MMV - things overlooked by the professional historians :-)
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am05@hotmail.com - 07 Jul 2009 21:19 GMT 1. Introduction and general background
There are certain aspects of a medieval military history that are so conspicuous by their absence from the numerous books on a medieval warfare that one may suspect a conspiracy of silence among so-called “professionals” of this genre.
To understand importance of the issues that we are going to discuss, it is necessary to discuss some ‘generic’ features of a medieval warfare that existed beyond and above the local specifics [1].
It was wisely said in the early XIX century that, unlike the people, horses don’t have a sense of patriotism and, as a result, must not starve. Taking into an account that most of the Middle Ages most of the people did not have patriotism either, the same rule can be retroactively applied to the medieval combatants. Taking into an account that “eating” was routinely accompanied by heavy drinking, these two related processes put certain restrictions on how medieval wars had been fought. Quite obviously, the military leaders should select the right time spot during which their warriors could (a) move and (b) distinguish friend from foe [2].
To get a complete understanding of a daily routine, let’s look at the typical schedule of a medieval noble while on a warpath. Well, to think about it, it is rather difficult to do this because the beginning of a day would greatly depend on 2 related factors: (a) availability of a booze and (b) time when overnight drinking came to the end [3]. At some point between a sunrise and lunch time, the medieval army [4] was more or less in a state of wakening up. As anybody who ever suffered from the morning hangover knows [5], the only thing you are thinking about at this point is, shall we say, “change of status” [6] and not the active physical exercises like a warfare. Any loud noise, for example a sound of trumpets, is a torture and your vision is too blurred to distinguish Lion Salient from Lion Rampant Reguardant or Tuna Naiant from Tuna Embowed. By the very optimistic estimates, this process should take couple hours, followed by attending a morning prayer [7], relieving yourself and trying to figure out where did you left your armor and sword [8]. Approximately by noon your vision is (more or less) cleared and you need to have a lunch [9] with the following refreshing nap, after which you are in a fighting shape until dinner. At this critical point, the marshals (voyevodas, whoever), providing they are more or less vertical, would try to arrange an army in a battle order [10].
Putting a typical feudal army into an order was a long and cumbersome process described by Verbruggen in the excruciating details. First of all, it had to be figured out WHERE this exercise should take place: the area should be big enough and completely flat so that it could be easily confused with a jousting field [11]. When such a suitable place was located, the marshal would order the trumpeters to play a sequence of the signals: “Relieve yourselves!” [12], “Get dressed!” [13], “Mount the horses!”, “Proceed slowly to the assembly area!”, “Shut up and wait to be placed!” [14], “Tighten up!” [15], “Start moving in a slow step!”, “Slower!”, “Even slower!” [16], and “Where do you think you are going?” In the case when the enemy was too dumb and the clash really happened, the side which had a tighter formation was, usually, a winner [17] and, after disentanglement, army could proceed to the dinner [18].
Obviously, all of the above required a lot of a physical exercise and having them in a good shape before the battle was crucial. This brings us to an issue of after-lunch nap.
2. Importance of taking a nap
Generations of the warriors all over Europe considered mid-day nap as being extremely important not only due to the related physical advantages [19] but also because having it provided certain psychological edge.
A sight of the opponent happily snoring in a direct vicinity of an enemy, in most cases left the said enemy with a huge inferiority complex. Also, unless being TOTALLY stupid, enemy understood that, if being suddenly woken up, an opponent could react with an extreme violence [20] well beyond the boundaries of a traditional cruelty. The most reasonable course of actions was to take a nap somewhere nearby so by the time of battle you are in as good a shape as your opponent.
Of course, it must be said, that all of the above required certain “cultural framework”: both sides should be aware of the napping- related aspects of warfare. If such an understanding was absent on one side, things could go out of control. One of the best-known examples is what happened in a real-life at Roncesvalles to Roland and his napping friends [21] another example would be one of the many not quite successful encounters between the Russians and the Mongols, which happened on the river appropriately called “Piana” [22]. After having a decent lunch, the Russians took a nap and the culturally- insensitive Mongols took an unfair advantage of it.
On a positive side, having a nap was considered something of an indicator of a superior culture and, as a result, this habit was gradually adopted by at least some of the less developed nations. For example, during one of the endless Frankish campaigns the Saxons crawled into their fortified camp to find the entire garrison peacefully snoring. An example looked so attractive that, instead of killing all the enemies, the Saxons joined the nap. After this, it took only few decades of a constant fighting to submerge them into a superior Frankish culture.
3. Importance of having the right Leaders
An issue of a medieval _European_ leadership had been discussed by the numerous “professionals” but mostly from a totally wrong perspective [23]. Rallying to the similarly-looking standards [24] and trying to figure out which of the numerous military orchestras is currently playing your battle-tune [25] sound nice and well on paper but their practical implementation (especially when you are still trying to sober up after yesterday’s dinner) is somewhat questionable. You need something easily recognizable, which brings us to an issue of a leadership.
The most important thing was to have a leader whom you could easily recognize [26] under almost any circumstances and with the minimal requirements toward an education in the liberal arts. An ideal leader should be big in size (“majestic”), preferably with a very loud voice [27] and a habit of swinging some big piece of weaponry, to simplify recognition even further. If, in addition, he was wearing something like a gilded cuirass or a really big set of feathers on his helmet, you simply could not wish a better leader in the terms of having a rallying point. Traits which would, within a different framework, considered as the handicaps [28], either did no matter or were considered as some kind of (a little bit weird) advantage. As long as you were tall, strong, loud-voiced, and, preferably, blond you had most of the qualifications of a great military leader. Ah yes, you also had to possess an excessive amount of a personal bravery to excuse you for losing your troops in most moronic way [29].
OTOH, the small unimposing figures like Emperor Frederick II could not and did not inspire either loyalty or enthusiasm.
4. Importance of the sense of humor
The medievals usually had a well-developed sense of humor [30]. Just as in the modern times, a big part of humor is job-related and, their job being a war, a lot of humor was going in this specific direction. One thing that can be said about the jokes of any specific time period and culture is that most of them are not original. The same goes for the medieval military humor.
It looks like (at least in XIII – XIV) the most popular military joke was to cheat an opponent [31] out of battle. More or less it boiled down to the following schema: you wait until a sunny, hot day, offer your opponent a battle [32] and, instead of appearing, hide yourself in the nearby bushes, watching your enemy staying under a hot sun with a lot of iron on his person, while giggling sardonically. Strangely enough, this worked time and again because by some unexplained reason a cheated enemy just kept staying there until a complete exhaustion.
The second most popular joke was a reverse of the 1st one and was especially popular in the Island of Miracles. The joking side would take stand on some widely open place and allow the enemy to shoot into them until enemy would die from exhaustion. To make the whole schema even funnier, a joking side would not wear any protective armor and arrange itself into the very dense formations so that even the most incompetent opponent could not miss.
On a lesser scale, the humor could include playing soccer with the heads of the killed enemies or baking your opponent alive and forcing his followers to eat him. The really funny contributions made by the Ottomans and Mongols can’t be overlooked either.
[1] Geographically, this covers space from Frankish Empire to Russia and time span goes well beyond the Middle Ages. [2] At least vaguely. [3] Either due to a running out of “factor (a)” or because the participants were too drunk to continue. [4] Which, contrary to what Delbruck and Verbruggen though on this subjects, consisted not only of the knights but also included the lesser personages who followed the same behavioral pattern but with a cheaper booze. [5] Trying to be on a nice side, we’ll assume that D., V. and B never experienced this condition due to its incompatibility with an academic dignity and, as a result, were totally ignorant of certain facts of life (assuming otherwise would mean that they were engaged in the intentional distortion of the history). [6] Depending on the specifics of a particular culture and available nomenclature of the products, this change can be achieved by drinking more booze, drinking brine and eating pickled products, eating hot food (preferably meat-based) AND drinking more booze, drinking some weird concoctions (not really helpful), drinking a lot of coffee (1st, this would not help and 2nd, was not available yet during the early Middle Ages). [7] Providing the clergymen accompanying the army had been in a condition to serve a mass. [8] Or, in the case of the lower classes, your jerkin and goddendag (or Morgenstern). [9] Typically, this would mean eating some medium-sized animal or a big bird accompanied by a moderate drinking (approximately 750 ml of hard booze and/or 2 liters of wine and/or beer depending on availability, weather and many other circumstances). [10] Giving the dirty merchants and other deplorable but useful types, time to replenish supply of the drinks. If they failed to do so, the consequences would vary from a mass desertion to a total extermination of a local population. [11] Where, according to V, all training of the feudal cavalry was happening. [12] If not done, the battle order would soon disintegrate due to the erratic dismounting and taking a leak. Only the most disciplined troops, like Templars and Hospitaliers, had been trained to piss off the horse. Judging by V’s omission, the knights of the Teutonic Order were not up to the same standard. [13] Meant: order your varlets to fix on you as much armor and weaponry as they could locate by this time. [14] Each feudal worth of notice should be personally escorted to his place in a battle order. After reviewing the allocated spot, he had a legal right to make an official complaint about this specific place not being suitable for his rank and ancestry or about him being forced to mingle with the people of a lower social status. Even if he did not complain initially, he could do so after the neighbors had been placed on his sides. The acceptable forms of protest included (but were not limited to): (a) right to be extremely vocal about being forced to stay side to side with the lower forms of life, (b) delegating this function to a troubadour who was supposed to improvise a suitable poem and recite it to everybody’s entertainment, (c) leaving the ranks with or without a notice, (d) kicking marshal (and/or neighbor(s)) with a battleaxe or some other heavy and sharp device. [15] Tightening formation was mentioned in the previous chapters. According to V., this was an interactive process, which included throwing the objects of ever-decreasing size (a cow, a motorcycle, a sheep, a watermelon, a cat, an apple, i-pod, a face tissue) on the top of a gradually tightening knightly formation until a thrown item would bounce off it. This was a long and tedious process which required a lot of skill and the throwable objects. [16] Advancing extremely slow and in an extremely dense formation was extremely important psychologically. Just imagine a dense wall of the really big tuna cans slowly moving in your direction! If this happens fast, you may not have enough time to react and may stay where you are. But a slow advance gives you plenty of time to recognize the horror of what is going to happen and react accordingly by running away. Usually, the side that advanced slower was winning well before the real clash could take place; which is why the medieval battles were relatively rare. [17] There was a certain disadvantage in having a tight formation: quite obviously, the only thing it could do was to ride forward. This left the leaders with 2 main options: (a) to wait while the unit circumvents the Earth (which could take a while) or (b) to stop it in some remote spot, disassemble by issue commands listed above in a backward order, then reassemble facing the proper direction and ride back toward a battle field. [18] Eating a big animal with unrestricted drinking. [19] Besides being less bleary-eyed during the battle, you could also stay at the dinner table for much longer. [20] In the “Song” Roland and his buddies went absolutely berserk. [21] Of course, this unfortunate event was anything but typical because, unlike any self-respecting medieval army, the Basques did not wear any armor and could snake to the napping spot totally unnoticed. Anyway, the Annales Regii clearly explained that, tragic as it was for the Franks, this event did not REALLY matter because the Basques had been fighting contrary to the rules. Anyway, the fact that the Basques “suddenly … vanished thanks to their knowledge of the terrain” makes them losers because the side that remained on the field was, rightfully, a winner. [22] “Drunk” [23] Depth of their knowledge preventing them from seeing “the big picture”. Also, as was said above, we have to assume an absence of certain types of a practical knowledge as incompatible with their academic dignity. [24] Some purely practical considerations: (a) most of the time both sides had been using the same heraldry, which means that in at least 50% cases the images were almost the same on both sides; (b) the knightly helmets seriously obscuring the vision, it would be extremely difficult to see too much without taking the helmet off or raising a visor (both options being rather unhealthy if exercised in the middle of a battle); (c) taking into an account both (a) and (b), the battle standards had to be fully unfolded and held stretched (by whom?) to provide the combatants with a decent chance to see the picture; (d) even with all if the above, this would not help too much to even slightly myopic people (to recognize “sun in all his splendor” from, say, “sun not very happy”, one had to see all the tiny details of sun’s facial expression: IIRC, quite a few participants of one of the battles of the Wars of the Roses suddenly found themselves on a winning side by misreading this expression). [25] Providing you have enough of a musical education to distinguish “Venite, inginocchiatevi!” from a tune from “A Csárdáskirálynő”. [26] By appearance, voice, silly behavior or their combination. [27] Ideally, with a habit to swear in a clearly-distinctive manner. [28] Like being drunk most of the time, being a total imbecile, being blind, being “geographically challenged”, being “geopolitically challenged”, etc. [29] Compare reputation that Edward II got after running at Bannockburn with one acquired by John the Good after staying at Poitiers (they were in a direct proportion to an amount of damage done to the respective country); not to mention (blind) King John of Bohemia and his brilliant leadership at Crecy. St. Louis would be probably a winner of this competition because he managed to lead not single but 2 armies to a total self-destruction. OTOH, one can’t totally disregard Richard I who almost beat Moses’ record of wandering aimlessly in a very small desert instead of going directly to a point of destination. Phillip the Fair should not be discounted either: in both battles with his participation described by V., he spent most of the time either flat on his back or trying to figure out how to mount a horse, which did not prevent him from winning both, at least formally. [30] Not necessarily the same as the modern one. [31] Especially of a lower social status so even if he took it personally, it would not really matter. [32] Not sure how this part was done, especially with the burghers.
erilar - 08 Jul 2009 14:37 GMT In article <275305d1-abd5-4fca-ac5a-809729517613@h31g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
> OTOH, the small unimposing figures like Emperor Frederick II could not > and did not inspire either loyalty or enthusiasm. Heretic! Blasphemer!
 Signature Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarloÂ
am05@hotmail.com - 08 Jul 2009 20:33 GMT > In article > <275305d1-abd5-4fca-ac5a-809729517...@h31g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Heretic! Blasphemer! And a shortie!
erilar - 08 Jul 2009 23:07 GMT In article <7e3e0403-bbca-4787-8ccb-b0563aa7f20e@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> > In article > > <275305d1-abd5-4fca-ac5a-809729517...@h31g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > And a shortie! Ha! I meant you. Fred 2 is my favorite emperor!
 Signature Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
erilar - 08 Jul 2009 23:08 GMT In article <7e3e0403-bbca-4787-8ccb-b0563aa7f20e@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> > In article > > <275305d1-abd5-4fca-ac5a-809729517...@h31g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > And a shortie! AND a better king than a fancy general like Richard the Bull-Headed of England.
 Signature Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
am05@hotmail.com - 09 Jul 2009 00:31 GMT > In article > <7e3e0403-bbca-4787-8ccb-b0563aa7f...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > AND a better king than a fancy general like Richard the Bull-Headed of > England. You did not read carefully: it did not matter how moronic, suicidal, homicidal, incompetent, etc. you are as a military leader as long as you would fit the specs which I listed. Why? Because due to a small height you could not be used as a rallying point.
erilar - 11 Jul 2009 23:00 GMT In article <dea13863-98b9-46fc-a619-680d2f334f83@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
> You did not read carefully: it did not matter how moronic, suicidal, > homicidal, incompetent, etc. you are as a military leader as long as > you would fit the specs which I listed. Why? Because due to a small > height you could not be used as a rallying point. But MY point was that these generals do not generally make good kings, though some of them are both king and general(Richard I)
 Signature Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
am05@hotmail.com - 12 Jul 2009 04:03 GMT > In article > <dea13863-98b9-46fc-a619-680d2f334...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > But MY point was that these generals do not generally make good kings, > though some of them are both king and general(Richard I) Mary, I did not write asingle word about them being 'good' kings (whatever this may mean) because the subject is: importance of the appearence of a military leader. Whatever he was doing outside a battlefield is outside the scope of discussion but on a battlefield his subjects always could easily figure out where is _their_ rallying point (around a tall, battle-axe weilding idiot with the well- developed lungs) and keep as far from it as was practically possible (see the case with John the Good) because (a) this was the most unsafe place on a battlefield and (b) the fact that the said maniac was doing all these things with a battleaxe was a clear indication that the battle is lost and the prudent man must start thinking about saving his own hide.
erilar - 12 Jul 2009 22:48 GMT In article <8f90d630-30a2-4448-9572-8db261ab6dc0@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
> > In article > > <dea13863-98b9-46fc-a619-680d2f334...@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
> > But MY point was that these generals do not generally make good kings, > > though some of them are both king and general(Richard I) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > battle is lost and the prudent man must start thinking about saving > his own hide. Oh, I know you didn't get into kingship, good or bad(but that might be interesting). I just reserve the right to go off on a wild tangent, especially after you cast a slur upon MY emperor, who won a few battles despite his lack of height. 8-)
 Signature Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
am05@hotmail.com - 12 Jul 2009 23:12 GMT > In article > <8f90d630-30a2-4448-9572-8db261ab6...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > especially after you cast a slur upon MY emperor, who won a few battles > despite his lack of height. 8-) To start with, I like Littel Fritz myself so the 'slur' is a product of your imagination. 2nd, you are seemingly missing the important point of a medieval warfare: it was not as much about winning as about looking good. As long as a leader posessed qualities that I listed, he was universally admired by friend and foe. Look at the blind King John of Bohemia at Creci. His horse was tied to the horses of his two pages (or squires, knights, does not matter). Who was, most probably, the 1st person he killed with his sword (if he managed to kill anybody)? A loyal idiot to his right. Did he had any serious chance to do some damage to the enemy? Unlikely. What was a tangible result of his stupidity (besides him being killed and his subjects finally getting a king with the brains)? Admiration of Ed Junior and everybody else.
Not to mention John the Good and his moron of a son who was nicknamed "Brave" just because he stuck to his father (probably because he was too slow on an uptake to figure out that it is time to run), take a famous comment of Francois I after Pavia: "All is lost except the honor". Which honor was he talking about? He just lost a battle purely due to his incompetence, most of French commanders had been uselessly killed (not that most of them had anything to recommend them as capable commanders) and the only "honorable" thing involved was his staying for a while in the middle of the surrounding enemies before surrendering (unlike his subordinates, he did not opt for ...er... "glorious death"). A little bit later, who was most popular Protestant leader during the French Wars of Religion? Admiral Coligny. What he was famous for? The heroic defeats (starting from the reign of Henry II). To be fair, a heroic incompetence was not his monopoly: in one of the battles of the Wars of Religion commanders of BOTH sides had been taken prisoners.
erilar - 13 Jul 2009 01:42 GMT In article <7f3a3df0-9ca7-48d3-97c1-62b8f423e174@p36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> To start with, I like Littel Fritz myself so the 'slur' is a product > of your imagination. 2nd, you are seemingly missing the important > point of a medieval warfare: it was not as much about winning as about > looking good. As long as a leader posessed qualities that I listed, he > was universally admired by friend and foe. It does say something about those who admired such "heroes", doesn't it?
 Signature Mary Loomer Oliver (aka Erilar)
You can't reason with someone whose first line of argument is that reason doesn't count. --Isaac Asimov
Erilar's Cave Annex: http://www.chibardun.net/~erilarlo
am05@hotmail.com - 13 Jul 2009 14:37 GMT > In article > <7f3a3df0-9ca7-48d3-97c1-62b8f423e...@p36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It does say something about those who admired such "heroes", doesn't it? Of course, it does.
Soren Larsen - 19 Jul 2009 08:47 GMT > 1. Introduction and general background > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > horses don't have a sense of patriotism and, as a result, must not > starve. This clearly demonstrates ther dangers of relying on outdated scholarship.
XX century experience demonstrates that at least horses arses can be extremely patriotic.
>Taking into an account that most of the Middle Ages most of > the people did not have patriotism either, the same rule can be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > select the right time spot during which their warriors could (a) move > and (b) distinguish friend from foe [2]. Not really
a) If you are in a good defensive position you dont need all that movement.
b) If neither party cant distinguish friend from foe the effect would tend to cancel itself, and there would be no problem proceeding to the brawl.
> To get a complete understanding of a daily routine, let's look at the > typical schedule of a medieval noble while on a warpath. Well, to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > (voyevodas, whoever), providing they are more or less vertical, would > try to arrange an army in a battle order [10]. Oh Yeah
What happens if the army during any of these stages discovers that their beer supply has run out and then subsequently finds out that the opposing french army just has recieved a shipment of wine?
> Putting a typical feudal army into an order was a long and cumbersome > process described by Verbruggen in the excruciating details. First of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > a winner [17] and, after disentanglement, army could proceed to the > dinner [18]. You are complicating the issue.
What really happened was this, when the enemy was sighted the commander would wake up his troops with the trumpets.
He would then tell his very hung-over troops that those trumpets would continue to play until the blokes over there on the hill were gone.
am05@hotmail.com - 19 Jul 2009 16:14 GMT > a...@hotmail.com wrote: > > 1. Introduction and general background [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > This clearly demonstrates ther dangers of relying on outdated > scholarship. The person quoted never (AFAIK) pretended to be "a scholar" so this comment is irrelevant.
> XX century experience demonstrates that at least horses arses > can be extremely patriotic. You are (typically) confusing two totally different species based on a remote similarity of the names.
> >Taking into an account that most of the Middle Ages most of > > the people did not have patriotism either, the same rule can be [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > a) If you are in a good defensive position you dont need all that movement. If you are totally incapacitated by an excessive "eating" and can't move, any talk about a good defensive (or whatever) position is preposterous. Unless, of course, you are talking about the viking fleet stuck in a total darkness in the middle of a very dense forest unfamiliar to the attackers.
> b) If neither party cant distinguish friend from foe the effect would > tend to cancel itself, and there would be no problem proceeding > to the brawl. Interesting but not practical consideration: there was never a guarantee that an opponent (unless he was invited to yesterday's party) achieved exactly the same degree of <call it whatever you want> as yourself.
> > To get a complete understanding of a daily routine, let's look at the > > typical schedule of a medieval noble while on a warpath. Well, to [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > What happens if the army during any of these stages discovers > that their beer supply has run out An army would either disintegrate on the spot or retreat at a full speed to a nearest bar.
>and then subsequently finds > out How exactly?
>that the opposing french army What if opposing army was not French?
> just has recieved a shipment > of wine? Even more interesting situation: one side runs out of wine and another has only beer.
> > Putting a typical feudal army into an order was a long and cumbersome > > process described by Verbruggen in the excruciating details. First of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > You are complicating the issue. You obviously ignoring sacrosanct sources like Professor V.
> What really happened was this, when the enemy was sighted the > commander would wake up his troops with the trumpets. Not practical because such an attempt would result in a high mortality rate among the army commanders. Just out of a plain curiosity, had you ever been drunk on a low quality booze?
> He would then tell his very hung-over troops that those trumpets > would continue to play until the blokes over there on the hill were gone. 100% (painful) mortality rate among the commanders PLUS the same for the trumpeters who are stupid (and sober) enough to implement such a moronic order.
Paul J Gans - 19 Jul 2009 21:39 GMT >> 1. Introduction and general background >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> horses don't have a sense of patriotism and, as a result, must not >> starve.
>This clearly demonstrates ther dangers of relying on outdated >scholarship.
>XX century experience demonstrates that at least horses arses >can be extremely patriotic. While the rest of the horse could continue to act like an animal.
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
am05@hotmail.com - 20 Jul 2009 18:06 GMT > >a...@hotmail.com wrote: > >> 1. Introduction and general background [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > While the rest of the horse could continue to act like an > animal. Taking into an account specifics of your interaction with the horses, "acting like an animal" in your book probably includes objections to being strangled...
:-)
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