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History Forum / General / Medieval Period / August 2008Medieval musicans and workers
When we work often it pleasanter to work with music playing. Recently I was reading of Greek workers working in Israel in the late 1940s before popular radio came to the region. A team of men would be hired to work on a job. Each of these men paid a small sum to have a musician play for them while they worked. I presume just like us, they found it pleasanter to work with music. My question was this common in medieval times? If a team of workers were working often would a musician be hired to play for them while they worked. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** > When we work often it pleasanter to work with music playing. > > Recently I was reading of Greek workers working in Israel in the late > 1940s before popular radio came to the region. ??? I somehow think not...  SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. : > When we work often it pleasanter to work with music playing. : > : > Recently I was reading of Greek workers working in Israel in the late : > 1940s before popular radio came to the region. : ??? : I somehow think not... I agree, but they well may have made their own mouth music like sailors have who sing to keep the rhythm. Wendy Baker > > When we work often it pleasanter to work with music playing. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I somehow think not... It is an eye witness report in the book O Jerusalem! by Larry Collins , Dominique Lapierre ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** >> > When we work often it pleasanter to work with music playing. >> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It is an eye witness report in the book That there was no popular radio in the Middle East in the late 'forties? SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > >> > When we work often it pleasanter to work with music playing. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > That there was no popular radio in the Middle East in the late 'forties? I know the BBC, had some channels there. Many homes had a radio. I never read it was popular for anything but news. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** > > > When we work often it pleasanter to work with music playing. > > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > O Jerusalem! > by Larry Collins , Dominique Lapierre You cut out what he was replying to: not the Greek workers bit, but the question as to whether medieval workers would hire musicians to play while they worked. SignatureMary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar) You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo > When we work often it pleasanter to work with music playing. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > working often would a musician be hired to play for them while they > worked. I can't really visualize much of anything less likely. SignatureMary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar) You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo > When we work often it pleasanter to work with music playing. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > working often would a musician be hired to play for them while they > worked. I can't be definitive, but I don't know of any a) descriptions of it or b) know of any manuscript depictions of players playing while workers work > > When we work often it pleasanter to work with music playing. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I can't be definitive, but I don't know of any a) descriptions of it or > b) know of any manuscript depictions of players playing while workers work As far as I know, workers and specially in the medieval times were somehow in a lower class or something between mid and lower class. And I think also that workers at that time were mainly and largely composed of craftsmen, like smiths and carpenters for example. Musicians was most of the time well-known to be existing in the courts of the nobles, which is of course a higher class. The workers themselves "might" have developped a way to kill boredom while working and break the routine let's say by singing, just like M.Baker said. Otherwise, I think musicians themselves, and it was a profession of a great deal at that time, was only and mainly existing around the nobles. Who else could afford such an entertainment? > Otherwise, I think musicians themselves, and it was a profession of a > great deal at that time, was only and mainly existing around the > nobles. Who else could afford such an entertainment? It does not take that much to learn to play an instrument and sing. My grandmother was a fantastic singer and a reasonable piano player. She was entirely self taught. She would not be much of a worker but she could entertain. If someone offered to pay her some money to entertain the workers, she would have jumped at the chance. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** > > Otherwise, I think musicians themselves, and it was a profession of a > > great deal at that time, was only and mainly existing around the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > could entertain. If someone offered to pay her some money to entertain > the workers, she would have jumped at the chance. You have a REALLY inflated idea of how much "money" medieval workers had in their pockets. SignatureMary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar) You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >> > Otherwise, I think musicians themselves, and it was a profession of a >> > great deal at that time, was only and mainly existing around the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You have a REALLY inflated idea of how much "money" medieval workers had > in their pockets. Pockets? As for being self taught musicians, I very much doubt that any medieval worker who was not a guild member would ever have enough liquid assets to purchase a musical instrument. Cheap musical instruments of reasonable quality that allow anyone to learn to play are a feature of the last hundred years in the West, and are still an unimagined luxury for most of the world... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > "erilar" <drache@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message > > You have a REALLY inflated idea of how much "money" medieval workers had > > in their pockets. > > Pockets? ooops--caught out of period 8-) The thought of medieval workers being able to pay musicians to play while they worked is just so funny in the first place that I slipped in a modernism, too, I guess. > As for being self taught musicians, I very much doubt that any medieval > worker who was not a guild member would ever have enough liquid assets to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to play are a feature of the last hundred years in the West, and are still > an unimagined luxury for most of the world... SignatureMary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar) You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo >>"erilar" <drache@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > being able to pay musicians to play while they worked is just so funny > in the first place that I slipped in a modernism, too, I guess. Now now, pockets are a medieval invention, the Middle English form being poket, of course originally a pouch attached to the belt rather than something attached to the clothing. That such a pouch carried coin so far as I know is an early modern innovation though, but not positive on that. > >>"erilar" <drache@chibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > far as I know is an early modern innovation though, but not positive on > that. I didn't attach the word to what I think of as a pouch when I oopsed. But I still can't see hiring--with a snack or anything else--someone to play music while others work in the medieval period. Singing or chanting WHILE working, perhaps, and shepherds with wooden whistles, but in both cases the worker is producing the music, not hiring someone else to do it. SignatureMary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar) You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo On Aug 29, 10:56 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: > > In article <MPG.23225d3ca65cdedd989...@free.teranews.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > to play are a feature of the last hundred years in the West, and are still > an unimagined luxury for most of the world... Home made pipes? Drums? Bodums? Sticks to hit together? I suppose that metal spoons would be too luxurious. Professional quality insturments might be out of reach but I think you may be underestimating workers ability to produce simple instruments. : On Aug 29, 10:56?am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> : wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] : > to play are a feature of the last hundred years in the West, ?and are still : > an unimagined luxury for most of the world... : Home made pipes? Drums? Bodums? Sticks to hit together? I suppose : that metal spoons would be too luxurious. : Professional quality insturments might be out of reach but I think you : may be underestimating workers ability to produce simple : instruments. wooden spoons work. they are still used in this fashion as a rhythm insturment in parts of Canada. learned about them at an elderhostel Wendy Baker Home made pipes? Drums? Bodums? Sticks to hit together? I suppose that metal spoons would be too luxurious. Professional quality insturments might be out of reach but I think you may be underestimating workers ability to produce simple instruments. --------------------- No I don't. I play the bones, I have several sets. My best set was made by a professional maker in Ireland and cost quite a lot of money, my cheapest set I made myself, but the bone used could have been used to make soup... Making drums is not something you can do sitting down by the fire... SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. > Home made pipes? Drums? Bodums? Sticks to hit together? I suppose > that metal spoons would be too luxurious. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Making drums is not something you can do sitting down by the fire... Actually it is....you need a hollow base and leather scraped thin and able to be stretched over the opening in the hollow base....if relaxing by the fire, still something easily done at home. >> Home made pipes? Drums? Bodums? Sticks to hit together? I suppose >> that metal spoons would be too luxurious. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > to be stretched over the opening in the hollow base....if relaxing by the > fire, still something easily done at home. And the evidence for home made musical instruments in the medieval period is what? SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>>Home made pipes? Drums? Bodums? Sticks to hit together? I suppose >>>that metal spoons would be too luxurious. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > And the evidence for home made musical instruments in the medieval period is > what? Archaeological. > Home made pipes? Drums? Bodums? Sticks to hit together? I suppose > that metal spoons would be too luxurious. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Making drums is not something you can do sitting down by the fire... Would you say for someone that does not have drums, a homemade drum is better then nothing. A also other instruments like flutes are not that hard to make. Natives have made such instruments since ancient times. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** >> Home made pipes? Drums? Bodums? Sticks to hit together? I suppose >> that metal spoons would be too luxurious. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Natives have made such instruments since ancient times. They most certainly have. But in a guild based and highly stratified society I very much doubt that anyone would be learning to play to a level that was acceptable in company. SignatureWilliam Black I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach Time for tea. >>>Home made pipes? Drums? Bodums? Sticks to hit together? I suppose >>>that metal spoons would be too luxurious. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > But in a guild based and highly stratified society I very much doubt that > anyone would be learning to play to a level that was acceptable in company. Guild based? What gives you the idea that every aspect of non-noble medeival life was guild based? Or that there was a "musical instrument makers guild"? Or that the guilds operated the same in every medieval kingdom and throughout the entire medieval period? Guilds generally were for craftsmen rather than performers. Later other types of guilds were formed and offered protections esp. if they had charters from the king...but these generally applied only to cities and major towns. More rural areas were pretty much left alone and did as they pleased. > >> Home made pipes? Drums? Bodums? Sticks to hit together? I suppose > >> that metal spoons would be too luxurious. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > But in a guild based and highly stratified society I very much doubt that > anyone would be learning to play to a level that was acceptable in company. I recall stories of Russian peasants before WW1, after work meeting up singing and playing instruments. A similar situation is related in the book Daily Life in Medieval Europe by Jeffrey L. Singman. Peasants dancing and playing on home made flutes. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** >>>>Otherwise, I think musicians themselves, and it was a profession of a >>>>great deal at that time, was only and mainly existing around the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > worker who was not a guild member would ever have enough liquid assets to > purchase a musical instrument. For many instruments, they didn't need to, they could be made easily enough from materials that they had to hand. A pipe, a recorder, stringed instruments, percussives....all ready to hand and found in archaeological digs for the period. > In article <MPG.23225d3ca65cdedd989...@free.teranews.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > You have a REALLY inflated idea of how much "money" medieval workers had > in their pockets. Objects of value, perhaps a loaf of bread or a turnip or two? Based on no knowledge of the issue at all, I don't have any serious problem with this idea although as a non-musical type I have a problem imaging why anyone would want to have music at work. Remember the readers in Havana cigar factories. I think one could suggest something similar although I would tend to think it might be a chant leader or someone setting a pace with a drum rather than concert level musicians playing. I've never been at a thrashing that required flails, ( pitchforks are bad enough) but possibly an activity like that would make music useful John Kane Kingston ON Canada : Objects of value, perhaps a loaf of bread or a turnip or two? : Based on no knowledge of the issue at all, I don't have any serious : problem with this idea although as a non-musical type I have a problem : imaging why anyone would want to have music at work. : Remember the readers in Havana cigar factories. : I think one could suggest something similar although I would tend to : think it might be a chant leader or someone setting a pace with a drum : rather than concert level musicians playing. : I've never been at a thrashing that required flails, ( pitchforks are : bad enough) but possibly an activity like that would make music useful : John Kane Kingston ON Canada When we have our apartment painted, the workers always want to listen to music on our radios while they work. Now if they turned up a Medieval radio, that would be of some help:-) Wendy Baker >>In article <MPG.23225d3ca65cdedd989...@free.teranews.com>, >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Remember the readers in Havana cigar factories. Now there, that jogs a memory. Gregory of Tours records the wife of a bishop reading the Bible to the workmen building the church. Not sure how common it is, but at least there's a bit of evidence. Seems to me there was something of the same in the LIfe of Columbanus that I'll have to confirm. |
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