The Illegality of Secession
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Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 24 Sep 2006 13:41 GMT Common on these chat groups is the claim that not only was secession legal, but that this fact was so obvious that no one really disputed it in 1860-61 nor later. And those who opposed secession were close to being criminal in their opposition.
A couple of recent quotes on this site illustrate the claim:
"Secession was never illegal, nor unconstitutional under a reasonable interpritation. Defending oneself against a federal government hell bent on breaking the law is not illegal either."
"What would you have done in his shoes presuming you felt secession was legal, and in this case moral and proper. Let the USA continue to keep armed troops in control of a fort on your sovereign territory, with artillery that could be used to bombard a major city without even bothering to recognize you?"
The claim is false on two points:
First those making it in 1860-61 and as well as in Y2K ignore the fact that any arguments in favor of secession were and are instantly countered with equally valid and reasoned arguments against the proposition. While the pro-secessionists make good points, they seem to miss the fact that the pro-unionists also make good points.
Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal than there were those who believed it to be legal. This is not to deny that secession had - and has -its arguments. Rather it is to point out that the Unionists also had their good points.
Given that neither side had a monopoly on the legality/illegality of secession, we can turn to the second point:
How had secession or the threat of secession been handled previously in American history?
Although not strictly speaking secessionists, the farmers involved in the 1894 Whiskey Rebellion threatened the central government and the Washington Administration reacted quickly, declaring the tax resisters to be insurrectionists, and raising a military force to put down the insurrection.
The military force was led, BTW, by a Revolutionary war general named Light Horse Harry Lee. Hmm. I am sure, with that sort of heritage, any son of Light Horse Harry would have supported the government in 1861.
Under President Jefferson, Aaron Burr may or may not have tried to split off the western territories from the United States. Jefferson reacted much as Washington had, arresting Burr and trying him for treason. Chief Justice Marshall, acting as a district court judge (a la Taney in Merryman), set such a high standard for treason convictions that not only was Burr not convicted but since then the number of those even tried to for treason, let alone convicted, can be counted on the fingers of one's hands. However, Jefferson's quick action prevented Burr from attempting any secession.
Andrew Jackson faced a more overt effort at secession with South Carolina and we know what he thought of the idea. It is no accident that in 1860-61, the Jacksonians were adamant that secession was not permissible Taney may not have liked Lincoln but he upheld the government in the Prize Cases. Sam Houston was booted out as Texas governor because he opposed his state's secession. Andrew Johnson was the only senator from a Confederate state to continue his duties in Washington.
In 1840, during the Gag Rule fight over anti-slavery petitions in the House of Representatives, John Quincy Adams, the member from Braintree, offered a petition from some of his constituents, calling for the dissolution of the Union because of the stain of slavery.
The Southern members reacted with fury. Although many had themselves threatened secession if the Yankees did not support slavery and close down the abolitionists, evidently it was not permissible for a Northerner to do the same. The slave state representatives chose Thomas Marshall, of Kentucky, nephew of the late chief justice, to bring forward a motion of censure:
"Whereas, the Federal Constitution is a permanent form of Gov¬ernment and of perpetual obligation, until altered or modified in the mode pointed out by that instrument, and the members of this House, deriving their political character and powers from the same, are sworn to support it, and the dissolution of the Union necessarily implies the destruction of that instrument, the overthrow of the American Repub¬lic, and the extinction of our national existence: A proposition, there¬fore, to the Representatives of the people, to dissolve the organic law framed by their constituents, and to support which they are com¬manded by those constituents to be sworn, before they can enter upon the execution of the political powers created by it, and entrusted to them, is a high breach of privilege, a contempt offered to this House, a direct proposition to the Legislature and each member of it, to com¬mit perjury; and involves, necessarily, in its execution and its conse¬quences, the destruction of our country and the crime of high trea¬son.
"Resolved, therefore, That the Hon. JOHN Q. ADAMS, a member from Massachusetts, in presenting for the consideration of the House of Representatives of the United States, a petition praying the dis¬solution of the Union, has offered the deepest indignity to the House of which he is a member; an insult to the people of the United States, of which that House is the Legislative organ; and will, if this outrage be permitted to pass unrebuked and unpunished, have disgraced his country, through their Representatives, in the eyes of the whole world.
"Resolved, further, That the aforesaid JOHN Q. ADAMS, for this in¬sult, the first of the kind ever offered to the Government, and for the wound which he has permitted to be aimed, through his instru¬mentality, at the Constitution and existence of his country, the peace, the security, and liberty of the people of these States, might well be held to merit expulsion from the national councils; and the House deem it an act of grace and mercy, when they only inflict upon him their severest censure for conduct so utterly unworthy of his past relations to the State, and his present position. This they hereby do for the maintenance of their own purity and dignity; for the rest, they turn him over to his own conscience and the indignation of all true American citizens."
After a long debate, where the Old Man Eloquent defended himself and made fools of the Southern members, the measure was tabled.
In the ante-bellum world the most intrusive Federal law, indeed, except for postmasters, the only Federal contact most Americans had, was the 1850 Fugitive Slave Law. In essence, forcing Northern citizens to become slave catchers. When Wisconsin attempted nullification, the Supreme Court overruled them: national law is supreme over state law. There were no complaints from the slave states, indeed, there were compliments. Any complaints were reserved for Free States which had the gall to attempt to maintain the right of state's to protect their citizens from arrest and deportation into slavery without due process of law.
In the middle fifties, during the fight over Kansas, Secretary of War Jefferson Davis responded to the efforts of the Free State settlers resisting the Lecompton territorial legislature - and the latter, do not forget, stands as the worse example of fraudulent voting in American History, a distinction for which there are a lot of competition!
Secretary of War Jefferson Davis to Bvt. Major General Persifor F. Smith, 3 September 1856: "The position of the insurgents ... is that of open rebellion against the laws and constitutional authorities, with such an open manifestation of a purpose to spread devastation over the land, as no longer justifies further hesitation or indulgence. ... patriotism and humanity alike require that rebellion should be promptly crushed."
And three weeks later, the Adjutant General wrote to Smith, quoting the Secretary of War, "'The only distinction of parties which, in the military point of view, it is necessary to note, is that which distinguishes those who respect and maintain the laws and organized government from those who combine for revolutionary resistance to the constituted authorities and laws of the land. The armed combination of the latter class came within the denunciation of the President's proclamation, and are proper subjects upon which to employ the military laws.'"
The next year the Government attempted to put down what the Buchanan administration saw as rebellion in Utah by the Mormons. Although there was little actual fighting, the Army, under the command of Albert Sidney Johnson was embarrassed by the Mormon irregulars and only the efforts of Buchanan's emissaries and the desire of Brigham Young to avoid all out war prevented major bloodshed. Buchanan trumpeted the results as a vindication of American might over lawless religious separatists.
It is understandable and pardonable that when the slave states attempted secession, there were a lot of Americans, both North and South, who not only did not feel that secession was legal, but, to the contrary, saw it as rebellion and treason.
Take care,
Bob
Judy and Bob Huddleston 10643 Sperry Street Northglenn, CO 80234-3612 huddleston.r@comcast.net
..the greatest and the noblest man of the last century was Abraham Lincoln...Though America was his motherland and he was an American, he regarded the whole world as his native land.
Mahatma Gandhi, August 26, 1905
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 24 Sep 2006 23:54 GMT I was asked privately about the Hartford Convention, which slipped my mind as I wrote. So I will add to the above discussion:
As a result of New England dissatisfaction with the course of the War of 1812, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island sent delegates to a meeting in Hartford in October 1814. Federalists self selected delegates in Vermont and New Hampshire.
Contrary to neo-Confederate myth, the Hartford Convention rejected resolutions to secede. The convention claimed a state's rights position which the citizens of New England rejected. Nationalist Federalists such as John Quincy Adams migrated to the Democratic-Republican Party of Jefferson and Madison and the Federalist Party faded away.
A final report (January 5, 1815, was released just as news arrived of the American victory at New Orleans and the signing of the Treaty of Ghent which ended the war.
Bob
ray o'hara - 25 Sep 2006 00:51 GMT > I was asked privately about the Hartford Convention, which slipped my > mind as I wrote. So I will add to the above discussion: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a meeting in Hartford in October 1814. Federalists self selected > delegates in Vermont and New Hampshire. the whigs sent delegates, not new england. it was a party convention and it had no official recognition.
Gary Charbonneau - 25 Sep 2006 02:33 GMT > > I was asked privately about the Hartford Convention, which slipped my > > mind as I wrote. So I will add to the above discussion: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the whigs sent delegates, not new england. it was a party convention and it > had no official recognition. I'm sure you meant to say "Federalists," not "Whigs." The Whig Party did not come into existence until 1833/34.
While the Harford Convention was indeed essentially a Federalist Party project, the convention assembled pursuant to a call from the Massachusetts legislature, and 23 of 26 delegates, from Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island, were appointed by state legislatures; the 3 remaining delegates, from New Hampshire (whose government was under Republican control) and Vermont, were not.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 25 Sep 2006 13:45 GMT While not germane to my argument, I am curious: it was my understanding that "delegates" from VT and NH were not appointed by the states but were self selected by the Federalist Party. I am be and probalby am, wrong.
Bob SNIP
> While the Harford Convention was indeed essentially a Federalist Party > project, the convention assembled pursuant to a call from the > Massachusetts legislature, and 23 of 26 delegates, from Massachusetts, > Connecticut, and Rhode Island, were appointed by state legislatures; > the 3 remaining delegates, from New Hampshire (whose government was > under Republican control) and Vermont, were not. Gary Charbonneau - 26 Sep 2006 01:44 GMT > While not germane to my argument, I am curious: it was my understanding > that "delegates" from VT and NH were not appointed by the states but > were self selected by the Federalist Party. I am be and probalby am, > wrong. Bob: You are wrong about being wrong.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 25 Sep 2006 13:45 GMT @#$%%^& :>(
Yep. Federalists. Federalists. Federalist.
Fortunately my typo does not change the result: secession was not looked upon very kindly by Americans whether in 1794, 1814 or 1850.
SNIP
> I'm sure you meant to say "Federalists," not "Whigs." The Whig Party > did not come into existence until 1833/34. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the 3 remaining delegates, from New Hampshire (whose government was > under Republican control) and Vermont, were not. Rich Rostrom - 26 Sep 2006 01:44 GMT >@#$%%^& :>( > >Yep. Federalists. Federalists. Federalist. > >Fortunately my typo does not change the result: secession was not >looked upon very kindly by Americans whether in 1794, 1814 or 1850. Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by the Republicans of the time to discredit the Federalist; quite successfully too.
| He had a shorter, more scraggly, and even less | | flattering beard than Yassir Arafat, and Escalante | | never conceived that such a thing was possible. | | -- William Goldman, _Heat_ | Alfred Montestruc - 26 Sep 2006 11:40 GMT > >@#$%%^& :>( > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by > the Republicans of the time The Republican Party (which you do state as you capitalized "Republican" and did not write "Democratic-Republican", if you do not mean "Republican Party" state so) did not exist at the time of the Hartford convention.
The modern republican party was founded on 6 July 1854.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic-Republican_Party_(United_States)
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-119570597.html
scribe7716 - 26 Sep 2006 16:35 GMT > > Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the > > Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > mean "Republican Party" state so) did not exist at the time of the > Hartford convention. Actually the party was founded as Republican Party and was so known at the time of the Hartford Convention. It did not become known as the Democratic-Republican Party until the political coming of Andrew Jackson.
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 14:51 GMT > > > Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the > > > Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Democratic-Republican Party until the political coming of Andrew > Jackson. To refer to it as "the Republican Party" in a "civil war" newsgroup is disingenious. The Republican Party of Lincoln that is associated (rightly) with the war was founded much later, when the party of Jefferson and Jackson was called the Democratic party.
scribe7716 - 02 Oct 2006 17:24 GMT > > > > Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the > > > > Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > (rightly) with the war was founded much later, when the party of > Jefferson and Jackson was called the Democratic party. And the party making much over the supposed secession sentiments at the Hartford Convention was the Republican Party. Surely participation in a Civil War newsgroup does not mandate an ignorance of prior history.
Gary Charbonneau - 26 Sep 2006 01:44 GMT > @#$%%^& :>( > > Yep. Federalists. Federalists. Federalist. > > Fortunately my typo does not change the result: secession was not > looked upon very kindly by Americans whether in 1794, 1814 or 1850. Bob: The error wasn't yours, but Ray O'Hara's.
cncfixxer - 28 Sep 2006 01:42 GMT > Common on these chat groups is the claim that not only was secession > legal, but that this fact was so obvious that no one really disputed it [quoted text clipped - 181 lines] > > Mahatma Gandhi, August 26, 1905 I'm new at this so please forgive my ignorance ... I do look at things objectively and keep an open mind.
What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events that happened 145 years ago?
Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most northern working class people could care less about slavery... life was hard and few had time for events another world away ( travel to the south by horse took many days, few people had traveled more then 100 miles from home ). I honestly believe that a double standard existed regarding the southern states. The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission instead of due process. If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men . Many southerners knew the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way.
http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/001128.shtml The American people think they live under their Constitution, because the U.S. Government tells them so. Of course that same government also tells them what the Constitution means, and the meaning keeps changing, and with every new meaning the government increases its own power. And few people see the logical absurdity of letting a government decide the meaning of the very document that is supposed to limit that government's powers. Could anything be more irrational? If the federal government can change the Constitution, which was allegedly "unalterable by the government," why bother having a written constitution at all?
Gary Charbonneau - 28 Sep 2006 02:45 GMT > What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events > that happened 145 years ago? Well, no amendment has been added to the Constitution since the Civil War that would change the constitutionality of secession. Therefore, if secession was constitutional then, it would be constitutional now. Any state today could legally, at any time and for any reason, declare itself a foreign country. If the Constitution actually permits that, then my personal opinion is that it's broke and needs fixin'. On the other hand, if you're the type of person who takes the opposite position, that a state ought to be able to declare itself a foreign country at any time and for any reason, and the Constitution doesn't allow that, then you would say that the Constitution is broke and needs fixin'.
> Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most > northern working class people could care less about slavery... life was hard [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men . Many southerners knew > the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way. If you take the time to read the official statements issued by several of the states that seceded, you'll find that one of their major beef wasn't with the federal government at all, but with people of the free states who supposedly weren't knuckling under to the federal government in the matter of fugitive slaves. The Fugitive Slave Law of 1850 said that the federal government had the power to take someone accused of being a fugitive slave from a free state and send him to permanent bondage in a slave state. Even a casual reading of the Constitution would suggest that there's something a bit fishy about the notion that such a power had been delegated to the federal government -- and that the federal government could, in the process, deny the accused fugitive the right to a jury trial and the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus, as the Constitution appears to guarantee.
> http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/001128.shtml > The American people think they live under their Constitution, because the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > change the Constitution, which was allegedly "unalterable by the > government," why bother having a written constitution at all? I hear ya, brother. If you look, for example, at the Supreme Court's DRED SCOTT decision of 1857, it's hard to believe that it was anything other than a blatant attempt by the Court to subvert the Constitution in order to assert a so-called "right" of slaveholders to bring their slaves into any U.S. territory they pleased. On the other hand, what's the alternative? Leave it up to each state to decide which federal statutes are constitutional? If you did that, you'd quickly wind up with a situation in which the very same statute (the Fugitive Slave Law, for example) was constitutional in South Carolina but not constitutional in Massachusetts. And why should either South Carolina or Massachusetts have had the power to decide what federal laws were constitutional in the territory of Kansas?
Mike Stone - 02 Oct 2006 14:34 GMT "Gary Charbonneau" <charbonn@indiana.edu> wrote in message news:1159406476.385450.291720@m7g2000cwm.googlegro ups.com...
> If you take the time to read the official statements issued by several > of the states that seceded, you'll find that one of their major beef [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > would suggest that there's something a bit fishy about the notion that > such a power had been delegated to the federal government -- Nothing fishy at all. The Constitution was quite _specific_ on that. See Article IV, Sec 2, 2nd Para -
"No Person held to Service or Labor in one state, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labor, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service of Labor may be due."
Lincoln, in his first inaugural address, emphasised that when he swore to "preserve protect and defend the Constitution of the United States", he was swearing to uphold that clause just as much as any other.
>and that > the federal government could, in the process, deny the accused fugitive > the right to a jury trial and the privilege of the writ of habeas > corpus, as the Constitution appears to guarantee. That indeed is more questionable. Lincoln was on record as supporting an effective Fugitive Slave Law, but only if it were no more likely to consign a [legally] free man to servitude "than our ordinary criminal laws are to hang an innocent one". He and others were extremely doubtful whether the 1850 Act met that last criterion.
-- Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
"It is so stupid of modern civilisation to have given up believing in the devil, when he is its only explanation"
Ronald Knox
Gregory E. Garland - 28 Sep 2006 11:54 GMT > I'm new at this so please forgive my ignorance ... I do look at things > objectively and keep an open mind. > > What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events > that happened 145 years ago? Standing up to people with obtuse and usually unpleasant modern political agendas who blatantly lie about my country's history to justify those agendas seems reason enough. Not that any of those people want to turn the clock back to the 1850's, some just want to turn it back to the 1950's when the negroes knew their place (and if they objected... well killing an uppity black wasn't really murder).
> Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most > northern working class people could care less about slavery Pick one. Either abolitionist hysteria was the norm, or the 99% of the people in the north who were working class didn't care. Or if you like, provoking hysteria about 'black republicans' and other 'hysterical abolitionists' was indeed the favorite tactic of the southern fire-eaters who pushed through secession. So it may have been prevalent in the south, but not in the north.
Cash - 28 Sep 2006 19:21 GMT > What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events > that happened 145 years ago? ----------------------------- It's called "history."
> Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most > northern working class people could care less about slavery. ---------------------------- Which one is it?
And why do you refer to abolitionist "hysteria?"
Were the abolitionists right in saying slavery was immoral? Were they right in saying it should be done away with?
> I honestly believe that a double standard existed regarding the southern > states. The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission > instead of due process. --------------------- It was the confederacy who started the war, not "the North."
If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
> their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the > plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men . Many southerners knew > the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way. ------------------------ How is it that they didn't complain about any actions of the Federal government but instead complained that other states weren't knuckling under to the Federal government by returning fugitive slaves?
Lincoln promised that he wouldn't touch slavery where it existed but instead he would prevent it from expanding into territories. So who was trying to use muscle to force who into submission?
> http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/001128.shtml -------------------------
If you're looking for accurate history, Sobran is one of the least likely places to find it.
[modern politics snipped]
Regards, Cash
S Witmer - 29 Sep 2006 03:22 GMT <snip>
> I'm new at this so please forgive my ignorance ... I do look at things > objectively and keep an open mind. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most > northern working class people could care less about slavery... Oh, I wouldn't say that. There were active Underground Railroad routes in pretty much every state of the north. And religious groups such as the Quakers and Congregationalists were anti-slavery in their outlook. John Brown & his "troops" found safe havens in parts of the north.
life was hard
> and few had time for events another world away ( travel to the south by > horse took many days, few people had traveled more then 100 miles from > home ). But it was on their minds because it was affecting their country. News of "Bleeding Kansas" and the LeCompton fiasco, arguments over Personal Liberty Laws, the Wilmot Proviso, etc, permeated political discussion and newspapers of their day. The Caning of Sumner in Congress, while many miles away, invoked a strong emotional response just as much then as a similar incident would today.
And you'd be surprised at how well travelled some of the population was, by the way (though admittedly there were, as you say, plenty who had never travelled what we would consider "far from home"). In states like Iowa, Nebraska, and Minnesota, for example, the vast majority (especially of the adult population) were not born in those states because they had migrated from out east for from overseas. And some of the population had gone to California during the gold rush and returned, some with more cash than they left with if they were lucky. Still others had served during the Mexican-American War.
> I honestly believe that a double standard existed regarding the southern > states. The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission > instead of due process. Which due process would this be? Are you suggesting that after federal troops had been fired upon with artillery firing heated shot the proper course of action is a lawsuit? You're new here, but I've pointed out many times that some of the forts seized were seized prior to the secession of the states they were located in. If an armed seizure of a federal arsenal or fort doesn't qualify as rebellion I am at a loss as to what would.
If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
> their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the > plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men . Er...exactly how was anyone to predict the cost of the rebellion in advance, especially when most of the population on BOTH sides thought the whole war would last just a few months and involve just a few setpiece battles, rather than four years of grinding campaigns on a scale never seen before in western history? Also, are you aware that Lincoln floated the proposal of compensated emancipation to representatives of the Border States well after the war was underway and it was flatly rejected?
Many southerners knew
> the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way. Well, if you're talking about forcing the pro-slavery Lecompton constitution down the throats of Kansas settlers, then you may have a point. And the forcing of a gag rule on Congress in the late 1830's banning the discussion of anti-slavery petitions. But other than that, can you elaborate on exactly how they knew this?
Are you aware the in big chunks of the south, it was against the law to publicly speak in favor of abolition of slavery (not to mention risking, at the least, a good beating and death threats), and it was a criminal offense to even possess or send literature regarding such through the mail? So let's not pretend that the southerners were not adverse to a little tyranny, provided it was *their* tyranny.
As of a week or two prior to the firing on Ft. Sumter, Lincoln had not accepted so much as a company of milita for federal service, despite many offers. The standing army numbered just 16,000, most of which were stationed in scattered detachments on the western frontier. In comparison, in South Carolina and Florida alone there were roughly the same number of troops with more being mustered in daily. This, to defend against two forts lightly garrisoned by federal troops (Ft. Sumter, for example, had less than 80 soldiers within its walls, plus a handful of civilian contractors). So exactly what tyranny was the south defending against in April 1861, apart from the tyranny of the northern population having the temerity to dare to elect a president they didn't particularly like?
<snip>
Oh, by the way - regarding that Sobran article, he might want learn some history himself before bemoaning American's lack of familiarity with it. He fires off a diatribe against paper money as something tyrants need, but fails to understand the the *Continental Congress* issued paper money during the Revolution! And of course, we *all* know what tyrants people like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John and Samuel Adams, John Jay, and all *that* crowd were, don't we...
The moral of the story - don't depend on Sobran for the facts.
cncfixxer - 30 Sep 2006 12:53 GMT WOW!! My first post and it seems like I've been able to get both sides angry. Commenting my point of view is akin to speaking about abortion ,,,, no mater what you say about it millions of people will hate you.
I guess I'm not ready for prime time . I will however continue to read and try to get more insight into a facinating subject.
S Witmer - 30 Sep 2006 23:40 GMT > WOW!! > My first post and it seems like I've been able to get both sides angry. Oh, I wouldn't say that. Just giving you food for thought.
> Commenting my point of view is akin to speaking about abortion ,,,, no mater > what you say about it millions of people will hate you. There are definitely passions about the Civil War, even nearly 150 years later, for sure.
> I guess I'm not ready for prime time . I will however continue to read and > try to get more insight into a facinating subject. Oh, post away. At least here on the moderated group you won't get anywhere near the blasting you might get on the unmoderated group if you post something someone really doesn't like. We have to try to be nice here. :-)
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 30 Sep 2006 23:46 GMT No, not angry. Just disagreeing.
And you *are* ready for prime time. Ask questions -- otherwise you will not have the opportunity to discover what really happened.
Bob
> WOW!! > My first post and it seems like I've been able to get both sides angry. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I guess I'm not ready for prime time . I will however continue to read and > try to get more insight into a facinating subject. Mike Stone - 02 Oct 2006 14:34 GMT > The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission > instead of due process. Er, _when_ did they do so? If you check what happened on April 12, 1861 you will see that it was the South, not the North, which first ppealed to military force. As for "due process", if anyone in the South claimed that the government was exceeding its powers, wasn't it for _them_ to go to court? Afaik they never tried to.
>If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion > their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the > plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men Mike Stone - 02 Oct 2006 16:25 GMT > If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion > their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the > plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men . Many southerners knew > the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way. The North, prior to the outbreak of war, had never made any demands on the South in regard to its slaves, except that they should not be taken into the Territories - the latter an arrangement which Thomas Jefferson had endorsed in the Northwest Ordinance as far back as 1787, the Monroe administration irt most of the Louisiana Purchase in 1820, and President Polk irt Oregon in 1846. Were they abolitionists or anti-Southern?
As late as 1861, after the Lower South had already withdrawn, the remaining Senators and Representatives, now of course predominantly northern, mustered a two-thirds vote of both Houses in favour of an Amendment prohibiting the US gov't from interfering with slavery in those states which retained it. The affirmative votes included nearly half the Republican membership in each House. This article was in process of being ratified when the Secessionists rendered it moot by initiating war.
As for "tyranny" what on earth is that supposed to mean? Depending on the legality or otherwise of secession, the Federal gov't in 1861-5 was either suppressing an insurrection or else prosecuting war against a foreign country which had arttacked the United States. There would seem to be nothing particularly tyrannnical about either action.
-- Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
"It is so stupid of modern civilisation to have given up believing in the devil, when he is its only explanation"
Ronald Knox
Alfred Montestruc - 29 Sep 2006 03:22 GMT > Common on these chat groups is the claim that not only was secession > legal, but that this fact was so obvious that no one really disputed it > in 1860-61 nor later. Since you quote me a lot I take it you are aiming this at me.
I never said that people did not dispute it. I am well aware that they did, I just don't think that they were being intellectually honest. They were being at least as much a bunch of hypocrites as slave owners who talked about "give me liberty or give me death".
>And those who opposed secession were close to > being criminal in their opposition. When you get ~ 620,000 people killed in the process when you can avoid the bloodbath by just letting the other side alone, , , yeah seems pretty criminal to me.
> A couple of recent quotes on this site illustrate the claim: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > The claim is false on two points: You assert those claims to be false.
> First those making it in 1860-61 and as well as in Y2K ignore the fact > that any arguments in favor of secession were and are instantly > countered with equally valid and reasoned arguments against the > proposition. First off if they were "equally valid" then clearly the solution that leaves less folks dead should be prefered by all, and someone who wants to pursue an "equally valid" solution that results in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and the other does not result in an immediate war, then that act is criminal.
> While the pro-secessionists make good points, they seem to > miss the fact that the pro-unionists also make good points. Depends on what you mean by good.
> Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal > than there were those who believed it to be legal. Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the northern side. It is a well know and well documented fact that many politicians, newspaper editors, and other public figures that spoke out against the war and against the legality of the government's actions were thrown in prison, and newspapers that printed anything of the kind stopped that or were closed.
This is along the lines of quoting Soviet public opinion on the virtues of communism in the 1930s when having any but the "correct" opinioin can get you in prison or worse. I boggle every time I hear you or anyone raise this issue when you know of numerous example of northern public officials jailed and otherwise mistreated for expression of an opinion that the Republican party did not approve of.
On the southern side, by mid war the typical southerner could give a tinker's damn about the legality of secession by the laws of the USA, as they were in a war of national survival of the CSA vs. USA, and either it was legal or not, but irrelivent by that point in time from their perspective.
>This is not to deny > that secession had - and has -its arguments. Rather it is to point > out that the Unionists also had their good points. Aside from the circular arguments about the supremacy clause, and that slavery was a bad thing, what?
> Given that neither side had a monopoly on the legality/illegality of > secession, we can turn to the second point: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to be insurrectionists, and raising a military force to put down the > insurrection. True but as you say this was not a group of state governments acting together and not firing a shot for months while repeatedly asking the federal government to negociate a seperation peacefully before opening fire when they would not leave, and had been in deliberate violation of state law for months.
In any case I would say that this rebellion (whiskey) was the fault of the government more than of the rebels, they would not take the tax in kind and the farmers in western Pensylvainia did not have money, which was one of the reasons they made whiskey for sale in the first place. If the government made the reasonable allowance of taking taxes in kind, then this would never have gotten very far.
> The military force was led, BTW, by a Revolutionary war general named > Light Horse Harry Lee. Hmm. I am sure, with that sort of heritage, any [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > fingers of one's hands. However, Jefferson's quick action prevented > Burr from attempting any secession. If he had any intention to do so in the first place which has never been proven.
> Andrew Jackson faced a more overt effort at secession with South > Carolina and we know what he thought of the idea. It is no accident > that in 1860-61, the Jacksonians were adamant that secession was not > permissible Taney may not have liked Lincoln but he upheld the > government in the Prize Cases. Sam Houston was booted out as Texas > governor because he opposed his state's secession. Not exactly true. He was opposed to secession as IIRC bad policy, but bowed to it after the referendum for secession passed by a landslide. He opposed alignment of Texas with the CSA, which was not subject to a referendum and that was what got him kicked out of office.
As in Texas goes it alone rather than with the CSA.
http://www.carpenoctem.tv/military/houston.html
I think that arguably this was more plausible especially if in addition to the protecting slavery noise in the declaration, they had included that the US Federal government was not able to keep civil order (which at the time it could not), and that Texas was reverting to her independent status, and would remain neutral as long as her borders were respected.
The fact that she had been independent and was seceeding in part as a result of the US Federal government's inability to function as it had implicitly promised to do in the treaty of annexation (keeping order) would give Texas much more of a leg to stand on in recognition of other powers.
>Andrew Johnson was > the only senator from a Confederate state to continue his duties in > Washington. Kind of shows that secession was popular in the south. If it were not as some claim, you would see more US federal officers in the north as refugees.
> In 1840, during the Gag Rule fight over anti-slavery petitions in the > House of Representatives, John Quincy Adams, the member from Braintree, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > his country, through their Representatives, in the eyes of the whole > world. I agree that the north has no monopoly on hypocrites.
> "Resolved, further, That the aforesaid JOHN Q. ADAMS, for this > in¬sult, the first of the kind ever offered to the Government, and for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > After a long debate, where the Old Man Eloquent defended himself and > made fools of the Southern members, the measure was tabled. ;-) he made fools of them but you post no link to the debate?
> In the ante-bellum world the most intrusive Federal law, indeed, except > for postmasters, the only Federal contact most Americans had, was the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > American History, a distinction for which there are a lot of > competition! How can you prove it is the worst?
--------------snip
Stephen Graham - 29 Sep 2006 21:40 GMT > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the > northern side. How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan?
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 14:51 GMT > > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with > > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the > > northern side. > > How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan? I do not know who Mr. Black is.
>From my perspective Mr. Buchanan's position was quite defendable. While he argued (incorrectly IMHO) that secession was illegal, he also argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal authority to stop them.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jb15.html
So as I see it he is more on my side than yours or the Lincoln administration's.
S Witmer - 02 Oct 2006 16:31 GMT > > > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with > > > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >From my perspective Mr. Buchanan's position was quite defendable. > While he argued (incorrectly IMHO) that secession was illegal, <boggle>
So now your opinion is more valid than *two* presidents (three if we include Andy Jackson) and the Supreme Court (on at least two occasions, no less - The Prize Cases where both majority and dissenting opinion described events in terms of rebellion and insurrection, NOT a war between two nations; and Texas v White)?
he also
> argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal > authority to stop them. I've always thought that was incredibly wishy-washy of Buchanan. If it was illegal, his duty as the Chief Executive was to see that the law was upheld.
> http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jb15.html > > So as I see it he is more on my side than yours or the Lincoln > administration's. And yet he didn't evacuate Sumter and even sent the Star the West expedition.
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 23:06 GMT > > > > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with > > > > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > <boggle> Boggle yourself. this is not a monarchy, or a society of nobles and commoners. My opinion is just as good as that of any president in a legal matter. Only where it is a judge with jurisdiction, do we have to accept his ruling, and we can still argue that the ruling is wrong.
> So now your opinion is more valid than *two* presidents (three if we > include Andy Jackson) and the Supreme Court (on at least two occasions, > no less Not before the war, and not without either the threat of arrest and prison, or where the war had already settled things (verdict of the battlefield). Taney by his own statments feared the president would order him arrested and imprisoned, and given the general situation it was not an unreasonable fear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taney_Arrest_Warrant
The problem with such threats, implicit or explicit is that we can now never truly know if those decisions were influnced by them, and that makes respect for the law much harder.
> - The Prize Cases where both majority and dissenting opinion > described events in terms of rebellion and insurrection, NOT a war > between two nations; and Texas v White)? Which was IIRC in the late 1860s, while the court had been packed with Radical Republicans, and where threats to hang confederate government officials for treason were very much in the wind, and you expect us to in that environment to accept such a ruling as being unbiased by either fear or Republican partisanship?
Please spare me.
> he also > > argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal > > authority to stop them. > > I've always thought that was incredibly wishy-washy of Buchanan. If it > was illegal, Illegal and unconstitutional are not the same thing. Be careful of your terms. If it was never made illegal by congress, then he had no authority to enforce laws that did not exist, and it was too late (given the ex post facto clause) to write new ones to cover the hole.
Of course from my perspective Lincoln did not care for legalities.
> his duty as the Chief Executive was to see that the law > was upheld. Right. And he said he had no legal leg to stand on to do what you think right.
> > http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jb15.html > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And yet he didn't evacuate Sumter and even sent the Star the West > expedition. Yes I agree it would have been better for the nation if he had removed the object of friction from secession. If Lincoln had been denyied the chance to play his little game, and was presented with an accomplished fact, the war might never have been fought.
S Witmer - 03 Oct 2006 01:42 GMT > > > > > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with > > > > > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > commoners. My opinion is just as good as that of any president in a > legal matter. But *3* of them? Two of whom were lawyers (Lincoln and Buchanan)? And Buchanan's Attorney General? And an entire sitting Supreme Court, on two separate occasions?
There is opinion and then there is expert opinion. A medical opinion from a doctor may just be an opinion but that doesn't mean I'm going to give your medical advice the same weight as my GP. And if I have medical opinion from nine or ten doctors who all tell me the same thing, I'm pretty sure your opinion is going to carry very little weight. Sooner or later the weight of a number of what could be considered authoritative opinions is going to override your non-authoritative opinion. Yes, you can still hold that opinion just as much as some might cling to the opinion that the earth is flat, but don't expect it to hold much water.
Only where it is a judge with jurisdiction, do we have
> to accept his ruling, and we can still argue that the ruling is wrong. Argue away. You have two Supreme Court decisions that disagree with you. Even Roger Taney doesn't agree with you.
> > So now your opinion is more valid than *two* presidents (three if we > > include Andy Jackson) and the Supreme Court (on at least two occasions, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taney_Arrest_Warrant We've been over this, Al. The "Lincoln threatened to arrest Taney" story is pretty much discredited. And the fact remains that Taney *chose*, yes *chose*, to remained loyal to the Union and kept his Supreme Court seat when he could have verily easily headed south with the other rebels.
> The problem with such threats, implicit or explicit is that we can now > never truly know if those decisions were influnced by them, and that > makes respect for the law much harder. I've never heard Roger Taney described as spineless.
> > - The Prize Cases where both majority and dissenting opinion > > described events in terms of rebellion and insurrection, NOT a war [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in that environment to accept such a ruling as being unbiased by either > fear or Republican partisanship? The Prize Cases were IIRC in 1862. And the fact remains that the language of both majority and dissenting opinions described what was happening as a rebellion. The dissenting opinion could have easily tap-danced around that and avoided such language without incurring Republican wrath, but they did not. And one wonders, if they were all so terrified, why was the decision not unanimous? If Taney and his dissenting compatriots were shaking in their boots, one wonders why they *dared* to dissent?
> Please spare me. Only if you spare me your theories that Roger Taney was a coward, but still openly dissented in the Prize Cases.
> > he also > > > argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > the chance to play his little game, and was presented with an > accomplished fact, the war might never have been fought. scribe7716 - 03 Oct 2006 17:45 GMT > Boggle yourself. this is not a monarchy, or a society of nobles and > commoners. My opinion is just as good as that of any president in a > legal matter. No, while you have as much right to an opinion as anyone else that does not mean that your opinion is just as good as that of anyon else.
Stephen Graham - 02 Oct 2006 18:41 GMT >>> Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with >>> the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the >>> northern side. >> How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan? > > I do not know who Mr. Black is. Mr Black was Attorney General of the United States for most of the Buchanan administration and Secretary of State for the final months, beginning on 17 December 1860. He drafted the opinion regarding secession that Buchanan relied upon.
Neither Mr Black or Mr Buchanan was influenced by "heavy handed control of the media".
>>From my perspective Mr. Buchanan's position was quite defendable. > While he argued (incorrectly IMHO) that secession was illegal, he also > argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal > authority to stop them. Specifically, Mr Buchanan and Mr Black felt that the Federal Government could not use force to compel the states to rescind their ordinances of secession. They were wrong.
The government could, however, use force to defend federal property, including Ft Sumter and Pickens, as well as to defend against attack by external forces.
One should remember that Mr Buchanan was hoping to stall for as long as possible so that Mr Lincoln would have to deal with the problem.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 02 Oct 2006 23:06 GMT No, no, no. You are obviously wrong. The evil Republican press had brainwashed Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Black even before Lincoln took office. There is no other answer why they, as well as the hundreds of thousands of Northern Democrats answered the Call on April 15. :>)
Bob
Alfred Montestruc wrote:
> Stephen Graham wrote: >> Alfred Montestruc wrote: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan? > I do not know who Mr. Black is. Mr Black was Attorney General of the United States for most of the Buchanan administration and Secretary of State for the final months, beginning on 17 December 1860. He drafted the opinion regarding secession that Buchanan relied upon. Neither Mr Black or Mr Buchanan was influenced by "heavy handed control
of the media".
Alfred Montestruc - 03 Oct 2006 01:01 GMT > No, no, no. You are obviously wrong. The evil Republican press had > brainwashed Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Black even before Lincoln took [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > of the media". And did not agree with the Republicans as to the legality of forcing people to stay in the union. Thank you for the evidence supporting my point.
Stephen Graham - 03 Oct 2006 11:32 GMT > And did not agree with the Republicans as to the legality of forcing > people to stay in the union. Thank you for the evidence supporting my > point. As I noted, Mr Black and Mr Buchanan were wrong. Specifically, they intentionally took a stance that absolved them from acting, holding to an interpretation of the Militia Act of 1795 not consonant with the intent or logic.
You should note, however, that they did firmly believe in the Federal power to hold Ft Sumter and Ft Pickens in the face of opposition. They were no more willing to surrender the forts than Lincoln was. So the proximate cause of the Civil War would still have occurred.
jfe@ams.org - 29 Sep 2006 21:40 GMT > > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned > > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > were thrown in prison, and newspapers that printed anything of the kind > stopped that or were closed. This kind of thing is often asserted, but is nonetheless not true. There was no "heavy handed control of media" by the Republicans. Some editors and papers were sanctioned, but many more were not. The opposition press was very active and vocal throughout the war.
JFE
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 29 Sep 2006 23:31 GMT And even if the statement were true -- which it is not -- the heavy handed Black Republicans could hardly be said to control the press in April, 1861.
There was never anything in the Free Sates to come close to the censorship imposed on the slave state press preventing the latter from reporting any story which might be interpreted as anti-slavery.
Take care,
Bob
Judy and Bob Huddleston 10643 Sperry Street Northglenn, CO 80234-3612 huddleston.r@comcast.net
"The firing on that fort will inaugurate a civil war greater than any the world yet seen and I do not feel competent to advise you. Mr. President, at this time it is suicide, murder, and will lose us every friend at the North. You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest which extends from mountain to ocean, and legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary; it puts us in the wrong; it is fatal." Robert Toombs, April 11, 1861 SNIP
> > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with > > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > JFE Alfred Montestruc - 30 Sep 2006 04:24 GMT > > > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned > > > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > This kind of thing is often asserted, but is nonetheless not true. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/adams3.html
----quote------ Charles W. Smith, a biographer of Taney (1973), gives this account of the scope of the arrests of civilians:
Without the sanction of law the federal government arrested men by the thousands and confined them in military prisons. The number of such executive arrests was certainly over 13,000, and it has been estimated to have been as high as 38,000 (Columbia Law Review, XXI, 527-28, 1921). --------end quote------
If you are going to poo-poo the article for being on Lew Rockwell, note the Columbia Law Review reference.
Even 13,000 civilians arrested and detained in military prisons w/o trial, let alone 38,000 for months or years for expression of opinion disliked by the Republican party is VERY intimidating. Your assertation to the contrary seems quite absurd to me.
> There > was no "heavy handed control of media" by the Republicans. Some > editors > and papers were sanctioned, Is that what being locked up in a military prison without trial or any vague form of legal process?
I was under the impression that sanctions were more along the lines of a boycott.
>but many more were not. Of course, those who did not express what the Republicans did not want said.
> The opposition > press was very active and vocal throughout the war. Sure, as long as they stayed away from issues the Republicans wanted them to.
ray o'hara - 30 Sep 2006 23:40 GMT > > > > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned > > > > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > Sure, as long as they stayed away from issues the Republicans wanted > them to. using idealogues like adams, the kennedy brothers or sobran is like using matt drudge for news. their facts range from incorrect to made up. adams is not a credible source
Alfred Montestruc - 01 Oct 2006 13:34 GMT > > > > > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned > > > > > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > using idealogues like adams, How about Smith?
http://www.law.upenn.edu/about/history/medallions/taney/index.html ---------quote Roger B. Taney, Jacksonian Jurist, by Charles W. Smith, Jr., University of North Carolina Press, 1936. -----------------end quote
Clearly the soruce he quotes exists, and it is creditable that the source would have something to say on the subject.
http://www.amazon.com/Roger-B-Taney-Jacksonian-Jurist/dp/0306705559
It is also clear that the work is cited a lot in serious academic works see the above site that indicates it is cited by 23 different books including a history of the US Supreme Court.
This is the source Adams claims, and he states Smith was quoting the Columbia law Review. I should hope you are not going to accuse the Columbia Law Review of being not credible.
>the kennedy brothers So what is wrong with their work in terms of citings? A few mistakes do not make them dishonest. It takes consistent use of non-existent sources, or deliberate false quotes of soruces.
> or sobran is like using > matt drudge for news. their facts range from incorrect to made up. Uh huh.
When people on this newsgroup claimed words to the effect that blacks never fought on the southern side, I used the Kennedy book "The South Was Right!" To find numerous first person accounts from various creditble sources that this was false, which included US Army sources, British Military observers, and accounts of Confederate officers. Some were first hand accounts of black confederate veterans, backed up by other (white) veterans of the same unit. It would be difficult or impossibe to put a percentage on the number of fighting men, nor do I claim they were on "official" CS Army muster lists as fighting men, more troops fought as state milita anyway. I only claim that numerous contemporary creditable sources state that some existed, and specific examples are given, and that the Kennedy Brothers book gave good references to find them.
One example is that of British observer Fremantle's account of an armed slave (no doubt on the unit muster list as a body servant) escorting Union POWs to the rear areas alone at Gettiesburg, unsupervised by any white confederates, and when questioned by a general as to what he was doing, said that he was escorting prisoners to the rear and made disparaging remarks about the yankees.
http://mainemilitia.com/node/548
---------quote-------- "A negro dressed in full yankee uniform, with a rifle at full cock, leading along a barefooted white man, with whom he evidently changed clothes. General Longstreeted stopped the pair, and asked the black man what it meant. The negro replied, "The two soldiers in charge of this here yank have got drunk, so for fear he should escape I have took care of him and brought him through that little town." The cosequential manner of the negro, and the supreme contempt witch which he spoke to his prisoner, were most amusing. This little episode of a southern black leading a white yankee soldier through a Northern village, alone and of his own accord, would not have been gratiying to an abolistionist.Nor would the sympathizers both in England and in the North feel encouraged if they could hear the language of detestation and contempt with which the numerous negroes with the Southern armies speak of their so called liberators." ------------end quote
> adams is not a credible source Yeah right.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 01 Oct 2006 17:30 GMT Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_:
Like most angry books, this one contains a few facts onto which the authors pile false and misleading statements, invalid assumptions, weak logic, poor history and selected quotations in order to arrive at their predetermined conclusions.
...... "A government that does not rule with the consent of the governed fails the test of legitimacy and therefore has no legal right to rule and shall be regarded as a tyranny." Such a government "has by its own actions renounced any claim to a legal right to govern." Few would quarrel with these comments.
The Kennedys then apply these observations to the hated Federal government. The criteria, however, cut both ways. They can more accurately be applied to ante-bellum South Carolina and Mississippi, where more than one-half of the population was - under state tyranny - enslaved. Folks in western Virginia in the early 1860s used the same arguments against the rest of the Old Dominion and the Confederacy.
Certain things are clearly true and need to be said. Many white Northerners were (and are) racists; many were (and are) hypocrites. Most Federal soldiers did not bathe often enough to suit modern olfactory nerves. Lots of Northerners spoke (and speak) with an accent that grates painfully upon the ears.
...... None of these truths, however, alters that fact that on both of the two big issues of the mid-19th century the South was basically wrong and the North was basically right. Slavery was certainly legal and secession arguably so, but both were so wrong and so stupid that there are no sound grounds on which either can be defended.
The time has come for us white Southerners to admit that our Confederate ancestors -- most whom were brave, admirable, honorable people devoted to their homes, families and cause - were in the wrong.
_The South Was Right!_ is an exercise in unproductive bitterness. It does not further our understanding of antebellum America or the Civil War. It does give an insight into the mind-set of some late 20th-century Americans. It will have great appeal to those whose retirement funds are invested Confederate government securities. White Southerners who like to wallow in self-pity will also it edifying.
Richard McMurry
Reprinted from _The Civil War News_, October 1994, p. 33
SNIP
> >the kennedy brothers > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > examples are given, and that the Kennedy Brothers book gave good > references to find them. SNIP of example
> > adams is not a credible source > > Yeah right. Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 00:23 GMT > Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_: > > Like most angry books, this one contains a few facts onto which the > authors pile false and misleading statements, A few facts? How about those quoted from "The Conduct of Federal Troops in Louisiana" David C. Edmonds ed., The Acadiana Press; Lafayette Louisiana 1988, which is reprinted from a report made by the contemporary governor of the state documenting the atrocities of Federal Troops on citizens of Louisiana?
Or how about the execution of 10 hostages by Federal Troops in Missouri (over the dissapperance of a Federal informant, aka spy.) where Mr. Lincoln soon after this mass murder which was reported with horror in Britain and other places around the world, promoted the officer (General McNeil) to Bigadier General? (Confederate Veteran, vol XXXVI, No 1 Jan-Feb 1988 page 27)
Oh, by the way, spys were killed by both sides but I do not recall the confederate side killing hostages in exchange for the execution of a spy, let alone the dissapperence of one. Lincoln promoted this monster, where this execution was recent public knowledge, that would have rated a hanging if he were a German General after WWII as did many German officers for mistreatment of civilians.
Dare we ask what does this make Lincoln?
Since you would no doubt claim this a fabrication here is a 100% independent source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McNeil
----------------quote----------------- The Palmyra Massacre His subsequent campaign in Monroe County, Missouri, was also regarded by some as excessively brutal and indiscriminate. He himself said that "where a Union man could not live in peace, a secessionist should not." He concluded his campaign on September 14, taking Palmyra after its abandonment by Porter, and avenging the abduction and presumptive murder of Union loyalist (and alleged informer) Andrew Allsman by executing ten Confederate prisoners in what came to be known as the "Palmyra Massacre." McNeil was criticized even by Union sympathizers for the act, and excoriated in the American and European press. -------end quote---------------
Or the use of Confederate POWs as human shields? (Confederate Veteran, vol XXXIV, No 1 Jan-Feb 1986 page 7)
Of course I am sure you will claim confederate veteran is biased as a source, so how about the facts cited from "Official Records: War of the Rebellion" which documents numeous rapes and many other atrocities against southern civilians black and white by UNION troops? Are you going to claim the US government lied about the behavior of it's own troops? Are these all made up citations? I see several pages of citations to those federal documents in "The South Was Right!".
These are "a few facts"? That book has 28 pages of end notes citing the specific refernces to these "few facts" where each page has about 22 specific citations or approximatly 600 specific citations. That is not counting the seperate bibliography.
Few facts indeed.
HankC - 02 Oct 2006 16:31 GMT > > Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (General McNeil) to Bigadier General? (Confederate Veteran, vol XXXVI, > No 1 Jan-Feb 1988 page 27) It should be noted that McNeill commanded troops of the Missouri State Militia and not of the United States...
HankC
Alfred Montestruc - 04 Oct 2006 09:35 GMT > > > Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_: > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It should be noted that McNeill commanded troops of the Missouri State > Militia and not of the United States... At that time, yes. IIRC he was given command of other units, after Lincoln approved his promotion. So what?
Alfred Montestruc - 05 Oct 2006 19:42 GMT > Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > secession arguably so, but both were so wrong and so stupid that there > are no sound grounds on which either can be defended. This is absurd.
While in the end slavery is wrong, asserting the people who by accident of history grew up in a society where slave owning was legal and the primary means of economic and social advancement stupid, is itself stupid.
Pose a plausible means of the slave owners (or a fraction of them) ending slavery that does not impoverish the slave owners as a class and cause them to lose all they had gained.
Human being operate on a basis of self-interest and interest of close kin and then other folks, anything else is hogwash.
As to secession, it is a very intelligent solution to a society with two or more atagonistic groups where some preexisting see India and Pakistan, or the break-up of the Soviet Union.
> The time has come for us white Southerners to admit that our > Confederate ancestors -- most whom were brave, admirable, honorable > people devoted to their homes, families and cause - were in the wrong. Explicitly how? Pose a plausible path.
> _The South Was Right!_ is an exercise in unproductive bitterness. I have read the book and do not see the bitterness. I see an ernest intent to return power to the people, and sells books!
---snip
ray o'hara - 06 Oct 2006 02:53 GMT > > ...... > > None of these truths, however, alters that fact that on both of the two [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > primary means of economic and social advancement stupid, is itself > stupid. western world opinion was against slavery. the south was fighting the modern world in trying to preserve it. if they had had any sense they would have been looking for a way out that didn't disrupt things. the north was willing to let time take its course the south tried to hold on the to the past and pretend things would never change. it was the souths bad choices that ended slavery abruptly.
> Pose a plausible means of the slave owners (or a fraction of them) > ending slavery that does not impoverish the slave owners as a class and > cause them to lose all they had gained. the south resisted all attempts at that discussion, gradual emancipation had worked well in the north.. compensated emancipation was also brought up. when such matters were discussed the south fell back on arguments about the social aspects of slavery needing to be maintained. plenty of methods were in play. but the south was not in a listening mood.
> Human being operate on a basis of self-interest and interest of close > kin and then other folks, anything else is hogwash. the trick being knowing what that that self-interest is. starting a war proved to be not in their best interest. self-interest does not mean holding on to the past with a fanatical grip, sometimes it means you have to adapt to a changing world..
> As to secession, it is a very intelligent solution to a society with > two or more atagonistic groups where some preexisting see India and > Pakistan, or the break-up of the Soviet Union. the differences between muslim pakistan and hindu india were quite broad. the soviet union was a collection of completely different countries with different laguages, religions and customs. the united states was made up of one liguistic group sharing similar customs, religion and hertage.
india and the pakis have fought several wars and are always on the verge of war. russia is still trying to maintain their grip on several of thew remaing "republics" and it is interfering in the internal affairs of others,
> > The time has come for us white Southerners to admit that our > > Confederate ancestors -- most whom were brave, admirable, honorable > > people devoted to their homes, families and cause - were in the wrong. > > Explicitly how? Pose a plausible path. gradual emancipation. compensated emancipation. there were many paths. the south resisted any talk of them. they considered "African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization". such attitudes were not going to be changed easily.
> > _The South Was Right!_ is an exercise in unproductive bitterness. > > I have read the book and do not see the bitterness. I see an ernest > intent to return power to the people, and sells books! we know you don't al. it is not an attempt to return power to the people. it is an attempt to turn the clock back to more repressive times. its funny how libertarians claim tobe for personal liberty when all they ever advocate is a system of economic slavery.
Robert Kolker - 06 Oct 2006 15:24 GMT > western world opinion was against slavery. the south was fighting the > modern world in trying to preserve it. if they had had any sense they would > have been looking for a way out that didn't disrupt things. the north was > willing to let time take its course the south tried to hold on the to the > past and pretend things would never change. it was the souths bad choices > that ended slavery abruptly. Had the Southrons been more farsighted and less ideologically commited to (so-called) State's Rights, they could have negotiated a partial subsidy for a long term manumission of the slaves. For example agreeing to a definite date, say Jan 1, 1901 for total manumission, they could have gotten most of the value back on their slaves (from labor and subsidy) and have done with slavery in the next generation. That would have provided time to get used to a new social order.
In the mean time the Southrons could have let their slaves take on wage labor in the territories and gotten back a percentage of the wages as an agency fee. Thus as slavery wound down, it would have paid for its own liquidation. It sure beats war and hundreds of thousands dead.
Given that Southron whites and negroes lived (unequally) cheek to jowl, as the social order changed negroes could have been peacefully integrated into the Southron social order without the stain of slavery. A system of education provided to the children of slaves could have conducted them into a livable relationship with Southron whites. It would not have been social equality exactly, but it would have been a humane transformation. It sure would have been better than what happened at Selma.
Just about any choice was better than the Civil War. Think of 620,000 souls not destroyed and a century and a half of rancor to follow. If the Southrons could manage their own transition to modernity they would not have the humiliation of military defeat haunting them and the generations to follow. It was not until after WW2 that Southrons more or less reconciled themselves to modern times. Southron boys in the armed forces socializing and fighting (and sometimes dying) with Yankees against a common foe did a lot to put the pain of defeat into the past. Anyway, that is my scenario of how slavery might have ended in the U.S.
Bob Kolker
cncfixxer - 02 Oct 2006 02:30 GMT This jury sounds undecided regarding the question of legality.
We live under the same Constitution so the Litmus test should be the same today as it was then .Not! ... because, the Justice's of the Supreme Court are and always have been swayed by personal opinion. This ebb and tide can be seen by the dozens of rulings the Supreme Court has reversed itself, so in my opinion if we want to figure out how the Constitutionality may have been settled let's look at contemporary rulings of the Pre Civil War Court, {Dred Scott v Standford,was the most famous}... it was a slam dunk for at least 5 of the Justice's. Chief Justice Roger B. Taney ruled that blacks were not citizens and therefore could not sue in federal court. Taney further inflamed antislavery forces by declaring that Congress had no right to ban slavery from U.S. territories.
It makes me wonder why the Southern States failed to persue a legal remedy.
It sounds too simple ...what am I missing? Did they try to prevail in the Courts?
Tom
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 14:51 GMT > This jury sounds undecided regarding the question of legality. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > It makes me wonder why the Southern States failed to persue a legal remedy. It was not up to them to challenge the legality of their own actions. If the president felt their actions improper he should have taken them to court.
> It sounds too simple ...what am I missing? Did they try to prevail in the > Courts? > > Tom S Witmer - 02 Oct 2006 16:31 GMT > > This jury sounds undecided regarding the question of legality. > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > If the president felt their actions improper he should have taken them > to court. And of course we all know the proper thing to do when someone is attacking you with deadly force is to ask them to step on down to the courthouse with you so you can file charges...
<snip>
wjyoung - 30 Sep 2006 23:46 GMT >>>Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned >>>out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > and papers were sanctioned, but many more were not. The opposition > press was very active and vocal throughout the war. Doesn't the First Amendment bar Congress from sanctioning even one editor or newspaper?
Alfred Montestruc - 01 Oct 2006 13:00 GMT > >>>Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned > >>>out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Doesn't the First Amendment bar Congress from sanctioning even one > editor or newspaper? http://www.constitution.org/billofr_.htm
You mean:
---------quote---- Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. -------------end quote---------
Well
1) It was not (initially) congress that was doing it, it was the president's men.
2) They were not concerned with legalitieis and arrested and imprisoned (and searched their property and siezed any papers or other stuff they though subversive) folks because they thought they should be locked up and had no warrents, nor trials or any nonsense like that (Badges, we don't need no steeenking Badges!!)
So they were violating more the following:
------------quote Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V]
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
---------end quote.
No public trial, no warrent, no charges even. Just like the bunch of fascists the Republicans were.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 01 Oct 2006 17:30 GMT Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty years whenever white Southerners thought that a particular magazine or newspaper might contain ANY story the slightest bit critical of the Peculiar Institution.
Take care,
Bob
Judy and Bob Huddleston 10643 Sperry Street Northglenn, CO 80234-3612 huddleston.r@comcast.net
..the greatest and the noblest man of the last century was Abraham Lincoln...Though America was his motherland and he was an American, he regarded the whole world as his native land.
Mahatma Gandhi, August 26, 1905
SNIP
> > > This kind of thing is often asserted, but is nonetheless not true. There > > > was no "heavy handed control of media" by the Republicans. Some editors [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Doesn't the First Amendment bar Congress from sanctioning even one > > editor or newspaper? SNIP
> Well > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So they were violating more the following: SNIP
> ---------end quote. > > No public trial, no warrent, no charges even. Just like the bunch of > fascists the Republicans were. wjyoung - 02 Oct 2006 00:23 GMT > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Bob Hello Bob,
We were discussing whether the actions of the US, specifically the President of the US, ran afoul the First Amendment. As Alfred noted, the President was not enforcing the law as he sanctioned newspaper editors, and thus it could not be true that Congress violated the First Amendment since Congress was not involved with those actions.
As for your comment, the First Amendment only restrains the lawmaking power of Congress. It does not bar the States from making law that abridges the freedom of speech or of the press.
S Witmer - 02 Oct 2006 14:34 GMT > > Alfred conveniently f |
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