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The Illegality of Secession

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Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 24 Sep 2006 13:41 GMT
Common on these chat groups is the claim that not only was secession
legal, but that this fact was so obvious that no one really disputed it
in 1860-61 nor later. And those who opposed secession were close to
being criminal in their opposition.

A couple of recent quotes on this site illustrate the claim:

"Secession was never illegal, nor unconstitutional under a reasonable
interpritation. Defending oneself against a federal government hell
bent on breaking the law is not illegal either."

"What would you have done in his shoes presuming you felt secession
was legal, and in this case moral and proper. Let the USA continue to
keep armed troops in control of a fort on your sovereign territory,
with artillery that could be used to bombard a major city without even
bothering to recognize you?"

The claim is false on two points:

First those making it in 1860-61 and as well as in Y2K ignore the fact
that any arguments in favor of secession were and are instantly
countered with equally valid and reasoned arguments against the
proposition. While the pro-secessionists make good points, they seem to
miss the fact that the pro-unionists also make good points.

Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
than there were those who believed it to be legal. This is not to deny
that secession had - and has -its arguments. Rather it is to point
out that the Unionists also had their good points.

Given that neither side had a monopoly on the legality/illegality of
secession, we can turn to the second point:

How had secession or the threat of secession been handled previously in
American history?

Although not strictly speaking secessionists, the farmers involved in
the 1894 Whiskey Rebellion threatened the central government and the
Washington Administration reacted quickly, declaring the tax resisters
to be insurrectionists, and raising a military force to put down the
insurrection.

The military force was led, BTW, by a Revolutionary war general named
Light Horse Harry Lee. Hmm. I am sure, with that sort of heritage, any
son of Light Horse Harry would have supported the government in 1861.

Under President Jefferson, Aaron Burr may or may not have tried to
split off the western territories from the United States. Jefferson
reacted much as Washington had, arresting Burr and trying him for
treason. Chief Justice Marshall, acting as a district court judge (a la
Taney in Merryman), set such a high standard for treason convictions
that not only was Burr not convicted but since then the number of those
even tried to for treason, let alone convicted, can be counted on the
fingers of one's hands. However, Jefferson's quick action prevented
Burr from attempting any secession.

Andrew Jackson faced a more overt effort at secession with South
Carolina and we know what he thought of the idea. It is no accident
that in 1860-61, the Jacksonians were adamant that secession was not
permissible Taney may not have liked Lincoln but he upheld the
government in the Prize Cases. Sam Houston was booted out as Texas
governor because he opposed his state's secession. Andrew Johnson was
the only senator from a Confederate state to continue his duties in
Washington.

In 1840, during the Gag Rule fight over anti-slavery petitions in the
House of Representatives, John Quincy Adams, the member from Braintree,
offered a petition from some of his constituents, calling for the
dissolution of the Union because of the stain of slavery.

The Southern members reacted with fury. Although many had themselves
threatened secession if the Yankees did not support slavery and close
down the abolitionists, evidently it was not permissible for a
Northerner to do the same. The slave state representatives chose Thomas
Marshall, of Kentucky, nephew of the late chief justice, to bring
forward a motion of censure:

"Whereas, the Federal Constitution is a permanent form of Gov¬ernment
and of perpetual obligation, until altered or modified in the mode
pointed out by that instrument, and the members of this House, deriving
their political character and powers from the same, are sworn to
support it, and the dissolution of the Union necessarily implies the
destruction of that instrument, the overthrow of the American
Repub¬lic, and the extinction of our national existence: A
proposition, there¬fore, to the Representatives of the people, to
dissolve the organic law framed by their constituents, and to support
which they are com¬manded by those constituents to be sworn, before
they can enter upon the execution of the political powers created by
it, and entrusted to them, is a high breach of privilege, a contempt
offered to this House, a direct proposition to the Legislature and each
member of it, to com¬mit perjury; and involves, necessarily, in its
execution and its conse¬quences, the destruction of our country and
the crime of high trea¬son.

"Resolved, therefore, That the Hon. JOHN Q. ADAMS, a member from
Massachusetts, in presenting for the consideration of the House of
Representatives of the United States, a petition praying the
dis¬solution of the Union, has offered the deepest indignity to the
House of which he is a member; an insult to the people of the United
States, of which that House is the Legislative organ; and will, if this
outrage be permitted to pass unrebuked and unpunished, have disgraced
his country, through their Representatives, in the eyes of the whole
world.

"Resolved, further, That the aforesaid JOHN Q. ADAMS, for this
in¬sult, the first of the kind ever offered to the Government, and for
the wound which he has permitted to be aimed, through his
instru¬mentality, at the Constitution and existence of his country,
the peace, the security, and liberty of the people of these States,
might well be held to merit expulsion from the national councils; and
the House deem it an act of grace and mercy, when they only inflict
upon him their severest censure for conduct so utterly unworthy of his
past relations to the State, and his present position. This they hereby
do for the maintenance of their own purity and dignity; for the rest,
they turn him over to his own conscience and the indignation of all
true American citizens."

After a long debate, where the Old Man Eloquent defended himself and
made fools of the Southern members, the measure was tabled.

In the ante-bellum world the most intrusive Federal law, indeed, except
for postmasters, the only Federal contact most Americans had, was the
1850 Fugitive Slave Law. In essence, forcing Northern citizens to
become slave catchers. When Wisconsin attempted nullification, the
Supreme Court overruled them: national law is supreme over state law.
There were no complaints from the slave states, indeed, there were
compliments. Any complaints were reserved for Free States which had the
gall to attempt to maintain the right of state's to protect their
citizens from arrest and deportation into slavery without due process
of law.

In the middle fifties, during the fight over Kansas, Secretary of War
Jefferson Davis responded to the efforts of the Free State settlers
resisting the Lecompton territorial legislature - and the latter, do
not forget, stands as the worse example of fraudulent voting in
American History, a distinction for which there are a lot of
competition!

Secretary of War Jefferson Davis to Bvt. Major General Persifor F.
Smith, 3 September 1856: "The position of the insurgents ... is that
of open rebellion against the laws and constitutional authorities, with
such an open manifestation of a purpose to spread devastation over the
land, as no longer justifies further hesitation or indulgence. ...
patriotism and humanity alike require that rebellion should be promptly
crushed."

    And three weeks later, the Adjutant General wrote to Smith, quoting
the Secretary of War, "'The only distinction of parties which, in
the military point of view, it is necessary to note, is that which
distinguishes those who respect and maintain the laws and organized
government from those who combine for revolutionary resistance to the
constituted authorities and laws of the land. The armed combination of
the latter class came within the denunciation of the President's
proclamation, and are proper subjects upon which to employ the military
laws.'"

    The next year the Government attempted to put down what the Buchanan
administration saw as rebellion in Utah by the Mormons. Although there
was little actual fighting, the Army, under the command of Albert
Sidney Johnson was embarrassed by the Mormon irregulars and only the
efforts of Buchanan's emissaries and the desire of Brigham Young to
avoid all out war prevented major bloodshed. Buchanan trumpeted the
results as a vindication of American might over lawless religious
separatists.

It is understandable and pardonable that when the slave states
attempted secession, there were a lot of Americans, both North and
South, who not only did not feel that secession was legal, but, to the
contrary, saw it as rebellion and treason.

Take care,

Bob

Judy and Bob Huddleston
10643 Sperry Street
Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
huddleston.r@comcast.net

..the greatest and the noblest man of the last century was Abraham
Lincoln...Though America was his motherland and he was an American, he
regarded the whole world as his native land.

                    Mahatma Gandhi, August 26, 1905
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 24 Sep 2006 23:54 GMT
I was asked privately about the Hartford Convention, which slipped my
mind as I wrote. So I will add to the above discussion:

As a result of New England dissatisfaction with the course of the War
of 1812, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island sent delegates to
a meeting in Hartford in October 1814. Federalists self selected
delegates in Vermont and New Hampshire.

Contrary to neo-Confederate myth, the Hartford Convention rejected
resolutions to secede. The convention claimed a state's rights
position which the citizens of New England rejected. Nationalist
Federalists such as John Quincy Adams migrated to the
Democratic-Republican Party of Jefferson and Madison and the Federalist
Party faded away.

A final report (January 5, 1815, was released just as news arrived of
the American victory at New Orleans and the signing of the Treaty of
Ghent which ended the war.

Bob
ray o'hara - 25 Sep 2006 00:51 GMT
> I was asked privately about the Hartford Convention, which slipped my
> mind as I wrote. So I will add to the above discussion:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a meeting in Hartford in October 1814. Federalists self selected
> delegates in Vermont and New Hampshire.

the whigs sent delegates, not new england. it was a party convention and it
had no official  recognition.
Gary Charbonneau - 25 Sep 2006 02:33 GMT
> > I was asked privately about the Hartford Convention, which slipped my
> > mind as I wrote. So I will add to the above discussion:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>  the whigs sent delegates, not new england. it was a party convention and it
> had no official  recognition.

I'm sure you meant to say "Federalists," not "Whigs."  The Whig Party
did not come into existence until 1833/34.

While the Harford Convention was indeed essentially a Federalist Party
project, the convention assembled pursuant to a call from the
Massachusetts legislature, and 23 of 26 delegates, from Massachusetts,
Connecticut, and Rhode Island, were appointed by state legislatures;
the 3 remaining delegates, from New Hampshire (whose government was
under Republican control) and Vermont, were not.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 25 Sep 2006 13:45 GMT
While not germane to my argument, I am curious: it was my understanding
that "delegates" from VT and NH were not appointed by the states but
were self selected by the Federalist Party. I am be and probalby am,
wrong.

Bob
SNIP

> While the Harford Convention was indeed essentially a Federalist Party
> project, the convention assembled pursuant to a call from the
> Massachusetts legislature, and 23 of 26 delegates, from Massachusetts,
> Connecticut, and Rhode Island, were appointed by state legislatures;
> the 3 remaining delegates, from New Hampshire (whose government was
> under Republican control) and Vermont, were not.
Gary Charbonneau - 26 Sep 2006 01:44 GMT
> While not germane to my argument, I am curious: it was my understanding
> that "delegates" from VT and NH were not appointed by the states but
> were self selected by the Federalist Party. I am be and probalby am,
> wrong.

Bob: You are wrong about being wrong.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 25 Sep 2006 13:45 GMT
@#$%%^&  :>(

Yep. Federalists. Federalists. Federalist.

Fortunately my typo does not change the result: secession  was not
looked upon very kindly by Americans whether in 1794, 1814 or 1850.

SNIP
> I'm sure you meant to say "Federalists," not "Whigs."  The Whig Party
> did not come into existence until 1833/34.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the 3 remaining delegates, from New Hampshire (whose government was
> under Republican control) and Vermont, were not.
Rich Rostrom - 26 Sep 2006 01:44 GMT
>@#$%%^&  :>(
>
>Yep. Federalists. Federalists. Federalist.
>
>Fortunately my typo does not change the result: secession  was not
>looked upon very kindly by Americans whether in 1794, 1814 or 1850.

Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the
Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by
the Republicans of the time to discredit
the Federalist; quite successfully too.
| He had a shorter,  more scraggly, and even less    |
| flattering beard than Yassir Arafat, and Escalante |
| never conceived that such a thing was possible.    |
|  -- William Goldman, _Heat_                        |
Alfred Montestruc - 26 Sep 2006 11:40 GMT
> >@#$%%^&  :>(
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by
> the Republicans of the time

The Republican Party (which you do state as you capitalized
"Republican" and did not write "Democratic-Republican", if you do not
mean "Republican Party" state so)  did not exist at the time of the
Hartford convention.

The modern republican party was founded on 6 July 1854.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic-Republican_Party_(United_States)

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-119570597.html
scribe7716 - 26 Sep 2006 16:35 GMT
> > Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the
> > Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> mean "Republican Party" state so)  did not exist at the time of the
> Hartford convention.

Actually the party was founded as Republican Party and was so known at
the time of the Hartford Convention.  It did not become known as the
Democratic-Republican Party until the political coming of Andrew
Jackson.
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 14:51 GMT
> > > Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the
> > > Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Democratic-Republican Party until the political coming of Andrew
> Jackson.

To refer to it as "the Republican Party" in a "civil war" newsgroup is
disingenious.  The Republican Party of Lincoln that is associated
(rightly) with the war was founded much later, when the party of
Jefferson and Jackson was called the Democratic party.
scribe7716 - 02 Oct 2006 17:24 GMT
> > > > Yes. AIUI, the alleged secessionism of the
> > > > Hartford Convention was loudly trumpeted by
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> (rightly) with the war was founded much later, when the party of
> Jefferson and Jackson was called the Democratic party.

And the party making much over the supposed secession sentiments at the
Hartford Convention was the Republican Party.  Surely participation in
a Civil War newsgroup does not mandate an ignorance of prior history.
Gary Charbonneau - 26 Sep 2006 01:44 GMT
> @#$%%^&  :>(
>
> Yep. Federalists. Federalists. Federalist.
>
> Fortunately my typo does not change the result: secession  was not
> looked upon very kindly by Americans whether in 1794, 1814 or 1850.

Bob: The error wasn't yours, but Ray O'Hara's.
cncfixxer - 28 Sep 2006 01:42 GMT
> Common on these chat groups is the claim that not only was secession
> legal, but that this fact was so obvious that no one really disputed it
[quoted text clipped - 181 lines]
>
> Mahatma Gandhi, August 26, 1905

I'm new at this so please forgive my ignorance ... I do look at things
objectively and keep an open mind.

What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events
that happened 145 years ago?

Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most
northern working class people could care less about slavery... life was hard
and few had time for events another world away ( travel to the south by
horse took many days, few people had traveled more then 100 miles from
home ).
I honestly believe that a double standard existed regarding the southern
states.   The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission
instead of due process.    If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the
plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men .  Many southerners knew
the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way.

http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/001128.shtml
The American people think they live under their Constitution, because the
U.S. Government tells them so. Of course that same government also tells
them what the Constitution means, and the meaning keeps changing, and with
every new meaning the government increases its own power.
And few people see the logical absurdity of letting a government decide the
meaning of the very document that is supposed to limit that government's
powers. Could anything be more irrational? If the federal government can
change the Constitution, which was allegedly "unalterable by the
government," why bother having a written constitution at all?
Gary Charbonneau - 28 Sep 2006 02:45 GMT
> What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events
> that happened 145 years ago?

Well, no amendment has been added to the Constitution since the Civil
War that would change the constitutionality of secession.  Therefore,
if secession was constitutional then, it would be constitutional now.
Any state today could legally, at any time and for any reason, declare
itself a foreign country.  If the Constitution actually permits that,
then my personal opinion is that it's broke and needs fixin'.  On the
other hand, if you're the type of person who takes the opposite
position, that a state ought to be able to declare itself a foreign
country at any time and for any reason, and the Constitution doesn't
allow that, then you would say that the Constitution is broke and needs
fixin'.

>  Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most
> northern working class people could care less about slavery... life was hard
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men .  Many southerners knew
> the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way.

If you take the time to read the official statements issued by several
of the states that seceded, you'll find that one of their major beef
wasn't with the federal government at all, but with people of the free
states who supposedly weren't knuckling under to the federal government
in the matter of fugitive slaves.  The Fugitive Slave Law of 1850 said
that the federal government had the power to take someone accused of
being a fugitive slave from a free state and send him to permanent
bondage in a slave state.  Even a casual reading of the Constitution
would suggest that there's something a bit fishy about the notion that
such a power had been delegated to the federal government -- and that
the federal government could, in the process, deny the accused fugitive
the right to a jury trial and the privilege of the writ of habeas
corpus, as the Constitution appears to guarantee.

> http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/001128.shtml
> The American people think they live under their Constitution, because the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> change the Constitution, which was allegedly "unalterable by the
>  government," why bother having a written constitution at all?

I hear ya, brother.  If you look, for example, at the Supreme Court's
DRED SCOTT decision of 1857, it's hard to believe that it was anything
other than a blatant attempt by the Court to subvert the Constitution
in order to assert a so-called "right" of slaveholders to bring their
slaves into any U.S. territory they pleased.  On the other hand, what's
the alternative? Leave it up to each state to decide which federal
statutes are constitutional?  If you did that, you'd quickly wind up
with a situation in which the very same statute (the Fugitive Slave
Law, for example) was constitutional in South Carolina but not
constitutional in Massachusetts.  And why should either South Carolina
or Massachusetts have had the power to decide what federal laws were
constitutional in the territory of Kansas?
Mike Stone - 02 Oct 2006 14:34 GMT
"Gary Charbonneau" <charbonn@indiana.edu> wrote in
message
news:1159406476.385450.291720@m7g2000cwm.googlegro
ups.com...
> If you take the time to read the official statements issued by several
> of the states that seceded, you'll find that one of their major beef
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> would suggest that there's something a bit fishy about the notion that
> such a power had been delegated to the federal government --

Nothing fishy at all. The Constitution was quite
_specific_ on that. See Article IV, Sec 2, 2nd
Para -

"No Person held to Service or Labor in one state,
under the Laws thereof, escaping into another,
shall, in Consequence of any  Law or Regulation
therein, be discharged from such Service or Labor,
but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to
whom such Service of Labor may be due."

Lincoln, in his first inaugural address,
emphasised that when he swore to "preserve protect
and defend the Constitution of the United States",
he was swearing to uphold that clause just as much
as any other.

>and that
> the federal government could, in the process, deny the accused fugitive
> the right to a jury trial and the privilege of the writ of habeas
> corpus, as the Constitution appears to guarantee.

That indeed is more questionable. Lincoln was on
record as supporting an effective Fugitive Slave
Law, but only if it were no more likely to consign
a [legally] free man to servitude "than our
ordinary criminal laws are to hang an innocent
one". He and others were extremely doubtful
whether the 1850 Act met that last criterion.

--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England

"It is so stupid of modern civilisation to have
given up believing in the devil, when he is its
only explanation"

Ronald Knox
Gregory E. Garland - 28 Sep 2006 11:54 GMT
> I'm new at this so please forgive my ignorance ... I do look at things
> objectively and keep an open mind.
>
> What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events
> that happened 145 years ago?

Standing up to people with obtuse and usually unpleasant modern political
agendas who blatantly lie about my country's history to justify those
agendas seems reason enough. Not that any of those people want to
turn the clock back to the 1850's, some just want to turn it back to the
1950's when the negroes knew their place (and if they objected... well
killing an uppity black wasn't really murder).

> Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most
> northern working class people could care less about slavery

Pick one. Either abolitionist hysteria was the norm, or the 99% of the
people in the north who were working class didn't care. Or if you like,
provoking hysteria about 'black republicans' and other 'hysterical
abolitionists' was indeed the favorite tactic of the southern fire-eaters
who pushed through secession. So it may have been prevalent in the
south, but not in the north.
Cash - 28 Sep 2006 19:21 GMT
> What hope can you possibly have trying to interpret the legality of events
> that happened 145 years ago?
-----------------------------
It's called "history."

>  Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most
> northern working class people could care less about slavery.
----------------------------
Which one is it?

And why do you refer to abolitionist "hysteria?"

Were the abolitionists right in saying slavery was immoral?  Were they
right in saying it should be done away with?

> I honestly believe that a double standard existed regarding the southern
> states.   The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission
> instead of due process.
---------------------
It was the confederacy who started the war, not "the North."

   If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
> their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the
> plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men .  Many southerners knew
> the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way.
------------------------
How is it that they didn't complain about any actions of the Federal
government but instead complained that other states weren't knuckling
under to the Federal government by returning fugitive slaves?

Lincoln promised that he wouldn't touch slavery where it existed but
instead he would prevent it from expanding into territories.   So who
was trying to use muscle to force who into submission?

> http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/001128.shtml
-------------------------

If you're looking for accurate history, Sobran is one of the least
likely places to find it.

[modern politics snipped]

Regards,
Cash
S Witmer - 29 Sep 2006 03:22 GMT
<snip>

> I'm new at this so please forgive my ignorance ... I do look at things
> objectively and keep an open mind.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>  Abolitionist hysteria was the norm and I have the impression that most
> northern working class people could care less about slavery...

Oh, I wouldn't say that.  There were active Underground Railroad
routes in pretty much every state of the north.  And religious groups
such as the Quakers and Congregationalists were anti-slavery in their
outlook.  John Brown & his "troops" found safe havens in parts of
the north.

life was hard
> and few had time for events another world away ( travel to the south by
> horse took many days, few people had traveled more then 100 miles from
> home ).

But it was on their minds because it was affecting their country.  News
of "Bleeding Kansas" and the LeCompton fiasco, arguments over
Personal Liberty Laws, the Wilmot Proviso, etc, permeated political
discussion and newspapers of their day.  The Caning of Sumner in
Congress, while many miles away, invoked a strong emotional response
just as much then as a similar incident would today.

And you'd be surprised at how well travelled some of the population
was, by the way (though admittedly there were, as you say, plenty who
had never travelled what we would consider "far from home"). In states
like Iowa, Nebraska, and Minnesota, for example, the vast majority
(especially of the adult population) were not born in those states
because they had migrated from out east for from overseas.  And some of
the population had gone to California during the gold rush and
returned, some with more cash than they left with if they were lucky.
Still others had served during the Mexican-American War.

> I honestly believe that a double standard existed regarding the southern
> states.   The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission
> instead of due process.

Which due process would this be?  Are you suggesting that after federal
troops had been fired upon with artillery firing heated shot the proper
course of action is a lawsuit?  You're new here, but I've pointed
out many times that some of the forts seized were seized prior to the
secession of the states they were located in.  If an armed seizure of a
federal arsenal or fort doesn't qualify as rebellion I am at a loss
as to what would.

If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
> their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the
> plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men .

Er...exactly how was anyone to predict the cost of the rebellion in
advance, especially when most of the population on BOTH sides thought
the whole war would last just a few months and involve just a few
setpiece battles, rather than four years of grinding campaigns on a
scale never seen before in western history?  Also, are you aware that
Lincoln floated the proposal of compensated emancipation to
representatives of the Border States well after the war was underway
and it was flatly rejected?

Many southerners knew
> the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way.

Well, if you're talking about forcing the pro-slavery Lecompton
constitution down the throats of Kansas settlers, then you may have a
point.  And the forcing of a gag rule on Congress in the late 1830's
banning the discussion of anti-slavery petitions. But other than that,
can you elaborate on exactly how they knew this?

Are you aware the in big chunks of the south, it was against the law to
publicly speak in favor of abolition of slavery (not to mention
risking, at the least, a good beating and death threats), and it was a
criminal offense to even possess or send literature regarding such
through the mail?  So let's not pretend that the southerners were not
adverse to a little tyranny, provided it was *their* tyranny.

As of a week or two prior to the firing on Ft. Sumter, Lincoln had not
accepted so much as a company of milita for federal service, despite
many offers.  The standing army numbered just 16,000, most of which
were stationed in scattered detachments on the western frontier.  In
comparison, in South Carolina and Florida alone there were roughly the
same number of troops with more being mustered in daily.  This, to
defend against two forts lightly garrisoned by federal troops (Ft.
Sumter, for example, had less than 80 soldiers within its walls, plus a
handful of civilian contractors).  So exactly what tyranny was the
south defending against in April 1861, apart from the tyranny of the
northern population having the temerity to dare to elect a president
they didn't particularly like?

<snip>

Oh, by the way - regarding that Sobran article, he might want learn
some history himself before bemoaning American's lack of familiarity
with it.  He fires off a diatribe against paper money as something
tyrants need, but fails to understand the the *Continental Congress*
issued paper money during the Revolution!  And of course, we *all* know
what tyrants people like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John and
Samuel Adams, John Jay, and all *that* crowd were, don't we...

The moral of the story - don't depend on Sobran for the facts.
cncfixxer - 30 Sep 2006 12:53 GMT
WOW!!
My first post and it seems like I've been able to get both sides angry.
Commenting my point of view is akin to speaking about abortion ,,,, no mater
what you say about it millions of people will hate you.

I guess I'm not ready for prime time .  I will however continue to read and
try to get more insight into a facinating subject.
S Witmer - 30 Sep 2006 23:40 GMT
> WOW!!
> My first post and it seems like I've been able to get both sides angry.

Oh, I wouldn't say that.  Just giving you food for thought.

> Commenting my point of view is akin to speaking about abortion ,,,, no mater
> what you say about it millions of people will hate you.

There are definitely passions about the Civil War, even nearly 150
years later, for sure.

> I guess I'm not ready for prime time .  I will however continue to read and
> try to get more insight into a facinating subject.

Oh, post away.  At least here on the moderated group you won't get
anywhere near the blasting you might get on the unmoderated group if
you post something someone really doesn't like.  We have to try to be
nice here.  :-)
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 30 Sep 2006 23:46 GMT
No, not angry. Just disagreeing.

And you *are* ready for prime time. Ask questions -- otherwise you will
not have the opportunity to discover what really happened.

Bob
> WOW!!
> My first post and it seems like I've been able to get both sides angry.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I guess I'm not ready for prime time .  I will however continue to read and
> try to get more insight into a facinating subject.
Mike Stone - 02 Oct 2006 14:34 GMT
>   The North used it's muscle to force the South into submission
> instead of due process.

Er, _when_ did they do so? If you check what
happened on April 12, 1861 you will see that it
was the South, not the North, which first ppealed
to military force. As for "due process", if anyone
in the South claimed that the government was
exceeding its powers, wasn't it for _them_ to go
to court? Afaik they never tried to.

>If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
> their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the
> plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men
Mike Stone - 02 Oct 2006 16:25 GMT
> If you add the monetary cost of the Rebellion
> their was enough money to purchase every slave in the South, then force the
> plantation owners to pay them a wage as free men .  Many southerners knew
> the Federal Government used tyranny as a means to get thier way.

The North, prior to the outbreak of war, had
never made any demands on the South in regard to
its slaves, except that they should not be taken
into the Territories - the latter an arrangement
which Thomas Jefferson had endorsed in the
Northwest Ordinance as far back as 1787, the
Monroe administration irt most of the Louisiana
Purchase in 1820, and President Polk irt Oregon in
1846. Were they abolitionists or anti-Southern?

As late as 1861, after the Lower South had already
withdrawn, the remaining Senators and
Representatives, now of course predominantly
northern, mustered a two-thirds vote of both
Houses in favour of an Amendment prohibiting the
US gov't from interfering with slavery in those
states which retained it.  The affirmative votes
included nearly half the Republican membership in
each House. This article was in process of being
ratified when the Secessionists rendered it moot
by initiating war.

As for "tyranny" what on earth is that supposed to
mean? Depending on the legality or otherwise of
secession, the Federal gov't in 1861-5 was either
suppressing an insurrection or else prosecuting
war against a foreign country which had arttacked
the United States. There would seem to be nothing
particularly tyrannnical about either action.

--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England

"It is so stupid of modern civilisation to have
given up believing in the devil, when he is its
only explanation"

Ronald Knox
Alfred Montestruc - 29 Sep 2006 03:22 GMT
> Common on these chat groups is the claim that not only was secession
> legal, but that this fact was so obvious that no one really disputed it
> in 1860-61 nor later.

Since you quote me a lot I take it you are aiming this at me.

I never said that people did not dispute it.  I am well aware that they
did, I just don't think that they were being intellectually honest.
They were being at least as much a bunch of hypocrites as slave owners
who talked about "give me liberty or give me death".

>And those who opposed secession were close to
> being criminal in their opposition.

When you get ~ 620,000 people killed in the process when you can avoid
the bloodbath by just letting the other side alone, , , yeah seems
pretty criminal to me.

> A couple of recent quotes on this site illustrate the claim:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> The claim is false on two points:

You assert those claims to be false.

> First those making it in 1860-61 and as well as in Y2K ignore the fact
> that any arguments in favor of secession were and are instantly
> countered with equally valid and reasoned arguments against the
> proposition.

First off if they were "equally valid" then clearly the solution that
leaves less folks dead should be prefered by all, and someone who wants
to pursue an "equally valid" solution that results in the deaths of
hundreds of thousands of people, and the other does not result in an
immediate war, then that act is criminal.

> While the pro-secessionists make good points, they seem to
> miss the fact that the pro-unionists also make good points.

Depends on what you mean by good.

> Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
> than there were those who believed it to be legal.

Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
northern side.  It is a well know and well documented fact that many
politicians, newspaper editors, and other public figures that spoke out
against the war and against the legality of the government's actions
were thrown in prison, and newspapers that printed anything of the kind
stopped that or were closed.

This is along the lines of quoting Soviet public opinion on the virtues
of communism in the 1930s when having any but the "correct" opinioin
can get you in prison or worse.  I boggle every time I hear you or
anyone raise this issue when you know of numerous example of northern
public officials jailed and otherwise mistreated for expression of an
opinion that the Republican party did not approve of.

On the southern side, by mid war the typical southerner could give a
tinker's damn about the legality of secession by the laws of the USA,
as they were in a war of national survival of the CSA vs. USA, and
either it was legal or not, but irrelivent by that point in time from
their perspective.

>This is not to deny
> that secession had - and has -its arguments. Rather it is to point
> out that the Unionists also had their good points.

Aside from the circular arguments about the supremacy clause, and that
slavery was a bad thing, what?

> Given that neither side had a monopoly on the legality/illegality of
> secession, we can turn to the second point:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> to be insurrectionists, and raising a military force to put down the
> insurrection.

True but as you say this was not a group of state governments acting
together and not firing a shot for months while repeatedly asking the
federal government to negociate a seperation peacefully before opening
fire when they would not leave, and had been in deliberate violation of
state law for months.

In any case I would say that this rebellion (whiskey)  was the fault of
the government more than of the rebels, they would not take the tax in
kind and the farmers in western Pensylvainia did not have money, which
was one of the reasons they made whiskey for sale in the first place.
If the government made the reasonable allowance of taking taxes in
kind, then this would never have gotten very far.

> The military force was led, BTW, by a Revolutionary war general named
> Light Horse Harry Lee. Hmm. I am sure, with that sort of heritage, any
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> fingers of one's hands. However, Jefferson's quick action prevented
> Burr from attempting any secession.

If he had any intention to do so in the first place which has never
been proven.

> Andrew Jackson faced a more overt effort at secession with South
> Carolina and we know what he thought of the idea. It is no accident
> that in 1860-61, the Jacksonians were adamant that secession was not
> permissible Taney may not have liked Lincoln but he upheld the
> government in the Prize Cases. Sam Houston was booted out as Texas
> governor because he opposed his state's secession.

Not exactly true.  He was opposed to secession as IIRC bad policy, but
bowed to it after the referendum for secession passed by a landslide.
He opposed alignment of Texas with the CSA, which was not subject to a
referendum and that was what got him kicked out of office.

As in Texas goes it alone rather than with the CSA.

http://www.carpenoctem.tv/military/houston.html

I think that arguably this was more plausible especially if in addition
to the protecting slavery noise in the declaration, they had included
that the US Federal government was not able to keep civil order (which
at the time it could not), and that Texas was reverting to her
independent status, and would remain neutral as long as her borders
were respected.

The fact that she had been independent and was seceeding in part as a
result of the US Federal government's inability to function as it had
implicitly promised to do in the treaty of annexation (keeping order)
would give Texas much more of a leg to stand on in recognition of other
powers.

>Andrew Johnson was
> the only senator from a Confederate state to continue his duties in
> Washington.

Kind of shows that secession was popular in the south. If it were not
as some claim, you would see more US federal officers in the north as
refugees.

> In 1840, during the Gag Rule fight over anti-slavery petitions in the
> House of Representatives, John Quincy Adams, the member from Braintree,
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> his country, through their Representatives, in the eyes of the whole
> world.

I agree that the north has no monopoly on hypocrites.

> "Resolved, further, That the aforesaid JOHN Q. ADAMS, for this
> in¬sult, the first of the kind ever offered to the Government, and for
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> After a long debate, where the Old Man Eloquent defended himself and
> made fools of the Southern members, the measure was tabled.

;-) he made fools of them but you post no link to the debate?

> In the ante-bellum world the most intrusive Federal law, indeed, except
> for postmasters, the only Federal contact most Americans had, was the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> American History, a distinction for which there are a lot of
> competition!

How can you prove it is the worst?

--------------snip
Stephen Graham - 29 Sep 2006 21:40 GMT
> Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
> northern side.

How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan?
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 14:51 GMT
> > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
> > northern side.
>
> How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan?

I do not know who Mr. Black is.

>From my perspective Mr. Buchanan's position was quite defendable.
While he argued (incorrectly IMHO) that secession was illegal, he also
argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal
authority to stop them.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jb15.html

So as I see it he is more on my side than yours or the Lincoln
administration's.
S Witmer - 02 Oct 2006 16:31 GMT
> > > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> > > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >From my perspective Mr. Buchanan's position was quite defendable.
> While he argued (incorrectly IMHO) that secession was illegal,

<boggle>

So now your opinion is more valid than *two* presidents (three if we
include Andy Jackson) and the Supreme Court (on at least two occasions,
no less - The Prize Cases where both majority and dissenting opinion
described events in terms of rebellion and insurrection, NOT a war
between two nations; and Texas v White)?

he also
> argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal
> authority to stop them.

I've always thought that was incredibly wishy-washy of Buchanan.  If it
was illegal, his duty as the Chief Executive was to see that the law
was upheld.

> http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jb15.html
>
> So as I see it he is more on my side than yours or the Lincoln
> administration's.

And yet he didn't evacuate Sumter and even sent the Star the West
expedition.
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 23:06 GMT
> > > > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> > > > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> <boggle>

Boggle yourself. this is not a monarchy, or a society of nobles and
commoners.  My opinion is just as good as that of any president in a
legal matter.  Only where it is a judge with jurisdiction, do we have
to accept his ruling, and we can still argue that the ruling is wrong.

> So now your opinion is more valid than *two* presidents (three if we
> include Andy Jackson) and the Supreme Court (on at least two occasions,
> no less

Not before the war, and not without either the threat of arrest and
prison, or where the war had already settled things (verdict of the
battlefield).   Taney by his own statments feared the president would
order him arrested and imprisoned, and given the general situation it
was not an unreasonable fear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taney_Arrest_Warrant

The problem with such threats, implicit or explicit is that we can now
never truly know if those decisions were influnced by them, and that
makes respect for the law much harder.

> - The Prize Cases where both majority and dissenting opinion
> described events in terms of rebellion and insurrection, NOT a war
> between two nations; and Texas v White)?

Which was IIRC in the late 1860s, while the court had been packed with
Radical Republicans, and where threats to hang confederate government
officials for treason were very much in the wind, and you expect us to
in that environment to accept such a ruling as being unbiased by either
fear or Republican partisanship?

Please spare me.

> he also
> > argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal
> > authority to stop them.
>
> I've always thought that was incredibly wishy-washy of Buchanan.  If it
> was illegal,

Illegal and unconstitutional are not the same thing.  Be careful of
your terms.  If it was never made illegal by congress, then he had no
authority to enforce laws that did not exist, and it was too late
(given the ex post facto clause) to write new ones to cover the hole.

Of course from my perspective Lincoln did not care for legalities.

> his duty as the Chief Executive was to see that the law
> was upheld.

Right.  And he said he had no legal leg to stand on to do what you
think right.

> > http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/jb15.html
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> And yet he didn't evacuate Sumter and even sent the Star the West
> expedition.

Yes I agree it would have been better for the nation if he had removed
the object of friction from secession.   If Lincoln had been denyied
the chance to play his little game, and was presented with an
accomplished fact, the war might never have been fought.
S Witmer - 03 Oct 2006 01:42 GMT
> > > > > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> > > > > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> commoners.  My opinion is just as good as that of any president in a
> legal matter.

But *3* of them?  Two of whom were lawyers (Lincoln and Buchanan)?  And
Buchanan's Attorney General? And an entire sitting Supreme Court, on
two separate occasions?

There is opinion and then there is expert opinion.  A medical opinion
from a doctor may just be an opinion but that doesn't mean I'm going to
give your medical advice the same weight as my GP.  And if I have
medical opinion from nine or ten doctors who all tell me the same
thing, I'm pretty sure your opinion is going to carry very little
weight.  Sooner or later the weight of a number of what could be
considered authoritative opinions is going to override your
non-authoritative opinion.  Yes, you can still hold that opinion just
as much as some might cling to the opinion that the earth is flat, but
don't expect it to hold much water.

Only where it is a judge with jurisdiction, do we have
> to accept his ruling, and we can still argue that the ruling is wrong.

Argue away.  You have two Supreme Court decisions that disagree with
you.  Even Roger Taney doesn't agree with you.

> > So now your opinion is more valid than *two* presidents (three if we
> > include Andy Jackson) and the Supreme Court (on at least two occasions,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taney_Arrest_Warrant

We've been over this, Al.  The "Lincoln threatened to arrest Taney"
story is pretty much discredited.  And the fact remains that Taney
*chose*, yes *chose*, to remained loyal to the Union and kept his
Supreme Court seat when he could have verily easily headed south with
the other rebels.

> The problem with such threats, implicit or explicit is that we can now
> never truly know if those decisions were influnced by them, and that
> makes respect for the law much harder.

I've never heard Roger Taney described as spineless.

> > - The Prize Cases where both majority and dissenting opinion
> > described events in terms of rebellion and insurrection, NOT a war
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> in that environment to accept such a ruling as being unbiased by either
> fear or Republican partisanship?

The Prize Cases were IIRC in 1862.  And the fact remains that the
language of both majority and dissenting opinions described what was
happening as a rebellion.  The dissenting opinion could have easily
tap-danced around that and avoided such language without incurring
Republican wrath, but they did not.  And one wonders, if they were all
so terrified, why was the decision not unanimous?  If Taney and his
dissenting compatriots were shaking in their boots, one wonders why
they *dared* to dissent?

> Please spare me.

Only if you spare me your theories that Roger Taney was a coward, but
still openly dissented in the Prize Cases.

> > he also
> > > argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> the chance to play his little game, and was presented with an
> accomplished fact, the war might never have been fought.
scribe7716 - 03 Oct 2006 17:45 GMT
> Boggle yourself. this is not a monarchy, or a society of nobles and
> commoners.  My opinion is just as good as that of any president in a
> legal matter.

No,  while you have as much right to an opinion as anyone else that
does not mean that your opinion is just as good as that of anyon else.
Stephen Graham - 02 Oct 2006 18:41 GMT
>>> Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
>>> the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
>>> northern side.
>> How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan?
>
> I do not know who Mr. Black is.

Mr Black was Attorney General of the United States for most of the
Buchanan administration and Secretary of State for the final months,
beginning on 17 December 1860. He drafted the opinion regarding
secession that Buchanan relied upon.

Neither Mr Black or Mr Buchanan was influenced by "heavy handed control
of the media".

>>From my perspective Mr. Buchanan's position was quite defendable.
> While he argued (incorrectly IMHO) that secession was illegal, he also
> argued (very correctly IMHO) that the federal government had no legal
> authority to stop them.

Specifically, Mr Buchanan and Mr Black felt that the Federal Government
could not use force to compel the states to rescind their ordinances of
secession. They were wrong.

The government could, however, use force to defend federal property,
including Ft Sumter and Pickens, as well as to defend against attack by
external forces.

One should remember that Mr Buchanan was hoping to stall for as long as
possible so that Mr Lincoln would have to deal with the problem.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 02 Oct 2006 23:06 GMT
No, no, no. You are obviously wrong. The evil Republican press had
brainwashed Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Black even before  Lincoln took
office. There is no other answer why they, as well as the hundreds of
thousands of Northern Democrats answered the Call on April 15. :>)

Bob

Alfred Montestruc wrote:
> Stephen Graham wrote:
>> Alfred Montestruc wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> How did that affect the opinions of Jeremiah Black and James Buchanan?
> I do not know who Mr. Black is.
Mr Black was Attorney General of the United States for most of the
Buchanan administration and Secretary of State for the final months,
beginning on 17 December 1860. He drafted the opinion regarding
secession that Buchanan relied upon.
Neither Mr Black or Mr Buchanan was influenced by "heavy handed control

of the media".
Alfred Montestruc - 03 Oct 2006 01:01 GMT
> No, no, no. You are obviously wrong. The evil Republican press had
> brainwashed Mr. Buchanan and Mr. Black even before  Lincoln took
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> of the media".

And did not agree with the Republicans as to the legality of forcing
people to stay in the union.  Thank you for the evidence supporting my
point.
Stephen Graham - 03 Oct 2006 11:32 GMT
> And did not agree with the Republicans as to the legality of forcing
> people to stay in the union.  Thank you for the evidence supporting my
> point.

As I noted, Mr Black and Mr Buchanan were wrong. Specifically, they
intentionally took a stance that absolved them from acting, holding to
an interpretation of the Militia Act of 1795 not consonant with the
intent or logic.

You should note, however, that they did firmly believe in the Federal
power to hold Ft Sumter and Ft Pickens in the face of opposition. They
were no more willing to surrender the forts than Lincoln was. So the
proximate cause of the Civil War would still have occurred.
jfe@ams.org - 29 Sep 2006 21:40 GMT
> > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> were thrown in prison, and newspapers that printed anything of the kind
> stopped that or were closed.

This kind of thing is often asserted, but is nonetheless not true.
There
was no "heavy handed control of media" by the Republicans.  Some
editors
and papers were sanctioned, but many more were not.  The opposition
press was very active and vocal throughout the war.

JFE
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 29 Sep 2006 23:31 GMT
And even if the statement were true -- which it is not -- the heavy
handed Black Republicans could hardly be said to control the press in
April, 1861.

There was never anything in the Free Sates to come close to the
censorship imposed on the slave state press preventing the latter from
reporting any story which might be interpreted as anti-slavery.

Take care,

Bob

Judy and Bob Huddleston
10643 Sperry Street
Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
huddleston.r@comcast.net

"The firing on that fort will inaugurate a civil war greater than any
the world yet seen and I do not feel competent to advise you. Mr.
President, at this time it is suicide, murder, and will lose us every
friend at the North. You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest which
extends from mountain to ocean, and legions now quiet will swarm out
and sting us to death. It is unnecessary; it puts us in the wrong; it
is fatal."
Robert Toombs, April 11, 1861
SNIP
> > Yes, but it is unreasonable to think that this had nothing to do with
> > the heavy handed control of media the Republican party used in the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> JFE
Alfred Montestruc - 30 Sep 2006 04:24 GMT
> > > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> > > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> This kind of thing is often asserted, but is nonetheless not true.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/adams3.html

----quote------
Charles W. Smith, a biographer of Taney (1973), gives this account of
the scope of the arrests of civilians:

Without the sanction of law the federal government arrested men by the
thousands and confined them in military prisons. The number of such
executive arrests was certainly over 13,000, and it has been estimated
to have been as high as 38,000 (Columbia Law Review, XXI, 527-28,
1921).
--------end quote------

If you are going to poo-poo the article for being on Lew Rockwell, note
the Columbia Law Review reference.

Even 13,000 civilians arrested and detained in military prisons w/o
trial, let alone 38,000 for months or years for expression of opinion
disliked by the Republican party is VERY intimidating.  Your
assertation to the contrary seems quite absurd to me.

> There
> was no "heavy handed control of media" by the Republicans.  Some
> editors
> and papers were sanctioned,

Is that what being locked up in a military prison without trial or any
vague form of legal process?

I was under the impression that sanctions were more along the lines of
a boycott.

>but many more were not.

Of course, those who did not express what the Republicans did not want
said.

> The opposition
> press was very active and vocal throughout the war.

Sure, as long as they stayed away from issues the Republicans wanted
them to.
ray o'hara - 30 Sep 2006 23:40 GMT
> > > > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> > > > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
> Sure, as long as they stayed away from issues the Republicans wanted
> them to.

using idealogues like adams, the kennedy brothers or sobran is like using
matt drudge for news. their facts range from incorrect to made up.
adams is not a credible source
Alfred Montestruc - 01 Oct 2006 13:34 GMT
> > > > > Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> > > > > out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
>  using idealogues like adams,

How about Smith?

http://www.law.upenn.edu/about/history/medallions/taney/index.html
---------quote
Roger B. Taney, Jacksonian Jurist, by Charles W. Smith, Jr., University
of North Carolina Press, 1936.
-----------------end quote

Clearly the soruce he quotes exists, and it is creditable that the
source would have something to say on the subject.

http://www.amazon.com/Roger-B-Taney-Jacksonian-Jurist/dp/0306705559

It is also clear that the work is cited a lot in serious academic works
see the above site that indicates it is cited by 23 different books
including a history of the US Supreme Court.

This is the source Adams claims, and he states Smith was quoting the
Columbia law Review.  I should hope you are not going to accuse the
Columbia Law Review of being not credible.

>the kennedy brothers

So what is wrong with their work in terms of citings? A few mistakes do
not make them dishonest.  It takes consistent use of non-existent
sources, or deliberate false quotes of soruces.

> or sobran is like using
> matt drudge for news. their facts range from incorrect to made up.

Uh huh.

When people on this newsgroup claimed words to the effect that blacks
never fought on the southern side, I used the Kennedy book "The South
Was Right!"  To find numerous first person accounts from various
creditble sources that this was false, which included US Army sources,
British Military observers, and accounts of Confederate officers. Some
were first hand accounts of black confederate veterans, backed up by
other (white) veterans of the same unit.  It would be difficult or
impossibe to put a percentage on the number of fighting men, nor do I
claim they were on "official" CS Army muster lists as fighting men,
more troops fought as state milita anyway.  I only claim that numerous
contemporary creditable sources state that some existed, and specific
examples are given, and that the Kennedy Brothers book gave good
references to find them.

One example is that of British observer Fremantle's account of an armed
slave (no doubt on the unit muster list as a body servant) escorting
Union POWs to the rear areas alone at Gettiesburg, unsupervised by any
white confederates, and when questioned by a general as to what he was
doing, said that he was escorting prisoners to the rear and made
disparaging remarks about the yankees.

http://mainemilitia.com/node/548

---------quote--------
"A negro dressed in full yankee uniform, with a rifle at full cock,
leading along a barefooted white man, with whom he evidently changed
clothes. General Longstreeted stopped the pair, and asked the black man
what it meant. The negro replied, "The two soldiers in charge of this
here yank have got drunk, so for fear he should escape I have took care
of him and brought him through that little town." The cosequential
manner of the negro, and the supreme contempt witch which he spoke to
his prisoner, were most amusing. This little episode of a southern
black leading a white yankee soldier through a Northern village, alone
and of his own accord, would not have been gratiying to an
abolistionist.Nor would the sympathizers both in England and in the
North feel encouraged if they could hear the language of detestation
and contempt with which the numerous negroes with the Southern armies
speak of their so called liberators."
------------end quote

> adams is not a credible source

Yeah right.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 01 Oct 2006 17:30 GMT
Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_:

Like most angry books, this one contains a few facts onto which the
authors pile false and misleading statements, invalid assumptions, weak
logic, poor history and selected quotations in order to arrive at their
predetermined conclusions.

......
"A government that does not rule with the consent of the governed fails
the test of legitimacy and therefore has no legal right to rule and
shall be regarded as a tyranny." Such a government "has by its own
actions renounced any claim to a legal right to govern." Few would
quarrel with these comments.

The Kennedys then apply these observations to the hated Federal
government. The criteria, however, cut both ways. They can more
accurately be applied to ante-bellum South Carolina and Mississippi,
where more than one-half of the population was - under state tyranny
- enslaved. Folks in western Virginia in the early 1860s used the
same arguments against the rest of the Old Dominion and the
Confederacy.

Certain things are clearly true and need to be said. Many white
Northerners were (and are) racists; many were (and are) hypocrites.
Most Federal soldiers did not bathe often enough to suit modern
olfactory nerves. Lots of Northerners spoke (and speak) with an accent
that grates painfully upon the ears.

......
None of these truths, however, alters that fact that on both of the two
big issues of the mid-19th century the South was basically wrong and
the North was basically right. Slavery was certainly legal and
secession arguably so, but both were so wrong and so stupid that there
are no sound grounds on which either can be defended.

The time has come for us white Southerners to admit that our
Confederate ancestors -- most whom were brave, admirable, honorable
people devoted to their homes, families and cause - were in the wrong.

_The South Was Right!_ is an exercise in unproductive bitterness. It
does not further our understanding of antebellum America or the Civil
War. It does give an insight into the mind-set of some late
20th-century Americans. It will have great appeal to those whose
retirement funds are invested Confederate government securities. White
Southerners who like to wallow in self-pity will also it edifying.

Richard McMurry

Reprinted from _The Civil War News_, October 1994, p. 33

SNIP
> >the kennedy brothers
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> examples are given, and that the Kennedy Brothers book gave good
> references to find them.

SNIP of example

> > adams is not a credible source
>
> Yeah right.
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 00:23 GMT
> Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_:
>
> Like most angry books, this one contains a few facts onto which the
> authors pile false and misleading statements,

A few facts?  How about those quoted from "The Conduct of Federal
Troops in Louisiana" David C. Edmonds ed., The Acadiana Press;
Lafayette Louisiana 1988, which is reprinted from a report made by the
contemporary governor of the state documenting the atrocities of
Federal Troops on citizens of Louisiana?

Or how about the execution of 10 hostages by Federal Troops in Missouri
(over the dissapperance of a Federal informant, aka spy.) where Mr.
Lincoln soon after this mass murder which was reported with horror in
Britain and other places around the world, promoted the officer
(General McNeil) to Bigadier General? (Confederate Veteran, vol XXXVI,
No 1 Jan-Feb 1988 page 27)

Oh, by the way, spys were killed by both sides but I do not recall the
confederate side killing hostages in exchange for the execution of a
spy, let alone the dissapperence of one.  Lincoln promoted this
monster, where this execution was recent public knowledge, that would
have rated a hanging if he were a German General after WWII as did many
German officers for mistreatment of civilians.

Dare we ask what does this make Lincoln?

Since you would no doubt claim this a fabrication here is a 100%
independent source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McNeil

----------------quote-----------------
The Palmyra Massacre
His subsequent campaign in Monroe County, Missouri, was also regarded
by some as excessively brutal and indiscriminate. He himself said that
"where a Union man could not live in peace, a secessionist should
not." He concluded his campaign on September 14, taking Palmyra after
its abandonment by Porter, and avenging the abduction and presumptive
murder of Union loyalist (and alleged informer) Andrew Allsman by
executing ten Confederate prisoners in what came to be known as the
"Palmyra Massacre." McNeil was criticized even by Union sympathizers
for the act, and excoriated in the American and European press.
-------end quote---------------

Or the use of Confederate POWs as human shields?  (Confederate Veteran,
vol XXXIV, No 1 Jan-Feb 1986 page 7)

Of course I am sure you will claim confederate veteran is biased as a
source, so how about the facts cited from "Official Records: War of the
Rebellion" which documents numeous rapes and many other atrocities
against southern civilians black and white by UNION troops?  Are you
going to claim the US government lied about the behavior of it's own
troops?  Are these all made up citations?  I see several pages of
citations to those federal documents in "The South Was Right!".

These are "a few facts"?  That book has 28 pages of end notes citing
the specific refernces to these "few facts" where each page has about
22 specific citations or approximatly 600 specific citations.  That is
not counting the seperate bibliography.

Few facts indeed.
HankC - 02 Oct 2006 16:31 GMT
> > Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> (General McNeil) to Bigadier General? (Confederate Veteran, vol XXXVI,
> No 1 Jan-Feb 1988 page 27)

It should be noted that McNeill commanded troops of the Missouri State
Militia and not of the United States...

HankC
Alfred Montestruc - 04 Oct 2006 09:35 GMT
> > > Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> It should be noted that McNeill commanded troops of the Missouri State
> Militia and not of the United States...

At that time, yes.  IIRC he was given command of other units, after
Lincoln approved his promotion.  So what?
Alfred Montestruc - 05 Oct 2006 19:42 GMT
> Here is what RIchard McMurray had tosay about _The South Was Right!_:
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> secession arguably so, but both were so wrong and so stupid that there
> are no sound grounds on which either can be defended.

This is absurd.

While in the end slavery is wrong, asserting the people who by accident
of history grew up in a society where slave owning was legal and the
primary means of economic and social advancement stupid, is itself
stupid.

Pose a plausible means of the slave owners (or a fraction of them)
ending slavery that does not impoverish the slave owners as a class and
cause them to lose all they had gained.

Human being operate on a basis of self-interest and interest of close
kin and then other folks, anything else is hogwash.

As to secession, it is a very intelligent solution to a society with
two or more atagonistic groups where some preexisting  see India and
Pakistan, or the break-up of the Soviet Union.

> The time has come for us white Southerners to admit that our
> Confederate ancestors -- most whom were brave, admirable, honorable
> people devoted to their homes, families and cause - were in the wrong.

Explicitly how?  Pose a plausible path.

> _The South Was Right!_ is an exercise in unproductive bitterness.

I have read the book and do not see the bitterness. I see an ernest
intent to return power to the people, and sells books!

---snip
ray o'hara - 06 Oct 2006 02:53 GMT
> > ......
> > None of these truths, however, alters that fact that on both of the two
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> primary means of economic and social advancement stupid, is itself
> stupid.

western world opinion was against slavery. the south was fighting the
modern world in trying to preserve it. if they had had any sense they would
have been looking for a way out that didn't disrupt things. the north was
willing to let time take its course the south tried to hold on the to the
past and pretend things would never change. it was the souths bad choices
that ended slavery abruptly.

> Pose a plausible means of the slave owners (or a fraction of them)
> ending slavery that does not impoverish the slave owners as a class and
> cause them to lose all they had gained.

the south resisted all attempts at that discussion, gradual emancipation had
worked well in the north..
compensated emancipation was also brought up.
when such matters were discussed the south fell back on arguments about the
social aspects of slavery needing to be maintained.
plenty of methods were in play. but the south was not in a listening mood.

> Human being operate on a basis of self-interest and interest of close
> kin and then other folks, anything else is hogwash.

the trick being knowing what that  that self-interest is. starting a war
proved to be not in their best interest.
self-interest does not mean holding on to the past with a fanatical grip,
sometimes it means you have to adapt to a changing world..

> As to secession, it is a very intelligent solution to a society with
> two or more atagonistic groups where some preexisting  see India and
> Pakistan, or the break-up of the Soviet Union.

the differences between muslim pakistan and hindu india were quite broad.
the soviet union was a collection of completely different countries with
different laguages, religions and customs.
the united states was made up of one liguistic group sharing similar
customs, religion and hertage.

india and the pakis have fought several wars and are always on the verge of
war. russia is still trying to maintain their grip on several of thew
remaing "republics" and it is interfering in the internal affairs of others,

> > The time has come for us white Southerners to admit that our
> > Confederate ancestors -- most whom were brave, admirable, honorable
> > people devoted to their homes, families and cause - were in the wrong.
>
> Explicitly how?  Pose a plausible path.

gradual emancipation. compensated emancipation. there were many paths. the
south resisted any talk of them.
they considered  "African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper
status of the negro in our form of civilization".
such attitudes were not going to be changed easily.

> > _The South Was Right!_ is an exercise in unproductive bitterness.
>
> I have read the book and do not see the bitterness. I see an ernest
> intent to return power to the people, and sells books!

we know you don't al. it is not an attempt to return power to the people. it
is an attempt to turn the clock back to more repressive times.
its funny how libertarians claim tobe for personal liberty when all they
ever advocate is a system of economic slavery.
Robert Kolker - 06 Oct 2006 15:24 GMT
>  western world opinion was against slavery. the south was fighting the
> modern world in trying to preserve it. if they had had any sense they would
> have been looking for a way out that didn't disrupt things. the north was
> willing to let time take its course the south tried to hold on the to the
> past and pretend things would never change. it was the souths bad choices
> that ended slavery abruptly.

Had the Southrons been more farsighted and less ideologically commited
to (so-called) State's Rights, they could have negotiated a partial
subsidy for a long term manumission of the slaves. For example agreeing
to a definite date, say Jan 1, 1901 for total manumission, they could
have gotten most of the value back on their slaves (from labor and
subsidy) and have done with slavery in the next generation. That would
have provided time to get used to a new social order.

In the mean time the Southrons could have let their slaves take on wage
labor in the territories and gotten back a percentage of the wages as an
 agency fee. Thus as slavery wound down, it would have paid for its own
liquidation. It sure beats war and hundreds of thousands dead.

Given that Southron whites and negroes lived (unequally) cheek to jowl,
as the social order changed negroes could have been peacefully
integrated into the Southron social order without the stain of slavery.
A system of education provided to the children of slaves could have
conducted them into a livable relationship with Southron whites. It
would not have been social equality exactly, but it would have been a
humane transformation. It sure would have been better than what happened
at Selma.

Just about any choice was better than the Civil War. Think of 620,000
souls not destroyed and a century and a half of rancor to follow. If the
Southrons could manage their own transition to modernity they would not
have the humiliation of military defeat haunting them and the
generations to follow. It was not until after WW2 that Southrons more or
less reconciled themselves to modern times. Southron boys in the armed
forces socializing and fighting (and sometimes dying) with Yankees
against a common foe did a lot to put the pain of defeat into the past.
Anyway, that is my scenario of how slavery might have ended in the U.S.

Bob Kolker
cncfixxer - 02 Oct 2006 02:30 GMT
This jury sounds undecided regarding the question of legality.

We live under the same Constitution so the Litmus test should be the same
today as it was then .Not! ... because, the Justice's of the Supreme Court
are and always have been swayed by personal opinion.  This ebb and tide can
be seen by the dozens of rulings the Supreme Court has reversed itself, so
in my opinion if we want to figure out how the Constitutionality may have
been settled let's look at contemporary rulings of the Pre Civil War Court,
{Dred Scott v Standford,was the most famous}... it was a slam dunk for at
least 5 of the Justice's.  Chief Justice Roger B. Taney  ruled that blacks
were not citizens and therefore could not sue in federal court. Taney
further inflamed antislavery forces by declaring that Congress had no right
to ban slavery from U.S. territories.

It makes me wonder why the Southern States failed to persue a legal remedy.

It sounds too simple ...what am I missing?    Did they try to prevail in the
Courts?

Tom
Alfred Montestruc - 02 Oct 2006 14:51 GMT
> This jury sounds undecided regarding the question of legality.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> It makes me wonder why the Southern States failed to persue a legal remedy.

It was not up to them to challenge the legality of their own actions.
If the president felt their actions improper he should have taken them
to court.

> It sounds too simple ...what am I missing?    Did they try to prevail in the
> Courts?
>
> Tom
S Witmer - 02 Oct 2006 16:31 GMT
> > This jury sounds undecided regarding the question of legality.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> If the president felt their actions improper he should have taken them
> to court.

And of course we all know the proper thing to do when someone is
attacking you with deadly force is to ask them to step on down to the
courthouse with you so you can file charges...

<snip>
wjyoung - 30 Sep 2006 23:46 GMT
>>>Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
>>>out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> and papers were sanctioned, but many more were not.  The opposition
> press was very active and vocal throughout the war.

Doesn't the First Amendment bar Congress from sanctioning even one
editor or newspaper?
Alfred Montestruc - 01 Oct 2006 13:00 GMT
> >>>Secession was not obviously legal in 1860-61 - indeed, as it turned
> >>>out there were a lot more folk who believed that secession was illegal
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Doesn't the First Amendment bar Congress from sanctioning even one
> editor or newspaper?

http://www.constitution.org/billofr_.htm

You mean:

---------quote----
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to
assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
-------------end quote---------

Well

1) It was not (initially) congress that was doing it, it was the
president's men.

2) They were not concerned with legalitieis and arrested and imprisoned
(and searched their property and siezed any papers or other stuff they
though subversive) folks because they thought they should be locked up
and had no warrents, nor trials or any nonsense like that (Badges, we
don't need no steeenking Badges!!)

So they were violating more the following:

------------quote
Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause,
supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place
to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V]

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in
cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in
actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be
subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or
limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness
against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without
due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use,
without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a
speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district
wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have
been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature
and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses
against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his
favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

---------end quote.

No public trial, no warrent, no charges even.  Just like the bunch of
fascists the Republicans were.
Huddleston.r@comcast.net - 01 Oct 2006 17:30 GMT
Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
years whenever white Southerners thought that a particular magazine or
newspaper might contain ANY story the slightest bit critical of the
Peculiar Institution.

Take care,

Bob

Judy and Bob Huddleston
10643 Sperry Street
Northglenn, CO  80234-3612
huddleston.r@comcast.net

..the greatest and the noblest man of the last century was Abraham
Lincoln...Though America was his motherland and he was an American, he
regarded the whole world as his native land.

                    Mahatma Gandhi, August 26, 1905

SNIP
> > > This kind of thing is often asserted, but is nonetheless not true. There
> > > was no "heavy handed control of media" by the Republicans.  Some editors
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> > Doesn't the First Amendment bar Congress from sanctioning even one
> > editor or newspaper?

SNIP
> Well
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> So they were violating more the following:
SNIP
> ---------end quote.
>
> No public trial, no warrent, no charges even.  Just like the bunch of
> fascists the Republicans were.
wjyoung - 02 Oct 2006 00:23 GMT
> Alfred conveniently forgets that the slave states had been censoring
> and shutting down not only the press but also the US Mails for forty
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Bob

Hello Bob,

We were discussing whether the actions of the US, specifically the
President of the US, ran afoul the First Amendment.  As Alfred noted,
the President was not enforcing the law as he sanctioned newspaper
editors, and thus it could not be true that Congress violated the First
Amendment since Congress was not involved with those actions.

As for your comment, the First Amendment only restrains the lawmaking
power of Congress.  It does not bar the States from making law that
abridges the freedom of speech or of the press.
S Witmer - 02 Oct 2006 14:34 GMT
> > Alfred conveniently f