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Why was the IJN was muddle headed?

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YMC - 24 Jul 2008 16:45 GMT
Why did the IJN split up its carrier group after Pearl Harbor?

It seemed undecided - it went on a rampage in the Indian Ocean - then
doubled back - launched a half-a.s attack on Port Morseby with 2 fleet
carriers - and lost a small carrier and nearly lost the Shokaku. Then sent 4
fleet carriers to attack Midway and another two smal carriers to the
Aleutains on a seperate attack- whilst leaving 1 undamaged fleet carrier
behind. Nagumo and Yamamoto are not censured for the defeat - whilst the
survivors of the battle are virtually locked away to prevent news of the
disaster from leaking out. The Japanese Army isn't even informed that the
IJN lost until much later, 1943?

It all seems very muddled headed.

Meanwhile, they didn't bother with merchant shipping protection and so all
the precious resources which they aimed to capture - could hardly be brought
back to Japan.

How can such an organization that trains so hard, and be so tactically
skilled - make such incredibly stupid strategic blunders?
Scott M. Kozel - 24 Jul 2008 23:07 GMT
> Why did the IJN split up its carrier group after Pearl Harbor?
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> How can such an organization that trains so hard, and be so tactically
> skilled - make such incredibly stupid strategic blunders?

I recommend getting the book, _Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the
Battle of Midway_, by Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully.
http://www.shatteredswordbook.com/index.htm

It answers those questions in very great depth.

Excerpt:

At a deeper level, though, it is important to clarify that the defeat at
Midway was not just the product of flawed decisions by a handful of men
at the top.  Likewise, Admiral Nagumo's command decisions on the day of
the battle, which have widely been held up as having been the reason for
Japan's defeat, were not solely to blame, either.  Instead, we will show
that Yamamoto, Nagumo, and indeed all the Japanese forces involved,
suffered from deep-seated flaws that were a product of the Imperial
Navy's strategic outlooks, doctrinal tenets, and institutional
cultures.  This is not to say that individual mistakes were not made,
but these mistakes must be understood within the proper context.  In
fact, contrary to the prevailing wisdom, the seeds of Japan's defeat at
Midway were not planted in the six months of easy Japanese victories
that led up to the battle, but had instead been sown in the very
earliest days of the Imperial Navy's development.
Chris Morton - 25 Jul 2008 05:45 GMT
>Excerpt:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Navy's strategic outlooks, doctrinal tenets, and institutional
>cultures.

The fundamental and insurmountable problems for the Japanese were:

1. They in a physical sense, could not win the war so long as the United States
resolved to fight it.  They could NEVER match the United States' productive
power.  The United States had the virtually unlimited ability to do with
technology, what the Soviets did to the Germans with human bodies, namely drown
them in abundance which they could not hope to match.

2. Much of their "strategy" was premised on wishful thinking, fantasy and
self-deception.  They could not hope to beat the United States unless the US
just gave up and went home.  Therefore, that's what was assumed would happen.
Just like the Japanese army and its imaginary road over the Owen Stanley
Mountains, the Japanese navy simply existed on self-serving assumptions,
completely divorced from reality.  By the time of the reconquest of the
Filippines, this had gone into the shredder... but they still went blithely on.
By the time the "decisive engagement" came about, they had almost nothing with
which to fight it.  Their technical skills were so degraded, their technology so
outdated and overmatched and their thinking so muddled that they deluded
themselves into believing that the Taffeys were Halsey and his fleet.  It was
like a pride of lions, bloodied and bewildered, fleeing in disarray from a pack
of fearless chihuahuas.

The fundamental premise of the war, from the very beginning in China was flawed
and anti-rational.  Everything after that point was as the English say, "a
nonsense".

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David H Thornley - 25 Jul 2008 13:41 GMT
> 1. They in a physical sense, could not win the war so long as the United States
> resolved to fight it.

Which is why the surprise attack was such a bad idea.  It gave the US
more resolve.

> 2. Much of their "strategy" was premised on wishful thinking, fantasy and
> self-deception.

Not necessarily; I haven't figured out what.  The most important
Japanese admirals (Yamamoto and Nagano) both expressed opinions on
the future course of the war that were surprisingly accurate.  This
didn't stop anybody, and didn't seem to change their attitudes.

(Yamamoto, the admiral most familiar with the US, was the one who
insisted on the Pearl Harbor attack.  He seems to have been
missing something.)

By the time of the reconquest of the
> Filippines, this had gone into the shredder... but they still went blithely on.
> By the time the "decisive engagement" came about, they had almost nothing with
> which to fight it.

Actually, no.  The decisive engagement had been the Battle of the
Philippine Sea, during the US invasion of the Marianas.  The Japanese
lost very decisively.  One of the considerations in the Battle of Leyte
Gulf was to provide a way for the Navy to die honorably.

> The fundamental premise of the war, from the very beginning in China was flawed
> and anti-rational.  Everything after that point was as the English say, "a
> nonsense".

Not that I've heard that phrase used by the English, but that's a pretty
accurate description.  Rationality turned into "thought crime", which
was treated particularly harshly.

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Marvin - 25 Jul 2008 16:02 GMT
><snip>
> Actually, no.  The decisive engagement had been the Battle of the
> Philippine Sea, during the US invasion of the Marianas.  The Japanese
> lost very decisively.  One of the considerations in the Battle of Leyte
> Gulf was to provide a way for the Navy to die honorably.
<snip>
One important factor was the inability of Japanese Navy
units to coordinate directly; all communications had to go
through Tokyo.  At Leyte, the plan was to have two
battleship groups enter the gulf at the same time, through
channels north and south of Leyte island.  Actions by the
army and air groups were also part of the plan.  The
northern naval group was delayed, and the coordination was
lost.  And the air and ground actions didn't happen until
much later.

The Japanese had accurate information about US ships in the
gulf.  In the first days after the landing, I saw a lone
Japanese plane fly over the ships off the beach every
afternoon, and get away unscathed.
narrledudh@hotmail.com - 25 Jul 2008 16:03 GMT
C. Morton:
> > The fundamental premise of the war, from the very beginning in China was flawed
> > and anti-rational.  Everything after that point was as the English say, "a
> > nonsense".

D. Thornley:
> Not that I've heard that phrase used by the English, but that's a pretty
> accurate description.  Rationality turned into "thought crime", which
> was treated particularly harshly.

H.P. Wilmot, in a lecture in late 2001, said (paraphrased) that
"Japanese grand strategy and war effort made those of the Southern
Confederacy look like a model of good sense and effectiveness in
comparison."

Narr
lesliemills2002@netscape.net - 25 Jul 2008 18:55 GMT
> > 1. They in a physical sense, could not win the war so long as the United States
> > resolved to fight it.

> Which is why the surprise attack was such a bad idea.  It gave the US
> more resolve.

Well, earlier surprise attacks by the Japanese did not have such long
term consequences, such as their attack of the Russian fleet at Port
Arthur.

Also, the IJN's second Big Decisive Battle against the Russian Baltic
fleet was seen as effectively winning them the war.  It is not as if
Japan's Big Decisive Battle concept had no historical basis.

Japan had resolved to expand southward, and concluded the US would not
tolerate that move.  Rather than wait for the US to further fortify
the Phillipines and declare war on its own initiative, they decided to
strike then while Japan held the advantage.  Then, after perhaps
another one or two Big Decisive Battles, the beaten US would come to
the table like the Russians did.

> > 2. Much of their "strategy" was premised on wishful thinking, fantasy and
> > self-deception.

Pre-war, the IJN was primarily designed to win the decisive engagement
against one European/US power, with either the neutrality or active
support of the other powers.  After seeing the lightening-like
victories Hitler was scoring, the Army faction was convinced boldness
trumped caution, and since the IJN was largely unengaged...

> Not necessarily; I haven't figured out what.  The most important
> Japanese admirals (Yamamoto and Nagano) both expressed opinions on
> the future course of the war that were surprisingly accurate.  This
> didn't stop anybody, and didn't seem to change their attitudes.

To further complicate matters, when the leadership council met on the
matter regarding a possible war against the US, the civilian faction
was against it (they were already overstretched against the Chinese),
the Army faction was for it, while the Navy faction secretly
encouraged the civilian faction's actions, but limited its own
statement to "if we have to fight the US we will have to do it now."
When directly asked if Japan could win a war with the US, the navy
faction simply repeated the statement.

It seems to me the IJN was more concerned with not looking like wimps
to the Army rather than avoiding a war that could doom the entire
empire.

> (Yamamoto, the admiral most familiar with the US, was the one who
> insisted on the Pearl Harbor attack.  He seems to have been
> missing something.)

Please remember the IJN would attack other US targets simultaneously.
Pearl Harbor just happened to be the most daring target.

> >  By the time of the reconquest of the
> > Filippines, this had gone into the shredder... but they still went blithely on.
> > By the time the "decisive engagement" came about, they had almost nothing with
> > which to fight it.

> Actually, no.  The decisive engagement had been the Battle of the
> Philippine Sea, during the US invasion of the Marianas.  The Japanese
> lost very decisively.

It is a matter of interpretation.  The IJN air force was in no longer
in any shape to fight the USN before the battle, due to the attrition
of Guadalcanal and the Solomans campaigns.  The Great Marianas Turkey
Shoot merely shredded the Japanese illusion of Japanese quality
overcoming US quantity.

However, since most of their surface fleet was still intact, and
building another amateur air wing was relatively cheap, the IJN still
held the illusion they could recoup before the US could invade again,
particularly after the damaged they supposedly suffered at the
Marianas.

The start of Leyte destroyed the hope of Japan replacing the remains
of their air arm, and the battle itself shattered the IJN illusion of
stalemating the USN.  The IJA would cultivate their own illusion until
the end of the war.

> One of the considerations in the Battle of Leyte
> Gulf was to provide a way for the Navy to die honorably.

A phrase you do not want to read in a battle plan (that actually was
in the IJN plan): "You must remember that miracles do happen."

> > The fundamental premise of the war, from the very beginning in China was flawed
> > and anti-rational.  Everything after that point was as the English say, "a
> > nonsense".

> Not that I've heard that phrase used by the English, but that's a pretty
> accurate description.  Rationality turned into "thought crime", which
> was treated particularly harshly.

(rest of post deleted)

Since various IJA societies had a reputation of murdering people who
were insufficiently patriotic, it was hard to openly discuss the full
range of alternatives.  Consequently, when it came to figuring out how
to end the China incident, nobody was willing to suggest that it would
be better to withdraw to Manchuria rather than expand the conflict.
YMC - 26 Jul 2008 05:40 GMT
<lesliemills2002@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:4603a0d3-56bd-4905-98e1-

> A phrase you do not want to read in a battle plan (that actually was
> in the IJN plan): "You must remember that miracles do happen."

Cite please!!! That's a fantastic quote.

I had this image of the entire Japanese Naval staff breaking out in song -
singing the Prince of Egypt theme song "When you Believe." Just kidding.
Chris Morton - 29 Jul 2008 16:04 GMT
><lesliemills2002@netscape.net> wrote in message
>news:4603a0d3-56bd-4905-98e1-
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Cite please!!! That's a fantastic quote.

I just read the same quote in Max Hastings' "Retribution", a very interesting
read, despite some annoying proofreading problems.

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Rich Rostrom - 29 Jul 2008 21:52 GMT
>>> "You must remember that miracles do happen."
>>
>>Cite please!!! That's a fantastic quote.
>
>I just read the same quote in Max Hastings' "Retribution"...

Yabbut _where_?

I would also note that during the period
covered by _Retribution_, Japanese planning
is explicitly desperate - that line may
well have been gallows humor.
| People say "There's a Stradivarius for sale for a  |
| million," and you say "Oh, really? What's wrong    |
| with it?" - Yitzhak Perlman                        |
Chris Morton - 30 Jul 2008 16:28 GMT
>>>> "You must remember that miracles do happen."
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Yabbut _where_?

Page 134, Paragraph 3:

"Vice Admiral Takeo Kurita, designated as operational commander, made the best
case he could for the operation.  'Would it not be shameful', he demanded at his
captains' final briefing, 'for the fleet to remain intact while our nation
perishes?  There are such things as miracles.'"

>I would also note that during the period
>covered by _Retribution_, Japanese planning
>is explicitly desperate - that line may
>well have been gallows humor.

That doesn't sound like "gallows humor" to me.  It sounds like grasping at
straws, burning straws, contaminated with dioxin and plutonium.

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lesliemills2002@netscape.net - 12 Aug 2008 16:53 GMT
> <lesliemills2...@netscape.net> wrote in message

(stuff deleted)

> > A phrase you do not want to read in a battle plan (that actually was
> > in the IJN plan): "You must remember that miracles do happen."

> Cite please!!! That's a fantastic quote.

IIRC, "Japanese High Seas Fleet" was the title of at least one of the
books that quoted that phrase (I recall reading two books relating the
same phrase).  It does do a good job of explaining the IJN mindset by
1944.  It also helps to explain why they would plan on sacrificing the
remains of their carrier fleet in hopes of foiling the US retaking the
Phillipines.

> I had this image of the entire Japanese Naval staff breaking out in song -
> singing the Prince of Egypt theme song "When you Believe." Just kidding.

Some other possible songs the IJN could sympathize with:
 - Brother Could You Spare me a Dime?
 - Am I Blue?
 - Sad Songs (Say so Much)
 - Bury Me Not (on the Lone Prarie)

My apologies to the moderators.  I'm getting off topic again.
Andrew M. Carroll, Esquire - 27 Jul 2008 19:45 GMT
> > 1. They in a physical sense, could not win the war so long as the United States
> > resolved to fight it.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the future course of the war that were surprisingly accurate.  This
> didn't stop anybody, and didn't seem to change their attitudes.

If you are talking about at least Nagumo and Yamamato, I don't think
they ever changed their opinion of the final outcome of the war.
Granted, Yamamato was assasinated 17 months after Pearl, but, that
doesn't change the fact that both believed to the end that America
would utterly detroy them and their pugnatious, racist and
exploitative way of life,  the way we did in the end.  There were
several others who beleived up to the end that war w/ the US was a bad
idea, including Genda, probably also Nomura (diplomat, not IJN or IJA,
but a power player nonetheless), even Kuribayashi, who actually
studied in Canada.

However, their belief in the futility never detracted from their
ability follow Orders.

> (Yamamoto, the admiral most familiar with the US, was the one who
> insisted on the Pearl Harbor attack.  He seems to have been
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> David H. Thornley                        | If you want my opinion, ask.
> da...@thornley.net                       | If you don't, flee.http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/| O-
David H Thornley - 27 Jul 2008 20:12 GMT
>>> Not necessarily; I haven't figured out what.  The most important
>> Japanese admirals (Yamamoto and Nagano) both expressed opinions on
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If you are talking about at least Nagumo and Yamamato, I don't think
> they ever changed their opinion of the final outcome of the war.

Yamamoto, yes, but Nagano, instead of Nagumo.  Nagano was head of the
Japanese Navy.

> Granted, Yamamato was assasinated 17 months after Pearl,

No, he died in combat.  (Nagumo died in the US attack on the Marianas,
FWIW.)

but, that
> doesn't change the fact that both believed to the end that America
> would utterly detroy them and their pugnatious, racist and
> exploitative way of life,  the way we did in the end.

I haven't seen anything on that; perhaps you could provide sources.

In any event, there was one way to prevent the US from destroying
the militarist ruling culture of Japan:  don't fight it.  Roosevelt
was looking for a way to not have to fight the Japanese, so he could
concentrate on Germany.  The Japanese were determined not to give
him a way, but rather insisted on a war that ultimately, and
rather predictably, led to Japanese ruin.

 There were
> several others who beleived up to the end that war w/ the US was a bad
> idea, including Genda,

Where do you get this from?  Genda and Fuchida were not the most honest
of men, as you will learn if you study the Battle of Midway.

probably also Nomura (diplomat, not IJN or IJA,
> but a power player nonetheless), even Kuribayashi, who actually
> studied in Canada.
>
> However, their belief in the futility never detracted from their
> ability follow Orders.

Unfortunate, that.  I respect people more who refuse to lead their
countries down a path of utter destruction than those who just
follow orders.

Moreover, Yamamoto insisted on the Pearl Harbor attack, to the
point of threatening to resign.  If there was any hope of getting
out of the war short of utter defeat, the Pearl Harbor attack
destroyed it.

The sheer self-destructiveness shown by both Germany and Japan
in this period is mind-boggling.

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YMC - 28 Jul 2008 16:38 GMT
> Moreover, Yamamoto insisted on the Pearl Harbor attack, to the
> point of threatening to resign.  If there was any hope of getting
> out of the war short of utter defeat, the Pearl Harbor attack
> destroyed it.

For a person who is supposed to have a good understanding of American psyche
and culture - that decision to press for a pre-emptive strike seems
extremely stupid.

He should have simply gone to the Imperial Palace at dawn - pasted a
handdrawn message on the main door- outlining the reason why Japan could
never win - and committed sepukku.

Now that would have been great.
Chris Morton - 29 Jul 2008 16:04 GMT
>> Moreover, Yamamoto insisted on the Pearl Harbor attack, to the
>> point of threatening to resign.  If there was any hope of getting
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Now that would have been great.

Probably utterly futile, but great.

Faced with an irrevocable decision to follow a foolish policy, Yamamoto the
gambler bet the house on one roll of the dice (or one iaijutus draw of the
sword).  He knew that even if he was successful, it would only bring ultimate
failure.  But then Longstreet knew Pickett's charge would accomplish nothing but
shorten the dinner lines in the Confederate mess tents too.  He still ordered
the charge.  The only other choice was mutiny.  The time for THAT was 1936, not
December 1941.

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Chris Morton - 29 Jul 2008 16:04 GMT
>If you are talking about at least Nagumo and Yamamato, I don't think
>they ever changed their opinion of the final outcome of the war.

I think that Yamamoto knew that the whole thing was doomed from the start.
However, he was a team player and once the team decided to ram its collective
head against the goal post, he did his best to find a way, no matter how far
fetched, for them to knock the goal post down without killing themselves.  I
can't fault somebody in a no-win situation for not winning.

A quote from the TV show "Babylon 5", perfectly applicable to Yamamoto's
situation:

"The avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote."

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Christopher Manteuffel - 25 Jul 2008 16:26 GMT
>How can such an organization that trains so hard, and be so tactically
>skilled - make such incredibly stupid strategic blunders?

One of the best (English) accounts of the IJN's situation would be
H.P. Willmott's _Barrier and the Javelin_ (and _Empires in the
Balance_ about the very start of the War). He covers the IJN's
situation before Midway, which was basically, that all of their plans
had gone swimmingly, but they had no real ideas what to do next: they
couldn't switch to the defensive because that would ensure their loss,
but there were no more good targets for an offensive strike:
everything was too far away and required far too many troops to
capture. It is a really good book and I heartily recommend it.

One of the major problems was that the entire logic of the war didn't
make sense: Japan had defeated the Chinese military almost every time
they encountered it, but they were unable to bring the war to a
satisfactory conclusion. Having failed to defeat the weakest Pacific
power, they decided that an operation that involved taking on the two
strongest naval powers in the world would give them the resources
necessary to defeat China.

Well, then why were they so muddled? Because they got confused on
Clausewitz. The Japanese military had taken control of their
government (and it was firebrand extremist middle-ranking officers at
that) and instead of making war for political ends they did politics
in support of war- the war on China became the central driving
priority of all Japanese decision-making in this period.

Chris Manteuffel
Michael Emrys - 31 Jul 2008 12:55 GMT
> The Japanese military had taken control of their government (and it was
> firebrand extremist middle-ranking officers at that) and instead of
> making war for political ends they did politics in support of war...

This reminds me of the saying that people whose only tool is a hammer
tend to see every problem as a nail. It's also a good reason why
government by the military is generally to be avoided wherever possible.

Michael
Geoffrey Sinclair - 25 Jul 2008 16:26 GMT
> Why did the IJN split up its carrier group after Pearl Harbor?
>
> It seemed undecided - it went on a rampage in the Indian Ocean - then
> doubled back - launched a half-a.s attack on Port Morseby with 2 fleet
> carriers - and lost a small carrier and nearly lost the Shokaku.

For the Indian Ocean it was because Kaga ran aground and
needed repairs.

For the Coral Sea it was called using the appropriate amount
of force based on the expected opposition.

If 8 operational IJN carriers had turned up in the Nagumo force
at Midway despite the USN assuming 4 or 5 would that qualify
as a half USN response?

> Then sent 4 fleet carriers to attack Midway and another two smal carriers
> to the Aleutains on a seperate attack- whilst leaving 1 undamaged fleet
> carrier behind.

The carrier left behind was rebuilding its air group, IJN doctrine at
the time was the air group and carrier were the one unit.

Again it was sending what was predicted to be the appropriate
force.  Of course if it was supposed to be a decisive battle then
yes, it does seem strange to leave Zuikaku behind.

> Nagumo and Yamamoto are not censured for the defeat -

Nagumo had at most a few minutes to decide whether a sighting
report of USN surface ships justified sending a strike that would
be understrength as some of the torpedo bombers had been changed
to carry bombs.  If he had committed to that strike that would have
enabled the IJN to probably sink more than one USN carrier.  After
the few minutes had passed the morning battle outcome was out of
Nagumo's hands.

Censuring Yamamoto had to be done within the IJN only, the
public had been told he was a genius and the IJA could not be
allowed to know he had been censured.

In any case from the IJN point of view it was clear the USN had
discovered the plan and that, along with luck, was the reason for
the defeat.

> whilst the survivors of the battle are virtually locked away to prevent
> news of the disaster from leaking out.

Correct, it takes a while for nations at war to admit defeat.

It looks like removing the men from Japan had a higher priority
than assigning the men to duties similar to those they had done
on the carriers.  Really bad idea.

> The Japanese Army isn't even informed that the IJN lost until much later,
> 1943?

It was sooner than that, given the IJN had to admit why it could
not continue with offensive operations, like say attacking Fiji.

> It all seems very muddled headed.

Post Midway?  Yes.

Pre Midway?  No on a strategic and tactical level.  Once you
assume there is a way to force a peace conference that is, and
since Japan went to war knowing it could not invade the US the
goal was a peace conference.

The overall strategy was clear enough, take the outer perimeter
and then force the USN to fight as soon as possible while the
Japanese held a clear superiority in naval air power.  The force
to fight was Yamamoto's change over the older strategy of
defeating attacks on the perimeter.  By the way this is the logical
explanation of a collection of ideas that were not always expressed
as clearly or as fully and in come cases did assume things like Japan
would keep expanding "forever".

So the Indian Ocean was to ensure Burma would be occupied,
and sink British shipping.
Coral Sea was an attempt to secure Port Moresby, part of the
outer perimeter.
The Aleutians were part of the outer perimeter.
Midway was trying to force the USN to fight.

The Midway plan as bad, assuming surprise would be achieved
and the USN had to be lured into combat.  This meant on day 1
the IJN carriers found themselves tied to an overall plan that had
real problems when the USN was already present.  Just think if
day one had been devoted to ensuring no USN ships were present
in the area followed by an afternoon strike on Midway if the area
was clear.

By mid 1942 the IJN had decided they really were better man
for man than the USN, so 4 carriers at Midway was considered
enough, and indeed more may have meant the USN declining the
battle, not what the Japanese wanted.

The USN had learnt from the pre war exercised the carrier force
that saw the enemy first usually won.  And the long range patrol
aircraft at Midway gave the USN a very good chance it would
sight first, even before the  intelligence from code breaking was
taken into account.

The objective was also bad, the Japanese simply lacked the
strength to invade Oahu, which was the only way to really
threaten the US in the area.  Given how sensitive the USN
had been to operations north of Australia and the way taking
those areas would cause problems for the allied communication
lines it seems more obvious to continue operations to isolate
Australia.  Of course supplying areas even further beyond
the actual areas captured in 1942 was problematic but at least
the Japanese stood a chance of capturing the real estate and
forcing the USN to fight.

By the way if the IJN had learned about the Guadalcanal
invasion and ambushed the USN carriers on day 1, would the
same sort of criticisms be made against the USN?  Before the
first carrier battle off Guadalcanal US intelligence was saying
there were no IJN carriers in the area.

> Meanwhile, they didn't bother with merchant shipping protection and so all
> the precious resources which they aimed to capture - could hardly be
> brought back to Japan.

It was discovered in June 1942 there was not enough shipping to
exploit as well as defend the new empire.

Say defensive to a military and watch them come up with reasons to
avoid the topic.  The IJN was the most extreme of the navies.

Their lack of resources also meant it could have a good anti submarine
force and associated merchant shipbuilding industry or a battle fleet that
was big enough to take on the USN for a few (hopefully decisive) years
anyway, not both.

You know the syndrome, because you need something to happen you
assume it will happen, in Japan's case that the allies would concentrate
on fleet actions, and largely ignore commerce warfare.  Alternatively
your offensive operations stop most commerce warfare, note the
number of USN submarines deployed to defend the Aleutians and
Midway.

> How can such an organization that trains so hard, and be so tactically
> skilled - make such incredibly stupid strategic blunders?

This applies to plenty of organisations.  Could the defence of Malaya
and the Philippines have been much worse?

The Japanese were really in a no win situation, sooner or later their
luck would run out or alternatively the USN would simply turn up
with overwhelming force.

One of the reasons Yamamoto was rushing at Midway was trying
to make up for the 6 or so months when the IJN had to largely
ignore the USN while South East Asia was captured.  He knew
the IJN had to keep winning and winning early to have any chance
to convince America to come to a peace table.

Knowing they would be outnumbered by their opponents the
Japanese went to the extremes when it came to attacking doctrine,
after all standing on the defence was near guaranteed to result in a
Japanese loss.

On a strategic level the failure of the IJN and IJA to work together
well was a major handicap.  On the tactical level the lessons of the
wars with Russia and China were taken to indicate the power of
attack and the low casualty rates in China were used to frame
assumptions of casualties versus the rest of the world.  And for
the first 6 months of the Pacific war those assumptions appeared
to be reasonably correct.  The next tactical assumption was the
average Japanese military man was superior to any opponent, this
was mostly true again for the first 6 months of the Pacific war, look
at the overall results of the battles.

When it became clear the casualty rates and fighting power
assumptions were wrong then the institutional stupidity really
started, as miracle and one decisive battle became a sort of
mantra.  It is alright to lose all these battles as long as we win
the final one sort of ideas.

We need to win the war, therefore something will turn up to
make it happen.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
YMC - 26 Jul 2008 05:47 GMT
"Geoffrey Sinclair" <gsinclairnb@froggy.com.au> wrote in message
news:4889e843$0$20555$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-> The Midway plan as bad,
assuming surprise would be achieved
> and the USN had to be lured into combat.  This meant on day 1
> the IJN carriers found themselves tied to an overall plan that had
> real problems when the USN was already present.  Just think if
> day one had been devoted to ensuring no USN ships were present
> in the area followed by an afternoon strike on Midway if the area
> was clear.

What I found really perplexing is the fact that the IJN did not exploit
their aircraft's advantage in long range.

They could have sat comfortably 400 miles off Midway - and used their
carriers to pound the Midway - whilst at least being far enough to prevent
Midway's SBDs and Vindicators from attacking it. (but perhaps not the B-17s
of course).

Meanwhile the bulk of their BB force is somewhere at the back kept in
reserve. And two precious medium carriers are diverted to attack the
Aleutians on a seperate attack (not a feint).

> By mid 1942 the IJN had decided they really were better man
> for man than the USN, so 4 carriers at Midway was considered
> enough, and indeed more may have meant the USN declining the
> battle, not what the Japanese wanted.

But yes... victory disease and all that I guess.
deemsbill@aol.com - 26 Jul 2008 18:15 GMT
> What I found really perplexing is the fact that the IJN did not exploit
> their aircraft's advantage in long range.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Midway's SBDs and Vindicators from attacking it. (but perhaps not the B-17s
> of course).

           Just because they had the range, there would've been
tradeoffs involved. Longer range meant either less payloads or shorter
time over target....probably a bit of both. Also, it meant less
sorties in a given time period and the probability of greater losses
from operational problems and combat damage.'
           Remember, the IJN thought (assumed?) they had overwhelming
superiority. With this in mind, they chose to maximize their strike
capability while skimping a bit on defense.
            They thought they'd be facing, at most two US
carriers...they thought Yorktown was too badly damaged to be
available...and from their capabilities, they were correct.

> Meanwhile the bulk of their BB force is somewhere at the back kept in
> reserve. And two precious medium carriers are diverted to attack the
> Aleutians on a seperate attack (not a feint).

            The BBs were there to support the landings and to mop up
any USN ships that were stupid/unlucky. I think they were in the
proper place given the IJN's plans. The Aleutians campaign didn't
really take much away from Midway and had a decent chance of splitting
an already depleted USN.

> > By mid 1942 the IJN had decided they really were better man
> > for man than the USN, so 4 carriers at Midway was considered
> > enough, and indeed more may have meant the USN declining the
> > battle, not what the Japanese wanted.
>
> But yes... victory disease and all that I guess.

             Can you blame them? They'd pretty much steamrolled all
previous opposition. That's not the best assumption to make during a
war, but it's perfectly understandable.
             The value of being able to read IJN codes can't be
understated. It didn't win the battle, but it gave the USN a fighting
chance. It allowed the USN to be lurking in the vicinity and gave the
impetus needed to get the Yorktown operational.
YMC - 27 Jul 2008 19:41 GMT
> proper place given the IJN's plans. The Aleutians campaign didn't
> really take much away from Midway and had a decent chance of splitting
> an already depleted USN.

Just one small quibble. The Aleutian campaign for the IJN occured at around
the same time as the Midway campaign - and was not a feint - and could have
done nothing to split the USN.

The carriers Junyo and Ryuho which operated over 40 aircraft each were
involved in that operation. Both could have performed sterling work at
Midway.
deemsbill@aol.com - 27 Jul 2008 20:24 GMT
> Just one small quibble. The Aleutian campaign for the IJN occured at around
> the same time as the Midway campaign - and was not a feint - and could have
> done nothing to split the USN.

            It was part of the same overall operation. It wasn't a
feint per se because it was an actual invasion, but IJN planners hoped
the news that Japanese were landing on American soil would draw some
of the USN away from Midway. If the US wasn't reading Japanese codes,
it might have worked.

> The carriers Junyo and Ryuho which operated over 40 aircraft each were
> involved in that operation. Both could have performed sterling work at
> Midway.

          They could have. The might have changed the course of the
battle, or joined their larger sisters at the bottom of the Pacific.
David H Thornley - 27 Jul 2008 20:48 GMT
>              It was part of the same overall operation. It wasn't a
> feint per se because it was an actual invasion, but IJN planners hoped
> the news that Japanese were landing on American soil would draw some
> of the USN away from Midway. If the US wasn't reading Japanese codes,
> it might have worked.

Nope.  Read Parshall and Tully.

The original plan was for both attacks to begin on June 3, so there'd
be no hope of diverting forces to the Aleutians.  Moreover, if there
was going to be any diversion, the Aleutians operation would have
to start considerably earlier.  If the USN decided to intervene against
the Aleutians, they would spend the first day of actual steaming
getting very slightly closer to Midway.  Attacking the Aleutians
one day before Midway simply meant that the Aleutians operation
wouldn't be interfered with by major USN forces.

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David H Thornley - 26 Jul 2008 15:00 GMT
>> Why did the IJN split up its carrier group after Pearl Harbor?
>
> For the Coral Sea it was called using the appropriate amount
> of force based on the expected opposition.

Which was dead wrong strategic thinking.

The big advantage the Japanese had was the large unified carrier
force.  Without that, they were generally inferior to the Allied
navies.  They had no chance to recreate it once broken, as the
US (in particular) would do so first.

Therefore, there were two appropriate levels of carrier commitment:
yes and no.  If an operation didn't require carriers, fine.  The
Japanese could even send light carriers out.  If it required fleet
carriers in any number, it was because of serious expected opposition.
That meant the carriers themselves were at risk, and therefore all
the carriers should be committed.

Otherwise, what happens is that an appropriate amount of force
goes out, finds opposition it can deal with, takes losses, the
Japanese carrier force is smaller for now, and risks defeat in
detail.

> If 8 operational IJN carriers had turned up in the Nagumo force
> at Midway despite the USN assuming 4 or 5 would that qualify
> as a half USN response?

There's a difference between an offensive and a defensive operation.
The Japanese were not being pulled off balance by Allied actions until
the Doolittle raid, and then Guadalcanal.  Until then, the pace of
operations was entirely dictated by the Japanese.

The USN sent what it could to defend Midway.

> The carrier left behind was rebuilding its air group, IJN doctrine at
> the time was the air group and carrier were the one unit.

Which was one of the problems.  Yorktown had taken serious losses, but
got something of a scratch air group assembled, which performed quite
well in combat.

Strategically, what this means is that it was easier to cripple a
Japanese carrier.  Zuikaku took heavy aircraft losses, and missed
Midway.  Yorktown took fairly serious damage and heavy aircraft
losses, and didn't.

> Again it was sending what was predicted to be the appropriate
> force.  Of course if it was supposed to be a decisive battle then
> yes, it does seem strange to leave Zuikaku behind.

The appropriate force is whatever will definitely win, and I
think it clear that neither Coral Sea nor Midway qualified.
Sending out force considered to be probably appropriate for the
mission if nothing unforeseen happens means sometimes sending
out too weak a force, and losing.

The one thing the Japanese carrier forces had to do was *not* *lose*.
It would take well over a year for the USN to even match the Kido
Butai, even under the best of circumstances, and the Japanese could
do a lot until then.

>> Nagumo and Yamamoto are not censured for the defeat -
>
> Nagumo had at most a few minutes to decide whether a sighting
> report of USN surface ships justified sending a strike that would
> be understrength as some of the torpedo bombers had been changed
> to carry bombs.

That's one arguably bad decision, yes.  However, it's based on earlier
decisions that set up that decision.

There's a book, "Midway Inquest", by Isom, that treats this in detail.
The author is more of a lawyer than a historian, and tries legal
investigative and analytic procedures to figure out who's to blame
and why.  (It's the first time I've seen the word "probative" in a
military history book.)

Isom blames Yamamoto for not making sure Nagumo was informed of the
intelligence results he was getting.  The Midway plan included a
lot of checks to make sure the USN wasn't going to intervene
prematurely, including a submarine picket line and an aerial recon
flight over Pearl Harbor.  None of this worked as planned, and
Nagumo was ignorant of that.

He also blames Nagumo for the decision to rearm the torpedo bombers
in the first place.  Nagumo had been ordered to reserve bombers to
attack US ships, should they appear, and with that decision he
set himself up for helplessness should the US carriers appear.

One thing that Isom doesn't blame Nagumo for is Nagumo's failure to
monitor the search planes more directly.  As we all know, the US
carriers were spotted by a scout plane from Tone that got off late.
This didn't delay the sighting, which was made on the return leg,
and apparently the Tone plane didn't go out all the way.

What happened is that the Tone plane communicated with Tone, and that
the sighting was relayed using the usual communication channels to
Nagumo, who therefore got it a lot later than he could have.  There
is evidence in the book that Yamaguchi, commanding the Second
Carrier Division, got the information a lot earlier, presumably
by listening into the frequency himself.

This also brings up a third issue.  It's quite possible that all of
this was inevitable, given Akagi's thoroughly inadequate communication
and command facilities.  Couldn't Nagumo have done something about that?
Was he doomed to share a command area about as big as my living and
dining room combined with ship operations, with bad antennas?  Or
could he have done something about that?

If he had committed to that strike that would have
> enabled the IJN to probably sink more than one USN carrier.  After
> the few minutes had passed the morning battle outcome was out of
> Nagumo's hands.

Isom tried to come up with a most likely outcome, given that Nagumo had
not given the order to rearm the torpedo planes.  What he came up with
was all three US carriers sunk, Kaga and Soryu sunk, Akagi crippled
but recoverable, and Hiryu intact.  This seems reasonable to me,
although hardly inevitable; it's possible, for example, that the US
would have only lost two carriers.

Where he went wrong is in assuming overly great Japanese offensive
capability afterwards.  I don't think the Japanese would have taken
Midway with only one intact fleet carrier.  Nor do I think they could
have attacked Hawaii successfully.  In particular, they could not
have blockaded the islands successfully.

> In any case from the IJN point of view it was clear the USN had
> discovered the plan and that, along with luck, was the reason for
> the defeat.

The Japanese plan contained measures to make sure that what historically
happened didn't.  It didn't depend on the US being ignorant and
unprepared to avoid defeat, although it did have certain expectations
to capture Midway.

No operation should depend on obscurity to avoid a crushing strategic
defeat.

> Post Midway?  Yes.
>
> Pre Midway?  No on a strategic and tactical level.

I disagree.

What was Japan to do?

Once you
> assume there is a way to force a peace conference that is, and
> since Japan went to war knowing it could not invade the US the
> goal was a peace conference.

Right.  This meant that the Japanese had to be able to show the US
that continuing the war wasn't going to work.

> The overall strategy was clear enough, take the outer perimeter
> and then force the USN to fight as soon as possible while the
> Japanese held a clear superiority in naval air power.

Right, but you've glossed over one of the fundamental problems.

There was no such thing as "the" outer perimeter, and any reasonable
one was going to be quite weak.  A major base like Rabaul could not
necessarily win against a US carrier.

This meant that the USN had to be forced to fight on Japanese terms.

This meant continuing Japanese attacks until they reached somewhere
the US was going to have to fight.

This meant expanding the perimeter further, and conducting offensive
operations further and further afield.  Expanding the perimeter simply
made it weaker, and made it vital to defeat the USN more decisively.

This meant conducting larger and larger offensives against more and
more distant objectives until something snapped.  As any student of
strategy should see, it's not necessarily clear what will snap, and
on what side.

Since the Japanese had no clear idea of what they were doing, or how
to avoid the strategic issues here, I'd say that Japanese strategy
was thoroughly muddled.

 The force
> to fight was Yamamoto's change over the older strategy of
> defeating attacks on the perimeter.

Which wasn't going to work, and Yamamoto (and Nagano) knew it.  If
the Japanese established a defensive perimeter and waited, the US
was eventually going to show up in overwhelming force, and break
through.  Historically, the Allies managed to get some offensive
action going around August 1942, and got an unstoppable juggernaut
going something over a year after that.

 By the way this is the logical
> explanation of a collection of ideas that were not always expressed
> as clearly or as fully and in come cases did assume things like Japan
> would keep expanding "forever".

Right.  You have explained the ideas more clearly than the Japanese
did, and they still don't work.

> So the Indian Ocean was to ensure Burma would be occupied,
> and sink British shipping.

Irrelevant.  The Japanese didn't need Burma, and didn't need to
sink British shipping.  Burma didn't protect anything important,
and its only real use was for possible attacks on India.

> Coral Sea was an attempt to secure Port Moresby, part of the
> outer perimeter.

And not enough of the perimeter.  It would have to be expanded
from there.

> The Aleutians were part of the outer perimeter.

For no particularly good reason.

> Midway was trying to force the USN to fight.

And to extend the perimeter.  Not to mention the idiocy involved in
trying to force the USN to fight while committing significant forces
to a subsidiary operation (the Aleutians attack).

> The Midway plan as bad, assuming surprise would be achieved
> and the USN had to be lured into combat.  This meant on day 1
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> in the area followed by an afternoon strike on Midway if the area
> was clear.

One problem was that Nagumo was already late for the party.  Yamamoto
planned his carriers to arrive on the 3rd, but Nagumo's overworked
carriers just couldn't make it.  Yamamoto disregarded that minor
detail.

> By mid 1942 the IJN had decided they really were better man
> for man than the USN, so 4 carriers at Midway was considered
> enough, and indeed more may have meant the USN declining the
> battle, not what the Japanese wanted.

The USN wasn't going to stay home, having just started to learn
that maybe they weren't really better man or man than the IJN.
Both navies started with attitudes of superiority.

> By the way if the IJN had learned about the Guadalcanal
> invasion and ambushed the USN carriers on day 1, would the
> same sort of criticisms be made against the USN?  Before the
> first carrier battle off Guadalcanal US intelligence was saying
> there were no IJN carriers in the area.

Probably.  There's a difference here.

The US was right at Guadalcanal.  The Japanese were wrong at Midway.

Further, since the US was better at security and intelligence than
the Japanese were, there were reasons why this was the case.

However, there are lots of cases in military history where the
criticism depends on the results.  What would we think of the
von Manstein plan if the German motorized infantry had made it
across the Meuse, only to be wiped out in a series of French
counterattacks, possibly taking some of the tanks with them?

>> How can such an organization that trains so hard, and be so tactically
>> skilled - make such incredibly stupid strategic blunders?

By focussing on what they did well, and ignoring inconvenient
realities.

The IJN had a history of looking for gimmicks to even up the odds.
(See "Kaigun" by Evans and Peattie.)  Some of these contradicted
each other:  the tactical gimmick of firing torpedos at very
short range (which worked fine against the Russians in 1904-05)
conflicted with the technical gimmick of the very-long-range torpedo.
Some of them were potentially useful (additional speed in battleships),
some probably useless (the extremely long range on their battleship
guns), and some very useful (Japanese training in night fighting).

Pretty much all of these applied to the tactical battle, and the
approach was destructive to real strategic thinking.

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Rich Rostrom - 27 Jul 2008 16:37 GMT
>> So the Indian Ocean was to ensure Burma would be occupied,
>> and sink British shipping.
>
>Irrelevant.  The Japanese didn't need Burma, and didn't need to
>sink British shipping.  Burma didn't protect anything important,
>and its only real use was for possible attacks on India.

The Allied supply line to China
ran through Burma. By taking
Burma the Japanese greatly
weakened China, which was
strategically important to
them.

The Allies eventually overcame
this difficulty in part by the
enormous effort of the "Over the
Hump" airlift.

Counterfactuals can be a mug's
game, but consider the Pacific
war if Japan does _not_ occupy
Burma. ISTM that the Chinese
army could have been built up
for serious counterattacks.
Chiang's historic reluctance
was in part based on Chinese
shortages of everything.
| People say "There's a Stradivarius for sale for a  |
| million," and you say "Oh, really? What's wrong    |
| with it?" - Yitzhak Perlman                        |
deemsbill@aol.com - 27 Jul 2008 19:39 GMT
> Counterfactuals can be a mug's
> game, but consider the Pacific
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> shortages of everything.
> --

          While that's true, I think it also had to do with the fact
that Chiang didn't really trust his lieutenants or Chinese "allies".
He was reluctant to let any of them get too strong. Many Chinese
leaders seemed to regard the Japanese as an unwelcome diversion from
their main goal of fighting other Chinese.
David H Thornley - 27 Jul 2008 20:26 GMT
>> Irrelevant.  The Japanese didn't need Burma, and didn't need to
>> sink British shipping.  Burma didn't protect anything important,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> strategically important to
> them.

Except that they shut down most of their fighting in China for
the duration of the Pacific War.  They were quite capable of
limited offensives (after all, the Chinese were unlikely to
stop them), but there was no point to it.

By expanding the war, they pretty much decided to leave China
more or less as it was.

> Counterfactuals can be a mug's
> game, but consider the Pacific
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> was in part based on Chinese
> shortages of everything.

The other parts were that Chiang didn't trust most of
the theoretically Nationalist forces, was far more
interested in waging war against the Communist Chinese,
and didn't have much of an army in the first place.

The Chinese Army had had some fairly competent formations.
Most of these were destroyed in the Shanghai fighting,
and the rest had not fared well.

Moreover, suppose the Chinese do manage to make some
locally effective counterattacks.  How is this going to
change the strategic situation?  No matter how much
equipment poured in, the Chinese army was incapable of
major operations.

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YMC - 27 Jul 2008 19:41 GMT
>He also blames Nagumo for the decision to rearm the torpedo bombers
>in the first place.  Nagumo had been ordered to reserve bombers to
attack US ships, should they appear, and with that decision he
>set himself up for helplessness should the US carriers appear.

I think at that stage, the Kate bombers were still under decks - and it
would have taken sometime to get them up. At the same time, the 1st wave of
IJN attackers (who attacked Midway in the morning) were waiting to land.

> The IJN had a history of looking for gimmicks to even up the odds.
> (See "Kaigun" by Evans and Peattie.)  Some of these contradicted
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> some probably useless (the extremely long range on their battleship
> guns), and some very useful (Japanese training in night fighting).

The Japanese culture seems to have a fondness for gimmicks or special
weapons - ie the specially made Samurai sword which followed through in the
BB Yamato ethos, and if you follow modern Japanese manga a bit - the Gundam
series - where one side develops a special type weapon, the Gundam, which
heroically overcomes the odds.
David H Thornley - 27 Jul 2008 20:17 GMT
> I think at that stage, the Kate bombers were still under decks - and it
> would have taken sometime to get them up. At the same time, the 1st wave of
> IJN attackers (who attacked Midway in the morning) were waiting to land.

Isom is of the opinion that there was a window between attacks and
recovery in which Nagumo could have launched a strike.  I haven't
reviewed his timeline in detail, but I remember thinking that it
looked reasonable.

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Geoffrey Sinclair - 27 Jul 2008 20:38 GMT
>>> Why did the IJN split up its carrier group after Pearl Harbor?
>>
>> For the Coral Sea it was called using the appropriate amount
>> of force based on the expected opposition.
>>
> Which was dead wrong strategic thinking.

No.  Those carriers, like all warships, had maintenance
requirements, keeping them all at sea was an effort.

Over and above that was the need for flight decks to complete
the training of the airgroups.

Commanders that order the entire fleet to sink an enemy barge
do not last long.

Or as one story from Normandy has it Warspite made it clear
after a few shots that 15 inch shells are not for trying to kill
a German on a bicycle.

> The big advantage the Japanese had was the large unified carrier
> force.  Without that, they were generally inferior to the Allied
> navies.

In early to mid 1942 they had more carriers than the USN,
more operational battleships in the Pacific and more cruisers,
possibly more destroyers as well.  The USN felt it had to
hold forces in the Atlantic for defence and also operations
like the projected invasion of France and then Torch.

> They had no chance to recreate it once broken, as the
> US (in particular) would do so first.

I presume the final sentence means the USN was the most
dangerous enemy for the IJN.

> Therefore, there were two appropriate levels of carrier commitment:
> yes and no.  If an operation didn't require carriers, fine.

No.  On the all or nothing criteria the answer is everything
commits or nothing, in order to minimise friendly losses and
maximise enemy losses.  Think for example the way Japanese
forces actually boarded Hornet, thanks mainly to their superiority
in surface forces at the time.  Think of Yamamoto's order to go
back and make sure the USN ships were sunk at Coral Sea

So the entire fleet sorties backed up by land based forces.
Anything else is "appropriate size of force", which is a judgement
call.

> The
> Japanese could even send light carriers out.

No that involves the risk of defeat in detail and loses flight decks
that were a better use of resources for training.  Given their
aircraft capacity they were in trouble against even a small allied
airfield's worth of aircraft.

> If it required fleet
> carriers in any number, it was because of serious expected opposition.

And at Coral Sea the IJN intelligence expected a single USN
carrier to be the opposition.

> That meant the carriers themselves were at risk, and therefore all
> the carriers should be committed.

This is rather circular.  Think of it another way, in June 1944
allied planners assume another 50 German divisions would be
sent to France from various other fronts, the Germans conceding
those fronts in order to ensure a victory in France.  Worst case
scenario ideas.  So no Overlord until 1945, until the invasion
is large enough.

> Otherwise, what happens is that an appropriate amount of force
> goes out, finds opposition it can deal with, takes losses, the
> Japanese carrier force is smaller for now, and risks defeat in
> detail.

Alternatively the restraints on all or nothing is the Japanese are
limited to a few operations each year giving the enemy plenty
of time to build up strength and fortify forward bases.  And it
was known time favoured the allies.  The Japanese had little
ability to assault defended beaches which meant strong allied
bases needed to be cut off for prolonged periods.

>> If 8 operational IJN carriers had turned up in the Nagumo force
>> at Midway despite the USN assuming 4 or 5 would that qualify
>> as a half USN response?
>>
> There's a difference between an offensive and a defensive operation.

No.  It would be a half USN response.

> The Japanese were not being pulled off balance by Allied actions until
> the Doolittle raid, and then Guadalcanal.  Until then, the pace of
> operations was entirely dictated by the Japanese.

The Japanese were not pulled of balance by Doolittle, the plans
for Midway were well on the way, the Doolittle raid swung more
support behind the existing plan.

> The USN sent what it could to defend Midway.

Correct, and came close to defeat, despite the advantages of long
range air searches.

>> The carrier left behind was rebuilding its air group, IJN doctrine at
>> the time was the air group and carrier were the one unit.
>>
> Which was one of the problems.  Yorktown had taken serious losses, but
> got something of a scratch air group assembled, which performed quite
> well in combat.

Sorry, in the all or nothing strategy the IJN carrier air groups must
also be in peak condition, scratch air groups make the sorts of
mistakes that result in defeat in detail, rather than mounting properly
co-ordinated strikes for maximum effect with minimum losses.

Think of how well co-ordinated the USN strikes at Midway were.
Think if the dive bombers from Enterprise had made the same decision
as Hornet's and soon.

> Strategically, what this means is that it was easier to cripple a
> Japanese carrier.  Zuikaku took heavy aircraft losses, and missed
> Midway.  Yorktown took fairly serious damage and heavy aircraft
> losses, and didn't.

The USN knew there was a major operation against Midway, the
IJN assumed secrecy.  The IJN assumed it had sunk or crippled
two carriers at Coral Sea, the USN knew different.  The IJN
made an estimate of enemy strength that was wrong, the USN
made an estimate that was more correct (at least for the carriers,
it really underestimated the number of IJN battleships present).

Admittedly the Wildcats for a start were in short supply but the key
losses were aircrew, not aircraft, and did the USN lose that many
aircrew at Coral Sea?  It also had a "spare" air group, now that
Lexington was sunk.

>> Again it was sending what was predicted to be the appropriate
>> force.  Of course if it was supposed to be a decisive battle then
>> yes, it does seem strange to leave Zuikaku behind.
>>
> The appropriate force is whatever will definitely win, and I
> think it clear that neither Coral Sea nor Midway qualified.

If IJN intelligence was correct the answer is the force levels
sent qualify.

> Sending out force considered to be probably appropriate for the
> mission if nothing unforeseen happens means sometimes sending
> out too weak a force, and losing.

In all battle plans something unforseen happens.  Nagumo takes
6 carriers to Midway, 2 of them collide in the fog.  Does the
operation proceed?

The search planes leave late, and so on.

> The one thing the Japanese carrier forces had to do was *not* *lose*.

As in take a small number of casualties versus their opponents.

> It would take well over a year for the USN to even match the Kido
> Butai, even under the best of circumstances, and the Japanese could
> do a lot until then.

No.  Not on an all or nothing operation, the resources and planning
required and the need for maintenance and so on ensure the IJN
is restricted.

>>> Nagumo and Yamamoto are not censured for the defeat -
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> That's one arguably bad decision, yes.  However, it's based on earlier
> decisions that set up that decision.

They always are.

One of the best ways to look at history is read air crash investigations,
the final decision is the one that occurs before the crash, that final
decision
is built on previous actions and decisions.  You usually end up with pilot
error as the cause if you only look at the final decision, but a lot of
other
reasons if you look at the chain of events and decisions.

In most cases an almost trivial change in one of the actions and/or
decisions results in a radically different outcome.

> There's a book, "Midway Inquest", by Isom, that treats this in detail.
> The author is more of a lawyer than a historian, and tries legal
> investigative and analytic procedures to figure out who's to blame
> and why.  (It's the first time I've seen the word "probative" in a
> military history book.)

Seems like he was looking for a conviction.

> Isom blames Yamamoto for not making sure Nagumo was informed of the
> intelligence results he was getting.  The Midway plan included a
> lot of checks to make sure the USN wasn't going to intervene
> prematurely, including a submarine picket line and an aerial recon
> flight over Pearl Harbor.  None of this worked as planned, and
> Nagumo was ignorant of that.

Yet in Shattered Sword the authors conclude the Yamamoto
withheld intelligence idea to be one of the myths.  Is the idea
the failure of operation K was only sent to Yamamoto, not as
a fleet broadcast so all commands would know?

Is there a message only to Yamamoto about the submarine
squadron's tardy arrival on station or did in fact their command
not bother to tell anyone else of their late arrival?  As per
Shattered Sword.

> He also blames Nagumo for the decision to rearm the torpedo bombers
> in the first place.  Nagumo had been ordered to reserve bombers to
> attack US ships, should they appear, and with that decision he
> set himself up for helplessness should the US carriers appear.

So Nagumo does what?  Ignore the visible enemy on the assumption
there is another force out there?

So Spruance withholds the strike because only 2 IJN carriers had been
found when 4 or 5 were expected?  Similar for Fletcher?

Given Nagumo knew he had been spotted he could assume as time
went on the probability of USN forces appearing would grow.  Midway
knocked out or in Japanese hands would be a major boost for the IJN.
Now add the time it took the IJN to refuel, rearm and launch its aircraft.
So if he had waited until he had an anti ship strike ready to go as well
as an anti Midway strike he was probably only going to be able to do
one more strike that day.

Again Isom's ideas seem to run contrary to those in Shattered Sword.

> One thing that Isom doesn't blame Nagumo for is Nagumo's failure to
> monitor the search planes more directly.  As we all know, the US
> carriers were spotted by a scout plane from Tone that got off late.
> This didn't delay the sighting, which was made on the return leg,
> and apparently the Tone plane didn't go out all the way.

I note the authors of Shattered Sword came to the conclusion that
whatever the assigned sectors of the critical IJN search aircraft they
appear to have managed to end up outside them.

> What happened is that the Tone plane communicated with Tone, and that
> the sighting was relayed using the usual communication channels to
> Nagumo, who therefore got it a lot later than he could have.

Sent at 07.28 according to the composite log worked up post battle,
sent at about 07.40 according to the USN intercepts, and by 07.47
Akagi had radioed the plane "retain contact", which was sent in the
clear, as monitored by the USN.  The 07.28 appears to be when
the search plane first saw USN ships, which it then circled to figure
out what was present before coding and sending a report.

> There
> is evidence in the book that Yamaguchi, commanding the Second
> Carrier Division, got the information a lot earlier, presumably
> by listening into the frequency himself.

Not that much sooner it seems.

> This also brings up a third issue.  It's quite possible that all of
> this was inevitable, given Akagi's thoroughly inadequate communication
> and command facilities.

Shattered Sword go for the command facilities as they did not
permit private conversations.  The enlisted men on the bridge
could overhear things.  Made it hard to tell the Admiral he was
wrong.

> Couldn't Nagumo have done something about that?
> Was he doomed to share a command area about as big as my living and
> dining room combined with ship operations, with bad antennas?  Or
> could he have done something about that?

The direct answer is no.  Short of Nagumo using a battleship
as a flagship, and that has its own set of delays.

>> If he had committed to that strike that would have
>> enabled the IJN to probably sink more than one USN carrier.  After
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Isom tried to come up with a most likely outcome, given that Nagumo had
> not given the order to rearm the torpedo planes.

That is not the key decision, that falls to the decision to whether a
non optimum strike should be launched, given, if Shattered Sword
is to be believed, about two thirds of the torpedo bombers were
still armed with torpedoes.

> What he came up with
> was all three US carriers sunk, Kaga and Soryu sunk, Akagi crippled
> but recoverable, and Hiryu intact.  This seems reasonable to me,
> although hardly inevitable; it's possible, for example, that the US
> would have only lost two carriers.

It comes back to whether the hypothetical IJN first strike finds
Enterprise and Hornet or just Yorktown.

> Where he went wrong is in assuming overly great Japanese offensive
> capability afterwards.  I don't think the Japanese would have taken
> Midway with only one intact fleet carrier.

Shattered Sword concludes the amphibious force lacked the numbers
and support to win the landing, even if the USN had been defeated.

> Nor do I think they could
> have attacked Hawaii successfully.  In particular, they could not
> have blockaded the islands successfully.

The entire IJN submarine force around the islands and in their
communication links would have been an interesting fight given the
events in the Atlantic at the time.  The submarine blockade would
need to be supported by raids I suppose, but the reality was Oahu
was simply too strong to invade.

>> In any case from the IJN point of view it was clear the USN had
>> discovered the plan and that, along with luck, was the reason for
>> the defeat.
>>
> The Japanese plan contained measures to make sure that what historically
> happened didn't.

Yes.

If the IJN submarines had been on station on time they would still
have been too late according to Shattered Sword.

Operation K was for 31 May, Enterprise and Hornet had sailed on
29 May, Yorktown on 30 May.  Thanks to the USN having an idea
of what was going to happen.

> It didn't depend on the US being ignorant and
> unprepared to avoid defeat, although it did have certain expectations
> to capture Midway.

It made assumptions on how quickly the USN could react and
what force level would compel the USN to avoid battle.

The USN knew enough to react before the IJN outer searches
were in place.

> No operation should depend on obscurity to avoid a crushing strategic
> defeat.

Secrecy is required.  Send the Germans the location of the allied landing
beaches in France and see what happens, even if only a few days before
6 June.

(pre Midway strategy)

>> Post Midway?  Yes.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> What was Japan to do?

Make the allies make peace with the axis powers.

> Once you
>> assume there is a way to force a peace conference that is, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Right.  This meant that the Japanese had to be able to show the US
> that continuing the war wasn't going to work.

War with the axis actually.

After all the US had not taken over all of Mexico, or Spain.  WWI
had ended with a peace conference, not total occupation of Germany.
The central powers were left to form their own new governments.
The usual swapping of border territories, colonies and monies had
occurred.

>> The overall strategy was clear enough, take the outer perimeter
>> and then force the USN to fight as soon as possible while the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> There was no such thing as "the" outer perimeter, and any reasonable
> one was going to be quite weak.

Are we talking Yamamoto or the non Yamamoto strategy?

Yamamoto was all for fighting the USN, this required operations
to force the USN to fight.  The non Yamamoto strategy was to
expand to about where the Japanese ended up, build up the key
bases and defeat the allies as they tried to take those bases.

There were few areas in the South Pacific that had the anchorages
or the areas to build airfields.  The idea the US had the engineering
ability it did took a while for even the US to believe.

Yamamoto's strategy had the problem of logistics, if the Japanese
kept winning they had more forces further out to supply.  The
non Yamamoto strategy had the problem of handing the initiative to
the allies.  Who could wait until they had enough force.

The final problem of Yamamoto's strategy was the key USN base
in the Pacific, Oahu, was beyond Japanese ability to take unless it
could be starved out, which would require major IJN actions over
a prolonged period of time, most of which would be successful.

> A major base like Rabaul could not
> necessarily win against a US carrier.

As of 1942 the assumption by the USN at least was the land base
would win.

> This meant that the USN had to be forced to fight on Japanese terms.

Correct.

> This meant continuing Japanese attacks until they reached somewhere
> the US was going to have to fight.

The islands north of Australia and on the US Australia links seem to
have worked quite well.

After all as of 1942 it was still USN doctrine carriers could not take on
land based airpower.  If that was really true then the way to Tokyo was
from Australia, through the islands, to the Philippines

> This meant expanding the perimeter further, and conducting offensive
> operations further and further afield.  Expanding the perimeter simply
> made it weaker, and made it vital to defeat the USN more decisively.

Yet by definition unless the USN refused battle, the expansion was
the result of winning battles.

The upside of this was allied submarines would be less able to attack
Japanese shipping to South East Asia and the allies would probably drain
their submarine strength on defensive operations.

> This meant conducting larger and larger offensives against more and
> more distant objectives until something snapped.  As any student of
> strategy should see, it's not necessarily clear what will snap, and
> on what side.

Correct, it comes down to how big the Japanese win, which gives
them the ability to keep attacking or not.

> Since the Japanese had no clear idea of what they were doing, or how
> to avoid the strategic issues here, I'd say that Japanese strategy
> was thoroughly muddled.

No it was clear enough, the assumption was they would win quite
well, and this was further based on the results to early May 1942.
And they could not be deterred by one battle where they probably
won anyway, 1 baby carrier to 2 US fleet carriers at Coral Sea.

>> The force
>> to fight was Yamamoto's change over the older strategy of
>> defeating attacks on the perimeter.
>
> Which wasn't going to work, and Yamamoto (and Nagano) knew it.

Yamamoto was realistic, but also it was the strategy that gave
the IJN its best chance, keep defeating the US and something
had to give.  Either in Europe or in Asia.  In any case the further
out the allies started the longer it would take them to make it
to Japan and the more time Japan had to "do something"

> If
> the Japanese established a defensive perimeter and waited, the US
> was eventually going to show up in overwhelming force, and break
> through.

Correct.

Now if the Tarawa invasion was the cheapest of the USN central
Pacific invasions how far does that attack progress?  Regardless
of the size of the USN.

If some USN carriers are regularly badly hurt if they operate within
range of Japanese land based aircraft what happens to the central
Pacific drive?  Say the carrier attrition rate as per Okinawa and
Iwo Jima.

> Historically, the Allies managed to get some offensive
> action going around August 1942, and got an unstoppable juggernaut
> going something over a year after that.

Correct.

>>  By the way this is the logical
>> explanation of a collection of ideas that were not always expressed
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Right.  You have explained the ideas more clearly than the Japanese
> did, and they still don't work.

Incorrect.

>> So the Indian Ocean was to ensure Burma would be occupied,
>> and sink British shipping.
>
> Irrelevant.  The Japanese didn't need Burma, and didn't need to
> sink British shipping.  Burma didn't protect anything important,
> and its only real use was for possible attacks on India.

Burma had oil and was the world's biggest rice exporter pre war.
It formed the outer perimeter of the Japanese defences in the area
as well.  Keeping allied bombers away from the main oil fields.

>> Coral Sea was an attempt to secure Port Moresby, part of the
>> outer perimeter.
>
> And not enough of the perimeter.  It would have to be expanded
> from there.

Quite correct, and if Coral Sea had been 1 Japanese light carrier to
2 USN fleet carriers the perimeter could have been expanded.

>> The Aleutians were part of the outer perimeter.
>
> For no particularly good reason.

Both sides knew it was the shortest way between them.

Both sides underestimated the effects of weather on operations
until the results of the actual fighting and trying to build bases
there came in.

>> Midway was trying to force the USN to fight.
>>
> And to extend the perimeter.  Not to mention the idiocy involved in
> trying to force the USN to fight while committing significant forces
> to a subsidiary operation (the Aleutians attack).

Appropriate force to the central Pacific, the USN then cannot
react heavily against an invasion of sacred American soil.  So
less force was needed to accomplish a desired mission.

>> The Midway plan as bad, assuming surprise would be achieved
>> and the USN had to be lured into combat.  This meant on day 1
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> carriers just couldn't make it.  Yamamoto disregarded that minor
> detail.

The problems of major operations with ships coming from many
different directions.  It is impressive the IJN was so confident it
seems to have wanted the US to discover the operation a day
early relative to the IJN carrier moves.

>> By mid 1942 the IJN had decided they really were better man
>> for man than the USN, so 4 carriers at Midway was considered
>> enough, and indeed more may have meant the USN declining the
>> battle, not what the Japanese wanted.
>>
> The USN wasn't going to stay home,

If Nagumo had turned up with 6 carriers are you so sure?  Nimitz
knew how hard it was for Japan to hold and exploit Midway.

> having just started to learn
> that maybe they weren't really better man or man than the IJN.

At that point in time the answer appears to be IJN superior but
the Japanese cold not sustain it.

> Both navies started with attitudes of superiority.

Yes, hence some really big blunders.

>> By the way if the IJN had learned about the Guadalcanal
>> invasion and ambushed the USN carriers on day 1, would the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> The US was right at Guadalcanal.  The Japanese were wrong at Midway.

So if the USN dive bomber strikes had missed at Midway the USN
plan was wrong?

> Further, since the US was better at security and intelligence than
> the Japanese were, there were reasons why this was the case.

Of course, how exactly did the USN know for sure the Japanese
were not reading some of its codes?  And that Midway was a
trap on a larger scale than the fragmentary intercepts revealed?

> However, there are lots of cases in military history where the
> criticism depends on the results.  What would we think of the
> von Manstein plan if the German motorized infantry had made it
> across the Meuse, only to be wiped out in a series of French
> counterattacks, possibly taking some of the tanks with them?

Correct.

>>> How can such an organization that trains so hard, and be so tactically
>>> skilled - make such incredibly stupid strategic blunders?
>>
> By focussing on what they did well, and ignoring inconvenient
> realities.

How about by ultimately being pushed by the system into a war
against too much enemy power.  Look at all the bad tactics
and strategy exposed in the 1939 to 1942 period by all nations.

> The IJN had a history of looking for gimmicks to even up the odds.

Gimmicks?  The ones listed below are quite reasonable improvements
in combat efficiency.

> (See "Kaigun" by Evans and Peattie.)  Some of these contradicted
> each other:  the tactical gimmick of firing torpedos at very
> short range (which worked fine against the Russians in 1904-05)
> conflicted with the technical gimmick of the very-long-range torpedo.

How about the reality fire controls had improved and so forced
longer range torpedo attacks?

> Some of them were potentially useful (additional speed in battleships),
> some probably useless (the extremely long range on their battleship
> guns), and some very useful (Japanese training in night fighting).
>
> Pretty much all of these applied to the tactical battle, and the
> approach was destructive to real strategic thinking.

The Japanese had a strategy that the tactics worked within, the
better torpedoes and night fighting were quite effective, the USN
meeting the IJN at night in early 1942 would be rather bad for
the USN in most encounters.  With the superior naval air force
the Japanese could ensure they were indeed better man for man
day or night.

The arrival of radar curtailed the night fighting advantage, the
willingness of the allies to learn from their experiences ensured
other advantages were reduced.  Inability to replace losses
ensured the quality of Japanese forces declined rapidly once
they took anything more than light losses.

The one major strategy the IJN did obviously miss was commerce
warfare, forcing the USN to escort convoys in the Pacific would
have been a major advantage to the axis.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
David H Thornley - 29 Jul 2008 05:10 GMT
>>>> Why did the IJN split up its carrier group after Pearl Harbor?
>>> For the Coral Sea it was called using the appropriate amount
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> No.  Those carriers, like all warships, had maintenance
> requirements, keeping them all at sea was an effort.

Well, yes.  Of course, all the Japanese had to do was expose them
to superior force, and all the maintenance worries would be over.
Permanently.

> Over and above that was the need for flight decks to complete
> the training of the airgroups.

Which the Japanese had.  How many countries diverted fleet
carriers for training purposes?  The Japanese really only
needed one light carrier for that, and they had several
available.

> Commanders that order the entire fleet to sink an enemy barge
> do not last long.

You know, you never struck me as the straw-man type until recently.

The strategy I am proposing is that the Japanese fleet carriers
go nowhere in smaller formations, but only en masse.  Now, I would
think that a mere division of heavy cruisers would be able to
sink a barge, so what does this have to do with carrier commitment?

> Or as one story from Normandy has it Warspite made it clear
> after a few shots that 15 inch shells are not for trying to kill
> a German on a bicycle.

But all they need is one hit....

Anyway, what does this have to do with anything I was saying?  The
little stuff doesn't need any sort of carrier.  The big stuff can
be attacked sequentially.

>> The big advantage the Japanese had was the large unified carrier
>> force.  Without that, they were generally inferior to the Allied
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> more operational battleships in the Pacific and more cruisers,
> possibly more destroyers as well.

That doesn't particularly matter.  The carriers were the important
part.  After all, the US had built six new battleships by the
end of 1942, and the cruisers were coming out in force, and the
US and Australia had significant land-based air forces.

With carrier superiority, the Japanese could attack pretty much
where they wanted, but without it they were greatly restricted.

 The USN felt it had to
> hold forces in the Atlantic for defence and also operations
> like the projected invasion of France and then Torch.

Not all that much.

>> They had no chance to recreate it once broken, as the
>> US (in particular) would do so first.
>
> I presume the final sentence means the USN was the most
> dangerous enemy for the IJN.

Certainly.

Once the Japanese lost Kido Butai, regardless of how much damage was
inflicted on US carriers, they had lost the initiative and most of
the hope they had for the war.

In 1943, the US would amass enough carrier force to take the
offensive, provided the Japanese had been at least somewhat weakened.
In 1942, both the US and the Japanese lost four fleet carriers, leaving
the situation favorable to the US.

>> Therefore, there were two appropriate levels of carrier commitment:
>> yes and no.  If an operation didn't require carriers, fine.
>
> No.  On the all or nothing criteria the answer is everything
> commits or nothing, in order to minimise friendly losses and
> maximise enemy losses.

You seem to have an odd all-or-nothing criterion.  Mine is that the
Japanese sortie all available fleet carriers or none at all.  That
keeps the carriers as immune to defeat as practical while allowing
operations to proceed.

> So the entire fleet sorties backed up by land based forces.
> Anything else is "appropriate size of force", which is a judgement
> call.

Which is your strategy, not mine.  Feel free to defend it, but arguing
against it is an entire waste of time.

>> If it required fleet
>> carriers in any number, it was because of serious expected opposition.
>
> And at Coral Sea the IJN intelligence expected a single USN
> carrier to be the opposition.

And they were wrong.

They would be wrong every so often, and every so often would
lay themselves open to defeat by detail.  The Japanese got away
with it for the second attack on Wake, but if Pye had been a good
commander they might have had Hiryu and Soryu fighting two US
carriers.

Any time they split off a smaller number of carriers, they were
risking a defeat from a locally superior force.  One such defeat
and the whole force could be vulnerable to defeat, and then the
Japanese strategy could only turn defensive.

>> That meant the carriers themselves were at risk, and therefore all
>> the carriers should be committed.
>
> This is rather circular.

Why?

The carriers are vulnerable in smaller groups, almost invulnerable
in larger.  The more carriers together, the less risk to them.  The
alternative is no fleet carriers, which has even less risk.

[straw man snipped]

>> Otherwise, what happens is that an appropriate amount of force
>> goes out, finds opposition it can deal with, takes losses, the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> limited to a few operations each year giving the enemy plenty
> of time to build up strength and fortify forward bases.

Define "few".  The Japanese carriers were quite active, and there
were plenty of operations that could be launched without them.
They didn't need carriers to advance all the way down the Solomons,
for example.

They needed carriers when they might face strong USN opposition,
and that's exactly what they wanted the carriers for.

>> There's a difference between an offensive and a defensive operation.
>
> No.  It would be a half USN response.

No, you're completely missing the point of the initiative.

If the Japanese have the initiative, they can attack under the
circumstances of their choosing, and the US has to respond however
the US can.

Moreover, the US did not have the same imperative to conserve carriers.
The US could wind up with carrier inferiority in 1942 and still win
the war.  The same was not true of the Japanese.

Therefore, you seem to be arguing that two situations, considerably
dif