose. Then why do you support people who spy on us. As the World Court issued its verdict, the Israeli government rapidly mobilized its representatives in Tel Aviv and Washington to present a united front criticizing the judgment and, in the case of the Israelis, stating that the judgment will be ignored. (not my words) >> And I have never heard of a Palestinian "citizen" of >> Israel with a vote. > > Which merely demonstrates that you're too ignorant to have any > credibility in this discussion; there have been Arab citizens of Israel > as long as there's been an Israel. Then why are their cities surrounded by walls? >> But a day will come when Israel will have to allow >> universal suffrage. > > That day came almost 60 years ago. Again, you lose, hater. If I hate..then the flip side of this coin must be that you hate anyone who disagrees with you. I bear you no illwill. I am anti Zionist,not anti Jewish. Just like the Neturai Kartai and the Satmar Hasids who agree with me and the World Court. Do you allow that it is OK to ignore laws you dont agree with? http://hnn.us/articles/6349.html Im through with it now. I have a life beyond arguing on the net.(really I do haha)I aint mad, but it never fails to amaze me how Israeli supporters can be so blind and one sided, then when all else fails, call the person names..nazi, anti semite etc etc. But Im outa here Jeff. Gonna go make me a ham sandwich.(I couldnt resist it) wth SignatureUsing Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > As the World Court issued its verdict, the Israeli government rapidly > mobilized its representatives in Tel Aviv and Washington to present a > united front criticizing the judgment and, in the case of the Israelis, > stating that the judgment will be ignored. Yes, because the World Court decision was, in essence, that Palestinians have a "basic human right" to murder Jews but that Israelis protecting their citizens is "brutal oppression". It was an unjust, biased decision by the ideological descendants who placidly watched as 6 million people were marched into gas chambers. > >> And I have never heard of a Palestinian "citizen" of > >> Israel with a vote. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Then why are their cities surrounded by walls? They're not. There is a fence being built in the West Bank, similar to one that's been in place in Gaza for quite awhile, both made necessary by a concerted campaign of murder. Guess what? In those areas in which the fence is in place, the number of terror attacks is way down. We know you think this is a bad thing, but sane people disagree with you. > >> But a day will come when Israel will have to allow > >> universal suffrage. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If I hate..then the flip side of this coin must be that you hate anyone > who disagrees with you. Your logic is remarkable. Completely wrong, but remarkable. > > As the World Court issued its verdict, the Israeli government rapidly > > mobilized its representatives in Tel Aviv and Washington to present a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > decision by the ideological descendants who placidly watched as 6 > million people were marched into gas chambers. It was also legally nonbinding, much like the worthless General Assembly resolutions that the pro-Palestinians whine so much about. Of course, it is always fascinating to be lectured on human rights abuses by pro-Palestinian folks... > They're not. There is a fence being built in the West Bank, similar to > one that's been in place in Gaza for quite awhile, both made necessary > by a concerted campaign of murder. Guess what? In those areas in which > the fence is in place, the number of terror attacks is way down. Way, way down. Which of course is the absolute worst outcome for Mr. Arafat and his murdering legions. --Ty > > I don't agree with him about Israel. It is absurd that one nation > > should be permitted to inflict ongoing injustice on another. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > men. And when the Israelis, rather sensibly, put up a barrier to keep > murderous terrorists from preying on women and children, you folks whine and Israeli casualties are rather biased because the great majority of their young men going in harms way during the intifada were tucked up nice and safe in tanks or massivly fortified bases. The Palistinean casualties are so high because the Israeli army, and governmnet, seem to think automatic weapons fire is a perfiectly reasionable response to some school kids throwing stones at an armoured vehical. But if you take a little look at the death toll on both sides I do believe you'll find several dead little old Palistinian ladies for every dead little odl jewish lady. As for this barrier, if Israel built it on the internationally recognised boarder nobody would be rasing any serious complaint, anymore than anyone complained about the barriers they built on the boarder with Lebinon or Jordin or Egypt. The trouble is Israel wants to play fast and lose with the laws of war, getting to choise which bits suit them today, and Uncle suger lets them get away with it every damn time. > Me, I'll back the only Western democracy in the region. At least they can > fight. Israil sadly learned a huge amount off the Germans, on the battlefield they are superbe but they have zero idea how to control terretory the conquare and they have no idea how to make peace, beyond the 'give us everything we want and we'll stop killing you, for now.' approach > Clinton's approach to solving the Palestinian problem was as feckless and > slipshod as every other foreign policy initiative he undertook. It was dead > on arrival and Clinton was too gullible to know it. Or, being desparate for > some legacy (other than a stained blue dress), he simply didn't care that it > would likely fail Maybe Clinton's approach to the problem was doomed, persionally I'm inclined to think there is no soluion to this mess short of building a wall around the whole area, issuing everyone who wants one a back pack nuc and telling them the winner is the first one to set it off. But atleast he had a go at brokering a deal that tried to be fair, the shrub just supports whatever the Israilies want this week. > "Ty" <tbeardSPAM@tyler.net> wrote in message > > It is also rather telling that Israeli casualties in the intifada are > mostly [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > young men going in harms way during the intifada were tucked up nice and > safe in tanks or massivly fortified bases. An unconvincing distinction. The *facts* are that the Palestinian lunatics are targeting non-combatants, while the Israelis are killing armed men. And curiously, many idiots continue to condemn the Israelis. Odd, that. --Ty > > "Ty" <tbeardSPAM@tyler.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > And curiously, many idiots continue to condemn the Israelis. Odd, that. Thank you for playing, now please go back and learn a little about what has actually been happening in Israel for the last 60 plus years, to do this isn't hard, just stay well away from US TV sorces. Nobody I know of objects to Israel killing armed men, it is the other 80% plus of the deaths we get a bit anoyed about, you know the 13 year olds walking to school half a mile from a settelment gunned down because some settler claimed he thought they might be about to attack him, or maybe he just wanted to see if his MG worked this morning. By far the most effective part of the intifada, from a political point of view, were the kids out throwing stones, and routenly getting shot for it, no armed men involved, for the Palistineans it is unfortunate they do not seem to really understand western thinking because the nightly pictures of that kind of killing were utterly devestating to Israels credability. The Israeli government must be hitting the knees every night in thanks for those suicide bombers, who mean Israel dosn't have to make a deal. If the Palistineans smarten up again Israel is in a world of trouble. Ofcourse a big part of the problem is the militants look back on Lebinon and see that it was a long and successfull bombing campagn that finally ran Israel out of that country, regular armies arn't the on ones who tend to try and refight the last war. > --Ty > "Ty" <tbeardSPAM@tyler.net> wrote in message > > "Nicholas Smid" <smid2n@clear.net.nz> wrote in message > > > Israeli casualties are rather biased because the great majority of their > > > young men going in harms way during the intifada were tucked up nice and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thank you for playing, now please go back and learn a little about what has > actually been happening in Israel for the last 60 plus years You first. Or are you one of those sad lefties who are *so* desparate for a "cause" that you'll embrace murderous fanatics? One of those odd little hypocrites that extoll the virtues of a culture and people whose nations lack even the most rudimentary individual rights -- free speech, religious tolerance, women's rights, consensual secular government, etc.? Someone who then curiously attacks the only Western democracy in the region? Are you actually someone who has deluded himself into think that admiring murderous terrorist fanatics makes you "tolerant" and "open-minded"? If so, I really want nothing to do with you. --Ty Just a question or two... Don't you think rocket attacks against personnel wielding hand weapons is a bit overzealous for simple retaliation. Sounds more like retribution. Also, where is your proof that Israel would leave the Palestinians alone if they did the same? That has not been Israeli policy in the past or have I read the wrong history books? > > "Ty" <tbeardSPAM@tyler.net> wrote in message > > > "Nicholas Smid" <smid2n@clear.net.nz> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > --Ty > Also, where is your proof that Israel would leave the Palestinians alone if > they did the same? That has not been Israeli policy in the past or have I > read the wrong history books? Before this current intifada began as a reaction to a Jew's visiting the Temple Mount, the Israelis were leaving the Palestinians alone. I don't know which books you've read, but I suspect they're, indeed, the wrong ones. and how did the Israelis respond to the Palisinian response to the visit? I notice that you didn't respond to the previous comment on the out of proportion responces to palistinian violence. I don't agree with reprisal attacks. Voilence begets violence. The Israeli government (and you) seem to think that the only way to stop the bloodshed is for the Palistinians to stop first. What sort of logic is this? If you push me and I shoot you, what sort of incentive (or even desire) would you have to back off. It seems to me that the more civilized, peace desiring, government (Israel) would , and should, be the first one to back off and say, "Lets talk". I am not Jewish, Muslim or even Christian. I don't have any religious axe to grind. No agenda. I am an outsider, looking in at a situation completely out of control. Yes, the United States, and any number of Arab, European, Asian, etc. governments are responcible for pushing one side or another in this conflict towards violence. The entire middle east has been a testing ground for most of the worlds weapons. But, that doesn't mean that those directly involved couldn't, at some point, have said, "Stay out of it! You are the ones who created this situation, so either help or get out of the way." I have not seen this happen. Maybe I haven't read the 'right' books. Maybe I don't have all of the 'facts'. But, here is a 'fact' we all need to take heed of: "Right by might is not right at all. Proving your cause is just by forcing your view on another only proves you to be unjust and a tyrant." So maybe somebody needs to ask if they want to be remembered as a peace maker or as a tyrant. > > Also, where is your proof that Israel would leave the Palestinians alone if > > they did the same? That has not been Israeli policy in the past or have I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't know which books you've read, but I suspect they're, indeed, the > wrong ones. > I notice that you didn't respond to the previous comment on the out of > proportion responces to palistinian violence. Only in the case of Israel would the bulldozing of a murderer's house be considered an excessive response to that murderer's shooting a 2-year- old and a 7-year-old at point-blank range. Only in the case of Israel?! I believe you will find that kind of responce would be excessive in any civilized society. Punish the murderer, not the family, comunity or culture. Would you have us destroy the entire German race for the crimes of WWII? How about the Russian people for the communist purges. Maybe the rest of the world for turning a blind eye to the suffering of the Jewish people? Then look to your own house, for the ones who informed and hid and lied to save thier own lives. Where would you have it end? Revenge and retribution in the name of justice only serve tyrants and bullies. I said I have religious axe to grind, and I have no political agenda to blather about. Apparently you do. I am sorry that you are/ have been hurt. The only wat to solve the problems in the Middle East, the world in fact, is for people to talk. Not governments (a body of people, notably un-governed) but people. One to another with no predjudice, no recriminations and no closed minded hatred for another that has not harmed you simply because of their race, religion or heritage. Try that Jeffery. You can learn a lot on these boards if you just try. If you wish to dicuss this further please repond privately. I am interested in learning the real story behind the tragety in Israel, but remember, I cannot see it from your point of view. Only mine through your vision. We may disagree, but it doesn't mean we're wrong; or right. Thanks > > I notice that you didn't respond to the previous comment on the out of > > proportion responces to palistinian violence. > > Only in the case of Israel would the bulldozing of a murderer's house be > considered an excessive response to that murderer's shooting a 2-year- > old and a 7-year-old at point-blank range. > Only in the case of Israel?! I believe you will find that kind of responce > would be excessive in any civilized society. Punish the murderer, not the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it end? Revenge and retribution in the name of justice only serve tyrants > and bullies. And how do you suggest that Israel handle scumbag terrorists who hide behind women and children? Are you actually suggesting that militants can only be attacked if there is absolutely no chance of collateral damage? > Apparently you do. I am sorry that you are/ have been hurt. > The only wat to solve the problems in the Middle East, the world in fact, is > for people to talk. My reading of history indicates that there are many times when talking will not get the job done. History suggests that there are times when military force is the appropriate response. Three days at Gettysburg did more to end slavery than 50 years of talking. One day at Normandy Beach did more to eliminate Nazism than 10 years of talking and appeasement. And, for what it's worth, I have never found that reason in with a rabid dog is a useful exercise. In my opinion, the Palestinian psychopaths are little different than rabid dog's. The most effective response is to shoot rabid dogs, not talk to them. So I see nothing wrong with Israel using military force to eliminate terrorists who target civilians and who hide behind their own women and children. Nor do I see any moral superiority in condemning Israel for doing so. In fact, I think it is morally reprehensible to excuse slimeballs who intentionally targeted women in children and who hide behind their own women in children. And that really is what you're doing, isn't it? The responsibility for collateral damage must remain with militants who choose to hide behind women and children, in my humble opinion. And by the way, where is your moral outrage at the Palestinian terrorists? They are the ones targeting civilians. They are the ones hiding behind women and children. Yet you are remarkably silent about these scumbag. Not governments (a body of people, notably un-governed) > but people. One to another with no predjudice, no recriminations and no > closed minded hatred for another that has not harmed you simply because of > their race, religion or heritage. My suggest that you take this up with the Arabs, who openly proclaim via their assorted terrorist organizations, that they wish to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Perhaps your cries for tolerance should be directed at the most intolerant? I even suggest that you go to various Palestinian web sites and take a look at the maps of "Greater Palestine". You will find that Greater Palestine includes all of Israel. Where Ager moral outrage at this? > Try that Jeffery. You can learn a lot on > these boards if you just try. Yes, you can. For instance, you can learn how ridiculous the various pro Palestinian arguments are. --Ty > Only in the case of Israel?! I believe you will find that kind of responce > would be excessive in any civilized society. Punish the murderer, not the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it end? Revenge and retribution in the name of justice only serve tyrants > and bullies. And how do you suggest that Israel handle scumbag terrorists who hide behind women and children? Are you actually suggesting that militants can only be attacked if there is absolutely no chance of collateral damage? > Apparently you do. I am sorry that you are/ have been hurt. > The only wat to solve the problems in the Middle East, the world in fact, is > for people to talk. My reading of history indicates that there are many times when talking will not get the job done and that there are times when military force is the appropriate and effective response. Three days at Gettysburg did more to end slavery than 50 years of talking. One day at Normandy Beach did more to eliminate Nazism than 10 years of talking and appeasement. And, for what it's worth, I have never found that reasoning with a rabid dog is a useful exercise. In my opinion, the Palestinian psychopaths are little different from rabid dogs. The most effective response is to shoot rabid dogs, not talk to them. So I see nothing wrong with Israel using military force to eliminate terrorists who target civilians and who hide behind their own women and children. Nor do I see any moral superiority in condemning Israel for doing so. In fact, I think it is morally reprehensible to excuse slimeballs who intentionally targeted women in children and who hide behind their own women in children. And that really is what you're doing, isn't it? The responsibility for collateral damage must remain with militants who choose to hide behind women and children, in my humble opinion. And by the way, where is your moral outrage at the Palestinian terrorists? They are the ones targeting civilians. They are the ones hiding behind women and children. Yet you are remarkably silent about these scumbag. Not governments (a body of people, notably un-governed) > but people. One to another with no predjudice, no recriminations and no > closed minded hatred for another that has not harmed you simply because of > their race, religion or heritage. May I suggest that you take this up with the Arabs, who openly proclaim via their assorted terrorist organizations, that they wish to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Perhaps your cries for tolerance should be directed at the most intolerant first? I suggest that you go to various Palestinian web sites and take a look at the maps of "Greater Palestine". You will find that Greater Palestine includes all of Israel. Where's your moral outrage at this? > Try that Jeffery. You can learn a lot on > these boards if you just try. Yes, you can. For instance, you can learn how ridiculous the various pro Palestinian arguments are. --Ty Great debate, guys, but you have gone off the point a little (!). Just for those puzzled folk who wonder about the original posting I am pleased to re-post it: Don't get me wrong, I love America. I love your movies, I love your heroes, I love your music, I love jazz, I love your cities, I love your vigour and your honesty... I don't love your chocolate. A little bland - like as if it melted and then got hard again. Come to Europe and have a real bite! Your President, however...where did you get him? They say over here he's not clever. I don't agree with that. I reckon he must be quite a capable guy to get where he got. I'd say he's quite personable too.So maybe an allround alright sort of guy... And I actually agree with him about Irag and Turkey. I want democracy in that part of the world too. Turkey is a good bridge to the Middle East. Saddam should have been shifted a long time ago. I don't agree with him about Israel. It is absurd that one nation should be permitted to inflict ongoing injustice on another. It is absurd that the policies of this one nation should threaten the stability of the entire region - and indeed of the entire world. America must wake up and see this. Maybe Clinton did; maybe he tried harder than most. But..our friend! He is so crass. He has no vision of a human future. Oh, I know he has something you call "family values" - and indeed I have family values myself. But too often such beliefs sit like clingfilm over the mind, protecting it from infection from anything as threatening as a thought. Your President, the most powerful man in the world by a mile, has no sense of the world. He has no sense of history. He has no care for ecology. He has no care for dignity. He has no care for justice. He has no care for ordinary human beings living a decent life. He is insulated from all these concerns. It is - frankly - terrifying that such a great nation could produce such a crass leader. America is a great nation. Americans should begin to see that they have a duty - to themselves, first, but ultimately to all humankind - to produce leaders who are capable of rising to the challemges of our age. A particular response to some of these challenges is outlined in my web-site www.humanisation.org, You might like to have a look at same. Thank you, America. Joseph H www.humanisation.org AT LEAST WE HAVE BILL O'REILLY > Don't get me wrong, I love America. > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > www.humanisation.org > AT LEAST WE HAVE BILL O'REILLY Joseph H writes in reply. "Big hit, Carol!" I'm quivering. > > Don't get me wrong, I love America. > > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > > > www.humanisation.org > Don't get me wrong, I love America. > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > www.humanisation.org Nothing to do with a Scot like me, but I notice that none of the responding posters addresses your other criticisms - the bit from 'But...our friend!' downwards. They've all jumped on the Arab/Jew bandwagon. > Nothing to do with a Scot like me, but I notice that none of the responding > posters addresses your other criticisms - the bit from 'But...our friend!' > downwards. They've all jumped on the Arab/Jew bandwagon. Most of his comments were matters of opinion, to which he is welcome; his comment on Israel is factually inaccurate, unless, of course, one considers it "unjust" that Jews should be allowed to live. >> Nothing to do with a Scot like me, but I notice that none of the responding >> posters addresses your other criticisms - the bit from 'But...our friend!' [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >his comment on Israel is factually inaccurate, unless, of course, one >considers it "unjust" that Jews should be allowed to live. It is just too bad so many innocent Palisitians had to de for them to do so but then again we killed off most of the indians here in the US to do the same thing. My guess is people don't actually read or explore history they instead watch a spoon fed version that is so dilluted from fact it resembles what some would have you believe. Sad how this has replced historical facts. -- Mark > >Most of his comments were matters of opinion, to which he is welcome; > >his comment on Israel is factually inaccurate, unless, of course, one > >considers it "unjust" that Jews should be allowed to live. > > It is just too bad so many innocent Palisitians had to de for them to > do so Well, contrary to unpopular belief, Israel does not target Palestinian civilians*; unfortunately, the Palestinian terrorist leaders...excuse me..."brave freedom fighters" (you know, the ones who plan and order the murders of Israeli teenagers) cynically hide themselves amongst their own civilian populations, so that when Israel strikes at them, civilian deaths becaome inevitable. Israel, then, is forced to choose between allowing its civilians to continue to be murdered or accidentally incurrent Palestinian civilian casualties while striking at the people who are plaaning more bombings of Israeli schools and pizza parlors. No sane person expects the Israelis to accept the deaths of their children, which is what the terrorist leaders count on. So, if "innocent Palestinians" have died, they have only other Palestinians to blame. * Israelis who commit atrocities against Arabs are prosecuted in Israeli courts and, when found guilty, punished. Palestinians who murder Israelis are rewarded. Signature================================================== Take back the Congress without DeLay! >> >Most of his comments were matters of opinion, to which he is welcome; >> >his comment on Israel is factually inaccurate, unless, of course, one [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Well, contrary to unpopular belief, Israel does not target Palestinian >civilians*; It is interesting how many are killed by accident. I wonder if those covilians killed by accident understand and accept the loss of their lives as a part of war. > unfortunately, the Palestinian terrorist leaders...excuse >me..."brave freedom fighters" (you know, the ones who plan and order the >murders of Israeli teenagers) cynically hide themselves amongst their >own civilian populations, so that when Israel strikes at them, civilian >deaths becaome inevitable. Not wishing to imply I agree with the method, could you show another method to regain control of their country and another method to stop the damage done to them? I am sure others would wish to hear as well. > Israel, then, is forced to choose between >allowing its civilians to continue to be murdered or accidentally >incurrent Palestinian civilian casualties while striking at the people >who are plaaning more bombings of Israeli schools and pizza parlors. On the same note, how do the people of Palestien stop the armies of Isreal from taking yet more of their land and freedoms? It is a sad situation when you condone the killing of the dispossed when they attempt to reclaim their own country from invaders. > No >sane person expects the Israelis to accept the deaths of their children, >which is what the terrorist leaders count on. But you, the sane one amonst us decided it is a-okay to kill the children of the opposition as long as you get the target of your attack. >So, if "innocent Palestinians" have died, they have only other >Palestinians to blame. I know this mentallity all to well and it is called, "Blame the individual that is raped for the rape", or"Blame the person being killed for being killed". Fantasy land comes to life yet again. >* Israelis who commit atrocities against Arabs are prosecuted in Israeli >courts and, when found guilty, punished. Palestinians who murder >Israelis are rewarded. So tell me who rewards the Palestinians for the killing of non-combatants? Is it god? What you refer to is a minority that believes any method to win the war to regain their country is right and justified. That minority is growing of course as it will continue to do as long as Isreal continues to kill them and occupy their country. Would you ever stop fighting if your country was invaded? After years of conflict and years of atrocities would you succumbed to any method to win the war? I can't say what I would do faced with the loss of multiple family members, my possible future, watching innocents slaughtered, etc.... What exactly is it you think has went on for almost fifty years? Do you think at all or do you just buy the bullshit that is spoon fed to you? -- Mark > >> >Most of his comments were matters of opinion, to which he is welcome; > >> >his comment on Israel is factually inaccurate, unless, of course, one [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > covilians killed by accident understand and accept the loss of their > lives as a part of war. If the terrorist leaders didn't cynically and cravenly hide amongst their own civilian populations, fewer Palestinian civilians would die or be injured. If the Palestinians would force the terrorists to stop murdering Israelis in their name, the Israelis wouldn't need to retaliate, and fewer Palestinian civilians would die or be injured. > > unfortunately, the Palestinian terrorist leaders...excuse > >me..."brave freedom fighters" (you know, the ones who plan and order the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > method to regain control of their country and another method to stop > the damage done to them? I am sure others would wish to hear as well. If they had spent the past 60 years *not* allowing terrorists to murder Israelis in their name, they'd've had their second Palestinian state many years ago. > > Israel, then, is forced to choose between > >allowing its civilians to continue to be murdered or accidentally [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > On the same note, how do the people of Palestien stop the armies of > Isreal from taking yet more of their land and freedoms? By not using those lands as bases from which to launch murderous attacks against Israli civilians, of course. > It is a sad situation when you condone the killing of the dispossed > when they attempt to reclaim their own country from invaders. Please cite something I've said that would be interpreted by a sane, intelligent English speaker as my condoning the killing of anyone. Hint: you can't. Oh, and by the way, Palestinian terrorists have been murdering Israelis since long before the '67 war; as a matter of fact, those attacks were the main *reason* for the occupation. Signature================================================== Take back the Congress without DeLay! Contribute to Nick Lampson: https://services.myngp.com/ngponlineservices/contribution.aspx? X=rWLXkMAYMtqzlCs5Mj3YTw%3d%3d >> >> >Most of his comments were matters of opinion, to which he is welcome; >> >> >his comment on Israel is factually inaccurate, unless, of course, one [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> covilians killed by accident understand and accept the loss of their >> lives as a part of war. Been busy, I apologize for the tardiness of my response. >If the terrorist leaders didn't cynically and cravenly hide amongst >their own civilian populations, This makes killing a-okay by your standards I see. > fewer Palestinian civilians would die or >be injured. Any further excuses for the mass murder you would like to offer? I know I never get tired of hearing people excuse bad behavior. > If the Palestinians would force the terrorists to stop >murdering Israelis in their name, Them damn ole civilians should take charge and force those fanatics to stop bombing others so that they will stop being murdered. I like that. > the Israelis wouldn't need to >retaliate, and fewer Palestinian civilians would die or be injured. I know what you mean. It is just too bad some blacks kill, rape and murder because then I can blame all blacks and start killing them back, them bastards. No, wait, white people do this too. Good I can now kill all them damn ole black people and the white people. sh.t, all people do this. Great, I am now justified in any action I choose to ever take. You're so smart and helpful. Do you have any other excuses I can use for when I do something I know to be wrong? >> > unfortunately, the Palestinian terrorist leaders...excuse >> >me..."brave freedom fighters" (you know, the ones who plan and order the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Israelis in their name, they'd've had their second Palestinian state >many years ago. Them damn ole civilians. Bastards don't make all them fanatics stop wearing bombs and shooting everybody. They should just give up their country, get herded like cattle into a reservation like the US did with those red skin savages that use to just run around freely like they owned the place. Those people just don't know their place. >> > Israel, then, is forced to choose between >> >allowing its civilians to continue to be murdered or accidentally [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >By not using those lands as bases from which to launch murderous attacks >against Israli civilians, of course. This is the best excuse I have heard all day. So if we take Iraq, as we did and base troops there, as we have all we have to do is sit back and wait for it. There has to be some in Iraq that really dislike Americans and will of course attack our troops stationed there. When they attack, we take the city we suspect they planned the attck from. In a few decades we could own all Iraq. I like your logic. >> It is a sad situation when you condone the killing of the dispossed >> when they attempt to reclaim their own country from invaders. > >Please cite something I've said that would be interpreted by a sane, >intelligent English speaker as my condoning the killing of anyone. Pretty much all of it. You excuse the killing of Palestinians by the Israelis over and over again. I was going to outline your continues excuses for the killing of innocents by a standing army [a tad different them a bunch of fanatics in the standing army enforces the government's policies while the bunch of fanatics enforce their own policy]. >Hint: you can't. I wonder if you ever read what you write. Any sane individual can see clearly you making excuses, i.e. making excuses for the actions of a government directed towards an entire group of people [a country full of them] because of the actions of a very small group of people. Your bias is showing and you should learn to cover it far better then you have been doing. >Oh, and by the way, Palestinian terrorists have been murdering Israelis >since long before the '67 war; as a matter of fact, those attacks were >the main *reason* for the occupation. Me being kind of fuzzy on the date the war started for the occupation of Palistine by the Jewish people so why don't you tell me when it started. It wasn't 1967... didn't it start in 1948 or some time around there? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War Ah, to have a third party devide your country up for you. -- Mark |
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