History Forum / General / General Topics / October 2007

They are "good points" only if you ignore the whole, choose to remain
ignorant,  and swallow the significant falsehoods and misrepresentations in
it.   And they are many.

Hufschmid appears to be basing this "argument" on the book by James Bacque,
"Other Losses".

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/b/ftp.py?people/b/bacque.james/bacque.002
"Some comments
on the work were made by Prof. Stephen Ambrose, director of the Eisenhower
Center at the University of New-Orleans (a thorough refutation appears
in the NYT, Feb. 24, 1991). Ambrose does admit that there was mistreatment
of German POW's in the spring and summer of 1945, but adds:

"When scholars do the necessary research, they will find Mr. Bacque's
work to be worse than worthless. It is seriously - nay, spectacularly -
flawed in its most fundamental aspects". For example, Bacque's
extrapolation of one million deaths is based on on a typographical error
in a single army medical report. Ambrose wrote "[Bacque] arrived at
his most basic conclusion, a death rate at all camps of 30 percent, by
dividing the 21,000 deaths by the 70,000 prisoners [listed in the
report]... all other figures in the document make it clear that that the
correct number of the prisoners was 700,000. This would make the death
rate not 30 percent but 3 percent".

In concluding his arguments against Bacque's spurious research, Ambrose
wrote "Mr. Bacque is wrong on every major charge and nearly all his
minor ones". He than quotes Albert Cowdrey, a military historian for
the Department of the Army: "Surely, [Bacque] has reason to be satisfied
with his achievement. He has no reputation as a historian to lose, and
_Other_Losses_ can only enhance his standing as a writer of fiction"."

Now, Auschwitz was comprised of over 40 subcamps.   Some portions were for
slave labour, some for murder.

So what parts of these camps, exactly,  were you both wanting to ignore?
How, exactly, does having an extermination camp translate to being "like
prisons everywhere"?

And in total, there were over 10,000 camps, some lasting only a short
while - the Einsatzgruppen followed the troops, set up camp, located the
Jews and other "undesirables", killed them, buried them, and moved on.

These were not remotely like "prisons everywhere".   They were killing
fields, their sole purpose murder, based on the National Socialist racial
ideologies.    Yet Mr. Hufschmid says nothing about them.

Nazi death camps were not like "prisons everywere", or like the US
internment camps for Japanese-Americans.   The Americans didn't use these
people for slave labour, or engage in an attempt to kill them all.

No, the American  internments were not just, but they are *not* comparable
to the Nazi acts.

Please explain why Hufschmid ignores the Nazi use of slave labour and the
practice of working prisoners to death.    He makes a very quick reference
to prisoners being used "as cheap labour".   In fact  it was *slave labour*
and death was entirely acceptable.   Only production mattered.

As to the simply false proposition that it's illegal in some European
countries to "investigage" the camps - please explain how it is that none of
the partitipants in the Functionalist vs. Intentionalist debate, who have
been doing *exactly* this for quite some years, have gone to jail or had
their careers threatened for their partiticpation.   Please explain how the
camps have been studied and the subject of scientific tests, including core
samples that have found large amounts of ash and bone in the locations where
the mass graves were described, without jail sentences.

What *is* illegal in a total of 13 countries, all but one of which are in
the areas Nazis destroyed and engaged in mass murder,  is promotion of
National Socialism and the ideologies that led to this murder and
destruction,  and denial of or excusing the crimes committed in the name of
these ideologies.     Those things are *not* innocent investigations of
history.

But the people in those countries know very well what happened and why, and
they don't want it back.

Examination of the history is NOT illegal.   Promotion of National Socialism
and its ideologies is illegal.

One can certainly investigate the history of the period in detail  without
breaking those laws.   It happens every day in those very countries, and
those engaged in it don't go to jail.

Try paying attention to the other activities of those who have been jailed
under these laws.

It's certainly worth noting that in a number of countries, the historical
examination of certain other events is seriously restricted by law, and by
"seriously" I mean that the death penalty can be applied.     Yet Mr.
Hufschmid says nothing about that.

So the real questions are- why is it that Mr. Hufschmid doesn't want you to
know about what actually happened at these camps?  Why does he feel such a
need to try to mislead and misinform?

Does Mr. Hufschmid believe you won't check what he says - and would he be
right?

And why is it that he only complains about restrictions on promoting
National Socialism and excusing its crimes,  while ignoring the deaths and
imprisonment and persecution of real journalists in other countries?   Is it
a coincidence that those other countries tend to be the major consumers and
promoters of Holocaust denial materials?

Unfortunately, your pain and wholeness apparently doesn't help you excercise
your critical facilities.

You might want to work on that.

Hope this helps.
-pk

I believe in Thierisenstadt they were allowed to send "approved" emails. I
sure would love to see documentation to prove they got mail at Auschwitz.
Same for the personal lockers.

As to the photographer, so what? He was German and taking propaganda
pictures.

What a fascinating fantasy life you lead.

Leading Revisionist Scholar snow, it would be unfair, not to mention
inconsiderate, for anyone to label you as a liar without giving you
the opportunity to respond by supporting your specious assertions
with documentary evidence.

Question 1:

On July 25, 2007, you made two claims, to wit:

1. That no one was gassed at Auschwitz or Majdanek
2. That the "gas chamber in aushwitz were build by russians after the
  so called liberation."

Please document your claims.

Question 2: On July 26, 2007, you wrote:

"I am still having a problem with the myth of gassing the jews."

Please support your assertion with documentary evidence that homocidal
gassings are a "myth."

Question 3:

On July 26, 2007, you claimed that, "jews come out with awards so they
could award other jews and it is all based on how much you paid and to
whom and actually has very little to do with achievements."

Please document these claims.

Question 4:

On July 29, 2007, you claimed, "...McVay in one of the threads stated
that 'if you question holocaust then you are automatically anti-Semite."

Please provide an exact Google Groups link to any article in which
I made such a statement.

Question 5:

In article <XEpri.55$3...@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>,

you wrote:

"In 1931 Stromberg v. California, the Jews defended Communists' free speech
rights. Six decades later, in R. v. Keegstra, the Jews sued to prevent the
teaching of an alternative to the Exterminationist theory known as
"Revisionism" -- and won."

Please provide documentary evidence that Mr. Keegstra was "sued by Jews" as
you claim, and show how the Supreme Court of Canada lied when it said:

  Mr. James Keegstra was a high school teacher in Eckville,  
Alberta, from the early 1970's until his dismissal in 1982.  
In 1984, Mr. Keegstra was charged under s. 319(2) (then  
281.2(2)) of the Criminal Code with unlawfully promoting  
hatred against an identifiable group by communicating  
anti-Semitic statements to his students. He was convicted by  
a jury in a trial before McKenzie J. of the Alberta Court of  
Queen's Bench.

  Mr. Keegstra's teachings attributed various evil  
qualities to Jews. He thus described Jews to his pupils as  
''treacherous'', ''subversive'', ''sadistic'',  
''money-loving'', ''power hungry'' and ''child killers''. He  
taught his classes that Jewish people seek to destroy  
Christianity and are responsible for depressions, anarchy,  
chaos, wars and revolution. According to Mr. Keegstra, Jews  
''created the Holocaust to gain sympathy'' and, in contrast  
to the open and honest Christians, were said to be  
deceptive, secretive and inherently evil. Mr. Keegstra  
expected his students to reproduce his teachings in class  
and on exams. If they failed to do so, their marks suffered.

  Prior to his trial, Mr. Keegstra applied to the Court of  
Queen's Bench in Alberta for an order quashing the charge on  
a number of grounds, the primary one being that s. 319(2) of  
the Criminal Code unjustifiably infringed his freedom of  
expression as guaranteed by s. 2(b) of the Charter. Among  
the other grounds of appeal was the allegation that the  
defence of truth found in s. 319(3)(a) of the Code violates  
the Charter's presumption of innocence. The application was  
dismissed by Quigley J., and Mr. Keegstra was thereafter  
tried and convicted. He then appealed his conviction to the  
Alberta Court of Appeal, raising the same Charter issues.  
The Court of Appeal unanimously accepted his argument, and  
it is from this judgment that the Crown appeals.

  The Attorneys-General of Canada, Quebec, Ontario,  
Manitoba and New Brunswick, the Canadian Jewish Congress,  
Interamicus, the League for Human Rights of B'nai Brith,  
Canada, and the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund  
(L.E.A.F.) have intervened in this appeal in support of the  
Crown. The Canadian Civil Liberties Association has  
intervened in support of striking down the impugned  
legislation.

Question 6:

In article <FNpri.56$3x...@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>, you wrote:

"Why is it that most if not all Holocaust supporting articles are written by
Jews or are sponsored by Jewish organization."

Please prove your claim by providing data which supports it. List all "Holocaust
supporting" articles and document the Jewish background of the authors.

Question 7:

On July 30, 2007, you wrote:

"...it was actually American Jews that sold iron and oil to Nazi
Germany by using Sweden as a proxy since American jews couldn't
deal directly with Nazi Germany.

"Sweden banks that financed it were run by Jews, as well as proxy
companies that were setup by jewish bank owners. Swedish people
didn't have a clue what was being done behind their backs."

Please document these assertions, naming the "American Jews"
involved and the Swedish banks that were "setup by Jewish bank
owners."

Question 8:

On July 31, 2007, you asked, "Why is it that most if not all Holocaust supporting
articles are written by Jews or are sponsored by Jewish organization."

Please provide the data upon which you based these assertions. Include a
comprehensive list of "Holocaust supporting articles <sic>" and their authors,
and show how each article is either written by a Jew or "sponsored by
Jewish organizations."

Question 9:

On August 1, 2007, you wrote, "[Wikipedia] is edited by members
who choose to exaggerate their own race or religion, and jews are
the forefront of such edits."

Please document your claims - particularly the one about the Jews
being in the "forefront of such edits."

Question 10:

On August 5, 2007, you wrote:

...and...

Let's visit http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/maidanek/ and see what we
find, shall we?

In http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/maidanek/commission-07, we find the Polish
Commission (notNizkor) saying, "The Polish-Soviet Extraordinary
Commission finds that during the four years the Majdanek Extermination
Camp was in existence the Hitlerite butchers, on thc direct orders of
their criminal government, exterminated by means of wholesalc shoincluding Snyder, who
wrote, ""It is
estimated that 1.5 million inmates were gassed at Maidanek."

(Snyder does NOT, the assertions of Leading Revisionist Scholar snow
notwithstanding, claim that all the victims were Jewish - that is,
he was lying - again.)

The same article quotes Davidowitz (1,380,000 dead) and Sachar (500,000 dead), while the
IFZ is quoted as saying that 50,000 *Jews* were murdered there.

The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust is then cited, in a piece on Majdanek written by
Lublin University's Zygmunt Mankowski, who wrote "close to 500,000 passed
through. Of those, according to current (1990) estimates, 360,000 died,
sixty percent from camp conditions, and forty percent from gassing, hanging,
or being shot."

Mankowski does not, contrary to your blather, claim that all the victims were Jews.

Now we get to the spot where NIZKOR says something, to wit:

"I suspect it may be impossible to determine the numbers, but this article
(EoH) struck me as reasonable, if for no other reason its mention of the
transport records and the trials, plus the bibliographic data. I'd
appreciate it if someone would check the earlier sources cited to determine
if any orignial source is offered, and get back to us."

Please retract your lies, Leading Revisionist Scholar snow,
now tha they have been exposed.

Question 11:

In article <CiJwi.1032$924....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>, on August 15,
2007, you authored an article which claimed, quote, "Kenneth McVay a
pedophile and a child molester who molested his own daughter..."

Please document when and where any of my children have
made such statements or admit you cannot.

Question 12:

In article <TlJwi.1033$924....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net>, posted on
August 15, 2007, you made the following allegation:

"NIZKOR's self appointed director Ken McVay involved in tax fraud."

Document your allegation that I am involved in tax fraud, or retract it.

Tax someone has committed such an offense, by all means report
to the federal authorites post haste. Not doing so is, in and of
itself, a crime.

  Yeh,  yeh,  yeh.  But don't forget these:

  In a memo written on September 8 1942,  Kurt Prufer of the
firm "Topf and Sons" stated that Auschwitz officials are not
satisfied with a cremation capacity of 2,650 corpses per day,
and "we should deliver more ovens as quickly as possible"
(http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/topf/).

  Two of the Auschwitz-Birkenau crematoriums:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/krema3.shtml
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/krema4.shtml

  Cremation furnaces in an Auschwitz-Birkenau crematorium:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/furnaces.shtml

  A "gassing cellar" in an Auschwitz-Birkenau crematorium:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/Vergasungkeller.shtml

  But as everyone else figured out by now,  not everybody was there
to be executed.  Many thousands of political prisoners were held
in the camp,  as well as numerous others used for slave labor.  Also,
there were thousands of SS staff stationed in the camp.

  Any chance you'll ever grasp this rather simple fact?

RJ.