History Forum / War History / World War II / July 2008

I don't think anything sinister did happen, in general, but at that time
who knew?  The Allies were feeling increasingly suspicious from about
the Warsaw uprising on, and nobody really wanted to take chances.

Of course, the Nazis distrusted the Soviets even more; Dad was marched
away from his prison camp, ostensibly to keep him from the Soviets, but
he always referred to it as a death march.

On Jul 5, 11:42 am, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:

There was a flurry of reports about the Sovs detaining some Western
PoWs that came out after the demise of the USSR, but I don't know if
anything has been done since to confirm or deny them.  In one specific
case-- the (as far as I know unique) airlift of US and UK/C PoWs who
had been held in Stalag Luft I at Barth-- there may have been a high-
level political deal made in connection with the prompt repatriation
of Vlasov and his men to Soviet hands. Or maybe not . . .

Narr

"Why does the fiction make more sense than reality?"
I think that most who read both books, would accept this.
I am quite sure I could explain it, but doing so in
economical use of time and words - - ?
((PS note - I blew that one!))
(This will teach me, what I already pretty much follow,
to never even mention a rare "fiction read" on this ng.!!
I try to avoid creating false memories, in myself and others.)

Perhaps quickest way is to just ask you to
explain a good logical reason ("sense") for
the 'real life' raid that "was the first total loss of
such a large task force from the 4th Armored" ((Div.))
((slight correction to this statement from the book -
at least one person managed to evade capture and
sneak back and safely enter Allied lines)).

The best defense Patton could come up with for it,
given total hindsight, after main facts were in,
-was it was a "diversionary raid".
Well, sorta OK, after the fact, , , turns out it did really seem
to divert German attention, -- however, completely lost the
US force (294 men, 53 vehicles, plus some POWs
((Patton's s-i-l was shot in the hip, nearly fatal / perminent,
but he got badly wounded by this attempt to free him early.)) )

In general, the priority of US and UK fighting forces
was placed on attacking the remaining German military
strength and on siezing important objectives to win the
whole war quickly.  When that accomplished quickly,
everything else would sort out quickly.  This diviated.
Seems like nowhere else, was a priority placed on
getting to a POW camp.

I think it's also worth noting, from another source
("Patton, Ordeal and Triumph" by Ladislas Farago)
Ike "was becoming increasingly exasperated with Patton's
recurring antics. --- baffling change had come over Patton.  
Something was driving him into callous and arbitrary acts:
he was arrogating undue privledges to himself --
reckless arrogance."
"The latest cycle ((in Patton's decline)) had begun on
April 18th, ((long after raid, even long after s-i-l liberated))
when Patton fired a SHAEF censor (over whom he had no
authority) for having passed a story about the ill-starred
Hammelburg raid."  
Clearly Patton did many things to quash the spread of
knowledge of this raid.
He clearly either greatly danced with semantics, or
lied about it.
In the end of it all, he got relieved, got a command way down.

Well, first off Mr. Black, note that the word "sinister" is
your creation, not mine.  
However, In some regards (esp. see the part 2), I think
one could make a defense of that word - that I did not use.

1.  First, the risk of going from area controled by Germany into
official/documented Russian control.
The Russian assault troops did not have the same general
attitude and leadership offered by US products of Academies  
and OCS.
The Russian front line assault troops on the push through
Poland and eastern Germany, were -- well, rather callous
about lives and nicety.  Plenty of evidence of them, when
in doubt killing.  Plenty of evidence of even clearly
non combatants being abused.  

2.  Then the issue of being returned by the ally USSR, to US control.  
(Schucks, disgusted with myself, thought refinding a quote
and a clear source I read recently would be easy, take 10 min.
now I've wasted many hours in 3 books, this from "Raid".)
2A.  General John R. Deane was the head of the US Military
Mission in Moscow.  He was "deeply annoyed" by the
Russians delaying and NKVD interrogating and interning
returning Americans.
(You might read Deane's "Strange Alliance", 1973.)
Four US POWs slipped away from the march from
the Szubin oflag to the Hammelburg oflag.  They headed
east.  They were able to safely enter Russian control, and
"were packed off to a displaced persons camp near Warsaw
where conditions were more intolerable than the Szubin oflag.  
The Americans shared unheated barraks with Jews, Italians, Poles,
- every one of whom had dysentery, tapeworm or pneumonia.
The food was soup; there was no bread --.  Eventually the
Americans were crammed into boxcars and transported
to Odessa, where Gen Deane claimed them.
By now the general was less than amazed to learn ---
that there were not 350 unclaimed Americans in Poland
and Russia, but 3,600."

2B. Specific & related, from a book by Harclerode,
"three British officers, Col Marko Hudson, Maj. Kemp
& Solly-Flood, ---- In mid-January 1945 (they) made
their way to the nearest Soviet headquarters where they
were promptly placed under house arrest and kept on a diet
of bread and water, being interrogated by the Soviets --.
On 12 Feb they were dispatched to Moscow, --
subsequently -- returned to Britian."

Certainly there were plenty of cases of individuals
'disappearing' into NKVD control.  Some for years, some
forever.   Many were total 'unknowns'.  Some like
Wallenburg, had people in the US/UK caring about them.  
There have been concerns, that some US/UK citizens also
disappeared.

Seemingly unrelated to above true story, a separate true story fact:
After the Germans found the evidence at the Katyn Forest,
(the Soviets after conquering 'their half' of Poland, separated
out the officers/inteligencia and masacured over 20,000
of them) they did get at least two senior US officers from
their POW camps (attempt to get credibility and impartiality)
to view the 'impartial/neutral' forensic investigation.
During the war the Allies all put up a united front, in officially
sticking to the line, that this was all a German propaganda lie,
and refused to acknowledge that the Soviets very intentionally
killed these thousands of POWs.
Of course, it turns out, that:
1.  Not everything your enemy says - is a lie.
2.  Not everything your ally says - is the truth.
3.  In certain cases - your enemy can show some honor.
4.  In certain cases - your ally can do horrible things.
After the war, we now know, the Soviets after consideration,
did intentionally kill a great number of the future Polish leading class
(including like 14 year old Polish military cadets & doctors).

In conclusion, the wisdom of the great majority at the
time, was it was better to fall into US/UK control on the West,
rather than USSR control on the Eastern Front.

Temporarily, but the rescue column was ambushed on the way back
and he was seriously wounded.  He survived.

or was he executed by the Nazis after

No, although I'm not thoroughly familiar with the details I know
of no illegal German actions.

Any decent biography of Patton will cover this, and we had a
discussion in this newsgroup not too long ago.

"brandon" <brandon_z2003@yahoo.com> wrote

(more accurate numbers inserted above)

"Why?"
I was not sure many interested, also limited time.

What happened?
It twists with lots of details.
In short, Col John Waters (the s-i-l) got shot in the hip
as the TF descended on the oflag.
Taken to the POW hospital, saved his life, and
luckily -  much later - totally healed.
So, he never got to try for freedom with the small TF
(note - "try", they ((TF & the few POWs who went with
them)) were very soon captured/recaptured).
Waters was still there when the camp was liberated
on 6 April.  Special attention - Patton's personal physician
Major Odom was present, within hours 2 piper cubs
flew Odom and Waters out.  The rest were left for quite
a while, and the "speedy evacuation" "did not sit well with
-- the other patients" (included the TF commander).

(For many that were not in the hospital, they were
earlier moved to a POW compound at Moosburg
- and this book does not give a date for it's liberation.
((But, google - wiki Moosburg, gives 29 April 45.))  )

As to the part I snipped,
I'll make a broad statement:
Especially at this stage of the war, the majority of
German commanders and troops understood the
reality, and the implications, and tried to treat US/UK
POWs decently and keep them safe.