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pressed hand prayer, circumcision, covenant

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rexitis - 01 Jun 2004 18:23 GMT
    An amazing new theory asks if praying (kneeling with hands folded)
symbolizes touching God's thigh or circumcision.  The internet url for this
article is http://members.ij.net/rex/praying.html

   Praying with hands together is a posture with an origin that is
virtually unknown. Most people, including members of the Jewish and
Christian religions, do not know that the hands-in-prayer was a Jewish
practice.

   "The book of Jewish Knowledge" by Nathan Ausubel (p. 351) states "It has
also been commonly assumed that folding the hands in prayer is exclusively a
Christian custom. This is not the historical fact at all. As early as the
post-Exilic period, when Jews prayed, they folded their hands, and they
observed this custom for several centuries even after it had been adopted by
Christians."

   The Talmud relates how the Babylonian Sage, Rabba (Abba ben Joseph, C.
280-352), used to pray with his hands folded.

   During the time of Jesus, the Jewish postures for prayer included
folding the hands.  Being Jews, Jesus and his followers did so too.

   The Jewish practice was discontinued by Jews in reaction against their
persecution under the Christian religion in the Holy Roman Empire.   Rabbis
decreed that Jews cease folding their hands in prayer because their
oppressors used folded hands.

   It was a deliberate disassociation according to Ausubel.  And it has
been forgotten by almost everyone.

   The praying-hands mystery leads to an amazing new theory (farther down)
about another forgotten prayer practice in the book of Genesis.  Genesis
contains passages in which a male takes an oath by placing his hand "under
the thigh" of the male to whom he is swearing.   It has sometimes been
interpreted as swearing upon, or touching the testicles.

   The Book of Genesis (Ch. 24, verse 2-4, and also see verse 9) states
"And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all
that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh: And I will make thee
swear by the Lord, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou
shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among
whom I dwell..."  Abraham's servant swore that he (the man-servant) would
not bring a wife for his son (Abraham's son, Isaac) from the land of Canaan.

   The Book of Genesis (Ch. 47, verse 29) states: "And the time drew nigh
that Israel must die: and he called his son Joseph, and said unto him, If
now I have found grace in thy sight, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my
thigh, and deal kindly and truly with me; bury me not, I pray thee, in
Egypt..."  Israel had his son Joseph swear that he would bury him in the
Holy Land and not in Egypt.

   The Book of Genesis (Ch. 32, verse 25) appears to relate God seizing
Jacob in the same part of the anatomy.

   The Talmud, an encyclopedia of Jewish life, contains numerous stories of
devoted slaves. A model of the devoted slave is the biblical figure of
Abraham's slave, Eliezer. Abraham found Eliezer starving by the road to
Damascus. Eliezer was a runaway slave. After Abraham nursed him back to
health, he told the runaway that he was free to leave, but Eliezer, who was
born to serve, vowed never to leave Abraham, having finally found a worthy
Master. When Abraham asked Eliezer to swear loyalty, he told him to "place
your hand upon my thigh."

   The Hebrew word in some passages is 'yarek,' meaning 'thigh' in the Old
Testament. That ritual might derive from the belief that the thigh is a
center of power, probably because it's near the genitals. Some interpreters
argue that it is a swearing upon the genitals, with "under the thigh" being
a euphemism in Hebrew.

   Dr. Lee Stone, in his book "The Power of a Symbol," said that the "most
ancient way of administering the oath was by placing the hand between the
thighs, on the genitals. These were regarded as the Christian and the Jew
regard the Bible, as being the most sacred of tangible things" (10, pg. 45).

   Dr. P. C. Remondino, in his book "History of Circumcision from the
Earliest Times to the Present" said that "It was partly this custom of
swearing, or of affirming, with the hand under the thigh, by the early
Israelites," which led many to believe that their hand was being placed on
the testicles (11, pg. 35).

   It is likely that the passages above inspired the popular claim that
'testify' derived from 'testicle," but the claim is disputed with
alternative derivations and interpretations.   A popular claim also alleges
that Greeks and Romans would touch their own testicles while swearing,
however there is no evidence in support.   The "testicle" theory argues that
the testicles were used for oaths because they represented virility, power,
and represented the man's future generations, and the source of life.

   The new theory asks whether the "inner thigh" posture (the "yarek oath"
or "yarek prayer") acknowledged the man's circumcision.  In Judaism the
circumcision is the male's covenant with God and is also called the
"Covenant of Abraham," because it began with the Patriarch Abraham.  Two
references to the "inner thigh" oath (above) refer to Abraham, whose
circumcision would have been new and revered.  Abraham would have
circumcised his slaves, who later performed "inner thigh" oaths to Abraham.

   The book of Genesis (at 16:1-3, 15-16, 17, 21:1-2) states: When Abram
was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said to him, "I
am God Almighty;" walk before me, and be blameless. And I will make my
covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous." Then
Abram fell on his face; and God said to him, "As for me, this is my covenant
with you: You shall be the ancestor of a multitude of nations. No longer
shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made
you the ancestor of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly
fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. I
will establish my covenant between me and you, and your offspring after you
throughout their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you
and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you, and to your
offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of
Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God."

   God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and
your offspring after you throughout their generations. This is my covenant,
which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every
male among you shall be circumcised. You shall circumcise the flesh of your
foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when
he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one
bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring. Both
the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money must be
circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.
Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin
shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

   Then Abraham took his son Ishmael and all the slaves born in his house
or bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house, and
he circumcised the flesh of their foreskins that very day, as God had said
to him. Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the
flesh of his foreskin. And his son Ishmael was thirteen years old when he
was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin. That very day Abraham and his
son Ishmael were circumcised; and all the men of his house, slaves born in
the house and those bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised
with him. . . .

   The book of Genesis does not state whether the covenant (or contract)
was reciprocal in regard to whether God became circumcised.

   In an earlier example above, Abraham says to his servant "Put, I pray
thee, thy hand under my thigh: And I will make thee swear by the Lord, the
God of heaven, and the God of the earth....." thereby making the act also a
prayer to God and a gesture to Abraham's covenant with God (Abraham's
circumcision).

   The biblical references do not state the posture of any male who placed
his hand(s) on the "inner thigh."  Did he kneel?  It is plausible that the
servant/slave kneeled before his master Abraham when swearing such an
important oath.  It is plausible that the son Joseph kneeled before his
father Israel.  They kneeled in prayer to God, in the same manner as a slave
to his master, and a son to his father.

   Was the oath-taker seated?  If so, the oath-giver might kneel and place
his hands in the lap of the oath-taker.  The word "yarek" is sometimes
interpreted as "lap."

   Many religions, including Judaism, used (and some still use) kneeling,
bowing/prostration and genuflection as prayer postures.   Kneeling was
abandoned in Judaism because of persecution under the Christian religion
during the Holy Roman Empire (the same reason that folded hands were
discontinued) according to "The book of Jewish Knowledge" by Nathan Ausubel
(p. 351).

   Although hands folded in prayer is no longer a part of modern Judaism,
there is still some kneeling.  Some also bow in several prayers, who used to
kneel but discontinued the practice.  Often, kneeling is only performed
during Aleinu prayer on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. Judaism certainly still
uses terminology in its liturgy that refers to kneeling. Three times on Yom
Kippur there are moments to kneel on saying the word "cor'im" which is a
word meaning "to kneel." Additionally, the word for a blessing or
benediction, "berachah" comes from the word "berech" which means knee.

   The biblical references do not state the form of any male's hand(s)
during the "inner thigh" oaths.  Were the hands folded in the posture of
kneeling to pray?  Folded hands would enable an oath-giver to put both hands
upon both inner thighs of the oath-taker.

   A new theory from the historian and journalist Rex Curry asks if praying
(kneeling with hands folded) is a symbolic re-enactment of Abraham's "inner
thigh" or lap prayer, and/or if praying heavenward symbolizes an oath upon
God's "inner thigh" or lap as an acknowledgment of God's covenant with
Abraham (or as an acknowledgment of God's own circumcision and covenant in
reciprocity).

http://members.ij.net/rex/praying.html

associated unfruitful searches for web research:
yarek oath
yarek prayer
thigh oath
thigh prayer
pressed hand prayer
Peter Jason - 03 Jun 2004 06:43 GMT
< chainsawwwwwwwwwed>

You Jews probably stole all this from the gentle Caananites; before you
"slew" them all.
World's first genocide, I'll wager.
Doug Weller - 03 Jun 2004 18:13 GMT
> < chainsawwwwwwwwwed>
>
> You Jews probably stole all this from the gentle Caananites; before you
> "slew" them all.
> World's first genocide, I'll wager.

And you're a bigoted ignorant idiot.

Jews, or at least most of the original people we call Jews, were
Canaanites.

Doug
Peter Jason - 05 Jun 2004 01:38 GMT
> > < chainsawwwwwwwwwed>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Doug

Thank you.
Tell me, why have the Jews always had trouble?
Tom McDonald - 05 Jun 2004 02:33 GMT
>>>< chainsawwwwwwwwwed>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Thank you.
> Tell me, why have the Jews always had trouble?

    Everyone has always had trouble.  What's your point?

    Scratch that.  I think I know your point, and I've reached my
BS limit for one day.

Tom McDonald
Peter Jason - 06 Jun 2004 01:00 GMT
> >>>< chainsawwwwwwwwwed>
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Tom McDonald

Simply that the trouble everbody has is now augmented by the Jews in
Palestine.
The causes of the Middle East predicament are many, and one of them is the
insistence of fundamentalist Jews to invade places occupied by other people.

And what will be the result?  Sensible Jews will leave to live elsewhere, as
sensible Jews and countless others have always done, (even now Russian Jews
are stampeding back to Mother Russia), the Palestinians will reclaim most of
their territory for demographic reasons (more Palestinian babies than Jewish
ones), and the inbred Hasidic maniacs will move to live behind concrete
walls - just as THEY have always done.
Ken Sisby - 15 Jun 2004 12:54 GMT
Doug please correct me if I'm wrong but was the term "Jew" in use back in
biblical days?  I always thought that Jews are descended from some of the
Hebrews that occupied Judea when the monotheistic religion known as Judaism
formed.  So isn't this whole thread redundant?

Ken

> > < chainsawwwwwwwwwed>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Doug
Doug Weller - 15 Jun 2004 16:57 GMT
> Doug please correct me if I'm wrong but was the term "Jew" in use back in
> biblical days?  I always thought that Jews are descended from some of the
> Hebrews that occupied Judea when the monotheistic religion known as Judaism
> formed.  So isn't this whole thread redundant?

Well, Jews = Judeans, ok.  

But the Hebrews? Who are they? Not the Habiru almost certainly. We don't
really know.

So, I'd still say that the people we call Jews are mostly the descendants
of the Canaanites.

Doug

> Ken
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>
>> Doug
o8TY - 16 Jun 2004 19:16 GMT
> > Doug please correct me if I'm wrong but was the term "Jew" in use back in
> > biblical days?  I always thought that Jews are descended from some of the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> So, I'd still say that the people we call Jews are mostly the descendants
> of the Canaanites.

Maybe Jews = Judeans = Ioides, the descendents of Io. Greek myth says Io
left Argos in Greece for Egypt where her son Epaphos reigned as one of the
Uksos. The expulsion of the Uksos from Egypt certainly compares with the
exodus of the Hebrews.
Ken Sisby - 03 Jun 2004 18:15 GMT
I had always thought that the xian custom of holding the hands palm-to-palm
was borrowed from the Hindus who do the same thing.  Since Jesus evidently
studied religion in India he would have picked up the habit there.

Ken

>      An amazing new theory asks if praying (kneeling with hands folded)
> symbolizes touching God's thigh or circumcision.  The internet url for this
[quoted text clipped - 190 lines]
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
rexitis - 04 Jun 2004 13:27 GMT
Thanks for your comment.  Of course, the original post argues a connection
back to Abraham.  So, under your question, that would leave open whether the
"thigh prayer" from Abraham inspired the Hindus who then inspired other
people later.  In addition, any India connection for Jesus seems more
uncertain than the evidence that people in his community were already using
"hands in prayer."   Perhaps your question is better posed as whether there
is an India connection to Abraham or his associates before him, or other
predecessors of Jesus.  Thanks again.

> I had always thought that the xian custom of holding the hands palm-to-palm
> was borrowed from the Hindus who do the same thing.  Since Jesus evidently
> studied religion in India he would have picked up the habit there.
>
> Ken
Ken Sisby - 27 Jun 2004 17:48 GMT
Your response seems to suggest that, in your opinion, the mythical Abraham
or Abhrim or whatever his name was should be viewed as some kind of
progenitor of religion.  However, there is no proof of any kind that Abraham
ever existed.  So it is hard to imagine how he could have influenced the
entire Hindu culture.  Further, if there was an Abraham who came from the
city of Ur in present day Iraq, there isn't even any mythology suggesting
that he travelled to India.  And finally, the mythological figure of Abraham
is purported to have live just a few thousand years ago, whereas the Vedic
culture of the Indus Valley was building great cities and civilizations at
least 5 or 6 thousand years ago and probably several thousand more, thus
predating all Mesopotamian and Egyptian civilizations.  Indeed the biblical
figure of Zarathustra (the inventor of the Devil...from the Vedic Devas),
who supposedly had much to do with the origins of the Hebrew faith (that
evolved into Judaism) refers to the Persian prophet Zoroaster who founded
his own religion after breaking off from the Hindu religion called Sonaten.

Many of the arguments for Jesus having studied religion in India are based
upon the extensive borrowing that he did from Buddhism.  The virgin birth
was a direct steal from the teachings of Buddha who died long before Jesus
was born, or the idea of turning the other cheek (another quote from
Buddha).  Indeed, so much of the teachings of Jesus were borrowed from
Buddhism that many scholars believe that Jesus was trying to fuse Buddhism
with early Judaism.  This even applies to his claim to be an avatar in which
mythical gods appear in human form as Buddha was.  The Bodhisattva (Buddha),
or messiah in Christianity appeared in human form through Prince Siddhartha
(later known as the Buddha ) to save mankind.  The concept of the avatar is
old in Vedic culture, Rom, Krishna (Christ?), Buddha and I believe that
there were seven others.  The xian concept of half man/half god or the son
of god is exactly the same as the Vedic avatars.  There are just too many
similarities for this to be a coincidence and it was all done in India
first.  Of course devout xians, Muslims and Jews will be uncomfortable with
this because judeo-xian-islamic cosmogony places themselves as the origin
(but don't all religions?).

In the days of Jesus, the Greeks were the scholars of the day and the golden
age of Greece coincided quite well with the spread of Buddhism (Hinduism
without the politics).  Greek literature was full of borrowings from the
Vedas and Hindu culture, Plato's Republic being a direct steal from the
Hindu class system and possibly a reaction to the depoliticising and the
attempted elimination of the Hindu caste system during the Buddhist
revolution.

It is curious to note that the Greek language is descended from Sanskrit.
The Greek term "Cristos" or "Kristos" was adopted by xians to give Jesus the
title of "Christ".  About five thousand years ago, the massive civil war in
modern day India was called the Mahabharat in which Prince Krishna sided
with the weaker side and won the day.  There ensued a massive exodus from
Bharat (India) as the losing side was exiled.  It is unknown where these
people went, however the lack of Caucasoid features in East Asian people
suggest that the exodus went to the West.  Followers of Max Mueller's much
disproved Aryan invasion myth will no doubt jump on this, but it has been
suggested that the inter-relationship between most Western languages and
Sanskrit was the result of this exodus.  Remembering that this exodus
happened millennia before European civilization or even Mesopotamian
civilization (from where the mythical figure of Abraham came) and
unfortunately the ancient Vedic civilization wrote in a hieroglyphic script
that has yet to be deciphered.

Is it possible that the ballad of Krishna found it's way to Greece two and a
half millennia later as the term "Kristos"?  Possibly.  However it is
certainly feasible that the xian custom of holding the hands together palm
to palm was borrowed from the Hindus who were doing it before the existence
of ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia and Greece.  Before the existence of Hebrews
or xians or any Middle Eastern religion surviving today.

Ken

> Thanks for your comment.  Of course, the original post argues a connection
> back to Abraham.  So, under your question, that would leave open whether the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----
rexitis - 08 Jun 2004 13:53 GMT
Update: A Rabbi recently stated "We fold our hands in prayer of 'Shmoneh
Esreh' (the main portion of prayer - the 18 blessings) - (source: "Code of
Jewish Law" O.C. 95:3; MB 6 there).  For Kabbalistic reasons, we do not
interlace our right and left hand fingers together - (source: "Ta'amei
Minhagim" 511)."

An amazing new article explores the origins of a common prayer posture
(kneeling with hands folded). the internet url for this article is
http://members.ij.net/rex/praying.html and at http://RexCurry.net
R.Schenck - 17 Jun 2004 21:58 GMT
> An amazing new theory asks if praying (kneeling with hands folded)
> symbolizes touching God's thigh or circumcision.  The internet url for this
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> decreed that Jews cease folding their hands in prayer because their
> oppressors used folded hands.

Charlemagne's group were oppressing people in judea?  

And to get back at them the jews didn't put their hands together when they prayed?

Gee, i dunno..

snip
Inger E Johansson - 17 Jun 2004 22:02 GMT
> > An amazing new theory asks if praying (kneeling with hands folded)
> > symbolizes touching God's thigh or circumcision.  The internet url for this
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Gee, i dunno..

And pray tell us what this has to do with archaeology? History maybe.
Religion definitely but archaeology?

Inger E

> snip
Tony Smith - 17 Jun 2004 23:16 GMT
> And pray tell us what this has to do with archaeology? History maybe.

[Lines inserted here to allow Inger the k00k to rabbit on about
copyright]

> Religion definitely but archaeology?

About as much as 99% of the tripe you post has to do with archaeology
Inger dear.

Tony Smith
 
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