pressed hand prayer, circumcision, covenant
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rexitis - 01 Jun 2004 18:23 GMT An amazing new theory asks if praying (kneeling with hands folded) symbolizes touching God's thigh or circumcision. The internet url for this article is http://members.ij.net/rex/praying.html
Praying with hands together is a posture with an origin that is virtually unknown. Most people, including members of the Jewish and Christian religions, do not know that the hands-in-prayer was a Jewish practice.
"The book of Jewish Knowledge" by Nathan Ausubel (p. 351) states "It has also been commonly assumed that folding the hands in prayer is exclusively a Christian custom. This is not the historical fact at all. As early as the post-Exilic period, when Jews prayed, they folded their hands, and they observed this custom for several centuries even after it had been adopted by Christians."
The Talmud relates how the Babylonian Sage, Rabba (Abba ben Joseph, C. 280-352), used to pray with his hands folded.
During the time of Jesus, the Jewish postures for prayer included folding the hands. Being Jews, Jesus and his followers did so too.
The Jewish practice was discontinued by Jews in reaction against their persecution under the Christian religion in the Holy Roman Empire. Rabbis decreed that Jews cease folding their hands in prayer because their oppressors used folded hands.
It was a deliberate disassociation according to Ausubel. And it has been forgotten by almost everyone.
The praying-hands mystery leads to an amazing new theory (farther down) about another forgotten prayer practice in the book of Genesis. Genesis contains passages in which a male takes an oath by placing his hand "under the thigh" of the male to whom he is swearing. It has sometimes been interpreted as swearing upon, or touching the testicles.
The Book of Genesis (Ch. 24, verse 2-4, and also see verse 9) states "And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: And I will make thee swear by the Lord, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell..." Abraham's servant swore that he (the man-servant) would not bring a wife for his son (Abraham's son, Isaac) from the land of Canaan.
The Book of Genesis (Ch. 47, verse 29) states: "And the time drew nigh that Israel must die: and he called his son Joseph, and said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and deal kindly and truly with me; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt..." Israel had his son Joseph swear that he would bury him in the Holy Land and not in Egypt.
The Book of Genesis (Ch. 32, verse 25) appears to relate God seizing Jacob in the same part of the anatomy.
The Talmud, an encyclopedia of Jewish life, contains numerous stories of devoted slaves. A model of the devoted slave is the biblical figure of Abraham's slave, Eliezer. Abraham found Eliezer starving by the road to Damascus. Eliezer was a runaway slave. After Abraham nursed him back to health, he told the runaway that he was free to leave, but Eliezer, who was born to serve, vowed never to leave Abraham, having finally found a worthy Master. When Abraham asked Eliezer to swear loyalty, he told him to "place your hand upon my thigh."
The Hebrew word in some passages is 'yarek,' meaning 'thigh' in the Old Testament. That ritual might derive from the belief that the thigh is a center of power, probably because it's near the genitals. Some interpreters argue that it is a swearing upon the genitals, with "under the thigh" being a euphemism in Hebrew.
Dr. Lee Stone, in his book "The Power of a Symbol," said that the "most ancient way of administering the oath was by placing the hand between the thighs, on the genitals. These were regarded as the Christian and the Jew regard the Bible, as being the most sacred of tangible things" (10, pg. 45).
Dr. P. C. Remondino, in his book "History of Circumcision from the Earliest Times to the Present" said that "It was partly this custom of swearing, or of affirming, with the hand under the thigh, by the early Israelites," which led many to believe that their hand was being placed on the testicles (11, pg. 35).
It is likely that the passages above inspired the popular claim that 'testify' derived from 'testicle," but the claim is disputed with alternative derivations and interpretations. A popular claim also alleges that Greeks and Romans would touch their own testicles while swearing, however there is no evidence in support. The "testicle" theory argues that the testicles were used for oaths because they represented virility, power, and represented the man's future generations, and the source of life.
The new theory asks whether the "inner thigh" posture (the "yarek oath" or "yarek prayer") acknowledged the man's circumcision. In Judaism the circumcision is the male's covenant with God and is also called the "Covenant of Abraham," because it began with the Patriarch Abraham. Two references to the "inner thigh" oath (above) refer to Abraham, whose circumcision would have been new and revered. Abraham would have circumcised his slaves, who later performed "inner thigh" oaths to Abraham.
The book of Genesis (at 16:1-3, 15-16, 17, 21:1-2) states: When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said to him, "I am God Almighty;" walk before me, and be blameless. And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous." Then Abram fell on his face; and God said to him, "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You shall be the ancestor of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the ancestor of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God."
God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring. Both the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money must be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Then Abraham took his son Ishmael and all the slaves born in his house or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said to him. Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. And his son Ishmael was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. That very day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised; and all the men of his house, slaves born in the house and those bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him. . . .
The book of Genesis does not state whether the covenant (or contract) was reciprocal in regard to whether God became circumcised.
In an earlier example above, Abraham says to his servant "Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: And I will make thee swear by the Lord, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth....." thereby making the act also a prayer to God and a gesture to Abraham's covenant with God (Abraham's circumcision).
The biblical references do not state the posture of any male who placed his hand(s) on the "inner thigh." Did he kneel? It is plausible that the servant/slave kneeled before his master Abraham when swearing such an important oath. It is plausible that the son Joseph kneeled before his father Israel. They kneeled in prayer to God, in the same manner as a slave to his master, and a son to his father.
Was the oath-taker seated? If so, the oath-giver might kneel and place his hands in the lap of the oath-taker. The word "yarek" is sometimes interpreted as "lap."
Many religions, including Judaism, used (and some still use) kneeling, bowing/prostration and genuflection as prayer postures. Kneeling was abandoned in Judaism because of persecution under the Christian religion during the Holy Roman Empire (the same reason that folded hands were discontinued) according to "The book of Jewish Knowledge" by Nathan Ausubel (p. 351).
Although hands folded in prayer is no longer a part of modern Judaism, there is still some kneeling. Some also bow in several prayers, who used to kneel but discontinued the practice. Often, kneeling is only performed during Aleinu prayer on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. Judaism certainly still uses terminology in its liturgy that refers to kneeling. Three times on Yom Kippur there are moments to kneel on saying the word "cor'im" which is a word meaning "to kneel." Additionally, the word for a blessing or benediction, "berachah" comes from the word "berech" which means knee.
The biblical references do not state the form of any male's hand(s) during the "inner thigh" oaths. Were the hands folded in the posture of kneeling to pray? Folded hands would enable an oath-giver to put both hands upon both inner thighs of the oath-taker.
A new theory from the historian and journalist Rex Curry asks if praying (kneeling with hands folded) is a symbolic re-enactment of Abraham's "inner thigh" or lap prayer, and/or if praying heavenward symbolizes an oath upon God's "inner thigh" or lap as an acknowledgment of God's covenant with Abraham (or as an acknowledgment of God's own circumcision and covenant in reciprocity).
http://members.ij.net/rex/praying.html
associated unfruitful searches for web research: yarek oath yarek prayer thigh oath thigh prayer pressed hand prayer
Peter Jason - 03 Jun 2004 06:43 GMT < chainsawwwwwwwwwed>
You Jews probably stole all this from the gentle Caananites; before you "slew" them all. World's first genocide, I'll wager.
Doug Weller - 03 Jun 2004 18:13 GMT > < chainsawwwwwwwwwed> > > You Jews probably stole all this from the gentle Caananites; before you > "slew" them all. > World's first genocide, I'll wager. And you're a bigoted ignorant idiot.
Jews, or at least most of the original people we call Jews, were Canaanites.
Doug
Peter Jason - 05 Jun 2004 01:38 GMT > > < chainsawwwwwwwwwed> > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Doug Thank you. Tell me, why have the Jews always had trouble?
Tom McDonald - 05 Jun 2004 02:33 GMT >>>< chainsawwwwwwwwwed> >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Thank you. > Tell me, why have the Jews always had trouble? Everyone has always had trouble. What's your point?
Scratch that. I think I know your point, and I've reached my BS limit for one day.
Tom McDonald
Peter Jason - 06 Jun 2004 01:00 GMT > >>>< chainsawwwwwwwwwed> > >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Tom McDonald Simply that the trouble everbody has is now augmented by the Jews in Palestine. The causes of the Middle East predicament are many, and one of them is the insistence of fundamentalist Jews to invade places occupied by other people.
And what will be the result? Sensible Jews will leave to live elsewhere, as sensible Jews and countless others have always done, (even now Russian Jews are stampeding back to Mother Russia), the Palestinians will reclaim most of their territory for demographic reasons (more Palestinian babies than Jewish ones), and the inbred Hasidic maniacs will move to live behind concrete walls - just as THEY have always done.
Ken Sisby - 15 Jun 2004 12:54 GMT Doug please correct me if I'm wrong but was the term "Jew" in use back in biblical days? I always thought that Jews are descended from some of the Hebrews that occupied Judea when the monotheistic religion known as Judaism formed. So isn't this whole thread redundant?
Ken
> > < chainsawwwwwwwwwed> > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Doug Doug Weller - 15 Jun 2004 16:57 GMT > Doug please correct me if I'm wrong but was the term "Jew" in use back in > biblical days? I always thought that Jews are descended from some of the > Hebrews that occupied Judea when the monotheistic religion known as Judaism > formed. So isn't this whole thread redundant? Well, Jews = Judeans, ok.
But the Hebrews? Who are they? Not the Habiru almost certainly. We don't really know.
So, I'd still say that the people we call Jews are mostly the descendants of the Canaanites.
Doug
> Ken > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> Doug o8TY - 16 Jun 2004 19:16 GMT > > Doug please correct me if I'm wrong but was the term "Jew" in use back in > > biblical days? I always thought that Jews are descended from some of the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > So, I'd still say that the people we call Jews are mostly the descendants > of the Canaanites. Maybe Jews = Judeans = Ioides, the descendents of Io. Greek myth says Io left Argos in Greece for Egypt where her son Epaphos reigned as one of the Uksos. The expulsion of the Uksos from Egypt certainly compares with the exodus of the Hebrews.
Ken Sisby - 03 Jun 2004 18:15 GMT I had always thought that the xian custom of holding the hands palm-to-palm was borrowed from the Hindus who do the same thing. Since Jesus evidently studied religion in India he would have picked up the habit there.
Ken
> An amazing new theory asks if praying (kneeling with hands folded) > symbolizes touching God's thigh or circumcision. The internet url for this [quoted text clipped - 190 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- rexitis - 04 Jun 2004 13:27 GMT Thanks for your comment. Of course, the original post argues a connection back to Abraham. So, under your question, that would leave open whether the "thigh prayer" from Abraham inspired the Hindus who then inspired other people later. In addition, any India connection for Jesus seems more uncertain than the evidence that people in his community were already using "hands in prayer." Perhaps your question is better posed as whether there is an India connection to Abraham or his associates before him, or other predecessors of Jesus. Thanks again.
> I had always thought that the xian custom of holding the hands palm-to-palm > was borrowed from the Hindus who do the same thing. Since Jesus evidently > studied religion in India he would have picked up the habit there. > > Ken Ken Sisby - 27 Jun 2004 17:48 GMT Your response seems to suggest that, in your opinion, the mythical Abraham or Abhrim or whatever his name was should be viewed as some kind of progenitor of religion. However, there is no proof of any kind that Abraham ever existed. So it is hard to imagine how he could have influenced the entire Hindu culture. Further, if there was an Abraham who came from the city of Ur in present day Iraq, there isn't even any mythology suggesting that he travelled to India. And finally, the mythological figure of Abraham is purported to have live just a few thousand years ago, whereas the Vedic culture of the Indus Valley was building great cities and civilizations at least 5 or 6 thousand years ago and probably several thousand more, thus predating all Mesopotamian and Egyptian civilizations. Indeed the biblical figure of Zarathustra (the inventor of the Devil...from the Vedic Devas), who supposedly had much to do with the origins of the Hebrew faith (that evolved into Judaism) refers to the Persian prophet Zoroaster who founded his own religion after breaking off from the Hindu religion called Sonaten.
Many of the arguments for Jesus having studied religion in India are based upon the extensive borrowing that he did from Buddhism. The virgin birth was a direct steal from the teachings of Buddha who died long before Jesus was born, or the idea of turning the other cheek (another quote from Buddha). Indeed, so much of the teachings of Jesus were borrowed from Buddhism that many scholars believe that Jesus was trying to fuse Buddhism with early Judaism. This even applies to his claim to be an avatar in which mythical gods appear in human form as Buddha was. The Bodhisattva (Buddha), or messiah in Christianity appeared in human form through Prince Siddhartha (later known as the Buddha ) to save mankind. The concept of the avatar is old in Vedic culture, Rom, Krishna (Christ?), Buddha and I believe that there were seven others. The xian concept of half man/half god or the son of god is exactly the same as the Vedic avatars. There are just too many similarities for this to be a coincidence and it was all done in India first. Of course devout xians, Muslims and Jews will be uncomfortable with this because judeo-xian-islamic cosmogony places themselves as the origin (but don't all religions?).
In the days of Jesus, the Greeks were the scholars of the day and the golden age of Greece coincided quite well with the spread of Buddhism (Hinduism without the politics). Greek literature was full of borrowings from the Vedas and Hindu culture, Plato's Republic being a direct steal from the Hindu class system and possibly a reaction to the depoliticising and the attempted elimination of the Hindu caste system during the Buddhist revolution.
It is curious to note that the Greek language is descended from Sanskrit. The Greek term "Cristos" or "Kristos" was adopted by xians to give Jesus the title of "Christ". About five thousand years ago, the massive civil war in modern day India was called the Mahabharat in which Prince Krishna sided with the weaker side and won the day. There ensued a massive exodus from Bharat (India) as the losing side was exiled. It is unknown where these people went, however the lack of Caucasoid features in East Asian people suggest that the exodus went to the West. Followers of Max Mueller's much disproved Aryan invasion myth will no doubt jump on this, but it has been suggested that the inter-relationship between most Western languages and Sanskrit was the result of this exodus. Remembering that this exodus happened millennia before European civilization or even Mesopotamian civilization (from where the mythical figure of Abraham came) and unfortunately the ancient Vedic civilization wrote in a hieroglyphic script that has yet to be deciphered.
Is it possible that the ballad of Krishna found it's way to Greece two and a half millennia later as the term "Kristos"? Possibly. However it is certainly feasible that the xian custom of holding the hands together palm to palm was borrowed from the Hindus who were doing it before the existence of ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia and Greece. Before the existence of Hebrews or xians or any Middle Eastern religion surviving today.
Ken
> Thanks for your comment. Of course, the original post argues a connection > back to Abraham. So, under your question, that would leave open whether the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- rexitis - 08 Jun 2004 13:53 GMT Update: A Rabbi recently stated "We fold our hands in prayer of 'Shmoneh Esreh' (the main portion of prayer - the 18 blessings) - (source: "Code of Jewish Law" O.C. 95:3; MB 6 there). For Kabbalistic reasons, we do not interlace our right and left hand fingers together - (source: "Ta'amei Minhagim" 511)."
An amazing new article explores the origins of a common prayer posture (kneeling with hands folded). the internet url for this article is http://members.ij.net/rex/praying.html and at http://RexCurry.net
R.Schenck - 17 Jun 2004 21:58 GMT > An amazing new theory asks if praying (kneeling with hands folded) > symbolizes touching God's thigh or circumcision. The internet url for this [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > decreed that Jews cease folding their hands in prayer because their > oppressors used folded hands. Charlemagne's group were oppressing people in judea?
And to get back at them the jews didn't put their hands together when they prayed?
Gee, i dunno..
snip
Inger E Johansson - 17 Jun 2004 22:02 GMT > > An amazing new theory asks if praying (kneeling with hands folded) > > symbolizes touching God's thigh or circumcision. The internet url for this [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Gee, i dunno.. And pray tell us what this has to do with archaeology? History maybe. Religion definitely but archaeology?
Inger E
> snip Tony Smith - 17 Jun 2004 23:16 GMT > And pray tell us what this has to do with archaeology? History maybe. [Lines inserted here to allow Inger the k00k to rabbit on about copyright]
> Religion definitely but archaeology? About as much as 99% of the tripe you post has to do with archaeology Inger dear.
Tony Smith
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