> enabled the IJN to probably sink more than one USN carrier. After
> the few minutes had passed the morning battle outcome was out of
> Nagumo's hands.
> Post Midway? Yes.
>
> Pre Midway? No on a strategic and tactical level.
> The Aleutians were part of the outer perimeter.
> Midway was trying to force the USN to fight.
>>> Why did the IJN split up its carrier group after Pearl Harbor?
>>
>> For the Coral Sea it was called using the appropriate amount
>> of force based on the expected opposition.
>>
> Which was dead wrong strategic thinking.
No. Those carriers, like all warships, had maintenance
requirements, keeping them all at sea was an effort.
Over and above that was the need for flight decks to complete
the training of the airgroups.
Commanders that order the entire fleet to sink an enemy barge
do not last long.
Or as one story from Normandy has it Warspite made it clear
after a few shots that 15 inch shells are not for trying to kill
a German on a bicycle.
> The big advantage the Japanese had was the large unified carrier
> force. Without that, they were generally inferior to the Allied
> navies.
In early to mid 1942 they had more carriers than the USN,
more operational battleships in the Pacific and more cruisers,
possibly more destroyers as well. The USN felt it had to
hold forces in the Atlantic for defence and also operations
like the projected invasion of France and then Torch.
> They had no chance to recreate it once broken, as the
> US (in particular) would do so first.
I presume the final sentence means the USN was the most
dangerous enemy for the IJN.
> Therefore, there were two appropriate levels of carrier commitment:
> yes and no. If an operation didn't require carriers, fine.
No. On the all or nothing criteria the answer is everything
commits or nothing, in order to minimise friendly losses and
maximise enemy losses. Think for example the way Japanese
forces actually boarded Hornet, thanks mainly to their superiority
in surface forces at the time. Think of Yamamoto's order to go
back and make sure the USN ships were sunk at Coral Sea
So the entire fleet sorties backed up by land based forces.
Anything else is "appropriate size of force", which is a judgement
call.
> The
> Japanese could even send light carriers out.
No that involves the risk of defeat in detail and loses flight decks
that were a better use of resources for training. Given their
aircraft capacity they were in trouble against even a small allied
airfield's worth of aircraft.
> If it required fleet
> carriers in any number, it was because of serious expected opposition.
And at Coral Sea the IJN intelligence expected a single USN
carrier to be the opposition.
> That meant the carriers themselves were at risk, and therefore all
> the carriers should be committed.
This is rather circular. Think of it another way, in June 1944
allied planners assume another 50 German divisions would be
sent to France from various other fronts, the Germans conceding
those fronts in order to ensure a victory in France. Worst case
scenario ideas. So no Overlord until 1945, until the invasion
is large enough.
> Otherwise, what happens is that an appropriate amount of force
> goes out, finds opposition it can deal with, takes losses, the
> Japanese carrier force is smaller for now, and risks defeat in
> detail.
Alternatively the restraints on all or nothing is the Japanese are
limited to a few operations each year giving the enemy plenty
of time to build up strength and fortify forward bases. And it
was known time favoured the allies. The Japanese had little
ability to assault defended beaches which meant strong allied
bases needed to be cut off for prolonged periods.
>> If 8 operational IJN carriers had turned up in the Nagumo force
>> at Midway despite the USN assuming 4 or 5 would that qualify
>> as a half USN response?
>>
> There's a difference between an offensive and a defensive operation.
No. It would be a half USN response.
> The Japanese were not being pulled off balance by Allied actions until
> the Doolittle raid, and then Guadalcanal. Until then, the pace of
> operations was entirely dictated by the Japanese.
The Japanese were not pulled of balance by Doolittle, the plans
for Midway were well on the way, the Doolittle raid swung more
support behind the existing plan.
> The USN sent what it could to defend Midway.
Correct, and came close to defeat, despite the advantages of long
range air searches.
>> The carrier left behind was rebuilding its air group, IJN doctrine at
>> the time was the air group and carrier were the one unit.
>>
> Which was one of the problems. Yorktown had taken serious losses, but
> got something of a scratch air group assembled, which performed quite
> well in combat.
Sorry, in the all or nothing strategy the IJN carrier air groups must
also be in peak condition, scratch air groups make the sorts of
mistakes that result in defeat in detail, rather than mounting properly
co-ordinated strikes for maximum effect with minimum losses.
Think of how well co-ordinated the USN strikes at Midway were.
Think if the dive bombers from Enterprise had made the same decision
as Hornet's and soon.
> Strategically, what this means is that it was easier to cripple a
> Japanese carrier. Zuikaku took heavy aircraft losses, and missed
> Midway. Yorktown took fairly serious damage and heavy aircraft
> losses, and didn't.
The USN knew there was a major operation against Midway, the
IJN assumed secrecy. The IJN assumed it had sunk or crippled
two carriers at Coral Sea, the USN knew different. The IJN
made an estimate of enemy strength that was wrong, the USN
made an estimate that was more correct (at least for the carriers,
it really underestimated the number of IJN battleships present).
Admittedly the Wildcats for a start were in short supply but the key
losses were aircrew, not aircraft, and did the USN lose that many
aircrew at Coral Sea? It also had a "spare" air group, now that
Lexington was sunk.
>> Again it was sending what was predicted to be the appropriate
>> force. Of course if it was supposed to be a decisive battle then
>> yes, it does seem strange to leave Zuikaku behind.
>>
> The appropriate force is whatever will definitely win, and I
> think it clear that neither Coral Sea nor Midway qualified.
If IJN intelligence was correct the answer is the force levels
sent qualify.
> Sending out force considered to be probably appropriate for the
> mission if nothing unforeseen happens means sometimes sending
> out too weak a force, and losing.
In all battle plans something unforseen happens. Nagumo takes
6 carriers to Midway, 2 of them collide in the fog. Does the
operation proceed?
The search planes leave late, and so on.
> The one thing the Japanese carrier forces had to do was *not* *lose*.
As in take a small number of casualties versus their opponents.
> It would take well over a year for the USN to even match the Kido
> Butai, even under the best of circumstances, and the Japanese could
> do a lot until then.
No. Not on an all or nothing operation, the resources and planning
required and the need for maintenance and so on ensure the IJN
is restricted.
>>> Nagumo and Yamamoto are not censured for the defeat -
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> That's one arguably bad decision, yes. However, it's based on earlier
> decisions that set up that decision.
They always are.
One of the best ways to look at history is read air crash investigations,
the final decision is the one that occurs before the crash, that final
decision
is built on previous actions and decisions. You usually end up with pilot
error as the cause if you only look at the final decision, but a lot of
other
reasons if you look at the chain of events and decisions.
In most cases an almost trivial change in one of the actions and/or
decisions results in a radically different outcome.
> There's a book, "Midway Inquest", by Isom, that treats this in detail.
> The author is more of a lawyer than a historian, and tries legal
> investigative and analytic procedures to figure out who's to blame
> and why. (It's the first time I've seen the word "probative" in a
> military history book.)
Seems like he was looking for a conviction.
> Isom blames Yamamoto for not making sure Nagumo was informed of the
> intelligence results he was getting. The Midway plan included a
> lot of checks to make sure the USN wasn't going to intervene
> prematurely, including a submarine picket line and an aerial recon
> flight over Pearl Harbor. None of this worked as planned, and
> Nagumo was ignorant of that.
Yet in Shattered Sword the authors conclude the Yamamoto
withheld intelligence idea to be one of the myths. Is the idea
the failure of operation K was only sent to Yamamoto, not as
a fleet broadcast so all commands would know?
Is there a message only to Yamamoto about the submarine
squadron's tardy arrival on station or did in fact their command
not bother to tell anyone else of their late arrival? As per
Shattered Sword.
> He also blames Nagumo for the decision to rearm the torpedo bombers
> in the first place. Nagumo had been ordered to reserve bombers to
> attack US ships, should they appear, and with that decision he
> set himself up for helplessness should the US carriers appear.
So Nagumo does what? Ignore the visible enemy on the assumption
there is another force out there?
So Spruance withholds the strike because only 2 IJN carriers had been
found when 4 or 5 were expected? Similar for Fletcher?
Given Nagumo knew he had been spotted he could assume as time
went on the probability of USN forces appearing would grow. Midway
knocked out or in Japanese hands would be a major boost for the IJN.
Now add the time it took the IJN to refuel, rearm and launch its aircraft.
So if he had waited until he had an anti ship strike ready to go as well
as an anti Midway strike he was probably only going to be able to do
one more strike that day.
Again Isom's ideas seem to run contrary to those in Shattered Sword.
> One thing that Isom doesn't blame Nagumo for is Nagumo's failure to
> monitor the search planes more directly. As we all know, the US
> carriers were spotted by a scout plane from Tone that got off late.
> This didn't delay the sighting, which was made on the return leg,
> and apparently the Tone plane didn't go out all the way.
I note the authors of Shattered Sword came to the conclusion that
whatever the assigned sectors of the critical IJN search aircraft they
appear to have managed to end up outside them.
> What happened is that the Tone plane communicated with Tone, and that
> the sighting was relayed using the usual communication channels to
> Nagumo, who therefore got it a lot later than he could have.
Sent at 07.28 according to the composite log worked up post battle,
sent at about 07.40 according to the USN intercepts, and by 07.47
Akagi had radioed the plane "retain contact", which was sent in the
clear, as monitored by the USN. The 07.28 appears to be when
the search plane first saw USN ships, which it then circled to figure
out what was present before coding and sending a report.
> There
> is evidence in the book that Yamaguchi, commanding the Second
> Carrier Division, got the information a lot earlier, presumably
> by listening into the frequency himself.
Not that much sooner it seems.
> This also brings up a third issue. It's quite possible that all of
> this was inevitable, given Akagi's thoroughly inadequate communication
> and command facilities.
Shattered Sword go for the command facilities as they did not
permit private conversations. The enlisted men on the bridge
could overhear things. Made it hard to tell the Admiral he was
wrong.
> Couldn't Nagumo have done something about that?
> Was he doomed to share a command area about as big as my living and
> dining room combined with ship operations, with bad antennas? Or
> could he have done something about that?
The direct answer is no. Short of Nagumo using a battleship
as a flagship, and that has its own set of delays.
>> If he had committed to that strike that would have
>> enabled the IJN to probably sink more than one USN carrier. After
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Isom tried to come up with a most likely outcome, given that Nagumo had
> not given the order to rearm the torpedo planes.
That is not the key decision, that falls to the decision to whether a
non optimum strike should be launched, given, if Shattered Sword
is to be believed, about two thirds of the torpedo bombers were
still armed with torpedoes.
> What he came up with
> was all three US carriers sunk, Kaga and Soryu sunk, Akagi crippled
> but recoverable, and Hiryu intact. This seems reasonable to me,
> although hardly inevitable; it's possible, for example, that the US
> would have only lost two carriers.
It comes back to whether the hypothetical IJN first strike finds
Enterprise and Hornet or just Yorktown.
> Where he went wrong is in assuming overly great Japanese offensive
> capability afterwards. I don't think the Japanese would have taken
> Midway with only one intact fleet carrier.
Shattered Sword concludes the amphibious force lacked the numbers
and support to win the landing, even if the USN had been defeated.
> Nor do I think they could
> have attacked Hawaii successfully. In particular, they could not
> have blockaded the islands successfully.
The entire IJN submarine force around the islands and in their
communication links would have been an interesting fight given the
events in the Atlantic at the time. The submarine blockade would
need to be supported by raids I suppose, but the reality was Oahu
was simply too strong to invade.
>> In any case from the IJN point of view it was clear the USN had
>> discovered the plan and that, along with luck, was the reason for
>> the defeat.
>>
> The Japanese plan contained measures to make sure that what historically
> happened didn't.
Yes.
If the IJN submarines had been on station on time they would still
have been too late according to Shattered Sword.
Operation K was for 31 May, Enterprise and Hornet had sailed on
29 May, Yorktown on 30 May. Thanks to the USN having an idea
of what was going to happen.
> It didn't depend on the US being ignorant and
> unprepared to avoid defeat, although it did have certain expectations
> to capture Midway.
It made assumptions on how quickly the USN could react and
what force level would compel the USN to avoid battle.
The USN knew enough to react before the IJN outer searches
were in place.
> No operation should depend on obscurity to avoid a crushing strategic
> defeat.
Secrecy is required. Send the Germans the location of the allied landing
beaches in France and see what happens, even if only a few days before
6 June.
(pre Midway strategy)
>> Post Midway? Yes.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> What was Japan to do?
Make the allies make peace with the axis powers.
> Once you
>> assume there is a way to force a peace conference that is, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Right. This meant that the Japanese had to be able to show the US
> that continuing the war wasn't going to work.
War with the axis actually.
After all the US had not taken over all of Mexico, or Spain. WWI
had ended with a peace conference, not total occupation of Germany.
The central powers were left to form their own new governments.
The usual swapping of border territories, colonies and monies had
occurred.
>> The overall strategy was clear enough, take the outer perimeter
>> and then force the USN to fight as soon as possible while the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> There was no such thing as "the" outer perimeter, and any reasonable
> one was going to be quite weak.
Are we talking Yamamoto or the non Yamamoto strategy?
Yamamoto was all for fighting the USN, this required operations
to force the USN to fight. The non Yamamoto strategy was to
expand to about where the Japanese ended up, build up the key
bases and defeat the allies as they tried to take those bases.
There were few areas in the South Pacific that had the anchorages
or the areas to build airfields. The idea the US had the engineering
ability it did took a while for even the US to believe.
Yamamoto's strategy had the problem of logistics, if the Japanese
kept winning they had more forces further out to supply. The
non Yamamoto strategy had the problem of handing the initiative to
the allies. Who could wait until they had enough force.
The final problem of Yamamoto's strategy was the key USN base
in the Pacific, Oahu, was beyond Japanese ability to take unless it
could be starved out, which would require major IJN actions over
a prolonged period of time, most of which would be successful.
> A major base like Rabaul could not
> necessarily win against a US carrier.
As of 1942 the assumption by the USN at least was the land base
would win.
> This meant that the USN had to be forced to fight on Japanese terms.
Correct.
> This meant continuing Japanese attacks until they reached somewhere
> the US was going to have to fight.
The islands north of Australia and on the US Australia links seem to
have worked quite well.
After all as of 1942 it was still USN doctrine carriers could not take on
land based airpower. If that was really true then the way to Tokyo was
from Australia, through the islands, to the Philippines
> This meant expanding the perimeter further, and conducting offensive
> operations further and further afield. Expanding the perimeter simply
> made it weaker, and made it vital to defeat the USN more decisively.
Yet by definition unless the USN refused battle, the expansion was
the result of winning battles.
The upside of this was allied submarines would be less able to attack
Japanese shipping to South East Asia and the allies would probably drain
their submarine strength on defensive operations.
> This meant conducting larger and larger offensives against more and
> more distant objectives until something snapped. As any student of
> strategy should see, it's not necessarily clear what will snap, and
> on what side.
Correct, it comes down to how big the Japanese win, which gives
them the ability to keep attacking or not.
> Since the Japanese had no clear idea of what they were doing, or how
> to avoid the strategic issues here, I'd say that Japanese strategy
> was thoroughly muddled.
No it was clear enough, the assumption was they would win quite
well, and this was further based on the results to early May 1942.
And they could not be deterred by one battle where they probably
won anyway, 1 baby carrier to 2 US fleet carriers at Coral Sea.
>> The force
>> to fight was Yamamoto's change over the older strategy of
>> defeating attacks on the perimeter.
>
> Which wasn't going to work, and Yamamoto (and Nagano) knew it.
Yamamoto was realistic, but also it was the strategy that gave
the IJN its best chance, keep defeating the US and something
had to give. Either in Europe or in Asia. In any case the further
out the allies started the longer it would take them to make it
to Japan and the more time Japan had to "do something"
> If
> the Japanese established a defensive perimeter and waited, the US
> was eventually going to show up in overwhelming force, and break
> through.
Correct.
Now if the Tarawa invasion was the cheapest of the USN central
Pacific invasions how far does that attack progress? Regardless
of the size of the USN.
If some USN carriers are regularly badly hurt if they operate within
range of Japanese land based aircraft what happens to the central
Pacific drive? Say the carrier attrition rate as per Okinawa and
Iwo Jima.
> Historically, the Allies managed to get some offensive
> action going around August 1942, and got an unstoppable juggernaut
> going something over a year after that.
Correct.
>> By the way this is the logical
>> explanation of a collection of ideas that were not always expressed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Right. You have explained the ideas more clearly than the Japanese
> did, and they still don't work.
Incorrect.
>> So the Indian Ocean was to ensure Burma would be occupied,
>> and sink British shipping.
>
> Irrelevant. The Japanese didn't need Burma, and didn't need to
> sink British shipping. Burma didn't protect anything important,
> and its only real use was for possible attacks on India.
Burma had oil and was the world's biggest rice exporter pre war.
It formed the outer perimeter of the Japanese defences in the area
as well. Keeping allied bombers away from the main oil fields.
>> Coral Sea was an attempt to secure Port Moresby, part of the
>> outer perimeter.
>
> And not enough of the perimeter. It would have to be expanded
> from there.
Quite correct, and if Coral Sea had been 1 Japanese light carrier to
2 USN fleet carriers the perimeter could have been expanded.
>> The Aleutians were part of the outer perimeter.
>
> For no particularly good reason.
Both sides knew it was the shortest way between them.
Both sides underestimated the effects of weather on operations
until the results of the actual fighting and trying to build bases
there came in.
>> Midway was trying to force the USN to fight.
>>
> And to extend the perimeter. Not to mention the idiocy involved in
> trying to force the USN to fight while committing significant forces
> to a subsidiary operation (the Aleutians attack).
Appropriate force to the central Pacific, the USN then cannot
react heavily against an invasion of sacred American soil. So
less force was needed to accomplish a desired mission.
>> The Midway plan as bad, assuming surprise would be achieved
>> and the USN had to be lured into combat. This meant on day 1
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> carriers just couldn't make it. Yamamoto disregarded that minor
> detail.
The problems of major operations with ships coming from many
different directions. It is impressive the IJN was so confident it
seems to have wanted the US to discover the operation a day
early relative to the IJN carrier moves.
>> By mid 1942 the IJN had decided they really were better man
>> for man than the USN, so 4 carriers at Midway was considered
>> enough, and indeed more may have meant the USN declining the
>> battle, not what the Japanese wanted.
>>
> The USN wasn't going to stay home,
If Nagumo had turned up with 6 carriers are you so sure? Nimitz
knew how hard it was for Japan to hold and exploit Midway.
> having just started to learn
> that maybe they weren't really better man or man than the IJN.
At that point in time the answer appears to be IJN superior but
the Japanese cold not sustain it.
> Both navies started with attitudes of superiority.
Yes, hence some really big blunders.
>> By the way if the IJN had learned about the Guadalcanal
>> invasion and ambushed the USN carriers on day 1, would the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> The US was right at Guadalcanal. The Japanese were wrong at Midway.
So if the USN dive bomber strikes had missed at Midway the USN
plan was wrong?
> Further, since the US was better at security and intelligence than
> the Japanese were, there were reasons why this was the case.
Of course, how exactly did the USN know for sure the Japanese
were not reading some of its codes? And that Midway was a
trap on a larger scale than the fragmentary intercepts revealed?
> However, there are lots of cases in military history where the
> criticism depends on the results. What would we think of the
> von Manstein plan if the German motorized infantry had made it
> across the Meuse, only to be wiped out in a series of French
> counterattacks, possibly taking some of the tanks with them?
Correct.
>>> How can such an organization that trains so hard, and be so tactically
>>> skilled - make such incredibly stupid strategic blunders?
>>
> By focussing on what they did well, and ignoring inconvenient
> realities.
How about by ultimately being pushed by the system into a war
against too much enemy power. Look at all the bad tactics
and strategy exposed in the 1939 to 1942 period by all nations.
> The IJN had a history of looking for gimmicks to even up the odds.
Gimmicks? The ones listed below are quite reasonable improvements
in combat efficiency.
> (See "Kaigun" by Evans and Peattie.) Some of these contradicted
> each other: the tactical gimmick of firing torpedos at very
> short range (which worked fine against the Russians in 1904-05)
> conflicted with the technical gimmick of the very-long-range torpedo.
How about the reality fire controls had improved and so forced
longer range torpedo attacks?
> Some of them were potentially useful (additional speed in battleships),
> some probably useless (the extremely long range on their battleship
> guns), and some very useful (Japanese training in night fighting).
>
> Pretty much all of these applied to the tactical battle, and the
> approach was destructive to real strategic thinking.
The Japanese had a strategy that the tactics worked within, the
better torpedoes and night fighting were quite effective, the USN
meeting the IJN at night in early 1942 would be rather bad for
the USN in most encounters. With the superior naval air force
the Japanese could ensure they were indeed better man for man
day or night.
The arrival of radar curtailed the night fighting advantage, the
willingness of the allies to learn from their experiences ensured
other advantages were reduced. Inability to replace losses
ensured the quality of Japanese forces declined rapidly once
they took anything more than light losses.
The one major strategy the IJN did obviously miss was commerce
warfare, forcing the USN to escort convoys in the Pacific would
have been a major advantage to the axis.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
David H Thornley - 29 Jul 2008 05:10 GMT
>>>> Why did the IJN split up its carrier group after Pearl Harbor?
>>> For the Coral Sea it was called using the appropriate amount
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No. Those carriers, like all warships, had maintenance
> requirements, keeping them all at sea was an effort.
Well, yes. Of course, all the Japanese had to do was expose them
to superior force, and all the maintenance worries would be over.
Permanently.
> Over and above that was the need for flight decks to complete
> the training of the airgroups.
Which the Japanese had. How many countries diverted fleet
carriers for training purposes? The Japanese really only
needed one light carrier for that, and they had several
available.
> Commanders that order the entire fleet to sink an enemy barge
> do not last long.
You know, you never struck me as the straw-man type until recently.
The strategy I am proposing is that the Japanese fleet carriers
go nowhere in smaller formations, but only en masse. Now, I would
think that a mere division of heavy cruisers would be able to
sink a barge, so what does this have to do with carrier commitment?
> Or as one story from Normandy has it Warspite made it clear
> after a few shots that 15 inch shells are not for trying to kill
> a German on a bicycle.
But all they need is one hit....
Anyway, what does this have to do with anything I was saying? The
little stuff doesn't need any sort of carrier. The big stuff can
be attacked sequentially.
>> The big advantage the Japanese had was the large unified carrier
>> force. Without that, they were generally inferior to the Allied
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> more operational battleships in the Pacific and more cruisers,
> possibly more destroyers as well.
That doesn't particularly matter. The carriers were the important
part. After all, the US had built six new battleships by the
end of 1942, and the cruisers were coming out in force, and the
US and Australia had significant land-based air forces.
With carrier superiority, the Japanese could attack pretty much
where they wanted, but without it they were greatly restricted.
The USN felt it had to
> hold forces in the Atlantic for defence and also operations
> like the projected invasion of France and then Torch.
Not all that much.
>> They had no chance to recreate it once broken, as the
>> US (in particular) would do so first.
>
> I presume the final sentence means the USN was the most
> dangerous enemy for the IJN.
Certainly.
Once the Japanese lost Kido Butai, regardless of how much damage was
inflicted on US carriers, they had lost the initiative and most of
the hope they had for the war.
In 1943, the US would amass enough carrier force to take the
offensive, provided the Japanese had been at least somewhat weakened.
In 1942, both the US and the Japanese lost four fleet carriers, leaving
the situation favorable to the US.
>> Therefore, there were two appropriate levels of carrier commitment:
>> yes and no. If an operation didn't require carriers, fine.
>
> No. On the all or nothing criteria the answer is everything
> commits or nothing, in order to minimise friendly losses and
> maximise enemy losses.
You seem to have an odd all-or-nothing criterion. Mine is that the
Japanese sortie all available fleet carriers or none at all. That
keeps the carriers as immune to defeat as practical while allowing
operations to proceed.
> So the entire fleet sorties backed up by land based forces.
> Anything else is "appropriate size of force", which is a judgement
> call.
Which is your strategy, not mine. Feel free to defend it, but arguing
against it is an entire waste of time.
>> If it required fleet
>> carriers in any number, it was because of serious expected opposition.
>
> And at Coral Sea the IJN intelligence expected a single USN
> carrier to be the opposition.
And they were wrong.
They would be wrong every so often, and every so often would
lay themselves open to defeat by detail. The Japanese got away
with it for the second attack on Wake, but if Pye had been a good
commander they might have had Hiryu and Soryu fighting two US
carriers.
Any time they split off a smaller number of carriers, they were
risking a defeat from a locally superior force. One such defeat
and the whole force could be vulnerable to defeat, and then the
Japanese strategy could only turn defensive.
>> That meant the carriers themselves were at risk, and therefore all
>> the carriers should be committed.
>
> This is rather circular.
Why?
The carriers are vulnerable in smaller groups, almost invulnerable
in larger. The more carriers together, the less risk to them. The
alternative is no fleet carriers, which has even less risk.
[straw man snipped]
>> Otherwise, what happens is that an appropriate amount of force
>> goes out, finds opposition it can deal with, takes losses, the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> limited to a few operations each year giving the enemy plenty
> of time to build up strength and fortify forward bases.
Define "few". The Japanese carriers were quite active, and there
were plenty of operations that could be launched without them.
They didn't need carriers to advance all the way down the Solomons,
for example.
They needed carriers when they might face strong USN opposition,
and that's exactly what they wanted the carriers for.
>> There's a difference between an offensive and a defensive operation.
>
> No. It would be a half USN response.
No, you're completely missing the point of the initiative.
If the Japanese have the initiative, they can attack under the
circumstances of their choosing, and the US has to respond however
the US can.
Moreover, the US did not have the same imperative to conserve carriers.
The US could wind up with carrier inferiority in 1942 and still win
the war. The same was not true of the Japanese.
Therefore, you seem to be arguing that two situations, considerably
dif