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The Illegality of Secession

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Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 24 Sep 2006 13:41 GMT
Common on these chat groups is the claim that not only was secession
legal, but that this fact was so obvious that no one really disputed it
in 1860-61 nor later. And those who opposed secession were close to
being criminal in their opposition.

A couple of recent quotes on this site illustrate the claim:

"Secession was never illegal, nor unconstitutional under a reasonable
interpritation. Defending oneself against a federal government hell
bent on breaking the law is not illegal either."

"What would you have done in his shoes presuming you felt secession
was legal, and in this case moral and proper. Let the USA continue to
keep armed troops in control of a fort on your sovereign territory,
with artillery that could be used to bombard a major city without even
bothering to recognize you?"

The claim is false on two points:

First those making it in 1860-61 and as well as in Y2K ignore the fact
that any arguments in favor of secession were and are instantly
countered with equally valid and reasoned arguments against the
proposition. While the pro-secessionists make good points, they seem to
miss the fact that the pro-unionists also make good points.

Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
than there were those who believed it to be legal. This is not to deny
that secession had - and has -its arguments. Rather it is to point
out that the Unionists also had their good points.

Given that neither side had a monopoly on the legality/illegality of
secession, we can turn to the second point:

How had secession or the threat of secession been handled previously in
American history?

Although not strictly speaking secessionists, the farmers involved in
the 1894 Whiskey Rebellion threatened the central government and the
Washington Administration reacted quickly, declaring the tax resisters
to be insurrectionists, and raising a military force to put down the
insurrection.

The military force was led, BTW, by a Revolutionary war general named
Light Horse Harry Lee. Hmm. I am sure, with that sort of heritage, any
son of Light Horse Harry would have supported the government in 1861.

Under President Jefferson, Aaron Burr may or may not have tried to
split off the western territories from the United States. Jefferson
reacted much as Washington had, arresting Burr and trying him for
treason. Chief Justice Marshall, acting as a district court judge (a la
Taney in Merryman), set such a high standard for treason convictions
that not only was Burr not convicted but since then the number of those
even tried to for treason, let alone convicted, can be counted on the
fingers of one's hands. However, Jefferson's quick action prevented
Burr from attempting any secession.

Andrew Jackson faced a more overt effort at secession with South
Carolina and we know what he thought of the idea. It is no accident
that in 1860-61, the Jacksonians were adamant that secession was not
permissible Taney may not have liked Lincoln but he upheld the
government in the Prize Cases. Sam Houston was booted out as Texas
governor because he opposed his state's secession. Andrew Johnson was
the only senator from a Confederate state to continue his duties in
Washington.

In 1840, during the Gag Rule fight over anti-slavery petitions in the
House of Representatives, John Quincy Adams, the member from Braintree,
offered a petition from some of his constituents, calling for the
dissolution of the Union because of the stain of slavery.

The Southern members reacted with fury. Although many had themselves
threatened secession if the Yankees did not support slavery and close
down the abolitionists, evidently it was not permissible for a
Northerner to do the same. The slave state representatives chose Thomas
Marshall, of Kentucky, nephew of the late chief justice, to bring
forward a motion of censure:

"Whereas, the Federal Constitution is a permanent form of Gov¬ernment
and of perpetual obligation, until altered or modified in the mode
pointed out by that instrument, and the members of this House, deriving
their political character and powers from the same, are sworn to
support it, and the dissolution of the Union necessarily implies the
destruction of that instrument, the overthrow of the American
Repub¬lic, and the extinction of our national existence: A
proposition, there¬fore, to the Representatives of the people, to
dissolve the organic law framed by their constituents, and to support
which they are com¬manded by those constituents to be sworn, before
they can enter upon the execution of the political powers created by
it, and entrusted to them, is a high breach of privilege, a contempt
offered to this House, a direct proposition to the Legislature and each
member of it, to com¬mit perjury; and involves, necessarily, in its
execution and its conse¬quences, the destruction of our country and
the crime of high trea¬son.

"Resolved, therefore, That the Hon. JOHN Q. ADAMS, a member from
Massachusetts, in presenting for the consideration of the House of
Representatives of the United States, a petition praying the
dis¬solution of the Union, has offered the deepest indignity to the
House of which he is a member; an insult to the people of the United
States, of which that House is the Legislative organ; and will, if this
outrage be permitted to pass unrebuked and unpunished, have disgraced
his country, through their Representatives, in the eyes of the whole
world.

"Resolved, further, That the aforesaid JOHN Q. ADAMS, for this
in¬sult, the first of the kind ever offered to the Government, and for
the wound which he has permitted to be aimed, through his
instru¬mentality, at the Constitution and existence of his country,
the peace, the security, and liberty of the people of these States,
might well be held to merit expulsion from the national councils; and
the House deem it an act of grace and mercy, when they only inflict
upon him their severest censure for conduct so utterly unworthy of his
past relations to the State, and his present position. This they hereby
do for the maintenance of their own purity and dignity; for the rest,
they turn him over to his own conscience and the indignation of all
true American citizens."

After a long debate, where the Old Man Eloquent defended himself and
made fools of the Southern members, the measure was tabled.

In the ante-bellum world the most intrusive Federal law, indeed, except
for postmasters, the only Federal contact most Americans had, was the
1850 Fugitive Slave Law. In essence, forcing Northern citizens to
become slave catchers. When Wisconsin attempted nullification, the
Supreme Court overruled them: national law is supreme over state law.
There were no complaints from the slave states, indeed, there were
compliments. Any complaints were reserved for Free States which had the
gall to attempt to maintain the right of state's to protect their
citizens from arrest and deportation into slavery without due process
of law.

In the middle fifties, during the fight over Kansas, Secretary of War
Jefferson Davis responded to the efforts of the Free State settlers
resisting the Lecompton territorial legislature - and the latter, do
not forget, stands as the worse example of fraudulent voting in
American History, a distinction for which there are a lot of
competition!

Secretary of War Jefferson Davis to Bvt. Major General Persifor F.
Smith, 3 September 1856: "The position of the insurgents ... is that
of open rebellion against the laws and constitutional authorities, with
such an open manifestation of a purpose to spread devastation over the
land, as no longer justifies further hesitation or indulgence. ...
patriotism and humanity alike require that rebellion should be promptly
crushed."

    And three weeks later, the Adjutant General wrote to Smith, quoting
the Secretary of War, "'The only distinction of parties which, in
the military point of view, it is necessary to note, is that which
distinguishes those who respect and maintain the laws and organized
government from those who combine for revolutionary resistance to the
constituted authorities and laws of the land. The armed combination of
the latter class came within the denunciation of the President's
proclamation, and are proper subjects upon which to employ the military
laws.'"

    The next year the Government attempted to put down what the Buchanan
administration saw as rebellion in Utah by the Mormons. Although there
was little actual fighting, the Army, under the command of Albert
Sidney Johnson was embarrassed by the Mormon irregulars and only the
efforts of Buchanan's emissaries and the desire of Brigham Young to
avoid all out war prevented major bloodshed. Buchanan trumpeted the
results as a vindication of American might over lawless religious
separatists.

It is understandable and pardonable that when the slave states
attempted secession, there were a lot of Americans, both North and
South, who not only did not feel that secession was legal, but, to the
contrary, saw it as rebellion and treason.

Take care,

Bob

Judy and Bob Huddleston
10643 Sperry Street
Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
huddleston.r@comcast.net

..the greatest and the noblest man of the last century was Abraham
Lincoln...Though America was his motherland and he was an American, he
regarded the whole world as his native land.

                    Mahatma Gandhi, August 26, 1905
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 24 Sep 2006 23:54 GMT
I was asked privately about the Hartford Convention, which slipped my
mind as I wrote. So I will add to the above discussion:

As a result of New England dissatisfaction with the course of the War
of 1812, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island sent delegates to
a meeting in Hartford in October 1814. Federalists self selected
delegates in Vermont and New Hampshire.

Contrary to neo-Confederate myth, the Hartford Convention rejected
resolutions to secede. The convention claimed a state's rights
position which the citizens of New England rejected. Nationalist
Federalists such as John Quincy Adams migrated to the
Democratic-Republican Party of Jefferson and Madison and the Federalist
Party faded away.

A final report (January 5, 1815, was released just as news arrived of
the American victory at New Orleans and the signing of the Treaty of
Ghent which ended the war.

Bob
ray o'hara - 25 Sep 2006 00:51 GMT
> I was asked privately about the Hartford Convention, which slipped my
> mind as I wrote. So I will add to the above discussion:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a meeting in Hartford in October 1814. Federalists self selected
> delegates in Vermont and New Hampshire.

the whigs sent delegates, not new england. it was a party convention and it
had no official  recognition.
Gary Charbonneau - 25 Sep 2006 02:33 GMT
> > I was asked privately about the Hartford Convention, which slipped my
> > mind as I wrote. So I will add to the above discussion:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>  the whigs sent delegates, not new england. it was a party convention and it
> had no official  recognition.

I'm sure you meant to say "Federalists," not "Whigs."  The Whig Party
did not come into existence until 1833/34.

While the Harford Convention was indeed essentially a Federalist Party
project, the convention assembled pursuant to a call from the
Massachusetts legislature, and 23 of 26 delegates, from Massachusetts,
Connecticut, and Rhode Island, were appointed by state legislatures;
the 3 remaining delegates, from New Hampshire (whose government was
under Republican control) and Vermont, were not.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 25 Sep 2006 13:45 GMT
While not germane to my argument, I am curious: it was my understanding
that "delegates" from VT and NH were not appointed by the states but
were self selected by the Federalist Party. I am be and probalby am,
wrong.

Bob
SNIP

> While the Harford Convention was indeed essentially a Federalist Party
> project, the convention assembled pursuant to a call from the
> Massachusetts legislature, and 23 of 26 delegates, from Massachusetts,
> Connecticut, and Rhode Island, were appointed by state legislatures;
> the 3 remaining delegates, from New Hampshire (whose government was
> under Republican control) and Vermont, were not.
Gary Charbonneau - 26 Sep 2006 01:44 GMT
> While not germane to my argument, I am curious: it was my understanding
> that "delegates" from VT and NH were not appointed by the states but
> were self selected by the Federalist Party. I am be and probalby am,
> wrong.

Bob: You are wrong about being wrong.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 25 Sep 2006 13:45 GMT
@#$%%^&  :>(

Yep. Federalists. Federalists. Federalist.

Fortunately my typo does not change the result: secession  was not
looked upon very kindly by Americans whether in 1794, 1814 or 1850.

SNIP
> I'm sure you meant to say "Federalists," not "Whigs."  The Whig Party
> did not come into existence until 1833/34.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the 3 remaining delegates, from New Hampshire (whose government was
> under Republican control) and Vermont, were not.
Rich Rostrom - 26 Sep 2006 01:44 GMT
>@#$%%^&  :>(
>
>Yep. Federalists. Federalists. Federalist.
>
>Fortunately my typo does not change the result: secession  was not
>looked upon very kindly by Americans whether in 1794, 1814 or 1850.

Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the
Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by
the Republicans of the time to discredit
the Federalist; quite successfully too.
| He had a shorter,  more scraggly, and even less    |
| flattering beard than Yassir Arafat, and Escalante |
| never conceived that such a thing was possible.    |
|  -- William Goldman, _Heat_                        |
Alfred Montestruc - 26 Sep 2006 11:40 GMT
> >@#$%%^&  :>(
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by
> the Republicans of the time

The Republican Party (which you do state as you capitalized
"Republican" and did not write "Democratic-Republican", if you do not
mean "Republican Party" state so)  did not exist at the time of the
Hartford convention.

The modern republican party was founded on 6 July 1854.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic-Republican_Party_(United_States)

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-119570597.html
scribe7716 - 26 Sep 2006 16:35 GMT
> > Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the
> > Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> mean "Republican Party" state so)  did not exist at the time of the
> Hartford convention.

Actually the party was founded as Republican Party and was so known at
the time of the Hartford Convention.  It did not become known as the
Democratic-Republican Party until the political coming of Andrew
Jackson.
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 14:51 GMT
> > > Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the
> > > Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Democratic-Republican Party until the political coming of Andrew
> Jackson.

To refer to it as "the Republican Party" in a "civil war" newsgroup is
disingenious.  The Republican Party of Lincoln that is associated
(rightly) with the war was founded much later, when the party of
Jefferson and Jackson was called the Democratic party.
scribe7716 - 02 Oct 2006 17:24 GMT
> > > > Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the
> > > > Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> (rightly) with the war was founded much later, when the party of
> Jefferson and Jackson was called the Democratic party.

And the party making much over the supposed secession sentiments at the
Hartford Convention was the Republican Party.  Surely participation in
a Civil War newsgroup does not mandate an ignorance of prior history.
Gary Charbonneau - 26 Sep 2006 01:44 GMT
> @#$%%^&  :>(
>
> Yep. Federalists. Federalists. Federalist.
>
> Fortunately my typo does not change the result: secession  was not
> looked upon very kindly by Americans whether in 1794, 1814 or 1850.

Bob: The error wasn't yours, but Ray O'Hara's.
cncfixxer - 28 Sep 2006 01:42 GMT
> Common on these chat groups is the claim that not only was secession
> legal, but that this fact was so obvious that no one really disputed it
[quoted text clipped - 181 lines]
>
> Mahatma Gandhi, August 26, 1905

I'm new at this so please forgive my ignorance ... I do look at things
objectively and keep an open mind.

What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events
that happened 145 years ago?

Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most
northern working class people could care less about slavery... life was hard
and few had time for events another world away ( travel to the south by
horse took many days, few people had traveled more then 100 miles from
home ).
I honestly believe that a double standard existed regarding the southern
states.   The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission
instead of due process.    If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the
plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men .  Many southerners knew
the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way.

http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/001128.shtml
The American people think they live under their Constitution, because the
U.S. Government tells them so. Of course that same government also tells
them what the Constitution means, and the meaning keeps changing, and with
every new meaning the government increases its own power.
And few people see the logical absurdity of letting a government decide the
meaning of the very document that is supposed to limit that government's
powers. Could anything be more irrational? If the federal government can
change the Constitution, which was allegedly "unalterable by the
government," why bother having a written constitution at all?
Gary Charbonneau - 28 Sep 2006 02:45 GMT
> What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events
> that happened 145 years ago?

Well, no amendment has been added to the Constitution since the Civil
War that would change the constitutionality of secession.  Therefore,
if secession was constitutional then, it would be constitutional now.
Any state today could legally, at any time and for any reason, declare
itself a foreign country.  If the Constitution actually permits that,
then my personal opinion is that it's broke and needs fixin'.  On the
other hand, if you're the type of person who takes the opposite
position, that a state ought to be able to declare itself a foreign
country at any time and for any reason, and the Constitution doesn't
allow that, then you would say that the Constitution is broke and needs
fixin'.

>  Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most
> northern working class people could care less about slavery... life was hard
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men .  Many southerners knew
> the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way.

If you take the time to read the official statements issued by several
of the states that seceded, you'll find that one of their major beef
wasn't with the federal government at all, but with people of the free
states who supposedly weren't knuckling under to the federal government
in the matter of fugitive slaves.  The Fugitive Slave Law of 1850 said
that the federal government had the power to take someone accused of
being a fugitive slave from a free state and send him to permanent
bondage in a slave state.  Even a casual reading of the Constitution
would suggest that there's something a bit fishy about the notion that
such a power had been delegated to the federal government -- and that
the federal government could, in the process, deny the accused fugitive
the right to a jury trial and the privilege of the writ of habeas
corpus, as the Constitution appears to guarantee.

> http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/001128.shtml
> The American people think they live under their Constitution, because the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> change the Constitution, which was allegedly "unalterable by the
>  government," why bother having a written constitution at all?

I hear ya, brother.  If you look, for example, at the Supreme Court's
DRED SCOTT decision of 1857, it's hard to believe that it was anything
other than a blatant attempt by the Court to subvert the Constitution
in order to assert a so-called "right" of slaveholders to bring their
slaves into any U.S. territory they pleased.  On the other hand, what's
the alternative? Leave it up to each state to decide which federal
statutes are constitutional?  If you did that, you'd quickly wind up
with a situation in which the very same statute (the Fugitive Slave
Law, for example) was constitutional in South Carolina but not
constitutional in Massachusetts.  And why should either South Carolina
or Massachusetts have had the power to decide what federal laws were
constitutional in the territory of Kansas?
Mike Stone - 02 Oct 2006 14:34 GMT
"Gary Charbonneau" <charbonn@indiana.edu> wrote in
message
news:1159406476.385450.291720@m7g2000cwm.googlegro
ups.com...
> If you take the time to read the official statements issued by several
> of the states that seceded, you'll find that one of their major beef
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> would suggest that there's something a bit fishy about the notion that
> such a power had been delegated to the federal government --

Nothing fishy at all. The Constitution was quite
_specific_ on that. See Article IV, Sec 2, 2nd
Para -

"No Person held to Service or Labor in one state,
under the Laws thereof, escaping into another,
shall, in Consequence of any  Law or Regulation
therein, be discharged from such Service or Labor,
but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to
whom such Service of Labor may be due."

Lincoln, in his first inaugural address,
emphasised that when he swore to "preserve protect
and defend the Constitution of the United States",
he was swearing to uphold that clause just as much
as any other.

>and that
> the federal government could, in the process, deny the accused fugitive
> the right to a jury trial and the privilege of the writ of habeas
> corpus, as the Constitution appears to guarantee.

That indeed is more questionable. Lincoln was on
record as supporting an effective Fugitive Slave
Law, but only if it were no more likely to consign
a [legally] free man to servitude "than our
ordinary criminal laws are to hang an innocent
one". He and others were extremely doubtful
whether the 1850 Act met that last criterion.

--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England

"It is so stupid of modern civilisation to have
given up believing in the devil, when he is its
only explanation"

Ronald Knox
Gregory E. Garland - 28 Sep 2006 11:54 GMT
> I'm new at this so please forgive my ignorance ... I do look at things
> objectively and keep an open mind.
>
> What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events
> that happened 145 years ago?

Standing up to people with obtuse and usually unpleasant modern political
agendas who blatantly lie about my country's history to justify those
agendas seems reason enough. Not that any of those people want to
turn the clock back to the 1850's, some just want to turn it back to the
1950's when the negroes knew their place (and if they objected... well
killing an uppity black wasn't really murder).

> Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most
> northern working class people could care less about slavery

Pick one. Either abolitionist hysteria was the norm, or the 99% of the
people in the north who were working class didn't care. Or if you like,
provoking hysteria about 'black republicans' and other 'hysterical
abolitionists' was indeed the favorite tactic of the southern fire-eaters
who pushed through secession. So it may have been prevalent in the
south, but not in the north.
Cash - 28 Sep 2006 19:21 GMT
> What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events
> that happened 145 years ago?
-----------------------------
It's called "history."

>  Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most
> northern working class people could care less about slavery.
----------------------------
Which one is it?

And why do you refer to abolitionist "hysteria?"

Were the abolitionists right in saying slavery was immoral?  Were they
right in saying it should be done away with?

> I honestly believe that a double standard existed regarding the southern
> states.   The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission
> instead of due process.
---------------------
It was the confederacy who started the war, not "the North."

   If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
> their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the
> plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men .  Many southerners knew
> the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way.
------------------------
How is it that they didn't complain about any actions of the Federal
government but instead complained that other states weren't knuckling
under to the Federal government by returning fugitive slaves?

Lincoln promised that he wouldn't touch slavery where it existed but
instead he would prevent it from expanding into territories.   So who
was trying to use muscle to force who into submission?

> http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/001128.shtml
-------------------------

If you're looking for accurate history, Sobran is one of the least
likely places to find it.

[modern politics snipped]

Regards,
Cash
S Witmer - 29 Sep 2006 03:22 GMT
<snip>

> I'm new at this so please forgive my ignorance ... I do look at things
> objectively and keep an open mind.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>  Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most
> northern working class people could care less about slavery...

Oh, I wouldn't say that.  There were active Underground Railroad
routes in pretty much every state of the north.  And religious groups
such as the Quakers and Congregationalists were anti-slavery in their
outlook.  John Brown & his "troops" found safe havens in parts of
the north.

life was hard
> and few had time for events another world away ( travel to the south by
> horse took many days, few people had traveled more then 100 miles from
> home ).

But it was on their minds because it was affecting their country.  News
of "Bleeding Kansas" and the LeCompton fiasco, arguments over
Personal Liberty Laws, the Wilmot Proviso, etc, permeated political
discussion and newspapers of their day.  The Caning of Sumner in
Congress, while many miles away, invoked a strong emotional response
just as much then as a similar incident would today.

And you'd be surprised at how well travelled some of the population
was, by the way (though admittedly there were, as you say, plenty who
had never travelled what we would consider "far from home"). In states
like Iowa, Nebraska, and Minnesota, for example, the vast majority
(especially of the adult population) were not born in those states
because they had migrated from out east for from overseas.  And some of
the population had gone to California during the gold rush and
returned, some with more cash than they left with if they were lucky.
Still others had served during the Mexican-American War.

> I honestly believe that a double standard existed regarding the southern
> states.   The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission
> instead of due process.

Which due process would this be?  Are you suggesting that after federal
troops had been fired upon with artillery firing heated shot the proper
course of action is a lawsuit?  You're new here, but I've pointed
out many times that some of the forts seized were seized prior to the
secession of the states they were located in.  If an armed seizure of a
federal arsenal or fort doesn't qualify as rebellion I am at a loss
as to what would.

If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
> their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the
> plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men .

Er...exactly how was anyone to predict the cost of the rebellion in
advance, especially when most of the population on BOTH sides thought
the whole war would last just a few months and involve just a few
setpiece battles, rather than four years of grinding campaigns on a
scale never seen before in western history?  Also, are you aware that
Lincoln floated the proposal of compensated emancipation to
representatives of the Border States well after the war was underway
and it was flatly rejected?

Many southerners knew
> the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way.

Well, if you're talking about forcing the pro-slavery Lecompton
constitution down the throats of Kansas settlers, then you may have a
point.  And the forcing of a gag rule on Congress in the late 1830's
banning the discussion of anti-slavery petitions. But other than that,
can you elaborate on exactly how they knew this?

Are you aware the in big chunks of the south, it was against the law to
publicly speak in favor of abolition of slavery (not to mention
risking, at the least, a good beating and death threats), and it was a
criminal offense to even possess or send literature regarding such
through the mail?  So let's not pretend that the southerners were not
adverse to a little tyranny, provided it was *their* tyranny.

As of a week or two prior to the firing on Ft. Sumter, Lincoln had not
accepted so much as a company of milita for federal service, despite
many offers.  The standing army numbered just 16,000, most of which
were stationed in scattered detachments on the western frontier.  In
comparison, in South Carolina and Florida alone there were roughly the
same number of troops with more being mustered in daily.  This, to
defend against two forts lightly garrisoned by federal troops (Ft.
Sumter, for example, had less than 80 soldiers within its walls, plus a
handful of civilian contractors).  So exactly what tyranny was the
south defending against in April 1861, apart from the tyranny of the
northern population having the temerity to dare to elect a president
they didn't particularly like?

<snip>

Oh, by the way - regarding that Sobran article, he might want learn
some history himself before bemoaning American's lack of familiarity
with it.  He fires off a diatribe against paper money as something
tyrants need, but fails to understand the the *Continental Congress*
issued paper money during the Revolution!  And of course, we *all* know
what tyrants people like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John and
Samuel Adams, John Jay, and all *that* crowd were, don't we...

The moral of the story - don't depend on Sobran for the facts.
cncfixxer - 30 Sep 2006 12:53 GMT
WOW!!
My first post and it seems like I've been able to get both sides angry.
Commenting my point of view is akin to speaking about abortion ,,,, no mater
what you say about it millions of people will hate you.

I guess I'm not ready for prime time .  I will however continue to read and
try to get more insight into a facinating subject.
S Witmer - 30 Sep 2006 23:40 GMT
> WOW!!
> My first post and it seems like I've been able to get both sides angry.

Oh, I wouldn't say that.  Just giving you food for thought.

> Commenting my point of view is akin to speaking about abortion ,,,, no mater
> what you say about it millions of people will hate you.

There are definitely passions about the Civil War, even nearly 150
years later, for sure.

> I guess I'm not ready for prime time .  I will however continue to read and
> try to get more insight into a facinating subject.

Oh, post away.  At least here on the moderated group you won't get
anywhere near the blasting you might get on the unmoderated group if
you post something someone really doesn't like.  We have to try to be
nice here.  :-)
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 30 Sep 2006 23:46 GMT
No, not angry. Just disagreeing.

And you *are* ready for prime time. Ask questions -- otherwise you will
not have the opportunity to discover what really happened.

Bob
> WOW!!
> My first post and it seems like I've been able to get both sides angry.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I guess I'm not ready for prime time .  I will however continue to read and
> try to get more insight into a facinating subject.
Mike Stone - 02 Oct 2006 14:34 GMT
>   The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission
> instead of due process.

Er, _when_ did they do so? If you check what
happened on April 12, 1861 you will see that it
was the South, not the North, which first ppealed
to military force. As for "due process", if anyone
in the South claimed that the government was
exceeding its powers, wasn't it for _them_ to go
to court? Afaik they never tried to.

>If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
> their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the
> plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men
Mike Stone - 02 Oct 2006 16:25 GMT
> If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
> their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the
> plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men .  Many southerners knew
> the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way.

The North, prior to the outbreak of war, had
never made any demands on the South in regard to
its slaves, except that they should not be taken
into the Territories - the latter an arrangement
which Thomas Jefferson had endorsed in the
Northwest Ordinance as far back as 1787, the
Monroe administration irt most of the Louisiana
Purchase in 1820, and President Polk irt Oregon in
1846. Were they abolitionists or anti-Southern?

As late as 1861, after the Lower South had already
withdrawn, the remaining Senators and
Representatives, now of course predominantly
northern, mustered a two-thirds vote of both
Houses in favour of an Amendment prohibiting the
US gov't from interfering with slavery in those
states which retained it.  The affirmative votes
included nearly half the Republican membership in
each House. This article was in process of being
ratified when the Secessionists rendered it moot
by initiating war.

As for "tyranny" what on earth is that supposed to
mean? Depending on the legality or otherwise of
secession, the Federal gov't in 1861-5 was either
suppressing an insurrection or else prosecuting
war against a foreign country which had arttacked
the United States. There would seem to be nothing
particularly tyrannnical about either action.

--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England

"It is so stupid of modern civilisation to have
given up believing in the devil, when he is its
only explanation"

Ronald Knox
Alfred Montestruc - 29 Sep 2006 03:22 GMT
> Common on these chat groups is the claim that not only was secession
> legal, but that this fact was so obvious that no one really disputed it
> in 1860-61 nor later.

Since you quote me a lot I take it you are aiming this at me.

I never said that people did not dispute it.  I am well aware that they
did, I just don't think that they were being intellectually honest.
They were being at least as much a bunch of hypocrites as slave owners
who talked about "give me liberty or give me death".

>And those who opposed secession were close to
> being criminal in their opposition.

When you get ~ 620,000 people killed in the process when you can avoid
the bloodbath by just letting the other side alone, , , yeah seems
pretty criminal to me.

> A couple of recent quotes on this site illustrate the claim:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> The claim is false on two points:

You assert those claims to be false.

> First those making it in 1860-61 and as well as in Y2K ignore the fact
> that any arguments in favor of secession were and are instantly
> countered with equally valid and reasoned arguments against the
> proposition.

First off if they were "equally valid" then clearly the solution that
leaves less folks dead should be prefered by all, and someone who wants
to pursue an "equally valid" solution that results in the deaths of
hundreds of thousands of people, and the other does not result in an
immediate war, then that act is criminal.

> While the pro-secessionists make good points, they seem to
> miss the fact that the pro-unionists also make good points.

Depends on what you mean by good.

> Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
> than there were those who believed it to be legal.

Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
northern side.  It is a well know and well documented fact that many
politicians, newspaper editors, and other public figures that spoke out
against the war and against the legality of the government's actions
were thrown in prison, and newspapers that printed anything of the kind
stopped that or were closed.

This is along the lines of quoting Soviet public opinion on the virtues
of communism in the 1930s when having any but the "correct" opinioin
can get you in prison or worse.  I boggle every time I hear you or
anyone raise this issue when you know of numerous example of northern
public officials jailed and otherwise mistreated for expression of an
opinion that the Republican party did not approve of.

On the southern side, by mid war the typical southerner could give a
tinker's damn about the legality of secession by the laws of the USA,
as they were in a war of national survival of the CSA vs. USA, and
either it was legal or not, but irrelivent by that point in time from
their perspective.

>This is not to deny
> that secession had - and has -its arguments. Rather it is to point
> out that the Unionists also had their good points.

Aside from the circular arguments about the supremacy clause, and that
slavery was a bad thing, what?

> Given that neither side had a monopoly on the legality/illegality of
> secession, we can turn to the second point:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> to be insurrectionists, and raising a military force to put down the
> insurrection.

True but as you say this was not a group of state governments acting
together and not firing a shot for months while repeatedly asking the
federal government to negociate a seperation peacefully before opening
fire when they would not leave, and had been in deliberate violation of
state law for months.

In any case I would say that this rebellion (whiskey)  was the fault of
the government more than of the rebels, they would not take the tax in
kind and the farmers in western Pensylvainia did not have money, which
was one of the reasons they made whiskey for sale in the first place.
If the government made the reasonable allowance of taking taxes in
kind, then this would never have gotten very far.

> The military force was led, BTW, by a Revolutionary war general named
> Light Horse Harry Lee. Hmm. I am sure, with that sort of heritage, any
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> fingers of one's hands. However, Jefferson's quick action prevented
> Burr from attempting any secession.

If he had any intention to do so in the first place which has never
been proven.

> Andrew Jackson faced a more overt effort at secession with South
> Carolina and we know what he thought of the idea. It is no accident
> that in 1860-61, the Jacksonians were adamant that secession was not
> permissible Taney may not have liked Lincoln but he upheld the
> government in the Prize Cases. Sam Houston was booted out as Texas
> governor because he opposed his state's secession.

Not exactly true.  He was opposed to secession as IIRC bad policy, but
bowed to it after the referendum for secession passed by a landslide.
He opposed alignment of Texas with the CSA, which was not subject to a
referendum and that was what got him kicked out of office.

As in Texas goes it alone rather than with the CSA.

http://www.carpenoctem.tv/military/houston.html

I think that arguably this was more plausible especially if in addition
to the protecting slavery noise in the declaration, they had included
that the US Federal government was not able to keep civil order (which
at the time it could not), and that Texas was reverting to her
independent status, and would remain neutral as long as her borders
were respected.

The fact that she had been independent and was seceeding in part as a
result of the US Federal government's inability to function as it had
implicitly promised to do in the treaty of annexation (keeping order)
would give Texas much more of a leg to stand on in recognition of other
powers.

>Andrew Johnson was
> the only senator from a Confederate state to continue his duties in
> Washington.

Kind of shows that secession was popular in the south. If it were not
as some claim, you would see more US federal officers in the north as
refugees.

> In 1840, during the Gag Rule fight over anti-slavery petitions in the
> House of Representatives, John Quincy Adams, the member from Braintree,
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> his country, through their Representatives, in the eyes of the whole
> world.

I agree that the north has no monopoly on hypocrites.

> "Resolved, further, That the aforesaid JOHN Q. ADAMS, for this
> in¬sult, the first of the kind ever offered to the Government, and for
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> After a long debate, where the Old Man Eloquent defended himself and
> made fools of the Southern members, the measure was tabled.

;-) he made fools of them but you post no link to the debate?

> In the ante-bellum world the most intrusive Federal law, indeed, except
> for postmasters, the only Federal contact most Americans had, was the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> American History, a distinction for which there are a lot of
> competition!

How can you prove it is the worst?

--------------snip
Stephen Graham - 29 Sep 2006 21:40 GMT
> Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
> northern side.

How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan?
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 14:51 GMT
> > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
> > northern side.
>
> How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan?

I do not know who Mr. Black is.

>From my perspective Mr. Buchanan's position was quite defendable.
While he argued (incorrectly IMHO) that secession was illegal, he also
argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal
authority to stop them.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jb15.html

So as I see it he is more on my side than yours or the Lincoln
administration's.
S Witmer - 02 Oct 2006 16:31 GMT
> > > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> > > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >From my perspective Mr. Buchanan's position was quite defendable.
> While he argued (incorrectly IMHO) that secession was illegal,

<boggle>

So now your opinion is more valid than *two* presidents (three if we
include Andy Jackson) and the Supreme Court (on at least two occasions,
no less - The Prize Cases where both majority and dissenting opinion
described events in terms of rebellion and insurrection, NOT a war
between two nations; and Texas v White)?

he also
> argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal
> authority to stop them.

I've always thought that was incredibly wishy-washy of Buchanan.  If it
was illegal, his duty as the Chief Executive was to see that the law
was upheld.

> http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jb15.html
>
> So as I see it he is more on my side than yours or the Lincoln
> administration's.

And yet he didn't evacuate Sumter and even sent the Star the West
expedition.
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 23:06 GMT
> > > > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> > > > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> <boggle>

Boggle yourself. this is not a monarchy, or a society of nobles and
commoners.  My opinion is just as good as that of any president in a
legal matter.  Only where it is a judge with jurisdiction, do we have
to accept his ruling, and we can still argue that the ruling is wrong.

> So now your opinion is more valid than *two* presidents (three if we
> include Andy Jackson) and the Supreme Court (on at least two occasions,
> no less

Not before the war, and not without either the threat of arrest and
prison, or where the war had already settled things (verdict of the
battlefield).   Taney by his own statments feared the president would
order him arrested and imprisoned, and given the general situation it
was not an unreasonable fear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taney_Arrest_Warrant

The problem with such threats, implicit or explicit is that we can now
never truly know if those decisions were influnced by them, and that
makes respect for the law much harder.

> - The Prize Cases where both majority and dissenting opinion
> described events in terms of rebellion and insurrection, NOT a war
> between two nations; and Texas v White)?

Which was IIRC in the late 1860s, while the court had been packed with
Radical Republicans, and where threats to hang confederate government
officials for treason were very much in the wind, and you expect us to
in that environment to accept such a ruling as being unbiased by either
fear or Republican partisanship?

Please spare me.

> he also
> > argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal
> > authority to stop them.
>
> I've always thought that was incredibly wishy-washy of Buchanan.  If it
> was illegal,

Illegal and unconstitutional are not the same thing.  Be careful of
your terms.  If it was never made illegal by congress, then he had no
authority to enforce laws that did not exist, and it was too late
(given the ex post facto clause) to write new ones to cover the hole.

Of course from my perspective Lincoln did not care for legalities.

> his duty as the Chief Executive was to see that the law
> was upheld.

Right.  And he said he had no legal leg to stand on to do what you
think right.

> > http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jb15.html
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> And yet he didn't evacuate Sumter and even sent the Star the West
> expedition.

Yes I agree it would have been better for the nation if he had removed
the object of friction from secession.   If Lincoln had been denyied
the chance to play his little game, and was presented with an
accomplished fact, the war might never have been fought.
S Witmer - 03 Oct 2006 01:42 GMT
> > > > > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> > > > > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> commoners.  My opinion is just as good as that of any president in a
> legal matter.

But *3* of them?  Two of whom were lawyers (Lincoln and Buchanan)?  And
Buchanan's Attorney General? And an entire sitting Supreme Court, on
two separate occasions?

There is opinion and then there is expert opinion.  A medical opinion
from a doctor may just be an opinion but that doesn't mean I'm going to
give your medical advice the same weight as my GP.  And if I have
medical opinion from nine or ten doctors who all tell me the same
thing, I'm pretty sure your opinion is going to carry very little
weight.  Sooner or later the weight of a number of what could be
considered authoritative opinions is going to override your
non-authoritative opinion.  Yes, you can still hold that opinion just
as much as some might cling to the opinion that the earth is flat, but
don't expect it to hold much water.

Only where it is a judge with jurisdiction, do we have
> to accept his ruling, and we can still argue that the ruling is wrong.

Argue away.  You have two Supreme Court decisions that disagree with
you.  Even Roger Taney doesn't agree with you.

> > So now your opinion is more valid than *two* presidents (three if we
> > include Andy Jackson) and the Supreme Court (on at least two occasions,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taney_Arrest_Warrant

We've been over this, Al.  The "Lincoln threatened to arrest Taney"
story is pretty much discredited.  And the fact remains that Taney
*chose*, yes *chose*, to remained loyal to the Union and kept his
Supreme Court seat when he could have verily easily headed south with
the other rebels.

> The problem with such threats, implicit or explicit is that we can now
> never truly know if those decisions were influnced by them, and that
> makes respect for the law much harder.

I've never heard Roger Taney described as spineless.

> > - The Prize Cases where both majority and dissenting opinion
> > described events in terms of rebellion and insurrection, NOT a war
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> in that environment to accept such a ruling as being unbiased by either
> fear or Republican partisanship?

The Prize Cases were IIRC in 1862.  And the fact remains that the
language of both majority and dissenting opinions described what was
happening as a rebellion.  The dissenting opinion could have easily
tap-danced around that and avoided such language without incurring
Republican wrath, but they did not.  And one wonders, if they were all
so terrified, why was the decision not unanimous?  If Taney and his
dissenting compatriots were shaking in their boots, one wonders why
they *dared* to dissent?

> Please spare me.

Only if you spare me your theories that Roger Taney was a coward, but
still openly dissented in the Prize Cases.

> > he also
> > > argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> the chance to play his little game, and was presented with an
> accomplished fact, the war might never have been fought.
scribe7716 - 03 Oct 2006 17:45 GMT
> Boggle yourself. this is not a monarchy, or a society of nobles and
> commoners.  My opinion is just as good as that of any president in a
> legal matter.

No,  while you have as much right to an opinion as anyone else that
does not mean that your opinion is just as good as that of anyon else.
Stephen Graham - 02 Oct 2006 18:41 GMT
>>> Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
>>> the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
>>> northern side.
>> How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan?
>
> I do not know who Mr. Black is.

Mr Black was Attorney General of the United States for most of the
Buchanan administration and Secretary of State for the final months,
beginning on 17 December 1860. He drafted the opinion regarding
secession that Buchanan relied upon.

Neither Mr Black or Mr Buchanan was influenced by "heavy handed control
of the media".

>>From my perspective Mr. Buchanan's position was quite defendable.
> While he argued (incorrectly IMHO) that secession was illegal, he also
> argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal
> authority to stop them.

Specifically, Mr Buchanan and Mr Black felt that the Federal Government
could not use force to compel the states to rescind their ordinances of
secession. They were wrong.

The government could, however, use force to defend federal property,
including Ft Sumter and Pickens, as well as to defend against attack by
external forces.

One should remember that Mr Buchanan was hoping to stall for as long as
possible so that Mr Lincoln would have to deal with the problem.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 02 Oct 2006 23:06 GMT
No, no, no. You are obviously wrong. The evil Republican press had
brainwashed Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Black even before  Lincoln took
office. There is no other answer why they, as well as the hundreds of
thousands of Northern Democrats answered the Call on April 15. :>)

Bob

Alfred Montestruc wrote:
> Stephen Graham wrote:
>> Alfred Montestruc wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan?
> I do not know who Mr. Black is.
Mr Black was Attorney General of the United States for most of the
Buchanan administration and Secretary of State for the final months,
beginning on 17 December 1860. He drafted the opinion regarding
secession that Buchanan relied upon.
Neither Mr Black or Mr Buchanan was influenced by "heavy handed control

of the media".
Alfred Montestruc - 03 Oct 2006 01:01 GMT
> No, no, no. You are obviously wrong. The evil Republican press had
> brainwashed Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Black even before  Lincoln took
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> of the media".

And did not agree with the Republicans as to the legality of forcing
people to stay in the union.  Thank you for the evidence supporting my
point.
Stephen Graham - 03 Oct 2006 11:32 GMT
> And did not agree with the Republicans as to the legality of forcing
> people to stay in the union.  Thank you for the evidence supporting my
> point.

As I noted, Mr Black and Mr Buchanan were wrong. Specifically, they
intentionally took a stance that absolved them from acting, holding to
an interpretation of the Militia Act of 1795 not consonant with the
intent or logic.

You should note, however, that they did firmly believe in the Federal
power to hold Ft Sumter and Ft Pickens in the face of opposition. They
were no more willing to surrender the forts than Lincoln was. So the
proximate cause of the Civil War would still have occurred.
jfe@ams.org - 29 Sep 2006 21:40 GMT
> > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> were thrown in prison, and newspapers that printed anything of the kind
> stopped that or were closed.

This kind of thing is often asserted, but is nonetheless not true.
There
was no "heavy handed control of media" by the Republicans.  Some
editors
and papers were sanctioned, but many more were not.  The opposition
press was very active and vocal throughout the war.

JFE
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 29 Sep 2006 23:31 GMT
And even if the statement were true -- which it is not -- the heavy
handed Black Republicans could hardly be said to control the press in
April, 1861.

There was never anything in the Free Sates to come close to the
censorship imposed on the slave state press preventing the latter from
reporting any story which might be interpreted as anti-slavery.

Take care,

Bob

Judy and Bob Huddleston
10643 Sperry Street
Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
huddleston.r@comcast.net

"The firing on that fort will inaugurate a civil war greater than any
the world yet seen and I do not feel competent to advise you. Mr.
President, at this time it is suicide, murder, and will lose us every
friend at the North. You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest which
extends from mountain to ocean, and legions now quiet will swarm out
and sting us to death. It is unnecessary; it puts us in the wrong; it
is fatal."
Robert Toombs, April 11, 1861
SNIP
> > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> JFE
Alfred Montestruc - 30 Sep 2006 04:24 GMT
> > > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> > > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> This kind of thing is often asserted, but is nonetheless not true.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/adams3.html

----quote------
Charles W. Smith, a biographer of Taney (1973), gives this account of
the scope of the arrests of civilians:

Without the sanction of law the federal government arrested men by the
thousands and confined them in military prisons. The number of such
executive arrests was certainly over 13,000, and it has been estimated
to have been as high as 38,000 (Columbia Law Review, XXI, 527-28,
1921).
--------end quote------

If you are going to poo-poo the article for being on Lew Rockwell, note
the Columbia Law Review reference.

Even 13,000 civilians arrested and detained in military prisons w/o
trial, let alone 38,000 for months or years for expression of opinion
disliked by the Republican party is VERY intimidating.  Your
assertation to the contrary seems quite absurd to me.

> There
> was no "heavy handed control of media" by the Republicans.  Some
> editors
> and papers were sanctioned,

Is that what being locked up in a military prison without trial or any
vague form of legal process?

I was under the impression that sanctions were more along the lines of
a boycott.

>but many more were not.

Of course, those who did not express what the Republicans did not want
said.

> The opposition
> press was very active and vocal throughout the war.

Sure, as long as they stayed away from issues the Republicans wanted
them to.
ray o'hara - 30 Sep 2006 23:40 GMT
> > > > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> > > > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> Sure, as long as they stayed away from issues the Republicans wanted
> them to.

using idealogues like adams, the kennedy brothers or sobran is like using
matt drudge for news. their facts range from incorrect to made up.
adams is not a credible source
Alfred Montestruc - 01 Oct 2006 13:34 GMT
> > > > > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> > > > > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
>  using idealogues like adams,

How about Smith?

http://www.law.upenn.edu/about/history/medallions/taney/index.html
---------quote
Roger B. Taney, Jacksonian Jurist, by Charles W. Smith, Jr., University
of North Carolina Press, 1936.
-----------------end quote

Clearly the soruce he quotes exists, and it is creditable that the
source would have something to say on the subject.

http://www.amazon.com/Roger-B-Taney-Jacksonian-Jurist/dp/0306705559

It is also clear that the work is cited a lot in serious academic works
see the above site that indicates it is cited by 23 different books
including a history of the US Supreme Court.

This is the source Adams claims, and he states Smith was quoting the
Columbia law Review.  I should hope you are not going to accuse the
Columbia Law Review of being not credible.

>the kennedy brothers

So what is wrong with their work in terms of citings? A few mistakes do
not make them dishonest.  It takes consistent use of non-existent
sources, or deliberate false quotes of soruces.

> or sobran is like using
> matt drudge for news. their facts range from incorrect to made up.

Uh huh.

When people on this newsgroup claimed words to the effect that blacks
never fought on the southern side, I used the Kennedy book "The South
Was Right!"  To find numerous first person accounts from various
creditble sources that this was false, which included US Army sources,
British Military observers, and accounts of Confederate officers. Some
were first hand accounts of black confederate veterans, backed up by
other (white) veterans of the same unit.  It would be difficult or
impossibe to put a percentage on the number of fighting men, nor do I
claim they were on "official" CS Army muster lists as fighting men,
more troops fought as state milita anyway.  I only claim that numerous
contemporary creditable sources state that some existed, and specific
examples are given, and that the Kennedy Brothers book gave good
references to find them.

One example is that of British observer Fremantle's account of an armed
slave (no doubt on the unit muster list as a body servant) escorting
Union POWs to the rear areas alone at Gettiesburg, unsupervised by any
white confederates, and when questioned by a general as to what he was
doing, said that he was escorting prisoners to the rear and made
disparaging remarks about the yankees.

http://mainemilitia.com/node/548

---------quote--------
"A negro dressed in full yankee uniform, with a rifle at full cock,
leading along a barefooted white man, with whom he evidently changed
clothes. General Longstreeted stopped the pair, and asked the black man
what it meant. The negro replied, "The two soldiers in charge of this
here yank have got drunk, so for fear he should escape I have took care
of him and brought him through that little town." The cosequential
manner of the negro, and the supreme contempt witch which he spoke to
his prisoner, were most amusing. This little episode of a southern
black leading a white yankee soldier through a Northern village, alone
and of his own accord, would not have been gratiying to an
abolistionist.Nor would the sympathizers both in England and in the
North feel encouraged if they could hear the language of detestation
and contempt with which the numerous negroes with the Southern armies
speak of their so called liberators."
------------end quote

> adams is not a credible source

Yeah right.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 01 Oct 2006 17:30 GMT
Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_:

Like most angry books, this one contains a few facts onto which the
authors pile false and misleading statements, invalid assumptions, weak
logic, poor history and selected quotations in order to arrive at their
predetermined conclusions.

......
"A government that does not rule with the consent of the governed fails
the test of legitimacy and therefore has no legal right to rule and
shall be regarded as a tyranny." Such a government "has by its own
actions renounced any claim to a legal right to govern." Few would
quarrel with these comments.

The Kennedys then apply these observations to the hated Federal
government. The criteria, however, cut both ways. They can more
accurately be applied to ante-bellum South Carolina and Mississippi,
where more than one-half of the population was - under state tyranny
- enslaved. Folks in western Virginia in the early 1860s used the
same arguments against the rest of the Old Dominion and the
Confederacy.

Certain things are clearly true and need to be said. Many white
Northerners were (and are) racists; many were (and are) hypocrites.
Most Federal soldiers did not bathe often enough to suit modern
olfactory nerves. Lots of Northerners spoke (and speak) with an accent
that grates painfully upon the ears.

......
None of these truths, however, alters that fact that on both of the two
big issues of the mid-19th century the South was basically wrong and
the North was basically right. Slavery was certainly legal and
secession arguably so, but both were so wrong and so stupid that there
are no sound grounds on which either can be defended.

The time has come for us white Southerners to admit that our
Confederate ancestors -- most whom were brave, admirable, honorable
people devoted to their homes, families and cause - were in the wrong.

_The South Was Right!_ is an exercise in unproductive bitterness. It
does not further our understanding of antebellum America or the Civil
War. It does give an insight into the mind-set of some late
20th-century Americans. It will have great appeal to those whose
retirement funds are invested Confederate government securities. White
Southerners who like to wallow in self-pity will also it edifying.

Richard McMurry

Reprinted from _The Civil War News_, October 1994, p. 33

SNIP
> >the kennedy brothers
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> examples are given, and that the Kennedy Brothers book gave good
> references to find them.

SNIP of example

> > adams is not a credible source
>
> Yeah right.
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 00:23 GMT
> Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_:
>
> Like most angry books, this one contains a few facts onto which the
> authors pile false and misleading statements,

A few facts?  How about those quoted from "The Conduct of Federal
Troops in Louisiana" David C. Edmonds ed., The Acadiana Press;
Lafayette Louisiana 1988, which is reprinted from a report made by the
contemporary governor of the state documenting the atrocities of
Federal Troops on citizens of Louisiana?

Or how about the execution of 10 hostages by Federal Troops in Missouri
(over the dissapperance of a Federal informant, aka spy.) where Mr.
Lincoln soon after this mass murder which was reported with horror in
Britain and other places around the world, promoted the officer
(General McNeil) to Bigadier General? (Confederate Veteran, vol XXXVI,
No 1 Jan-Feb 1988 page 27)

Oh, by the way, spys were killed by both sides but I do not recall the
confederate side killing hostages in exchange for the execution of a
spy, let alone the dissapperence of one.  Lincoln promoted this
monster, where this execution was recent public knowledge, that would
have rated a hanging if he were a German General after WWII as did many
German officers for mistreatment of civilians.

Dare we ask what does this make Lincoln?

Since you would no doubt claim this a fabrication here is a 100%
independent source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McNeil

----------------quote-----------------
The Palmyra Massacre
His subsequent campaign in Monroe County, Missouri, was also regarded
by some as excessively brutal and indiscriminate. He himself said that
"where a Union man could not live in peace, a secessionist should
not." He concluded his campaign on September 14, taking Palmyra after
its abandonment by Porter, and avenging the abduction and presumptive
murder of Union loyalist (and alleged informer) Andrew Allsman by
executing ten Confederate prisoners in what came to be known as the
"Palmyra Massacre." McNeil was criticized even by Union sympathizers
for the act, and excoriated in the American and European press.
-------end quote---------------

Or the use of Confederate POWs as human shields?  (Confederate Veteran,
vol XXXIV, No 1 Jan-Feb 1986 page 7)

Of course I am sure you will claim confederate veteran is biased as a
source, so how about the facts cited from "Official Records: War of the
Rebellion" which documents numeous rapes and many other atrocities
against southern civilians black and white by UNION troops?  Are you
going to claim the US government lied about the behavior of it's own
troops?  Are these all made up citations?  I see several pages of
citations to those federal documents in "The South Was Right!".

These are "a few facts"?  That book has 28 pages of end notes citing
the specific refernces to these "few facts" where each page has about
22 specific citations or approximatly 600 specific citations.  That is
not counting the seperate bibliography.

Few facts indeed.
HankC - 02 Oct 2006 16:31 GMT
> > Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> (General McNeil) to Bigadier General? (Confederate Veteran, vol XXXVI,
> No 1 Jan-Feb 1988 page 27)

It should be noted that McNeill commanded troops of the Missouri State
Militia and not of the United States...

HankC
Alfred Montestruc - 04 Oct 2006 09:35 GMT
> > > Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> It should be noted that McNeill commanded troops of the Missouri State
> Militia and not of the United States...

At that time, yes.  IIRC he was given command of other units, after
Lincoln approved his promotion.  So what?
Alfred Montestruc - 05 Oct 2006 19:42 GMT
> Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_:
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> secession arguably so, but both were so wrong and so stupid that there
> are no sound grounds on which either can be defended.

This is absurd.

While in the end slavery is wrong, asserting the people who by accident
of history grew up in a society where slave owning was legal and the
primary means of economic and social advancement stupid, is itself
stupid.

Pose a plausible means of the slave owners (or a fraction of them)
ending slavery that does not impoverish the slave owners as a class and
cause them to lose all they had gained.

Human being operate on a basis of self-interest and interest of close
kin and then other folks, anything else is hogwash.

As to secession, it is a very intelligent solution to a society with
two or more atagonistic groups where some preexisting  see India and
Pakistan, or the break-up of the Soviet Union.

> The time has come for us white Southerners to admit that our
> Confederate ancestors -- most whom were brave, admirable, honorable
> people devoted to their homes, families and cause - were in the wrong.

Explicitly how?  Pose a plausible path.

> _The South Was Right!_ is an exercise in unproductive bitterness.

I have read the book and do not see the bitterness. I see an ernest
intent to return power to the people, and sells books!

---snip
ray o'hara - 06 Oct 2006 02:53 GMT
> > ......
> > None of these truths, however, alters that fact that on both of the two
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> primary means of economic and social advancement stupid, is itself
> stupid.

western world opinion was against slavery. the south was fighting the
modern world in trying to preserve it. if they had had any sense they would
have been looking for a way out that didn't disrupt things. the north was
willing to let time take its course the south tried to hold on the to the
past and pretend things would never change. it was the souths bad choices
that ended slavery abruptly.

> Pose a plausible means of the slave owners (or a fraction of them)
> ending slavery that does not impoverish the slave owners as a class and
> cause them to lose all they had gained.

the south resisted all attempts at that discussion, gradual emancipation had
worked well in the north..
compensated emancipation was also brought up.
when such matters were discussed the south fell back on arguments about the
social aspects of slavery needing to be maintained.
plenty of methods were in play. but the south was not in a listening mood.

> Human being operate on a basis of self-interest and interest of close
> kin and then other folks, anything else is hogwash.

the trick being knowing what that  that self-interest is. starting a war
proved to be not in their best interest.
self-interest does not mean holding on to the past with a fanatical grip,
sometimes it means you have to adapt to a changing world..

> As to secession, it is a very intelligent solution to a society with
> two or more atagonistic groups where some preexisting  see India and
> Pakistan, or the break-up of the Soviet Union.

the differences between muslim pakistan and hindu india were quite broad.
the soviet union was a collection of completely different countries with
different laguages, religions and customs.
the united states was made up of one liguistic group sharing similar
customs, religion and hertage.

india and the pakis have fought several wars and are always on the verge of
war. russia is still trying to maintain their grip on several of thew
remaing "republics" and it is interfering in the internal affairs of others,

> > The time has come for us white Southerners to admit that our
> > Confederate ancestors -- most whom were brave, admirable, honorable
> > people devoted to their homes, families and cause - were in the wrong.
>
> Explicitly how?  Pose a plausible path.

gradual emancipation. compensated emancipation. there were many paths. the
south resisted any talk of them.
they considered  "African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper
status of the negro in our form of civilization".
such attitudes were not going to be changed easily.

> > _The South Was Right!_ is an exercise in unproductive bitterness.
>
> I have read the book and do not see the bitterness. I see an ernest
> intent to return power to the people, and sells books!

we know you don't al. it is not an attempt to return power to the people. it
is an attempt to turn the clock back to more repressive times.
its funny how libertarians claim tobe for personal liberty when all they
ever advocate is a system of economic slavery.
Robert Kolker - 06 Oct 2006 15:24 GMT
>  western world opinion was against slavery. the south was fighting the
> modern world in trying to preserve it. if they had had any sense they would
> have been looking for a way out that didn't disrupt things. the north was
> willing to let time take its course the south tried to hold on the to the
> past and pretend things would never change. it was the souths bad choices
> that ended slavery abruptly.

Had the Southrons been more farsighted and less ideologically commited
to (so-called) State's Rights, they could have negotiated a partial
subsidy for a long term manumission of the slaves. For example agreeing
to a definite date, say Jan 1, 1901 for total manumission, they could
have gotten most of the value back on their slaves (from labor and
subsidy) and have done with slavery in the next generation. That would
have provided time to get used to a new social order.

In the mean time the Southrons could have let their slaves take on wage
labor in the territories and gotten back a percentage of the wages as an
 agency fee. Thus as slavery wound down, it would have paid for its own
liquidation. It sure beats war and hundreds of thousands dead.

Given that Southron whites and negroes lived (unequally) cheek to jowl,
as the social order changed negroes could have been peacefully
integrated into the Southron social order without the stain of slavery.
A system of education provided to the children of slaves could have
conducted them into a livable relationship with Southron whites. It
would not have been social equality exactly, but it would have been a
humane transformation. It sure would have been better than what happened
at Selma.

Just about any choice was better than the Civil War. Think of 620,000
souls not destroyed and a century and a half of rancor to follow. If the
Southrons could manage their own transition to modernity they would not
have the humiliation of military defeat haunting them and the
generations to follow. It was not until after WW2 that Southrons more or
less reconciled themselves to modern times. Southron boys in the armed
forces socializing and fighting (and sometimes dying) with Yankees
against a common foe did a lot to put the pain of defeat into the past.
Anyway, that is my scenario of how slavery might have ended in the U.S.

Bob Kolker
cncfixxer - 02 Oct 2006 02:30 GMT
This jury sounds undecided regarding the question of legality.

We live under the same Constitution so the Litmus test should be the same
today as it was then .Not! ... because, the Justice's of the Supreme Court
are and always have been swayed by personal opinion.  This ebb and tide can
be seen by the dozens of rulings the Supreme Court has reversed itself, so
in my opinion if we want to figure out how the Constitutionality may have
been settled let's look at contemporary rulings of the Pre Civil War Court,
{Dred Scott v Standford,was the most famous}... it was a slam dunk for at
least 5 of the Justice's.  Chief Justice Roger B. Taney  ruled that blacks
were not citizens and therefore could not sue in federal court. Taney
further inflamed antislavery forces by declaring that Congress had no right
to ban slavery from U.S. territories.

It makes me wonder why the Southern States failed to persue a legal remedy.

It sounds too simple ...what am I missing?    Did they try to prevail in the
Courts?

Tom
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 14:51 GMT
> This jury sounds undecided regarding the question of legality.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> It makes me wonder why the Southern States failed to persue a legal remedy.

It was not up to them to challenge the legality of their own actions.
If the president felt their actions improper he should have taken them
to court.

> It sounds too simple ...what am I missing?    Did they try to prevail in the
> Courts?
>
> Tom
S Witmer - 02 Oct 2006 16:31 GMT
> > This jury sounds undecided regarding the question of legality.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> If the president felt their actions improper he should have taken them
> to court.

And of course we all know the proper thing to do when someone is
attacking you with deadly force is to ask them to step on down to the
courthouse with you so you can file charges...

<snip>
wjyoung - 30 Sep 2006 23:46 GMT
>>>Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
>>>out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and papers were sanctioned, but many more were not.  The opposition
> press was very active and vocal throughout the war.

Doesn't the First Amendment bar Congress from sanctioning even one
editor or newspaper?
Alfred Montestruc - 01 Oct 2006 13:00 GMT
> >>>Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> >>>out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Doesn't the First Amendment bar Congress from sanctioning even one
> editor or newspaper?

http://www.constitution.org/billofr_.htm

You mean:

---------quote----
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
-------------end quote---------

Well

1) It was not (initially) congress that was doing it, it was the
president's men.

2) They were not concerned with legalitieis and arrested and imprisoned
(and searched their property and siezed any papers or other stuff they
though subversive) folks because they thought they should be locked up
and had no warrents, nor trials or any nonsense like that (Badges, we
don't need no steeenking Badges!!)

So they were violating more the following:

------------quote
Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V]

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in
cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in
actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be
subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or
limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness
against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without
due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use,
without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a
speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district
wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have
been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature
and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses
against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his
favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

---------end quote.

No public trial, no warrent, no charges even.  Just like the bunch of
fascists the Republicans were.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 01 Oct 2006 17:30 GMT
Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
years whenever white Southerners thought that a particular magazine or
newspaper might contain ANY story the slightest bit critical of the
Peculiar Institution.

Take care,

Bob

Judy and Bob Huddleston
10643 Sperry Street
Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
huddleston.r@comcast.net

..the greatest and the noblest man of the last century was Abraham
Lincoln...Though America was his motherland and he was an American, he
regarded the whole world as his native land.

                    Mahatma Gandhi, August 26, 1905

SNIP
> > > This kind of thing is often asserted, but is nonetheless not true. There
> > > was no "heavy handed control of media" by the Republicans.  Some editors
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > Doesn't the First Amendment bar Congress from sanctioning even one
> > editor or newspaper?

SNIP
> Well
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> So they were violating more the following:
SNIP
> ---------end quote.
>
> No public trial, no warrent, no charges even.  Just like the bunch of
> fascists the Republicans were.
wjyoung - 02 Oct 2006 00:23 GMT
> Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Bob

Hello Bob,

We were discussing whether the actions of the US, specifically the
President of the US, ran afoul the First Amendment.  As Alfred noted,
the President was not enforcing the law as he sanctioned newspaper
editors, and thus it could not be true that Congress violated the First
Amendment since Congress was not involved with those actions.

As for your comment, the First Amendment only restrains the lawmaking
power of Congress.  It does not bar the States from making law that
abridges the freedom of speech or of the press.
S Witmer - 02 Oct 2006 14:34 GMT
> > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> power of Congress.  It does not bar the States from making law that
> abridges the freedom of speech or of the press.

Exactly which, and under what circumstances, did Lincoln "sanction"
newspapers?  Let's not include those that were shut down by overzealous
local officials or generals, but only those that Lincoln actually
issued the order for suppression, or that we can prove he was "in the
know" before the shutdown occurred.

I'm curious, because to hear some tell it one would think Lincoln shut
down half a dozen before breakfast on a daily basis, and yet I've never
seen any order by Lincoln (with one exception, taken far out of
context) shutting down a newspaper.
wjyoung - 03 Oct 2006 11:32 GMT
>>>Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
>>>and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Exactly which, and under what circumstances, did Lincoln "sanction"
> newspapers?

I don't know.  jfe@ams.org said it, and for the sake of argument I
assumed it to be true.

> Let's not include those that were shut down by overzealous
> local officials or generals, but only those that Lincoln actually
> issued the order for suppression, or that we can prove he was "in the
> know" before the shutdown occurred.

He was the commander in chief, which makes him responsible for the
actions of his subordinates even if he wasn't "in the know".  As such it
would have been his duty to right such wrongs by at least punishing
their insubordination to his command that they not behave that way
(there were such commands, weren't there?) and perhaps also by asking
Congress to withdraw funds from the Treasury to make compensation for
any damages inflicted.

> I'm curious, because to hear some tell it one would think Lincoln shut
> down half a dozen before breakfast on a daily basis, and yet I've never
> seen any order by Lincoln (with one exception, taken far out of
> context) shutting down a newspaper.
Alfred Montestruc - 03 Oct 2006 16:34 GMT
> > > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> newspapers?  Let's not include those that were shut down by overzealous
> local officials or generals,

That is not reasonable as Lincoln did not have "overzealous" public
officials who violated the rights of citizens arrested for it.

ALL those arrested and imprisoned by federal officials that were
answerable to the president (that is all military officers and most of
the rest), are his responsibility.  The buck stops at the oval office.

----------------snip
S Witmer - 04 Oct 2006 01:55 GMT
> > > > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > > > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> answerable to the president (that is all military officers and most of
> the rest), are his responsibility.  The buck stops at the oval office.

A very nice little platitude that means absolutely nothing.  You're
saying that Lincoln (and *every* other president since the founding of
the country) was personally responsible for any misconduct of any
federal employee, down to the least assistant postmaster or clerk in
Podunk USA?  Sorry, that not only is nonsensical, it's impossible.
Unless you want to imprison the president every time a junior assistant
postman in X county embezzles $5 out of the cash drawer.

Back to my original question - what newspapers did Lincoln *personally*
order shut down?  What shutdowns did he personally uphold after it he
knew about them?  I keep hearing references to the countless hapless
opposition newspapers that Lincoln the Ogre ordered shut down on a
whim, and yet the specifics (like names and locations of the
newspapers, the length of the shutdown, the *reason and context* for
the shutdown (were they printing military secrets?  Encouraging
desertion or sabotage?  Making fun of Lincoln's beard?)) are remarkably
scarce.  It's like the urban legends that "everyone knows" - everyone
knows of a cousin of a friend's neighbor's babysitter who microwaved
their poodle or who had a chihuaha that turned out to be a rat or
something of that sort.  And yet oddly enough no one can name the
person.
Alfred Montestruc - 04 Oct 2006 11:45 GMT
> > > > > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > > > > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> federal employee, down to the least assistant postmaster or clerk in
> Podunk USA?

When the employee deliberatly and with malice of forthought violates
the rights of a citizen and ignores orders of federal judges to stop,
and the president either knows and does nothing, or maintains his
office in such as state that such goings on become common and he does
not find out and his immediate subordinates do not make him aware or
enforce the law (by fireing the employee and having him arrested.)
without bothering him, then yes he is 100% responsible.

And for your information sir I do not think ANY President of the USA
before Lincoln had over 13,000 US Citizens at a time detained without
charges.  The only other presidents that I can think of that something
like that was FDR and Truman during WWII in detaining American citizens
of Japanese desent in camps, along with their enemy alien relitives
during a war with an outside enemy that had actually attacked the USA
by surprise in the middle of negociations.

That is as opposed to for months politley asking us to please evacuate
a fort that they held to be rightfully theirs and were trying very hard
to negocaite a peaceful solution and Mr. Lincoln was refusing to
negociate.  Then attacking the fort with many hours of notice that if
we did not leave it would be attacked at such and so time.

AFAIK no other large-scale detainments of US Citizens w/o charges has
ever been done.  So your attempt to trivialize Lincoln's role in this
is a slander on all other US Presidents IMHO.
S Witmer - 04 Oct 2006 15:30 GMT
> > > > > > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > > > > > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> enforce the law (by fireing the employee and having him arrested.)
> without bothering him, then yes he is 100% responsible.

And yet you've not provided the name or circumstances of even a single
newspaper, Al, let alone any evidence that Lincoln knew about it.

> And for your information sir I do not think ANY President of the USA
> before Lincoln had over 13,000 US Citizens at a time detained without
> charges.

Cites?  Names?

The only other presidents that I can think of that something
> like that was FDR and Truman during WWII in detaining American citizens
> of Japanese desent in camps, along with their enemy alien relitives
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That is as opposed to for months politley asking us to please evacuate
> a fort that they held to be rightfully theirs

By surrounding it with artillery?  Not very peaceful.

and were trying very hard
> to negocaite a peaceful solution and Mr. Lincoln was refusing to
> negociate.

Al, could you please remind me how many representatives from the
seceding states attended the Peace Convention?  Oh, that's right - none
whatsoever.  Sorta puts your comment about "trying very hard to
negotiate a peaceful solution" into perspective.

Then attacking the fort with many hours of notice that if
> we did not leave it would be attacked at such and so time.

In contrast to the many installations that were simply overwhelmed in
the wee hours by surprise.  The only reason that didn't happen to
Sumter is that it was too far to swim.

> AFAIK no other large-scale detainments of US Citizens w/o charges has
> ever been done.  So your attempt to trivialize Lincoln's role in this
> is a slander on all other US Presidents IMHO.

Asking for proof  of your assertions (which after at least two requests
you've still not provided, btw) is trivialization?  Do tell.
Stephen Graham - 04 Oct 2006 22:05 GMT
> When the employee deliberatly and with malice of forthought violates
> the rights of a citizen and ignores orders of federal judges to stop,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> enforce the law (by fireing the employee and having him arrested.)
> without bothering him, then yes he is 100% responsible.

So when are you going to start condemning Jackson, Van Buren, Harrison,
Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce and Buchanan for tolerating
censorship of the US Mail?

> And for your information sir I do not think ANY President of the USA
> before Lincoln had over 13,000 US Citizens at a time detained without
> charges.  

One should note that the vast majority of these were in the area of
military operations. By Al's standards they weren't US citizens.

> That is as opposed to for months politley asking us to please evacuate
> a fort that they held to be rightfully theirs and were trying very hard
> to negocaite a peaceful solution and Mr. Lincoln was refusing to
> negociate.  

For most of that period, it was Mr Buchanan refusing to negotiate.
Alfred Montestruc - 05 Oct 2006 19:42 GMT
> > When the employee deliberatly and with malice of forthought violates
> > the rights of a citizen and ignores orders of federal judges to stop,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce and Buchanan for tolerating
> censorship of the US Mail?

On what legal basis could they stop it?  The first amendment did not
apply to state governments till after the 14th amendment, so the
federal government would not have a legal leg to stand on.  The US
Snail must still obey state laws while doing business in those states.
Now if a state trys to censor the mail the US Snail can point to the
constitution, 1st & 14th amendment and tell them to shove it.

> > And for your information sir I do not think ANY President of the USA
> > before Lincoln had over 13,000 US Citizens at a time detained without
> > charges.
>
> One should note that the vast majority of these were in the area of
> military operations.

Cite it.  Many were held in states like New York and Maryland.

> By Al's standards they weren't US citizens.

Wrong.  I am speaking of US citizens of non seceeded states like
Maryland, New Jersey and New York being held in prisons without
charges.

> > That is as opposed to for months politley asking us to please evacuate
> > a fort that they held to be rightfully theirs and were trying very hard
> > to negocaite a peaceful solution and Mr. Lincoln was refusing to
> > negociate.
>
> For most of that period, it was Mr Buchanan refusing to negotiate,

Waiting for the new president to give the tarbaby to, yes I understand.
Regardless Lincoln know how long they had been waiting and how central
negociations would be to any possible peaceful resolution, and he
deliberatly snubbed them, that is to say deliberatly picked a fight.
Stephen Graham - 06 Oct 2006 00:30 GMT
>> So when are you going to start condemning Jackson, Van Buren, Harrison,
>> Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce and Buchanan for tolerating
>> censorship of the US Mail?
>
> On what legal basis could they stop it?  

These were actions taken by US Postmasters and Postal Service employees
and contractors. Federal law applies.

> The US
> Snail must still obey state laws while doing business in those states.

No, it doesn't. This was settled early on. See the arguments over the
Bank of the United States.

>>> And for your information sir I do not think ANY President of the USA
>>> before Lincoln had over 13,000 US Citizens at a time detained without
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Cite it.  Many were held in states like New York and Maryland.

Farber, Lincoln's Constitution, pp.163-4.

>> By Al's standards they weren't US citizens.
>
> Wrong.  I am speaking of US citizens of non seceeded states like
> Maryland, New Jersey and New York being held in prisons without
> charges.

And how many of these do you think there were? And what's your cite for
your figure?

>> For most of that period, it was Mr Buchanan refusing to negotiate,
>
> Waiting for the new president to give the tarbaby to, yes I understand.
>  Regardless Lincoln know how long they had been waiting and how central
> negociations would be to any possible peaceful resolution, and he
> deliberatly snubbed them, that is to say deliberatly picked a fight.

His job was to defend that fort as necessary, as Mr Buchanan had done.

What was to be negotiated? It wasn't SC's fort.
Alfred Montestruc - 06 Oct 2006 15:24 GMT
> >> So when are you going to start condemning Jackson, Van Buren, Harrison,
> >> Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce and Buchanan for tolerating
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> No, it doesn't.

So a mail truck that exceeds the local speed limit does not get a
ticket?

> This was settled early on. See the arguments over the
> Bank of the United States.

This is not about a bank or banking laws and unless the US congress
explicitly wrote laws  (as they did to cover the bank of the US) then
state laws control.

> >>> And for your information sir I do not think ANY President of the USA
> >>> before Lincoln had over 13,000 US Citizens at a time detained without
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Farber, Lincoln's Constitution, pp.163-4.

> >> By Al's standards they weren't US citizens.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> And how many of these do you think there were?

Too many.

http://www.bookrags.com/research/civil-liberties-civil-war-aaw-02/
-------------quote
Approximately one out of every one hundred males in Missouri ended up
in detention, and in 1862, in anticipation of opposition to the militia
draft of that year, Secretary of War Edwin Stanton suspended the writ
until the draft quota was met that fall.

The federal draft law of 1863 prompted a new round of opposition to
federal authority and prompted the passage of the Habeas Corpus Act of
1863. This legitimated past executive actions and, since some state
officials were trying to thwart the draft by issuing the writ, provided
federal officials with immunity from state prosecution in carrying out
their duties. The administration did provide review commissions to weed
out many of those taken into custody. No accurate figures can be
deduced on the number of persons detained but at least 16,000 persons
were imprisoned on suspicion and held indefinitely without trials.
-------------------snip

>And what's your cite for
> your figure?

The above that indicates the number was large (16,000+) but cannot
accuratly be measured.  Further where many of the men detained were
draft dodgers and so were not in occupied territory.

> >> For most of that period, it was Mr Buchanan refusing to negotiate,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> What was to be negotiated? It wasn't SC's fort.

That is at least to a significant degree a matter of opinion, as are
all questions of who owns what.  Who owns the federal government was a
legitimate bone of contention IMHO on this.  Even if the contract
between the USA and South Carolina is all that is claimed by others, it
is bogus as the rights to the land of South Carolina fundamentally
belongs to the people of South Carolina and both the governments (state
of South Carolina and US Federal) are to a large extent creatures owned
in whole or in part by the people of South Carolina, and anything owned
by either is likewise owned in whole or in part by those people.

True the Federal government is the creature of all the people of the
USA, but the people of New York have no more reasonable claim on Fort
Sumter, than the people of South Carolina have on the harbor defences
of New York City, even if  both are nominal property of the Federal
government.
Stephen Graham - 06 Oct 2006 22:03 GMT
>>> The US
>>> Snail must still obey state laws while doing business in those states.
>> No, it doesn't.
>
> So a mail truck that exceeds the local speed limit does not get a
> ticket?

Congress could legally exempt mail vehicles from traffic regulations.
Note, for instance, that the vehicles don't carry licenses from the
various states they operate in.

We can also distinguish between laws governing the operation of a
business and traffic laws.

>> This was settled early on. See the arguments over the
>> Bank of the United States.
>
> This is not about a bank or banking laws and unless the US congress
> explicitly wrote laws  (as they did to cover the bank of the US) then
> state laws control.

Such as "An Act to establish the Post-Office and Post Roads within the
United States" of 20 February 1792 and its successors? (Prior to that
date, the US Post Office operated under the regulations passed by
Congress under the Articles of Confederation.)

You should read up on the controversies concerning the Bank of the
United States as one of the central issues resolved is the extent to
which states may regulate federal agencies (basically, not at all).

>>>> By Al's standards they weren't US citizens.
>>> Wrong.  I am speaking of US citizens of non seceeded states like
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Too many.

But you don't actually have a number, do you?

>> And what's your cite for
>> your figure?
>
> The above that indicates the number was large (16,000+) but cannot
> accuratly be measured.  Further where many of the men detained were
> draft dodgers and so were not in occupied territory.

Draft-dodgers aren't held without charges and are legitimately subject
to military arrest and trial.

Care to try again?

>> What was to be negotiated? It wasn't SC's fort.
>
> That is at least to a significant degree a matter of opinion

It was a settled matter of law, explicitly covered by the US Constitution.
S Witmer - 06 Oct 2006 22:03 GMT
> > >> So when are you going to start condemning Jackson, Van Buren, Harrison,
> > >> Tyler, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore, Pierce and Buchanan for tolerating
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> So a mail truck that exceeds the local speed limit does not get a
> ticket?

That's a separate matter.  Federal employees are not above the law, but
their federal duties cannot be interfered with by state authorities.
In other words, the cop could issue a ticket but can't confiscate the
mail.  See McCulloch v Maryland and other Supreme Court decisions that
explain that a state cannot interfere with the federal government's
ability to carry out its powers.

> > This was settled early on. See the arguments over the
> > Bank of the United States.
>
> This is not about a bank or banking laws and unless the US congress
> explicitly wrote laws  (as they did to cover the bank of the US) then
> state laws control.

It is about the states's power (or lack thereof) to interfere with
federal powers.

> > >>> And for your information sir I do not think ANY President of the USA
> > >>> before Lincoln had over 13,000 US Citizens at a time detained without
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> draft of that year, Secretary of War Edwin Stanton suspended the writ
> until the draft quota was met that fall.

Missouri was a war zone in 1862, and a non-trivial percentage of the
male population was either in the Confederate army or operating as
irregular guerrilas against the Union forces in the state or against
their Unionist neighbors.

> The federal draft law of 1863 prompted a new round of opposition to
> federal authority and prompted the passage of the Habeas Corpus Act of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> were imprisoned on suspicion and held indefinitely without trials.
> -------------------snip

So this was done with Congressional approval.

> >And what's your cite for
> > your figure?
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> of New York City, even if  both are nominal property of the Federal
> government.

The federal government is an entity that is capable of purchasing and
owning land.  It had clear ownership of Fort Sumter.  Are you
suggesting that if the British government purchased a few acres of
ground in South Dakota for some reason, that the state of South Dakota
can unilaterally, without legal proceedings, without invoking eminent
domain, but simply by unilateral demand unsupported by state law DEMAND
at gunpoint that the British vacate that property?

Using that logic, the state you live in can send the militia to seize
your property at whim, and if you resist for any reason they are
perfectly within their rights to shoot you dead, or at least fire
cannons in your direction until you vacate.
S Witmer - 06 Oct 2006 01:22 GMT
<snip>

> > > And for your information sir I do not think ANY President of the USA
> > > before Lincoln had over 13,000 US Citizens at a time detained without
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Maryland, New Jersey and New York being held in prisons without
> charges.

<drumming fingers and checking watch>

So, when, exactly, can we expect to see some kind of offering from you
regarding which newspapers, when, why, etc?  If it was so prevalent,
one would think there would be a veritable plethora of evidence, yet
here we are with request number four for such evidence and none's been
forthcoming so far...

> > > That is as opposed to for months politley asking us to please evacuate
> > > a fort that they held to be rightfully theirs and were trying very hard
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> negociations would be to any possible peaceful resolution, and he
> deliberatly snubbed them, that is to say deliberatly picked a fight.

Al, what part of "no representatives from the seceding states bothered
to attend the Peace Convention" are you having trouble understanding?
Because it's obvious from your comment above that you either do not
understand it or are deliberately ignoring it, since it means that the
*seceding states* chose to forego negotiations and deliberately snubbed
them (I'm sorry, I just don't see non-negotiable ultimatums as
"negotiation" - I see them as non-negotiable ultimatums, and that is
what the south's representatives were offering Lincoln).
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 14:45 GMT
> > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> power of Congress.  It does not bar the States from making law that
> abridges the freedom of speech or of the press.

Good point. I forgot, for a moment that the 14th amendment is a post
war amendment.  That amendment makes such acts by a state
unconstitutional, but one should note that the actual legal
ratification of the 14th amendment is questionable.

http://www.constitution.org/14ll/no14th.htm

Anyway the modern legal basis of application of the 1st amendment to
states is the 14th amendment as so Bob was acting as if the southern
state were acting illegally or unconstitutionally in censorship of
abolitionist literature when in fact they were not at all.

That was also the basis of state laws against obscenity and so on.

Of course the yankees did not really mean it to be taken literally as
we see all these BS rulings out of the courts about comminity standards
for obscenity and porn being which if the 14th amendment were taken on
face value would be bogus.  If we take the 14th amendment at face value
ANY sort of printed or motion picture media ought to be allowed to be
sold.

This is a problem which has eroded american respect for law since the
war.
Stephen Graham - 02 Oct 2006 18:41 GMT
>> As for your comment, the First Amendment only restrains the lawmaking
>> power of Congress.  It does not bar the States from making law that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> unconstitutional, but one should note that the actual legal
> ratification of the 14th amendment is questionable.

Censorship of the mails was carried out by local postmasters, who were
federal employees, of course.

As for censorship of the press, freedom of speech and press provisions
were a standard feature of state constitutions. See, for example, the
Alabama and Virginia state constitutions of the period. Thus, while
suppression of newspapers by various state and local officials may not
have violated the US Constitution, it did violate the state constitutions.
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 23:06 GMT
> >> As for your comment, the First Amendment only restrains the lawmaking
> >> power of Congress.  It does not bar the States from making law that
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> suppression of newspapers by various state and local officials may not
> have violated the US Constitution, it did violate the state constitutions.

Really. Turnabout is fairplay right?  So did the state supreme courts
so rule?
I think not.

If they did fine in principle then they were in violation of their own
constitution, but please stop using double standards for Republicans
and Democrats.  Lincoln's acts as president to arrest sitting state
legislators and the governer of Maryland had no legal or constitutional
basis.
Stephen Graham - 03 Oct 2006 11:32 GMT
> Really. Turnabout is fairplay right?  So did the state supreme courts
> so rule?
> I think not.

Why do you need a state supreme court to so rule? You're perfectly happy
to condemn the federal government in the face of US Supreme Court
rulings you dislike. The state constitutions are perfectly clear.

> If they did fine in principle then they were in violation of their own
> constitution, but please stop using double standards for Republicans
> and Democrats.  

So far in this portion of the debate, you are the one holding to a
double-standard, again.
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 00:23 GMT
> Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
> years whenever white Southerners thought that a particular magazine or
> newspaper might contain ANY story the slightest bit critical of the
> Peculiar Institution.

No I have not.  I am not defending the CSA.  I am attacking the tyrrany
of Lincoln and the Republican party.  Had Lincoln not risen to the
baiting of the CSA and allowed the lower south to seceed in peace, the
upper south (Virginia most important of which) would have stayed.

Slavery would have ended faster in the upper south than had the nation
stayed together at peace, as the demographics of national politics
would be much changed and the rump CSA would not have the wealth or
population base to be much of a threat to anyone.

You should note that the trend had been for states to become free
states in a gradual southward trend.  NY, PA, had become free within
the last 40 years or so.   New Jersey and Maryland were not yet free
states but obvioulsy the institution was dying in those states.  Some
evidenence of this existed in Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee as well.
It was only strong in the deep southern state that seceeded in the
first wave.

It's own internal security issues (slavery) and lack of military
manpower (almost 100% white fighting men where whites would be about
50% of the population), and the now much closer fronter with the USA
which would have to be guarded would drastically reduce it's military
threat to the USA or other nations in the area.

In the end this would make it vulnerable to economic pressure to end
slavery, thus division and conquest of slavery at a tiny fraction of
the cost paid in our history.

The best way was to follow the law and the principles of the nation,
not to attempt to force people to stay in a political union agains
their will.

That, the violation of civil rights and liberties of northern citizens,
and the various atrocities of that war make him and the Republican
party monsters.

> Take care,
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> > No public trial, no warrent, no charges even.  Just like the bunch of
> > fascists the Republicans were.
ray o'hara - 02 Oct 2006 02:30 GMT
> > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> baiting of the CSA and allowed the lower south to seceed in peace, the
> upper south (Virginia most important of which) would have stayed.

yes you are defending the south, you excuse every provocation they made and
then blame lincoln for doing his constitutional duty to suppress rebellion.
letting the lowersouth go was a non-starter. it wasn't about virginia it was
about maintaining the whole. giving in to bullying threats onlt begats more
of the same. the south was violating the law and lincoln was sworn to and
expected to uphold it. your sensibilities 150 years later was not a
consideration.

> Slavery would have ended faster in the upper south than had the nation
> stayed together at peace, as the demographics of national politics
> would be much changed and the rump CSA would not have the wealth or
> population base to be much of a threat to anyone.

the idea was to maintain the integrity of the entire nation and not to end
slavery in the upper south.  the north was not to end slavery quickly, it
was to maintain the union.

> You should note that the trend had been for states to become free
> states in a gradual southward trend.  NY, PA, had become free within
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> and the various atrocities of that war make him and the Republican
> party monsters.

the best way to follow the law was to uphold the law.
it was the south who started the war, it was the south that was committing
the atrocities against mankind. no federal force ever acted as did quatrill
a commisioned CSA officer. the south"sowed the wind and reaped the
whirlwind"
the CSA was 100% to blame for what happened they chose war over humanity,
over negotiation and they paid for their folly.
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 17:24 GMT
> > > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> yes you are defending the south, you excuse every provocation they made

If you bother to read what I write you will find that I spend most of
my time attacking Lincoln and the Republicans.  However the bottom line
is, the War Between the States, or whatever you want to call it was
lost by the American people as a whole.   The only real winners were
high ranking Republicans and their cronies.

>and
> then blame lincoln for doing his constitutional duty to suppress rebellion.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> slavery in the upper south.  the north was not to end slavery quickly, it
> was to maintain the union.

Which is worthless if it is done at gunpoint.

A political union that is forced on people who do not want it is
tyranny.
HankC - 02 Oct 2006 23:23 GMT
> > > > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > > > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> lost by the American people as a whole.   The only real winners were
> high ranking Republicans and their cronies.

Are you counting the 4 million freed slaves as 'Republican cronies'?

HankC
Alfred Montestruc - 03 Oct 2006 01:01 GMT
> > > > > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > > > > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Are you counting the 4 million freed slaves as 'Republican cronies'?

No.  Nor should you.  On paper they were free.  How many generations
did they have to wait for some vague semblance of the rights of other
Americans.  As I count it was four, more than a normal human lifetime,
and in the mean time, things actually got worse for a while (a
generation or so) in terms of violence and economics.

Yes they were "free", almost all with no education, no money, with
which to take advantage of this freedom for about 10 years.  Then the
fickle northerners got tired, and abandoned the ex-slaves to the tender
mercies of very angry white southerners, so long as nothing done
amounted to chattle slavery of non-convict ex-slaves, and even that
limit was streached to the breaking point.

If you want to help people, help them.  Half measures often make things
worse.
ray o'hara - 03 Oct 2006 15:13 GMT
> No.  Nor should you.  On paper they were free.  How many generations
> did they have to wait for some vague semblance of the rights of other
> Americans.  As I count it was four, more than a normal human lifetime,
> and in the mean time, things actually got worse for a while (a
> generation or so) in terms of violence and economics.

at least after emancipation they were on the road, using the racism of the
south to say they should have stayed slaves is sick.
i don't recall any freedmen ever pining for the good old days of bondage.
all you are doing al is using the crime of jim crow to justify the crime of
slavery maybe is the southerner was actually willing to live up to the
christian ideals they make such a public show of professing none of that
wou;ld have happened. stop appologizing for slavery..

> Yes they were "free", almost all with no education, no money, with
> which to take advantage of this freedom for about 10 years.  Then the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> If you want to help people, help them.  Half measures often make things
> worse.

they were free. that the "angry southerner" chose to be a beast and murder
and oppress the freedmen is a sin on their soul.
is the  white south ever resposible for any of their actiona al? do we
always have to give them a free pass? accept their tantrums? let them commit
crimes against humanity? why do you think the white southerner is exempt
from basic human decency?  why was the north supposed to babysit the south?
are you saying the white southerner is just a creature in the thrall of
their passions? they have no self control and need to be watched and forced
to do what is right?
HankC - 03 Oct 2006 16:52 GMT
> > > > > > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > > > > > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> and in the mean time, things actually got worse for a while (a
> generation or so) in terms of violence and economics.

And for women it was 2 generations, Asian Americans over 3, and Native
Americans are pretty much still waiting...

The war and it's aftermath gave a tremendous boost to the rights of
everyone not a white male. The Civil Rights Act and 14th amendment
provided citizenship to anyone born in the US.

Baby steps? sure, but better than before. It's interesting how many
original ideas of the 'Radical' Republicans were forced to fruition by
events...

> Yes they were "free", almost all with no education, no money, with
> which to take advantage of this freedom for about 10 years.  Then the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> If you want to help people, help them.  Half measures often make things
> worse.

Perhaps, but what was a 'full' measure in 1865?

When comparing actual history to nebulous, fictional ideals,  history
will never 'measure up'...

HankC
Alfred Montestruc - 05 Oct 2006 19:42 GMT
> > > > > > > Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> > > > > > > and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> everyone not a white male. The Civil Rights Act and 14th amendment
> provided citizenship to anyone born in the US.

At the cost of 620,000 lives (equivelent to ~ 6 million today if as a
fraction of population) and many very evil legal and governmental
precidents.  IMHO the bad precidents are the biggest issue.

In any case, fyi the passage of the 14th amendment may not have been
legal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

-----------quote
Controversy over ratification
A number of individuals argue that the ratification of the 14th
Amendment violated Article V of the Constitution. For instance, Bruce
Ackerman argues that:

The 14th Amendment was proposed by a rump Congress that did not include
representatives and senators from most ex-Confederate states, and, had
those congressmen been present, the Amendment would never have passed.
Ex-Confederate states were counted for Article V purposes of
ratification, but were not counted for Article I purposes of
representation in Congress.
The ratifications of the ex-Confederate states were not truly free, but
were coerced. For instance, many ex-Confederate states had their
readmittance to the Union conditioned on ratifying the 14th Amendment.
---------------end quote

Not that I would expect courts to undo it as it has been sitting law
for about six generations, but the precident of a political party
strong arm forcing the passage of a constitutional amendment is really
bad.

> Baby steps? sure, but better than before.

The cost was too high for the gain.  The gain could have been had much
cheaper IMHO.  Apartide was ended by boycotts, slavery in the British
Empire was ended without any war, by long effort by the anti-slavery
society in the 1830s, do recall that all sugar production in the
British Empire was based on slave labor before that time.

It was also ended in Brazil in the 1880s with no war.  The idea that it
could not be ended without a war is absurd as the end of slavery in the
British Empire and Brazil shows.

> It's interesting how many
> original ideas of the 'Radical' Republicans were forced to fruition by
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Perhaps, but what was a 'full' measure in 1865?

I'd rather think about 1860 when you could save 620,000 lives by
avoiding the war, and could set the stage for the end of slavery.  The
upper south would not have seceeded if the US government had recognized
the 7 state confederacy and begain diplomatic relations.  North
Carolina, Virginia, Tenneesee and Arkansaw stay in the union of their
own free will, and in all of them slavery is already much weaker.

Assume you have power over the abolitionists and administration (for
the sake of argument).

First move, pass a constitutional amendment to regularize secession and
make it less attractive (they get nothing but the land they sit on and
buildings, all other federal assets stay with the union) but possible,
this will not stampeed Virginia and other states out of the union, but
will secure them better.

Second, move make the sale of slaves from the USA to anywhere else in
the world illegal.

Third move, start boycott of slave grown or made products, get the
British Empire to help.

Fourth move start a compensated emancipation program in the USA.

Slavery will end in the USA quickly and in the CSA after the boycott of
slave made products has time to work.

> When comparing actual history to nebulous, fictional ideals,  history
> will never 'measure up'...

Ok compair the end of slavery in the British Empire or Brazil with that
in the USA.

> HankC
ray o'hara - 06 Oct 2006 02:53 GMT
> I'd rather think about 1860 when you could save 620,000 lives by
> avoiding the war, and could set the stage for the end of slavery.  The
> upper south would not have seceeded if the US government had recognized
> the 7 state confederacy and begain diplomatic relations.  North
> Carolina, Virginia, Tenneesee and Arkansaw stay in the union of their
> own free will, and in all of them slavery is already much weaker.

the south ciould have avoided war but they didn't. they chose to start one.
england ,france and russia could have avoided 20,000,000+ million deaths if
they had just aquiesced to the germans in what became WWII.
sometimesd when on side is forcing the fight you have to pick up the sword
and defend yourself.
the loyal americans of the 1860s thought america was worth the sacrifice. we
understand that you would rather submit to slavery than ever defend freedom
and that it is better to be alive in a stalinist world than free
fortunately for america that is not the prevailing opinion.

> Assume you have power over the abolitionists and administration (for
> the sake of argument).
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> > HankC
Alfred Montestruc - 06 Oct 2006 22:03 GMT
> > I'd rather think about 1860 when you could save 620,000 lives by
> > avoiding the war, and could set the stage for the end of slavery.  The
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> england ,france and russia could have avoided 20,000,000+ million deaths if
> they had just aquiesced to the germans in what became WWII.

Apples and Oranges  the south wanted to be left alone, Germany wanted
to take over everything.  In any case the Germans would have killed
millions anyway, and southerners were not known for mass murder.
ray o'hara - 06 Oct 2006 22:15 GMT
> > > I'd rather think about 1860 when you could save 620,000 lives by
> > > avoiding the war, and could set the stage for the end of slavery.  The
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> to take over everything.  In any case the Germans would have killed
> millions anyway, and southerners were not known for mass murder.

not at all. the germans did not want war with france and england, they
wanted to be left alone in the west.
ray o'hara - 06 Oct 2006 02:53 GMT
> First move, pass a constitutional amendment to regularize secession and
> make it less attractive (they get nothing but the land they sit on and
> buildings, all other federal assets stay with the union) but possible,
> this will not stampeed Virginia and other states out of the union, but
> will secure them better.

> Second, move make the sale of slaves from the USA to anywhere else in
> the world illegal.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Slavery will end in the USA quickly and in the CSA after the boycott of
> slave made products has time to work.

none of that preserves the union. you keep making the same mistake in
thinking that the north was fighting against slavery.
it was the union al , the union,  slavery was the souths cause.

> > When comparing actual history to nebulous, fictional ideals,  history
> > will never 'measure up'...
>
> Ok compair the end of slavery in the British Empire or Brazil with that
> in the USA.

the slave owners in brazil and the british empire didn't start a war. they
accepted the ruleof law of the national government
Alfred Montestruc - 06 Oct 2006 22:03 GMT
> > First move, pass a constitutional amendment to regularize secession and
> > make it less attractive (they get nothing but the land they sit on and
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> none of that preserves the union.

Political unions forced on people against their will are not worth
preserving.

> you keep making the same mistake in
> thinking that the north was fighting against slavery.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the slave owners in brazil and the british empire didn't start a war. they
> accepted the ruleof law of the national government.

Changing the national government was not illegal in the USA, neither
was secession.  The problem was not in the south not accepting rule of
law, it was in the Lincoln administration not accepting secession.
S Witmer - 06 Oct 2006 23:24 GMT
> > > First move, pass a constitutional amendment to regularize secession and
> > > make it less attractive (they get nothing but the land they sit on and
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Changing the national government was not illegal in the USA,

True - it's called the legislative process for minor changes within
Constitutional bounds, or the Constitutional amendment process when
changes are needed to the very framework of the Constitution itself.

neither
> was secession.

<sigh>

Voiding federal powers within the seceding states unilaterally
contravenes the Supremacy Clause.  I won't elaborate because we've been
through that dance a thousand times at least.

The problem was not in the south not accepting rule of
> law, it was in the Lincoln administration not accepting secession.

Had secession been accomplished via constitutional amendment, fine and
dandy.  I *might* even be persuaded that legislation via Congress might
be sufficient.  But unilateral secession on a state by state basis?
Never.  It's rebellion, plain and simple.  Now, if you want to talk
about natural rights and the right of rebellion, that's one thing.  But
the way the south did it in 1860-61, not Constitutional.
David Empey - 07 Oct 2006 14:21 GMT
"S Witmer" <witmergreen@aol.com> wrote in news:1160170290.907235.8210
@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Had secession been accomplished via constitutional amendment, fine and
> dandy.  I *might* even be persuaded that legislation via Congress might
> be sufficient.

My (probably naive) question is, supposing Congress had passed a bill
recognizing the secession of a state, and the state had seceded, and the
president had signed the bill--well, how could that *not* be sufficient?
Who could effectively object?

I suppose there's some obvious answer I'm not seeing here; there usually
is.

Signature

Dave Empey

Remember, if you're doing any major experiments in stellar
dynamics, always mount a scratch star first! --Richard Todd

S Witmer - 07 Oct 2006 15:30 GMT
> "S Witmer" <witmergreen@aol.com> wrote in news:1160170290.907235.8210
> @k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Remember, if you're doing any major experiments in stellar
> dynamics, always mount a scratch star first! --Richard Todd

Someone objecting to the "secession bill" could find a case to take to
the Supreme Court and rule on whether the bill passed Constitutional
muster.  If the SC felt not, then no secession.
David Empey - 08 Oct 2006 03:13 GMT
> Someone objecting to the "secession bill" could find a case to take
> to the Supreme Court and rule on whether the bill passed
> Constitutional muster.  If the SC felt not, then no secession.

Ah.

OK, but you can't just arbitrarily claim "bill X is unconstitutional"
and get a hearing before the Supreme Court, can you?  

Signature

Dave Empey

Remember, if you're doing any major experiments in stellar
dynamics, always mount a scratch star first! --Richard Todd

ray o'hara - 08 Oct 2006 05:11 GMT
> > Someone objecting to the "secession bill" could find a case to take
> > to the Supreme Court and rule on whether the bill passed
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> OK, but you can't just arbitrarily claim "bill X is unconstitutional"
> and get a hearing before the Supreme Court, can you?

the court decides what it will hear. but i can't omagine they wouldn't hear
such a case and if they chose not to jhear it then it is by default
constitutional.
scribe7716 - 07 Oct 2006 21:23 GMT
> > Had secession been accomplished via constitutional amendment, fine and
> > dandy.  I *might* even be persuaded that legislation via Congress might
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> president had signed the bill--well, how could that *not* be sufficient?
> Who could effectively object?

The Supremes.  That is someone could argue that such a bill was
unconstitutional and take it to the Supremes.
ray o'hara - 06 Oct 2006 23:24 GMT
> > > Third move, start boycott of slave grown or made products, get the
> > > British Empire to help.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Political unions forced on people against their will are not worth
> preserving.

there were many in the confederacy who had it forced on them , inclding the
slaves,how do you thonk they would hsave voted?
the insurectionists were violating the law. the government was right to try
to uphold it.

> > you keep making the same mistake in
> > thinking that the north was fighting against slavery.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> was secession.  The problem was not in the south not accepting rule of
> law, it was in the Lincoln administration not accepting secession.

actually were. as has been pointed out to you coutless times.
the south rejectyed the law rather than try to change it. they participated
in an open and fair election and the didn't like the result.
S Witmer - 07 Oct 2006 05:04 GMT
>> "Alfred Montestruc" <montestruc@gmail.com> wrote in message

<snip>

> > Political unions forced on people against their will are not worth
> > preserving.
>
> there were many in the confederacy who had it forced on them , inclding the
> slaves,how do you thonk they would hsave voted?

That's an extremely interesting point.  One could make an argument that
anyone who votes for the losing side in an election is having a
political union forced on them.  But I would certainly hope that Al
isn't advocating for the end of democracy.

<snip>
Alfred Montestruc - 07 Oct 2006 15:36 GMT
> >> "Alfred Montestruc" <montestruc@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> anyone who votes for the losing side in an election is having a
> political union forced on them.

No.  One can choose to accept the union with the other people running
it as better than no union at all, or not.  Depends on the individual
and the union.  ;-)

The question of whether an election was lost or not and whether the
union is forced is wholly seperate.

> But I would certainly hope that Al
> isn't advocating for the end of democracy.

Actually I am not a fan of the dictionary definition of democracy, it
can be a very ugly form of tyranny.  Look it up sometime, a lynch mob
is a form of democracy.

I prefer a constitutional republic with rule of law and individual
rights held as sacred.  Individual rights are more important than the
opinion of the majority of people.  If you think that a majority vote
should decide all questions, then judges that set free people who the
majority think guilty because their guilt was not proven beyond
reasonable doubt are not at all democratic.
ray o'hara - 07 Oct 2006 21:46 GMT
> > >> "Alfred Montestruc" <montestruc@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> The question of whether an election was lost or not and whether the
> union is forced is wholly seperate.

they were happy with the union when they won the elections, states rigys
meant nothing when they forced the fugitive slave law on the north.
they had joined the union of their own free will in the case of the original
13 and the rest were created by the union.
the only thing "forced" was that they played by the riles they helped draft.
when they couldn't bully the north they tried to illegally quit.

> > But I would certainly hope that Al
> > isn't advocating for the end of democracy.
>
> Actually I am not a fan of the dictionary definition of democracy, it
> can be a very ugly form of tyranny.  Look it up sometime, a lynch mob
> is a form of democracy.

that's why we live in a constitutional republic. the south decided they
wanted to create a state based on tyranny.

> I prefer a constitutional republic with rule of law and individual
> rights held as sacred.  Individual rights are more important than the
> opinion of the majority of people.  If you think that a majority vote
> should decide all questions, then judges that set free people who the
> majority think guilty because their guilt was not proven beyond
> reasonable doubt are not at all democratic.

individual rights for the moneyed and the priviledged as concieved by the
confederacy you mean.
the CSA had a poor record on the "for everybody" point.
unless by sacred you mean rich and white.
Alfred Montestruc - 08 Oct 2006 05:11 GMT
> > > >> "Alfred Montestruc" <montestruc@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> they were happy with the union when they won the elections,

The south as a whole was not on the winning side in every election from
the revolution till 1860.

;-)  please try to be more realistic.

--------------snip
Alfred Montestruc - 07 Oct 2006 21:23 GMT
> > > > Third move, start boycott of slave grown or made products, get the
> > > > British Empire to help.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> there were many in the confederacy who had it forced on them, inclding the
> slaves,how do you thonk they would hsave voted?

I have answered that already, but.

1) Taking it as a straight question and given the way that elections
were run in all of the USA (no secret ballot, voting done by show of
hands at a polling place), slaves would have voted the way their owner
told them to.  Which is one reason why non-slave owners in the south
would never have tolerated slaves voting as it would give the slave
owner too much power.

Free blacks opinion would probably be wildly divergent.  Some would
vote the way they thought their former master would have wished, some
would vote otherwise.  That vote would be small in any case.

Southern white women would have probably been more ardent for secession
than men this is as reported by southern men in diarys.  That might
have been because they did not have military obligations to worry
about.

2) Hypothetically if a secret ballot existed as of 1860, and
hypothetically if slaves were allowed to vote, a large majority would
still vote the way they thought their master's wanted them to for
several reasons.

  A) The methods of control of slaves were such that a large fraction
of slaves could be considered brainwashed and actually loyal to their
masters.  These included the fact that many slaves were reared by their
masters as surrogate parents, or their current master's parents.  Thus
they would see themselves as voting in the interest of their family.

 B) The master would know the results of the election and the number
of votes in his polling place and can count.  For those who do not
know, you can go and look up how many voted for and gainst each issue
or candidate in each polling place, given that the number of persons
per polling place will not be very large, if the slaves as a group
voted against the wishes of the owners, the owners would know, and
quite possibly punish.

So regardless slaves if they were slaves, would vote the way the owners
wanted.  Catch-22.

----snip
ray o'hara - 07 Oct 2006 22:42 GMT
>    A) The methods of control of slaves were such that a large fraction
> of slaves could be considered brainwashed and actually loyal to their
> masters.  These included the fact that many slaves were reared by their
> masters as surrogate parents, or their current master's parents.  Thus
> they would see themselves as voting in the interest of their family.

the slavestook off the first time union troops came near. they weren't as
loyal to ol'massa as the southrons think

>   B) The master would know the results of the election and the number
> of votes in his polling place and can count.  For those who do not
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> voted against the wishes of the owners, the owners would know, and
> quite possibly punish.

at least you admit the southrons were brutal master
Alfred Montestruc - 08 Oct 2006 05:11 GMT
> >    A) The methods of control of slaves were such that a large fraction
> > of slaves could be considered brainwashed and actually loyal to their
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>  the slavestook off the first time union troops came near.

A few did, most did not.  Some were conscriptied by the union army to
do labor against both their wishes and that of their masters.  That
does not count as running off.

>they weren't as
> loyal to ol'massa as the southrons think

Their were no slave rebellions at all during the war when most of the
white men were away at war, and only women children and a few old men,
cripples and very few fit white men were still home.  It was the best
chance they had ever had to rebel and make it stick, and no one tried
it, out of about 3.5 million slaves.

Note: running away is not rebellion, I mean get organized and take over
the place like Nat Turner tried more than a generation before.

They were much more loyal than abolitionists thought they should be.

> >   B) The master would know the results of the election and the number
> > of votes in his polling place and can count.  For those who do not
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> at least you admit the southrons were brutal master

It was slavery not playing pattycake.

However you forget that people actually lived in this system their
whole lives in relitivly small communities.   It was not a fictional
situation or a characature, it was real with real people living their
whole lives in this system.

The average slave was owned by a master with ~20.5 slaves as of 1860
(look it up in census records) and so most knew their master and
master's family personally and quite well.  In most cases grew up with
them.  A southern expression that has been corrupted by big city gangs
was brought by blacks to the inner city "home boy" or "home girl"
sometimes shortened to "holmes" or "homee" is enlightening.  I have
heard it a lot used by both blacks and whites in the rural south, it
means people you grew up with.  You can never become someone's home
boy/girl.  You either are or are not as an accident of birth.

In the pre-war south that would include your slave, or your master, or
your close neighbor, slave or master.

Yes the slave system could be quite brutal, but it was tempered by
these small close tied communities where everyone knew everyone, and
one punishment held over the heads of slaves that was feared more that
whipping by most, was being sold out of that community, and so away
from family and friends.  For whites it was being snubbed by members of
the community you grew up in.  Which is quite a threat if you grew up
in a small close community.

Anyway the real brutalty, as serious beatings and other physical
mistreatment tended to be inflicted on slaves who had already been
banished from their community by being sold, and so could not have that
threat held over their heads anymore.
ray o'hara - 08 Oct 2006 21:53 GMT
> > >    A) The methods of control of slaves were such that a large fraction
> > > of slaves could be considered brainwashed and actually loyal to their
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> do labor against both their wishes and that of their masters.  That
> does not count as running off.

most left, those who were "conscrpted" were paid, unlike those lee used to
fortify richmond.and the permission of the masters was not an issue.
150,000 served in the ranks, none were conscripted

> >they weren't as
> > loyal to ol'massa as the southrons think
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> chance they had ever had to rebel and make it stick, and no one tried
> it, out of about 3.5 million slaves.

they  knew liberation was coming. there was no need to resort to savagery,
that just shows you believe the southern stereotype.

> Note: running away is not rebellion, I mean get organized and take over
> the place like Nat Turner tried more than a generation before.
>
> They were much more loyal than abolitionists thought they should be.

not at all. the south was their home and they awaited the arrival of the
union armies before leaving

> > >   B) The master would know the results of the election and the number
> > > of votes in his polling place and can count.  For those who do not
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> It was slavery not playing pattycake.

that's likesaying thew holocaust was okay because it was genocide and not
pattycake.

> However you forget that people actually lived in this system their
> whole lives in relitivly small communities.   It was not a fictional
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> means people you grew up with.  You can never become someone's home
> boy/girl.  You either are or are not as an accident of birth.

right al, you are an expert on black urban gang culture. and knowing youe
oppressor does not make you his friend.

> In the pre-war south that would include your slave, or your master, or
> your close neighbor, slave or master.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> banished from their community by being sold, and so could not have that
> threat held over their heads anymore.

yes being sold away from their family, "sold down the river" to a short
brutal life of hard labor in carribbean cane fields was feared,
and not because they were upset about being separated from "dear ol'
massa".
Alfred Montestruc - 09 Oct 2006 13:55 GMT
> > > >    A) The methods of control of slaves were such that a large fraction
> > > > of slaves could be considered brainwashed and actually loyal to their
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> most left,

I don't think so.  Let me put some parameters on that.

I say that less than 50% of all slaves left employment  with their
former owner *of their own free will* which excludes consideration of
conscription by union or confederate forces or situations where the
owner has died or is otherwise incapable of employing them during the
war which I agree shall be considered to be over as of say 31 December
1865.

Cite me some evidence that ex-slaves *of their own volition*, not
forced either by union, or confederate armies, not turned out by their
former masters, left employment with their former master during the
specified period of time.

I understand that it may indeed be difficult to proove, or even find
statistical evidence on, all I ask is that if you are not willing to do
the work to look up the evidence is that you stop asserting as "fact"
that "most left", when you have no evidence to show.

> those who were "conscrpted" were paid,

Some may have been.  Not all. Some in Louisiana were returned to their
owners (those not buried in shallow graves) on death's door from
starvation, physical abuse and neglect.  (David C. Edmonds, ed.,
"Conduct of Federal Troops in Louisiana", Acadiana Press 1988 reprint
from a contemporary state government report. pages 116-119)

Note that this came to light after a sucessful Confederate
counter-attack found slaves in this condition where they had been
forced at gunpoint to follow the federal army in retreat (under the
contraband policy), and were denied food water and other necessities.

> unlike those lee used to
> fortify richmond.and the permission of the masters was not an issue.
> 150,000 served in the ranks, none were conscripted

That is not true.  Many of the troops that served the union were indeed
conscripts and many conscripts were indeed African Americans.  I don't
think you really think that, if you do, make an effort to find some
evidence.

> > >they weren't as
> > > loyal to ol'massa as the southrons think
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> they  knew liberation was coming.

The issue was very much in doubt for most of the war and it is absurd
to think that a slave who has little or no military education, and
whose education 99% consists of what his master has allowed him to
know, it going to feel at all confident about predicting which way a
war is going to go.

West Point trained General officers on both sides were in doubt as to
the outcome of the war well into it.

> there was no need to resort to savagery,

Well we can agree on that, and I agree that the slaves had no need to
do that, and further agree that the Federal Government did not either,
even thought it did in an absurd number of cases including mass murder
of hostages in reprisal for the unproven murder of a single man, the
execution of men for acts of political protest, the march to the sea in
Georgia, and on and on.

> that just shows you believe the southern stereotype.

More like you blindly belive all federal government propaganda about
the war and the south and do not question it at all.

> > Note: running away is not rebellion, I mean get organized and take over
> > the place like Nat Turner tried more than a generation before.
> >
> > They were much more loyal than abolitionists thought they should be.
>
> not at all. the south was their home,

True.

> and they awaited the arrival of the
> union armies before leaving.

Not really.  Again I cite the lack of military education and the fact
that the Federal government made no statements to the effect of freeing
slaves till the emancipation proclamation and then no sudden changes in
slave behavior were seen.

> > > >   B) The master would know the results of the election and the number
> > > > of votes in his polling place and can count.  For those who do not
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> that's likesaying thew holocaust was okay because it was genocide and not
> pattycake.

I did not ever say it was "OK" or anything equivelent, or even close to
it.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.  I am my own man, I am not a
characature or strawman.

> > However you forget that people actually lived in this system their
> > whole lives in relitivly small communities.   It was not a fictional
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> right al, you are an expert on black urban gang culture.

I would not say that.  I have had some experiance with it having lived
for about three years in New Orleans in the mid 1980s in an area of the
city where they (Black street gangs) were strong in that time period (I
was a very poor college student living in an area of New Orleans that
was quite poor and 80% + black at the time, that was deep underwater
soon after Katrina [near the corner of Elysian Fields and Treasure
streets], I was in the process of earning my BS in Mechanical
Engineering at UNO).  But I am not an "expert" on them.  I do know a
lot about southern culture from having studied it, and personally
experianced it.

The language usage is just a factual observation that you can check if
you want.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=homeboy

---------quote
Originally used among transplanted African-Americans with Southern
roots to refer to and aid in the assimilation of someone who might have
directly migrated from a common Southern home town or is otherwise well
known to the person using the term.

Used to establish a mutual relationship between the invidividual using
the term, the person described by it, and a third person.

That's my homeboy Carl.
---------------end quote

>and knowing youre
> oppressor does not make you his friend.

Nor does it make him your enemy.

"Oppressor" is a matter of opinion of the person who might or might not
feel oppressed, not of some other person who is observing from hundreds
or thousands of miles away, and hundreds of years in time.

Some of the black persons did not feel oppressed by the specific whites
that owned them, and did in fact feel friendship and even love.

Witness that Sally Hemings could legally leave Mr. Jefferson in Paris,
and did not (slavery was not legal in France).

-------snip
ray o'hara - 09 Oct 2006 18:12 GMT
> > most left,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> war which I agree shall be considered to be over as of say 31 December
> 1865.

as union armies came near the blacks flocked to them. the emancipation
proclamation freed them and they took advantage of it.
and in cases where the slaves stayed home it was because the owners fled.
union columns were folowed by thousands of freedmen.
the fact that the union was able to RECRUIT 150,000+ blacks.from the south
shows there were many many freedmen available.

> Cite me some evidence that ex-slaves *of their own volition*, not
> forced either by union, or confederate armies, not turned out by their
> former masters, left employment with their former master during the
> specified period of time.

the union didn't conduct raids to gather slaves or steal them from
plantations.
if you ever read any civil war history you'd know that.
grant set up a system of employment to deal with all the freedmen who came
into his lines. you can read about it in catton's books on grant

> I understand that it may indeed be difficult to proove, or even find
> statistical evidence on, all I ask is that if you are not willing to do
> the work to look up the evidence is that you stop asserting as "fact"
> that "most left", when you have no evidence to show.

most did, they trailed the union armies, sherman had thousands following him
on his march to the sea.
and even those who stayed home never took any orders from "ol massa"
again.

> > those who were "conscrpted" were paid,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> "Conduct of Federal Troops in Louisiana", Acadiana Press 1988 reprint
> from a contemporary state government report. pages 116-119)

after  the emancipation proclamation they no longer belonged to their
"owners"  ben butler when he was in command in new orleans never did such a
thing.
slaves were conscripted and not paid and then returned to their "owners"
only by southern commanders.

> Note that this came to light after a sucessful Confederate
> counter-attack found slaves in this condition where they had been
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> think you really think that, if you do, make an effort to find some
> evidence.

the union did not draft negro troops, they were all volunteers. only white
were cdrafted.
"On July 17, 1862, Congress passed two acts allowing the enlistment of
African Americans",
     In actual numbers, African American soldiers comprised 10% of the
entire Union Army. Losses among African Americans were high, and from all
reported casualties, approximately one-third of all African Americans
enrolled in the military lost their lives during the Civil War.

> > > >they weren't as
> > > > loyal to ol'massa as the southrons think
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> know, it going to feel at all confident about predicting which way a
> war is going to go.

they had faith in their deliverence al. when union armies came by they took
the oppurtunity to heelp themselves.
blavks had a better idea of what was going on than we like to imagine.

> West Point trained General officers on both sides were in doubt as to
> the outcome of the war well into it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> execution of men for acts of political protest, the march to the sea in
> Georgia, and on and on.

mass murder? lets not drift in to fantasy al. mass murder was forrest at
fort pillow and quantrill at lawrence kansas.  it was the south that
indulged in systematic mass murder

> > that just shows you believe the southern stereotype.
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> slaves till the emancipation proclamation and then no sudden changes in
> slave behavior were seen.

the EP  was in 62 the war lasted until 65.
and slaves were fleeing from the beginning as ben butlers "contrabands"
declration and freemonts declaration in st louis showed well before the EP
which by the way was rather early in the war. prior to the EP the union
forces weren't deep enough into the south for them to have any effects
anyway

> > > > >   B) The master would know the results of the election and the number
> > > > > of votes in his polling place and can count.  For those who do not
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Please stop putting words in my mouth.  I am my own man, I am not a
> characature or strawman.

al all you do is defend the CSA , if  you defend them then you defend their
cause and actions.
Alfred Montestruc - 10 Oct 2006 12:51 GMT
> > > most left,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> the fact that the union was able to RECRUIT 150,000+ blacks.from the south
> shows there were many many freedmen available.

150,000 (the number you claim and seem to act as if is a BIG NUMBER!!)
divided by 3,500,000 (the approximate population of slaves) is 4.28%
even if you are off by a factor of 10, then you are not at 50%.

Why do.you assert it is "most" when your own numbers show it was on the
order of 5%?

> > Cite me some evidence that ex-slaves *of their own volition*, not
> > forced either by union, or confederate armies, not turned out by their
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the union didn't conduct raids to gather slaves or steal them from
> plantations.

Yes they did.  That was part of the contraband policy and was used as a
mean of economic warfare. They know damn well that slaves left in
confederate hands could be used to dig trenches or other military work
that could kill troops.  Your assertion makes no military sense. Of
course they conducted raids to gather and "steal" slaves from
confederates.

> if you ever read any civil war history you'd know that.
> grant set up a system of employment to deal with all the freedmen who came
> into his lines. you can read about it in catton's books on grant

Which does not mean that conscription did not happen.

> > I understand that it may indeed be difficult to proove, or even find
> > statistical evidence on, all I ask is that if you are not willing to do
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> and even those who stayed home never took any orders from "ol massa"
>  again.

And again you cite no evidence to support your broad and sweeping
claims at all.  That General Grant may or may not have had an
employment system for freedmen does not prove that no union troops ever
conscripted slaves for work.

> > > those who were "conscrpted" were paid,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> "owners"  ben butler when he was in command in new orleans never did such a
> thing.

The State of Louisiana says otherwise.

> slaves were conscripted and not paid and then returned to their "owners"
> only by southern commanders.
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>
> mass murder?

I documented it in other posts where a union commander executed a large
number of prisoners in reprisal for the dissapearance of a union
informer in Missouri.  No one has ever proven what happend to that man.
ray o'hara - 10 Oct 2006 15:54 GMT
> > > > most left,
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> divided by 3,500,000 (the approximate population of slaves) is 4.28%
> even if you are off by a factor of 10, then you are not at 50%.

actuall;y the number is closer to 180,000. seeing as women , children and
old men are not militarily usefull it is a big number.

> Why do.you assert it is "most" when your own numbers show it was on the
> order of 5%?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> course they conducted raids to gather and "steal" slaves from
> confederates.

find any accounts of union troops went on slave raids?

> > if you ever read any civil war history you'd know that.
> > grant set up a system of employment to deal with all the freedmen who came
> > into his lines. you can read about it in catton's books on grant
>
> Which does not mean that conscription did not happen.

find any account that it did.  you made a positive statement find proof

> > > I understand that it may indeed be difficult to proove, or even find
> > > statistical evidence on, all I ask is that if you are not willing to do
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> employment system for freedmen does not prove that no union troops ever
> conscripted slaves for work.

prove they did, you just make assertions but never back them up.

> > > > those who were "conscrpted" were paid,
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> The State of Louisiana says otherwise.

the state of louisiana is trying to cover their a.ses. they can make any
false claim they like.
S Witmer - 10 Oct 2006 20:45 GMT
> > > > most left,
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Why do.you assert it is "most" when your own numbers show it was on the
> order of 5%?

That was only able-bodied males who enlisted.  It does not include
women, children, old men, or men with infirmities that would keep the
out of the military.  Nor does it count those who worked in a civilian
capacity as teamsters, cooks, manual laborers and similar such jobs for
the Union forces.  Add all those in the and number would go up very
substantially.

Heck, Al, you assert that the Confederacy was widely supported in the
south - how about showing us that more than 50% of the CSA population
served in the CSA army?  Heck, show us that more than 50% of the
military age males served, for that matter.

Also bear in mind that even to the end of the war there were areas of
the south that the north had not reached yet, and some slaveowners took
great pains to move their slaves away from areas where they might be
tempted to flee to Union lines.

<snip>

> > > Cite me some evidence that ex-slaves *of their own volition*, not
> > > forced either by union, or confederate armies, not turned out by their
> > > former masters, left employment with their former master during the
> > > specified period of time.

The swarms of fleeing slaves that followed the Union armies wherever
they went in the south.  The contraband camps that had to be set up to
maintain them.  The regiments made up of volunteer ex-slaves.  There
are numerous mentions of contrabands fleeing into Union lines in the OR
and soldier letters.
jfe@ams.org - 10 Oct 2006 12:51 GMT
> Cite me some evidence that ex-slaves *of their own volition*, not
> forced either by union, or confederate armies, not turned out by their
> former masters, left employment with their former master during the
> specified period of time.

I would recommend John Eaton's memoir, "Lincoln, Grant, and
the Freedmen."  Eaton was chaplain of an Ohio regiment, and
Grant put him in charge of the large number of runaways who
were flocking to Union lines in North Mississippi.  Extrapolating
from these numbers to the similar experiences in Louisiana,
Virginia, Alabama, and elsewhere, I'd say a solid case exists
that large numbers of blacks ran away.

JFE
Alfred Montestruc - 10 Oct 2006 20:45 GMT
> > Cite me some evidence that ex-slaves *of their own volition*, not
> > forced either by union, or confederate armies, not turned out by their
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Virginia, Alabama, and elsewhere, I'd say a solid case exists
> that large numbers of blacks ran away.

You snipped a rather critical part of my post.  Mr. O'Hara claims it
was more than half.  I do not at all dispute that many slaves did
indeed run away to the union army.  What I dispute is his claim that
more than half of all slaves left employment at their master's farm
during the war of their own free will, not coerced by anyone.  That is
I think you can see a rather extream claim, when this was for them the
only home they had ever known and they were poor and ignorant and had
few skills other than those useful to their masters, and the whole
population consisted of mixture that included a lot of older folks, and
children and women with small children.

I might be willing to admit that probably half or more of the young men
with no children ran off, but parents with small kids and had means of
feeding them when staying with the master?  That is a big risk to take.
Now I am sure some of them did, but more than half of the population?

The evidence he presented was for less than 5%.
ray o'hara - 10 Oct 2006 23:45 GMT
> > > Cite me some evidence that ex-slaves *of their own volition*, not
> > > forced either by union, or confederate armies, not turned out by their
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> population consisted of mixture that included a lot of older folks, and
> children and women with small children.

i said slaves flocked to union troops when they came into the areas. and
they did. and using the word employed to describe the master/slave
relationship is wrong

> I might be willing to admit that probably half or more of the young men
> with no children ran off, but parents with small kids and had means of
> feeding them when staying with the master?  That is a big risk to take.
>  Now I am sure some of them did, but more than half of the population?

master was the first to flee when the union came near.
Gregory E. Garland - 07 Oct 2006 14:21 GMT
> Political unions forced on people against their will are not worth
> preserving.

Somehow this seems to entirely miss every single historical fact that
led up to the civil war. If the majority in an existing political union
must of some "moral" necessity aquiesce to the armed and violent
reaction of a dissident minority does the entire idea of a "political
union" have any meaning at all?!?
ray o'hara - 07 Oct 2006 21:40 GMT
> > Political unions forced on people against their will are not worth
> > preserving.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> reaction of a dissident minority does the entire idea of a "political
> union" have any meaning at all?!?

Well according to Al its okay to threaten  armed insurrection and criminal
to oppose it.
Alfred Montestruc - 08 Oct 2006 03:13 GMT
> > Political unions forced on people against their will are not worth
> > preserving.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> must of some "moral" necessity aquiesce to the armed and violent
> reaction of a dissident minority

That live in a distinct contiguious geographic region and are the vast
majority of citizens in that region?

Who is missing historical facts???

>does the entire idea of a "political
> union" have any meaning at all?!?
Gregory E. Garland - 08 Oct 2006 12:53 GMT
>> > Political unions forced on people against their will are not worth
>> > preserving.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Who is missing historical facts???

You are. (1) The only 'distinction' of that geographic region was
slavery. (2) The people of that geographic region were already
part of a political union which the had natural right (supported by
the entire recorded history of civilization) to expect loyalty to whole
sovereign nation.

>>does the entire idea of a "political
>> union" have any meaning at all?!?
Alfred Montestruc - 09 Oct 2006 12:12 GMT
> >> > Political unions forced on people against their will are not worth
> >> > preserving.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> You are. (1) The only 'distinction' of that geographic region was
> slavery.

No their is also the desire of the citizens of those states to
politically unite.  See also my reply to scribe.

> (2) The people of that geographic region were already
> part of a political union which the had natural right (supported by
> the entire recorded history of civilization) to expect loyalty to whole
> sovereign nation.

You and I profoundly disagree on almost every single  idea in the
statement you made above and on many of the underlying ideas.
Gregory E. Garland - 09 Oct 2006 13:55 GMT
>> >> > Political unions forced on people against their will are not worth
>> >> > preserving.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> No their is also the desire of the citizens of those states to
> politically unite.  See also my reply to scribe.

Their desire to politically unite existed only as a consequence of
their desire to protect and expand slavery. Treating it as independent
of slavery, or that the reason for said desire is irrelevant, is
disengenious
at best.

>> (2) The people of that geographic region were already
>> part of a political union which the had natural right (supported by
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> You and I profoundly disagree on almost every single  idea in the
> statement you made above and on many of the underlying ideas.
scribe7716 - 08 Oct 2006 17:35 GMT
> > Somehow this seems to entirely miss every single historical fact that
> > led up to the civil war. If the majority in an existing political union
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That live in a distinct contiguious geographic region and are the vast
> majority of citizens in that region?

Ah yes, there's nothing quite so distinct as Tidewater Virginia and the
Ozark Mountains of northern Arkansas.
Rich Rostrom - 09 Oct 2006 12:01 GMT
>Ah yes, there's nothing quite so distinct as Tidewater Virginia and the
>Ozark Mountains of northern Arkansas.

And the Staked Plains of Texas, and the swamps of Florida,
and the Kentucky bluegrass country, and the Yazoo Delta
of Mississippi, and the hills of east Tennessee...
| He had a shorter,  more scraggly, and even less    |
| flattering beard than Yassir Arafat, and Escalante |
| never conceived that such a thing was possible.    |
|  -- William Goldman, _Heat_                        |
Alfred Montestruc - 09 Oct 2006 12:01 GMT
> > > Somehow this seems to entirely miss every single historical fact that
> > > led up to the civil war. If the majority in an existing political union
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Ah yes, there's nothing quite so distinct as Tidewater Virginia and the
> Ozark Mountains of northern Arkansas.

All of the states that seceeded or attempted to seceed bordered on
other states that seceeded, and one could walk crossing only rivers
from one end of the seceeding states to the other  ---- contiguious
thus distinctly contigiuous.

If say Maine, Texas and Florida wanted to seceed together and form an
independent federal government then they would not be a distinct
contigious.region.

OK ?  Understand?  Not distinct geographic regions with simaler
geology, but distinct contiguious region.  I could give a flip about
whether the geology or character of the land was simaler as long as it
was contiguious with a majority of citizens who wanted to unite
politically.

Further each state that sucessfully seceeded (this would exclude
Missouri for example) had a large working political majority in favor
of secession.
scribe7716 - 09 Oct 2006 18:35 GMT
> > > > Somehow this seems to entirely miss every single historical fact that
> > > > led up to the civil war. If the majority in an existing political union
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> from one end of the seceeding states to the other  ---- contiguious
> thus distinctly contigiuous.

And when the secession bug bit South Carolina 32 of the 33 United
States -- minus California -- were contiguous.

> If say Maine, Texas and Florida wanted to seceed together and form an
> independent federal government then they would not be a distinct
> contigious.region.

> OK ?  Understand?  Not distinct geographic regions with simaler
> geology, but distinct contiguious region.  I could give a flip about
> whether the geology or character of the land was simaler as long as it
> was contiguious with a majority of citizens who wanted to unite
> politically.

So you say that secession and confederation by contiguous states was
right and proper but secession and confederation by noncontiguous
states would not be be acceptable?

By the way, there were differences between Tidewater Virginia and
northern Arkansas beyond and more important than those of "geology or
character of the land."  The economies, the character of the people,
the degree of devotion to slavery, etc., etc.

> Further each state that sucessfully seceeded (this would exclude
> Missouri for example) had a large working political majority in favor
> of secession.

Thought you were leary of majority rule democracy.  How is it that
majority rule is okay when its leads to disunion but bad when it
supports the union?  Is it okay for the majority in Arkansas to force
the majority in northern Arkansas out of their country?  Is it okay for
a majority to dragoon Union-loyal men into an army that wars against
their country?
Alfred Montestruc - 10 Oct 2006 12:51 GMT
> > > > > Somehow this seems to entirely miss every single historical fact that
> > > > > led up to the civil war. If the majority in an existing political union
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> right and proper but secession and confederation by noncontiguous
> states would not be be acceptable?

No.   That a majority of the citizens of a contiguious region would
have a legitimate right to seceed as a group, taking the land they
lived in with them, but not a minority even if that minority is larger
than the first minority but is not a majority anywhere, would have no
such right.

So for example Greens, Socialists and Libertarians are in no state a
majority, and so would not have a leg to stand to seceed with any
state, but Democrats are a large majority in the New England states and
would in those states.

Also  I am saying that formation of a new federal government by
non-contiguious states would not be very practical.  So if Maine, Texas
and Florida wanted to seceed, them forming a seperate federal
government would be a bit silly, not a reason to stop them, but not a
very practical idea.

> By the way, there were differences between Tidewater Virginia and
> northern Arkansas beyond and more important than those of "geology or
> character of the land."  The economies, the character of the people,
> the degree of devotion to slavery, etc., etc.

Yes I am aware of that.  But regardless they seceeded together.

> > Further each state that sucessfully seceeded (this would exclude
> > Missouri for example) had a large working political majority in favor
> > of secession.
>
> Thought you were leary of majority rule democracy.

I favor rule of law which respects individual rights.  Amoung those
rights would be the right no to have to live under a government you
don't like.

>  How is it that
> majority rule is okay when its leads to disunion but bad when it
> supports the union?

Lincoln was elected without any majority, and no majority voted in
support of the use of war to force states to stay in the union.  So you
have no "majority" in favor of use of force to make states stay in the
union.

Yes Lincoln was elected legally, but for you to assert that a
"majority" of citizens of the USA supported "the union" with your
unstated but strong implication that this "majority" voted for the use
of war as a means of forcing states to stay in it against the explicit
vote of the citizens of those states, is more than a bit of a reach.
It strikes me as a very dishonest sort of argument.

Your majority was in fact not one.

> Is it okay for the majority in Arkansas to force
> the majority in northern Arkansas out of their country?

Not in the ideal, but neither would this northern Arkansas minority
have the right to force the southern majority to stay in the union.  So
they have a choice of going along with it, or splitting off.  However
once the fur starts to fly, it becomes a matter of practical military
necessity, and as we both know Mr. Lincoln was not willing to negociate
at all on the issue of secession, so this lead to war.

>  Is it okay for
> a majority to dragoon Union-loyal men into an army that wars against
> their country?

I am opposed to any draft.  If your governmnt is not good enought that
men will not volinteer to defend it, it has no right to exist.  That
would in this case apply to both the north and south.

Now I would not have a problem with the tying of legal rights to
military service, like the right to vote, and tax breaks as so on.
Heinlen's idea expressed in the book "Starship Troopers" (not the movie
that does not follow the book much at all) was rather thoughtful and
interesting.  A republic where only veterans get to vote, run for
public office or work in the civil service, and only after they are out
of the military, but military pay was quite low.
HankC - 06 Oct 2006 15:24 GMT
[snip]

> > Perhaps, but what was a 'full' measure in 1865?
>
> I'd rather think about 1860 when you could save 620,000 lives by
> avoiding the war, and could set the stage for the end of slavery.

Excellent 20-20 hindsight.

Now who in 1860 in the North was forecasting a bloodbath or in the
South was willing  to 'set the stage' for the end of slavery?

[snip]

> Ok compair the end of slavery in the British Empire or Brazil with that
> in the USA.

Others in the thread have discussed these economic apples and societal
oranges...

HankC
Alfred Montestruc - 06 Oct 2006 22:03 GMT
> [snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Now who in 1860 in the North was forecasting a bloodbath

Military officers with a West Point education like Winfield Scott who
came up with the plan that eventually was used (Anaconda).  Nobody
asked him IIRC to give a casualty estimate or cost estimate.  In other
words people who ought to know did have an idea of the cost and were
not asked to give an order of magnitude estimate of the costs of the
war.

Perhaps it might have made the union stop and think for a minute, but
probably not.

> or in the
> South was willing  to 'set the stage' for the end of slavery?

If you read what I said you would know that the south did not have to
be at all willing to play.  You just get northern abolitionists to
start thinking boycott of all slave made products and spread this idea
to Europe.

> [snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Others in the thread have discussed these economic apples and societal
> oranges...

With enormous bias in favor of their Sainted Lincoln, rather than
seeing him for the pooch screw king he really was.
ray o'hara - 06 Oct 2006 23:24 GMT
> > [snip]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> not asked to give an order of magnitude estimate of the costs of the
> war.

actually scott said the south was making as mistake, and that the north
would prevail.
that the hot blooded enthusiasm would fail before the slow burning fury of
the north.

> Perhaps it might have made the union stop and think for a minute, but
> probably not.

> > or in the
> > South was willing  to 'set the stage' for the end of slavery?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> start thinking boycott of all slave made products and spread this idea
> to Europe.

and the south could have just done the right thing. why is it that in all
your scenarios the criminal south has to do nothing to set things right?
the south committed all the crimes, yeyt you drfrnd them.

> > [snip]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> With enormous bias in favor of their Sainted Lincoln, rather than
> seeing him for the pooch screw king he really was.

so lincoln uphulding the constitution is wrong and jeff davis violating it
at every turn is a great hero.
Alfred Montestruc - 07 Oct 2006 21:23 GMT
> > > [snip]
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> actually scott said the south was making as mistake, and that the north
> would prevail.

So?

>  that the hot blooded enthusiasm would fail before the slow burning fury of
> the north.

So?  Neither is in opposition to what I said about the long term costly
nature of the war.

> > Perhaps it might have made the union stop and think for a minute, but
> > probably not.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> >
> and the south could have just done the right thing.

The south would act in their economic interest.

---------------snip
ray o'hara - 08 Oct 2006 00:30 GMT
> > and the south could have just done the right thing.
>
> The south would act in their economic interest.

perceived self-interest of one segment of the south.
as it turned out it wasn't in their best interest.
and i'm glad you have acknowledged that the south put money considerations
ahead of morality, loyalty or legality.
Alfred Montestruc - 08 Oct 2006 05:11 GMT
> > > and the south could have just done the right thing.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and i'm glad you have acknowledged that the south put money considerations
> ahead of morality, loyalty or legality.

Your thinking that your opinion of what is legally or morally right
should govern what other people think is legally or morally right is a
real problem in getting along with others.  It is a most unrealistic
view of the world.

Expecting others to hold the same worldview that you do is pretty darn
close to insanity, especially when they are raised in a very different
culture from you.  Witness the vast cultural divide between modern Arab
muslims and modern Americans.

It is dangerous for you to hold them in their own culture to our
standards of behavior, or for them to hold us to their standards of
behavior in our society.  That is one of things that drives modern
muslim extreamist terrorism, people like Bin Ladin holding westerners
to their moral standards.

Point of fact.  Most southerners of that period would say much the same
of yankees as you said of them.  Putting money considerations ahead of
moral or legal ones in holding that the north had the right to tax the
south, and control southern lands for a variety of purposes (such as
maintaining forts)  even though the south wanted out of the political
union is legitimatly a violation of the principles of the American
Revolution, and the declaration of independence.
ray o'hara - 08 Oct 2006 21:53 GMT
> > > > and the south could have just done the right thing.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> real problem in getting along with others.  It is a most unrealistic
> view of the world.

obeying the law and loyalty to ones country arer universally seens as moral
positions, law-breaking and treason are usually not.

> Expecting others to hold the same worldview that you do is pretty darn
> close to insanity, especially when they are raised in a very different
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> muslim extreamist terrorism, people like Bin Ladin holding westerners
> to their moral standards.

and yet both see obeying the law and loyalty as being moral.
the south and the north were also much closer than arabs and americans.
your analogies get more far-fetched with every post al.

> Point of fact.  Most southerners of that period would say much the same
> of yankees as you said of them.  Putting money considerations ahead of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> union is legitimatly a violation of the principles of the American
> Revolution, and the declaration of independence.

the north didn't tax the south, both were taxed equally by the central
government, a government in which the south was a full partner in ad with
the 3/5ths rule were over-represented because those 3/5th people were not
considered citizens nor allowed  to vote.
Alfred Montestruc - 09 Oct 2006 13:55 GMT
> > > > > and the south could have just done the right thing.
> > > >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> obeying the law and loyalty to ones country arer universally seens as moral
> positions, law-breaking and treason are usually not.

What constitutes law breaking and what constitutes treason are most
emphatically not universal.

> > Expecting others to hold the same worldview that you do is pretty darn
> > close to insanity, especially when they are raised in a very different
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> and yet both see obeying the law and loyalty as being moral.

Yes I agree Lincoln should have followed the law, and been loyal to all
the people of the united states even those who wanted out of that
political union, and to the principles of the revolution as expressed
in the declaration of independence that rights and power flow from the
people, not from the government, and that if the people of a region of
a nation desire to be free of that national government that they have
the right to free themselves of it.

Nothing was or is disloyal about wanting out of a political union.   It
is very disloyal of a government that is supposed to be an agent of the
people to kill vast numbers of those people for them wanting to be shut
of it.

Glad we agree.
ray o'hara - 10 Oct 2006 12:51 GMT
\>
> Yes I agree Lincoln should have followed the law, and been loyal to all
> the people of the united states even those who wanted out of that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a nation desire to be free of that national government that they have
> the right to free themselves of it.

lincoln did follow the law, thestated he was to preserve and protect the
union.
and no people don't have the right to just declare themselve free from laws
they don't like.
there were legl remadies to follow that thwy ignored

> Nothing was or is disloyal about wanting out of a political union.   It
> is very disloyal of a government that is supposed to be an agent of the
> people to kill vast numbers of those people for them wanting to be shut
> of it.
>
> Glad we agree.

we agree you are wrong.
it is disloyal to reject the laws and try to kill those charged with
uphol;ding them. and it is immoral from the secessionists to cause the
deaths of 620,000
just to pretect their desire to enslave others.
davis and the rest thought a war in which they forced the poor to fight was
the way to protect their"property" even though they had been given every
assurance that theit "property" was not going to be taken.
HankC - 09 Oct 2006 18:12 GMT
> Military officers with a West Point education like Winfield Scott who
> came up with the plan that eventually was used (Anaconda).  Nobody
> asked him IIRC to give a casualty estimate or cost estimate.  In other
> words people who ought to know did have an idea of the cost and were
> not asked to give an order of magnitude estimate of the costs of the
> war.

Are you saying that Scott privately predicted a casualty estimate?

He was adamant for defending the US forts and facilities in Texas,
Florida. Georgia, South Carolina and the other southern states...

> Perhaps it might have made the union stop and think for a minute, but
> probably not.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> start thinking boycott of all slave made products and spread this idea
> to Europe.

Who were the mid-19th century leaders of this boycott attempt?

I do not see a Northern boycott of Southern cotton leading the South to
give up slavery. The tea boycott prior to the Revolution did not help
British-American relations.

HankC
Alfred Montestruc - 10 Oct 2006 12:51 GMT
> > Military officers with a West Point education like Winfield Scott who
> > came up with the plan that eventually was used (Anaconda).  Nobody
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Are you saying that Scott privately predicted a casualty estimate?

No.  I am saying that he could have, and might have.  Other officers
might as well.

> He was adamant for defending the US forts and facilities in Texas,
> Florida. Georgia, South Carolina and the other southern states...

That would have made more sense if trying to minimise the cost of the
war.  If one could put down the "rebellion" quickly before they got
well organized, then the cost of the war would be much lower.  This is
one of the things I have against the federal government's handleing of
this situation, the proverbial messing around for many months with no
clear and specific actions taken to make very, very clear that
secession would be treated as treason (which they did not do), could
have prevented the war.

Letting the secessionists go on as long as they did with no concrete
action to stop them taken was the equal of saying secession was legal.
Which in my opinion it was, but from a law enforcement perspective,
letting folks publicly break what you the law enforcement officer
consider to be the correct interpretation of the law for a long time,
then suddenly starting to enforce it is both unfair, and can get
bloody.

If the federal government was going to take the position that
eventually it did that secession was treason, then they needed to be
sending a party of federal marshals to arrest legislators in South
Carolina as soon as they were sure that was what was contimplated in
November or December of 1860, not calling up thousands of of troops in
April 1861.

My position is that by the time Lincoln took office it was too late to
do anything of the kind.

> > Perhaps it might have made the union stop and think for a minute, but
> > probably not.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Who were the mid-19th century leaders of this boycott attempt?

I never said their was one.

> I do not see a Northern boycott of Southern cotton leading the South to
> give up slavery.

Northern USA only I would agree. That combined with a British boycott
and one or two other major European nations and the profitability of
slave grown southern cotton would plummit.  Then if they boycott
leaders made a practice of certification of cotton grown by free labor
from the south, the value of slave labor would plummit.

Some violence might be seen between free farmers and slave ones, but in
the end this is good for driving a wedge between free farmers and slave
owning farmers.  The slave owners need the free farmers for a variety
of military and militia activities, especially escaped slave patrols,
far more than the free farmers need the slave owners.

Division and conquest, without having a large scale war in which
hundreds of thousands die.  Note that IMHO it could have been much
worse than it was.  Had Lee and other southern military leaders opted
for continuation of the war via unconventional means it could have
gotten very ugly.  Imagine a US Ireland.  The casualties and cost over
the very long term could have gotten huge.

Some have said this would not happen because slave owners were such a
minority, but by this time the common southern white man had lost a lot
of friends and kin, and was really angry about it.  Such a "low
intensity conflict" could have gone on to this day, or until the
northern public got tired of it, and based on history I expect that by
the mid 1870s they would have done almost anything to be shut of this
war, including allowing secession.

>The tea boycott prior to the Revolution did not help
> British-American relations.

Depends on what you mean by help.  It did divide public opinion in the
UK and gain allies of of a sort in the UK (merchants that were hurt by
the boycott).
ray o'hara - 10 Oct 2006 15:54 GMT
> > > Military officers with a West Point education like Winfield Scott who
> > > came up with the plan that eventually was used (Anaconda).  Nobody
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> No.  I am saying that he could have, and might have.  Other officers
> might as well.

could? might?

> > He was adamant for defending the US forts and facilities in Texas,
> > Florida. Georgia, South Carolina and the other southern states...
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> secession would be treated as treason (which they did not do), could
> have prevented the war.

they needed to get organized too. the regular army was small and scattered
around the frontier.
just abandoning its duties protecting homesteaders was dangerouse, and it
would have tecken quite a while to collect it into a mass.
the north moved when it could

> Letting the secessionists go on as long as they did with no concrete
> action to stop them taken was the equal of saying secession was legal.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> November or December of 1860, not calling up thousands of of troops in
> April 1861.

as the south had raide thousands of troops before they seceded all a party
of marshall would have done is get massacred.

> My position is that by the time Lincoln took office it was too late to
> do anything of the kind.

that was buchanan's fault, yet you lve to blame lincoln.

> > > Perhaps it might have made the union stop and think for a minute, but
> > > probably not.
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> UK and gain allies of of a sort in the UK (merchants that were hurt by
> the boycott).

and if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their a.ses.
HankC - 10 Oct 2006 23:45 GMT
> > > Military officers with a West Point education like Winfield Scott who
> > > came up with the plan that eventually was used (Anaconda).  Nobody
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> No.  I am saying that he could have, and might have.  Other officers
> might as well.

Perhaps so, but none did. Their entire military experience and history
was in wars with dozens or hundreds of casualties, not thousands or
tens of thousands.

Regardless, what military man left a letter, diary, journal or other
clue that they conceived of hundreds of thousands of killed? Putting
words in person's mouths is fiction, not history.

[snip]

> Division and conquest, without having a large scale war in which
> hundreds of thousands die.  Note that IMHO it could have been much
> worse than it was.  Had Lee and other southern military leaders opted
> for continuation of the war via unconventional means it could have
> gotten very ugly.  Imagine a US Ireland.  The casualties and cost over
> the very long term could have gotten huge.

Losing 620,000 lives from 1861-1865 overshadows the 10,000 - 30,000
lives lost from 1865-1877. Reconstruction was certainly a very
one-sided 'continuation of the war via unconventional means'. That
number of casualties is large-scale compared to the Revolution, War of
1812 and the war with Mexico.

HankC
wjyoung - 02 Oct 2006 00:23 GMT
>>>>>Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
>>>>>out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
> No public trial, no warrent, no charges even.  Just like the bunch of
> fascists the Republicans were.

Thanks, that's a good point.  Only Congress can violate the First
Amendment.  I assumed the reference made by the previous poster to
Lincoln's actions were toward the execution of law being as the
guarantee of "due process of law" means that there actually be a law to
execute.
David Goldberg - 08 Oct 2006 22:41 GMT
> Common on these chat groups is the claim that not only was secession
> legal, but that this fact was so obvious that no one really disputed it
> in 1860-61 nor later. And those who opposed secession were close to
> being criminal in their opposition.

The Civil War was actually a failed revolution, and when you're fighting a
revolution it doesn't matter whether your actions are legal according to the
laws of the government you are trying to flee.

Was it legal for Washington to fight a war against the British?

--
Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.
scribe7716 - 09 Oct 2006 18:12 GMT
> The Civil War was actually a failed revolution, and when you're fighting a
> revolution it doesn't matter whether your actions are legal according to the
> laws of the government you are trying to flee.
>
> Was it legal for Washington to fight a war against the British?

Unlike most of the secesh and their latter day apologists, our Founders
knew well that they were rebels, and they did not try to cloak their
actions with some pretense of black letter legality.  Their appeal was
to natural law not to some Calhounian balderdash.
 
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