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The most modern view on medieval warfare :-)

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am05@hotmail.com - 29 Jun 2009 20:51 GMT
1.Merovingian warfare

Very few things are definitely known about the Franks:

They had been named after slightly misspelled currency unit. It is not
totally clear, which exactly because there used to be numerous
candidates within BT (Luxemburg and Liechtenstein being the most
probable ones).

Initially, they were ruled by the Merovingian dynasty named after its
founder, Clovis. Later, this dynasty had been replaced by the
Carolingian dynasty named after its founder, Pepin [1]. Later, in a
total break-up with a historical tradition, they switched to a
Capetian dynasty founded by a person nicknamed ‘Capet’. Why brother of
a Capetian king founded Valouis dynasty and why this name was later
extended to the remote relatives is anybody’s guess.

Initial Frankish military successes had been attributed to a
revolutionary tactics: unlike many other Germanic nations with their
traditional attachment to a fist-fighting, they were defeating their
opponents by throwing various items at them. After a short period of
experimentation [2], they came to an obvious conclusion that the most
effective way to win is to throw a book at your opponent [3]. Of
course, to throw the book, you should have one. Initially, this posed
a problem (books had been in a rather short supply in a Lower Rhine
area and the Franks had to limit themselves to throwing the axes) but
after Clovis converted to Catholic Christianity the book supply ceased
to be a problem and his successors kept extending their initial
domain.

Unfortunately, while being quite effective against the infantry, this
tactics proved to be of a limited usefulness against the invading
mounted Muslims [4]. Under the leadership of Charles Martel some
important developments took place: (a) cognac of his name had been
marketed [5] and (b) the Franks figured out how to ride horses [6]. Of
course, a traditional description of the Frankish army at Tour
describes them as a frozen wall but it was recently proven by Bernard
Bachrach [7] that this was just a misleading metaphor [8], an opinion
with which we are in a complete agreement.

During the Pepinish- and post-Pepinish times, Frankish warfare passed
through a truly revolutionary change: if it was close to impossible to
put Merovingian Frank on a horseback, it became almost as impossible
to take Carolingian one off the horse. Of course, there was a
transitional period when the people had been somewhat confused by the
ever-evolving regulations and sometimes, instead of coming at the
assembly point on a horseback wearing chain mail and carrying sword,
shield and helmet, a landowner would come on foot with the herd of 50
– 60 cows [9]. Or, as a result of taking regulations regarding raising
infantry from the small holders literarily, the local count would end
up with a cart filled up with the parts of a human anatomy [10]. Or,
due to a presumably unintentional [11] misspelling in the instruction,
person would find himself entitled to take not simply water and wood
but also unspecified “loot” from the villages on his way. Even the
seemingly clear regulations like forbidding to toast each other under
the pain of enforced sobriety, did not always produce the intended
result because the inventive Franks simply switched to toasting
themselves or drinking the health of the ladies present and absent or,
even better, drinking the royal health [12].
All of the above used to keep the opponents in a state of a permanent
confusion [13] and, as a result, the Franks ended up with having a
huge empire on their hands.

2. Post-Frankish (knightly) Warfare

As was wisely remarked by Verbruggen, one of the most important
developments in the medieval warfare was creation of a comfortable
saddle. Being supported by such a saddle both in front and back, a
properly armored knight could feel himself quite safe from anything
except the annoying gnats and mosquitoes [14]. Of  course, there was
still an issue of falling sidewise but, as was time and again pointed
by the same author, a solution was found in packing knightly
formations so densely that the knights simply had nowhere to fell
[15].

In addition to these basic skills, the knights had been taught to
follow various commands, like “Heel”, “Sit”, “Stay”, “Come”, “Stand”,
“Go Ahead” and, in the most disciplined bodies, like the Templars
[16], even “Fetch”, “Roll Over!” and “Leave it”. Of course, there were
reasonable limits to such training and even the Knights Templar had
regulations saying that a knight may leave formation without
permission if he sees (a) a fellow Christian attacked by a Muslim, or
(b) some nice looking wench, or (c) some unattended (or inadequately
guarded) piece of property [17].

Signals by the standards and trumpets also played an important role in
the knightly warfare. To start with, a knight was supposed to fight
only as long as (a) he can see a standard of his superior and (b) can
hear his side’s trumpets. These rules were, of course, of a great
practical importance for the most talented medieval strategists and
tacticians: with a proper bribe discretely passed to the opponent’s
standard bearer and trumpeter, an outstanding victory could be easily
won without unnecessary bloodshed and with a minimal risk. The main
obstacle to a full-scaled implementation of this strategy was a
notorious shortage of coin during the Middle Ages [18]. On an
individual level, a knight could easily pledge confusion due to a
short slightness or inability to recognize friendly trumpeters from
those of the enemy and discretely leave the field with a good chance
to avoid the law suit from his feudal superior.

One of the big battle-field problems was to keep the knightly
formations from loosing their tight order: unless propped on the sides
(by the sticks, varlets, some natural obstacle, etc.) the outermost
riders could fell to the right or left (depending on the flank), with
the others following. Also, any uneven ground could potentially lead
to the same result. This is why most of the scores had been settled by
the tournaments: a leveled jousting ground was ideally suited for the
knightly warfare. The rare cases when the knights broke this rule [19]
tended to end in a total disaster.

Then, there was an issue of a discipline. While the knights could
reasonably well retreat, get together and attack again, providing the
enemy was totally static [20], doing so with the moving enemy posed
the whole number of problems, especially outside the jousting area.
And, when the enemy was fleeing, things could turn into a total
disaster for a victorious side due to a disorganized pursuit: riding
alone left knight totally free to fall (sidewise) from the horse, to
damage himself with his own weaponry [21], or even worse, to get his
horse damaged. In this area, things deteriorated noticeably comparing
to the Viking times [22].

Short of the problems with discipline, formations like those described
above were only marginally efficient against each other but had been a
seemingly winning formula against unarmored and, preferably, unarmed
infantry. Unfortunately, the knights as a class suffered from the
numerous phobias and subconscious fears which eventually lead to their
extinction.

Historically, they started with a fear _for_ their horses but, due to
a low level of a medieval medical science and general scarcity of the
shrinks [23], this unattended problem gradually evolved into the fear
_of_ the elephants, camels, hyenas, mice and, finally, infantrymen.

3. Medieval Foot

Things were more or less under control as long as the foot soldiers
remained unarmed and preferably remained out of sight [24].
Unfortunately, they started appearing on the battlefields, 1st just
due to a plain oversight and then being intentionally placed there by
exceptionally weird-thinking leaders.

As species, they started with being classified as those who will run
away if they have enough brains [25]. However, due to a pure
statistics, on few occasions they had been placed in a situation where
(a) they could not run away but (b) their opponent was either too weak
or too drunk or too scatterbrained to arrange for their proper
slaughter and was, as a result, slaughtered himself. Out of these few
lucky occasions, the foot soldiers got their reputation and eventually
were considered worthy of a more explicit classification and
eventually they were subdivided into 2 broad categories (a) those
holding the long sticks and (b) those who would throw sticks at you.
Both categories proved to be equally repulsive from the knightly point
of view.

Unfortunately, Verbruggen’s book more or less ends up on this sad
stage and, without an alternative source of wisdom, one has to assume
that there is nothing else to say about the Medieval warfare……

_____________________________________________________
Notes:

[1] Frankish naming rules always had been a little bit confusing for
outsiders.
[2] Including throwing stones, axes, small-sized animals (dead and
alive), and simply throwing up.
[3] By definition, this is the worst thing you can do to anyone.
[4] Not only could they ride out of the book-throwing range but they
also refused to pay attention to any book not written on Arabic.
[5] As far as the Franks had been concerned, high-quality booze was a
cornerstone of any successful warfare.
[6] Traditionally, they had been only riding chariots carried by the
cows so cavalry experience simply was not there.
[7] See, “Merovingian Military Organization, 481 – 751”
[8] One that he seemingly favors is close to: “fell upon the enemies
like a crumbling brick shithouse”, which clearly indicates presence of
a powerful cavalry on the Frankish side.
[9] Cost of the said equipment in the contemporary currency.
[10] If 3 small holders are supposed to raise 1 soldier and you have,
say, 25 of them in one village and 19 in another, you’ll inevitably
end up with 8 and 1/3 and 6 and 1/3. And even you somehow manage to
combine them (fat chance, with them being from the different
villages), you will still end up 1/3 short of a full soldier. Add to
this, requests for the troops annual rotation and you end up with a
total mess in the terms of unattached bodily parts.
[11] Perhaps related to receiving some tangible gratitude.
[12] Of course the famous telegram, “Drinking for the 3rd week Your
Majesty’s health” belongs to a different period and geography but the
idea is the same: you can’t expect to be punished for _this_.
[13] Sight of an army taking an after lunch nap with an opponent in a
plain view should make the said opponent understandingly suspicious
about this being a clever ambush or something even worse. As a result,
many of the Frankish opponents, like Bavarians or Langobards, had been
routinely capitulating or at least fleeing at the sound of the
Frankish snoring.
[14] This specific problem was successfully addressed later by
introduction of full plate armor and the visors with the very small
holes.
[15] Density of these formations had been measured by the size of the
object that could fall throw. With no solid theory of a warfare being
in circulation, these measurements had been done by throwing object of
ever-decreasing size on the top of the knightly formations. Usually,
it was started from something reasonably big (for example, a cow or a
varlet), then going down to a sheep, a Smart car, watermelon, apple,
ipod, and all the way down to a facial tissue. After each experiment,
the knights were moved closer and closer together until necessary
degree of cohesion had been achieved.
[16] Before they had been burned.
[17] In the case (a) taking into an account a practical difficulty of
figuring out a religious affiliations of the people involved, it was
OK to kill everybody in sight; in the case (b) upon return the knight
was not allowed to tell the details unless ordered by a marshal and in
case (c) he should contribute at least half of a property into the
Order’s treasury.
[18] Quite obviously, sight of the herd of sheep being moved to the
trumpeter’s tent by somebody wearing enemy’s uniform would make
commander of an army reasonably suspicious and tempted to play the
same trick on an opponent. However, with an increasing coinage
circulation during the Renaissance and, especially, after the
anonymous bank accounts had been introduced by the Florentines and
later by the Swiss, situation changed dramatically.
[19] Described in some details in Verbruggen’s book on a medieval
warfare.
[20] Ditto
[21] In the close-packed order, the only thing he could do was to keep
his lance horizontally. When left to his own devices, he could easily
damage himself with one of the sharp thingies he was supposed to
‘wield’.
[22] As was correctly noticed not long ago, there was not a single
recorded case of the Viking fleet rowing wildly in a disorderly
pursuit of a fleeing enemy after sunset and in the middle of an
unfamiliar forest.
[23] No, there is no _direct_ proof that state of the Medieval Europe
had a nationalized healthcare.
[24] Making themselves useful by providing women and booze to their
social superiors.
[25] The most publicized occasion when they did not, happened in 1066
in England.
erilar - 29 Jun 2009 22:56 GMT
In article
<3ab2fa76-f47d-4f8e-a18f-2c09497aec9b@z9g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,

> 1.Merovingian warfare

raucous applause with much foot-stamping and whistling!!

Signature

Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)

You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
that reason doesn't count.     --Isaac Asimov

Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo 

John Kane - 29 Jun 2009 23:17 GMT
On Jun 29, 3:51 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:

An excellent summary of our current knowledge of this important area.
It breaks new ground in our understanding of the complexities of
medieval warfare.

Perhaps it should be submitted to History Today or the Journal of
Irreproducible Results ?

I am glad I did not have a cup of tea handy when reading it.

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada
am05@hotmail.com - 30 Jun 2009 02:55 GMT
> On Jun 29, 3:51 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> An excellent summary of our current knowledge of this important area.
> It breaks new ground in our understanding of the complexities of
> medieval warfare.

Taking into an account that the post is heavily influenced by the
books of B & V, all (or at least most of) credit goes to them.

> Perhaps it should be submitted to History Today or the Journal of
> Irreproducible Results ?

Unfortunately, I don't have proper connections. :-)

> I am glad I did not have a cup of tea handy when reading it.

Well, if you are interested in the subject, here is a little bit more
on the subject (after posting I recognized that some of the deepest
V's observations had been left out).

Foot Soldiers and the Knights

Of course, after the foot soldiers made their (totally unnecessary)
appearance on a battlefield, the noble part of society did not remain
idle. After a brief consultation with Charles Darwin, the knights
started a dedicated evolution [1]. Just as evolution of the species,
this one involved both appearance  and behavioral patterns. Within
historically-negligible period, the mid-sized mail-wearing knightly
species had been replaced by more robust individuals featuring full
iron plate and using much longer lances [2]. The same goes for the
behavior. If the earlier knightly species were not quite able to do
much more than to ride straight forward [3] and obey some of the
commands listed in the previous chapter, starting from the 2nd half of
the XIV century, we can observe a much more cunning behavior when they
could not avoid meeting the infantrymen.

One of the models of behavior was to pretend that _they_ are
infantrymen, infiltrate infantry ranks and then, depending on which
ranks they did infiltrate, either encourage their own infantrymen to
advance [4] or, if by mistake they infiltrated the wrong formation,
try to create panic by making loud unhappy noises. The English had
been quite successful with this model until (a) French cheated them
out of winning the 100YW (see below) and (b) deployment of this
tactics by _both_ sides during the Wars of the Roses resulted in a
mass confusion (not only both sides had been using the same tactics
but they often had similar flags and their trumpeters were playing the
same tunes, making proper rallying totally impossible) and almost
total self-extermination.

Another, even more complicated stratagem was to postpone a battle
until the sunny very hot weather and then did not appear on a
battlefield, leaving the opposing burghers to stay on the sun,
sweating in their heavy equipment [5] without any chance to get drunk,
while their knightly opponents are picnicking not too far away. With a
properly selected terrain, this was almost sure scenario for a victory
because the burghers would have only two options: (a) to retire to
their camp without a fight [6] or (b) to get themselves totally
exhausted running [7] to the picnic area just to find that all food
and drink are already consumed and the knights safely rode to another
position or, even worse, sneaked behind their backs upon a designated
battlefield area and declared themselves winners [8]. Of course, the
competent commanders and a well-developed organization had been
necessary to achieve victory under this scenario: picnic area must be
far enough for the enemy to be exhausted by the time of arrival but
not too far for him to drop the whole idea altogether. Then, one had
to wait until the hot sunny weather. You also had to keep your knights
under a tight control so that by the time push comes to shove they
would not be totally drunk, etc. If one goes beyond V's book, progress
is clearly seen: while at Mons-en-Pevele King (and probably everybody
else) had been in a state of a total intoxication, with the resulting
"victory by the rule", it was specifically remarked that few decades
later at Rosebeke the French had been totally sober, which resulted in
a total defeat of the burghers.

Similar progress can be traced during the 100YW. Of course, it took
French a while to find formula of a victory but finally they figured
out that having the firearms gives you an air of a technological
superiority comparing to the people armed with the wooden sticks. It
was found (after decades of experiments) that a mere presence of the
firearms on a French side was creating a tremendous inferiority
complex on the English side. And the most common English reaction in
such a situation was one of the bull at the sight of a red rug [9].
The 1st experiment involved 2 field cannons and the results exceeded
all expectations: the English totally lost self-control and had been
defeated. The next experiment involved numerous firearms, resulted in
a massive insanity on an opposing side and won the war.

An unique and a little bit peculiar style of warfare had been
developed by Charles the Bold with a purpose to fight the Swiss.
Unfortunately, it never was properly documented so we have just the
general outlines. More or less, it boils down to the following: place
your troops in a position where the enemy can attack you with a
maximum advantage, preferably without the sentries to allow him to
achieve a complete surprise. After this, try to imitate a headless
chicken and let as many of you troops as possible to be killed.
Preferably, including yourself. Perhaps, given enough time and
resources, Charles would be able to evolve his system into something
more successful but, unfortunately, he run out of both.

________________________________________
[1]  A creationist branch of a knighthood proved to be unable to
evolve and very soon had been exterminated by the sticks-wielding
burghers, yeomen and other low life forms.
[2] Verbruggen proved quite convincingly that the side having longer
sticks is doomed to win, unless other side is throwing sticks (which
can be qualified as even longer sticks). Ensuing competition between
knights and pikemen and between various species of the pikemen (this,
unfortunately happened after the Middle Ages by V came to their
logical conclusion so we have to rely upon The Evil Obsolete Historian
and surviving artifacts) resulting in a gradual length extension of
both infantry and cavalry lances which would go on until competitors
eventually run out of suitable trees. Fortunately (for the trees), by
this time all of them had been replaced by the troops with the
firearms. While being, by most accounts, almost totally useless in the
terms of range, aim and other important parameters, the firearms could
make loud "Boom!" and produce nice smoke clouds so, eventually, they
won the day.
[3] In the "serried ranks" and formations so dense that even CD could
not fell through.
[4] Preferably from the rear ranks.
[5] All these chain mails, helmets, goddendags, morgensterns, long
spears, shields, battleaxes, maces, etc.
[6] Which, by the rules of the time would make them losers.
[7] In a very hot weather with all the things listed in [5].
[8] See V's description of the battle at Mons-en-Pevele. It clearly
shows the potential benefits and dangers of this specific stratagem:
by the time when irritated burghers reached French picnic area King
Phillip the Fair was in a such condition that he simply could not
climb on his horse, even after it was killed. "He was sitting on the
ground, and his first attempt to re-mount failed." Yeah, sure. He was
in such a condition that "At one moment he lost his weapon, but a
butcher gave him a gigantic battle-axe, with which the king felled
many of the enemy". One may keep wondering what would butcher be doing
there if this was _not_ a drinking and feasting party. Fortunately for
the King, a class solidarity proved to be stronger than a personal
animosity: at the most critical moment when, with the help of his
faithful knights he was finally placed upon a horse, a Flemish knight
kicked the stupid beast (I mean horse) with his goedendag so the
animal bolted and "thus brought the king to safety to a group of
nobles who had been watching anxiously the result of this encounter."
Of course, the said nobles were smart enough not to interfere in all
this mess (drunken monarch wildly swinging a battle-axe, idiot kicking
horse with a sharp instrument, etc.). Eventually, "the Brugeois
triumphantly pushed  through the French camp ... found wine and food
in the royal tent and elsewhere" and later returned to Lille "leaving
the battlefield in the hands of the king who rightly proclaimed
himself the victor."
[9] Which probably indicate that the French were well ahead of Pavlov
in their study of reflexes.
John Kane - 30 Jun 2009 19:38 GMT
On Jun 29, 9:55 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:

Thank you. I have added this masterpiece to the rest of the
composition and am now prepared for my final oral examination for my
Ph.D in history.
Jack Linthicum - 30 Jun 2009 19:42 GMT
> On Jun 29, 9:55 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Thank you. I have added this masterpiece to the rest of the
> composition and am now prepared for my final oral examination for my
> Ph.D in history.

Do you get to name the examining committee or does the department do
that?
erilar - 01 Jul 2009 00:45 GMT
In article
<a8da8b96-c17c-4e5d-a64f-42b56f1f6010@q37g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,

> > On Jun 29, 9:55 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Do you get to name the examining committee or does the department do
> that?

Perhaps we could both be on it?

Signature

Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)

You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
that reason doesn't count.     --Isaac Asimov

Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo 

am05@hotmail.com - 01 Jul 2009 02:26 GMT
> In article
> <a8da8b96-c17c-4e5d-a64f-42b56f1f6...@q37g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Perhaps we could both be on it?

Surely, I should be on it....
erilar - 01 Jul 2009 15:46 GMT
In article
<59c9894a-fbba-495a-87f2-739e547d41ad@l34g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,

> > In article
> > <a8da8b96-c17c-4e5d-a64f-42b56f1f6...@q37g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >
> Surely, I should be on it....

Unquestionably!   For my English MA, all we discussed was my paper, and
the prof I wrote it for was the only one on the panel who understood it
8-)

This led me to expect the exam for the Germanic Philology MA would have
something to do with the three papers I wrote, but they weren't even
touched on.  Ouch!

Signature

Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)

You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is
that reason doesn't count.     --Isaac Asimov

Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo 

Jack Linthicum - 01 Jul 2009 19:35 GMT
> In article
> <59c9894a-fbba-495a-87f2-739e547d4...@l34g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Erilar's Cave Annex:http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo 

You have experienced the root of my question. I was able to name two
of the three who examined my Master's attempt at the University of
California. First round ended up with many blue sky sweeps through
history and a decision that I was not conversant enough with details.
Second, six months later, examined the unnamed parts of nits and small
pieces of history. I was obviously not endowed with the scope of a
true historian and if I was able to find a teaching position somewhere
it would be a miracle. Since I had already been forced to join the
Navy by a draft board selection I never got to find out if I would
been any good.
am05@hotmail.com - 01 Jul 2009 20:08 GMT
> > In article
> > <59c9894a-fbba-495a-87f2-739e547d4...@l34g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Navy by a draft board selection I never got to find out if I would
> been any good.

I suspect that you did not get the "basics" right: it does not matter
_what_ you are saying and how much do you know about the subject as
long as you can use the proper lingo. It is especially useful if you
can pick up at least some lingo from one of those who are doing
examination.

When it came to a military history exam (a part of a compulsory
military education in the colleges of the Country Which Is No More) I
did not know too much about the 1st question in my ticket and knew
practically nothing about the 2nd one. However, I was the only one in
our group who could fluently use the right buzzwords (echelon, deep
defense and some other jewels of the military slang) and both colonels
involved had been totally smitten (one of them even flattered himself
with an idea that I learned all this stuff from his lectures). For the
next couple years my ...er.... not-very-impressive success in studying
radiolocation was mostly overlooked by the said colonel.

:-)
Jack Linthicum - 03 Jul 2009 14:55 GMT
On Jul 1, 3:08 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > > In article
> > > <59c9894a-fbba-495a-87f2-739e547d4...@l34g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>
> :-)

I was trying to get a Master's with the field of Middle East history
at a major major university that had no Middle East history courses,
only political science. I couldn't bring the Political Science guy,
George Lenczowski, because it was a history exam.

None of the three, Diplomatic, Russia and Germany, wanted to talk
about the ME, because, like your buzz words, I would have the
vocabulary down and they didn't want me to have it.
John Kane - 04 Jul 2009 16:03 GMT
On Jun 30, 9:26 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > In article
> > <a8da8b96-c17c-4e5d-a64f-42b56f1f6...@q37g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Surely, I should be on it

Certainly not!  Plagarism is so embarrassing when the author is on the
committee.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
am05@hotmail.com - 05 Jul 2009 17:41 GMT
> On Jun 30, 9:26 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Certainly not!  Plagarism is so embarrassing when the author is on the
> committee.

As long as you preface them with: "As was proven beyond any reasonable
doubt by ....." or "As <whoever> teaches us...." it should be quite
all right. :-)
am05@hotmail.com - 30 Jun 2009 20:00 GMT
> On Jun 29, 9:55 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Thank you. I have added this masterpiece to the rest of the
> composition and am now prepared for my final oral examination for my
> Ph.D in history.

Why don't you wait until I'm done with the whole subject so that you
will be able to overwhelm the examination board with the width, lenght
and depth of your knowledge? :-)

[the next chapter was just published as a separate thread]
John Kane - 04 Jul 2009 16:07 GMT
On Jun 30, 3:00 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:

> > On Jun 29, 9:55 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> [the next chapter was just published as a separate thread]

Damn it.  I hate discovering new sources so late in the dissertation
process.  Perhaps I'll ignore it until my book ?

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
am05@hotmail.com - 06 Jul 2009 00:49 GMT
> On Jun 30, 3:00 pm, a...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Damn it.  I hate discovering new sources so late in the dissertation
> process.  Perhaps I'll ignore it until my book ?

If you are not afraid that your book will be too innovative.... :-)
Tron - 01 Jul 2009 10:17 GMT
Hi,

.....

Signals by the standards and trumpets also played an important role in
the knightly warfare. To start with, a knight was supposed to fight
only as long as (a) he can see a standard of his superior and (b) can
hear his side’s trumpets.

- If there were more than three, did that sound diabolical?

T
am05@hotmail.com - 01 Jul 2009 13:30 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> - If there were more than three, did that sound diabolical?

As much as I could figure out from reading V's book, it was OK to join
any standard (no matter which side) as long as combatant could (within
reasonable limits) consider its general appearence pleasing enough. Of
course, this was allowed only after the standard of his own band could
not be seen. With enough standards around, statistically, both sides
would get a fair treatment.

Regarding the trumpets, author is much less clear. It is more or less
clear that before marching anywhere the members of each and every
medieval army had to attend a number of the compulsory music lessons.
But it is much less clear if the signals of _different_ armies had
been prearranged to avoid confusion. What if _both_ sides used the
same tune (for example, "Yellow submarine") for the different
purposes?
 
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