Re: French President Sarkozy Says Burqas Are 'Not Welcome' In France

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A very good question.
In Houston there are Muslims who prefer Catholic schools because
head coverings for females are approved and there is a commonality
among revered religious figures such as Jesus, Moses, Mary, Abraham,
Solomon, David, and Gabriel.

David H
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I see little difference between a Nun's habit and Islamic dress. Is
there a historical precedent to link the two, does anyone know?

Religious writer/philosopher and former Catholic Nun, Karen Armstrong (a
fascinating read IMHO) even defended the wearing of religious coverings,
including a nun's habit, for the same reason.  Some women prefer to dress
modestly and be related to, possibly, for their intellect/personality, etc.
Again, it's about personal choice, as she pointed out.

- nilita

Just in case someone thinks its a Muslim thing. This reminds me of
custom/rule from the turn of the 19th/20th that Jewish women would
only appear to strangers wearing a wig. "In mein own hair?" was the
quote one women is recorded as saying, like going naked in the street.

Jewish Modesty Warriors Take Up Burkas
Nobody's forcing them, but they want to cover up
Tamar Fox
by Tamar Fox, February 1, 2008
14 comments
TAGS:

   * In the News

Y-Love, over at Jewlicious, calls attention to a crazy new trend in
the ultra-Orthodox community. A small group of women in Israel, intent
on being as uber-modest as possible, have started voluntarily wearing
burkas and hijabs. Y-Love links to and quotes from Muqata blog, which
has translated part of the Haaretz article about the new fashion move:

Appropriate for Synagogue: and mosque, too.Appropriate for Synagogue:
and mosque, too.

   A group of Ultra-Orthodox chareidi women in Ramat Beit Shemesh
have hyperbolated tznius [laws of modesty] to the extreme and now wear
burkas whenever they go outside their home. Not advocated by any known
rabbi, the burka fad is apparently a radical ultra-Orthodox feminist
"invention", and many are wary of this custom being adopted or
repudiated. The radical Beit Shemesh tznius patrol is even scratching
it's head whether someone managed to out do them, and leave them in
the dust with the liberal left.

   The husband of one such woman took his wife to Beit Din (religious
court) to request from her to remove the burka due to shalom bayit (a
peaceful home). The court ordered a religious divorce even though the
husband didn't even request one -- because the court found her
behaviour to be so bizarre.

Mother in Israel posts some truly unbelievable pictures, and the issue
is being discussed everywhere from the Forward’s Bintel Brief to the
Lilith blog where Friend of Jewcy Rebecca Honig Friedman writes:

   They are adopting the ideal of modesty that to some extent has
been ingrained in them by male religious authority (and no doubt by
female authorities, too), but they are doing so on their own terms.
They are taking the power of dictating women’s dress away from the
male religious authorities in their community, deciding for themselves
what modesty means and, in classic fashion, being persecuted for it.

   These women have the right to wear whatever they want, but we
should also question the values that have led them to such extreme
decisions, and the society that perpetuates those values.

I’ll be the first to admit it: there are days when I would happily put
on a burka so as not to have to spend half an hour blow-drying my hair
and putting on makeup in order to be presentable. And I think the
visceral negative reaction to burkas has more to do with the
mistreatment of women in Afghanistan and other Muslim countries than
with the burka itself (and anyway, all of the pictures I’ve seen so
far are not of women in burkas, they’re of women wearing jilbab). Do I
think the women in Ramat Beit Shemesh are going overboard? Absolutely.
But though I find it all pretty strange, it’s not as offensive as if
they were being told to wear jilbab by their rabbis, which, no doubt,
is just round the bend.

http://www.jewcy.com/faithhacker/jewish_modesty_warriors_take_burkas

I haven't read through all this thread, but I always make time to read your
posts, Colonel.

I was once talking with a Muslim woman about the wearing of the burkha
(actually, I think her attire was referred to as something else).  She was
quite defensive - and rightly so - saying something to the effect that
believe it or not "many of us (Muslim) women are given the choice, and many
of us do not see the allure in dressing in the way of American icons such as
Brittney Spears" (with low-riding jeans, breasts protruding from the tops of
their blouses).  She certainly has a point, and it is really something [for
a man] to be able to relate to [a woman] on an intellectual level using eye
contact rather than staring at her breasts or hips.

- nilita

Just to mention some real world stuff, my wife and I know an Egyptian family
well enough that my wife stays with them, in Cairo, when I am not there.
They are both from highly-placed families and she is a graduate of the
American University, in Cairo, and he is an archeologist, who does tours.
They both speak English; she could be mistaken for an American.  Years ago
she wore jeans and tops like any college student, but somewhere along the
way thought that she should be more in line with Islam and now dresses with
the full robe and headress, which, Egyptian style, does not cover the face.

They want to return to the US, he has visited before, and they have
relatives here.  But now she is worried about the dress, and the propaganda
news that they get.  We know Egyptian families here, and it seems no
problem, and my wife even met a stranger, in a store, and recognizing the
dress asked her, and she said no problem.

This summer, he is coming to visit us, alone, which is not a problem, but
I'm thinking that he is checking the place out, for his wife, and now they
have three children, who, naturally, wear only Mickey Mouse Club clothes.

It will be no problem, but all this talk of "banning burkhas" does no help
in world understanding.  Underneath the clothing they are human beings, and
if treated like human beings will probably be more welcoming.

Well, that's my two cents, and sorry I took up your time.

What color of burkha do you wear, ohaha?

you can dress as you damn well please in the U.S. and it is good that is
so.

Sarkozy Is Right Too...

Burqas Should Not Be Welcome In The United States Either.
----
DSH
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor
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Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France

Jun 22 10:24 AM US/Eastern

PARIS (AP) - President Nicolas Sarkozy lashed out Monday at the practice
of wearing the Muslim burqa, insisting the full-body religious gown is a
sign of the "debasement" of women and that it won't be welcome in France.

Excellent! -- DSH

The French leader expressed support for a recent call by dozens of
legislators to create a parliamentary commission to study a small but
growing trend of wearing the full-body garment in France.

In the first presidential address in 136 years to a joint session of
France's two houses of parliament, Sarkozy laid out his support for a ban
even before the panel has been approved — braving critics who fear the
issue is a marginal one and could stigmatize Muslims in France.

"In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen,
cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to
extended applause in a speech at the Chateau of Versailles southwest of
Paris.

True. -- DSH

"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of  subservience, a sign
of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said.  "It will not be
welcome on the territory of the French Republic."

Excellent!  It is directly counter to the Great Principles of the French
Culture, Liberty, Equality, Fraternity -- as well as those of the American
Culture. -- DSH

In France, the terms "burqa" and "niqab" often are used interchangeably.
The former refers to a full-body covering worn largely in Afghanistan with
only a mesh screen over the eyes, whereas the latter is a full-body veil,
often in black, with slits for the eyes.

Later Monday, Sarkozy was expected to host a state dinner with Sheik Hamad
Bin Jassem Al Thani of Qatar. Many women in the Persian Gulf state wear
Islamic head coverings in public — whether while shopping or driving cars.

So, let them wear it in Qatar but NOT in France OR the United States,
outside the home. -- DSH

France enacted a law in 2004 banning the Islamic headscarf and other
conspicuous religious symbols from public schools, sparking fierce debate
at home and abroad.  France has Western Europe's largest Muslim
population, an estimated 5 million people.

A government spokesman said Friday that it would seek to set up a
parliamentary commission that could propose legislation aimed at barring
Muslim women from wearing the head-to-toe gowns outside the home.

Excellent! -- DSH

The issue is highly divisive even within the government.  France's junior
minister for human rights, Rama Yade, said she was open to a ban if it is
aimed at protecting women forced to wear the burqa.

But Immigration Minister Eric Besson said a ban would only "create
tensions."

A leading French Muslim group warned against studying the burqa.
-------------------------------

Absurd! -- DSH

Burqas and Niqabs also serve as convenient disguises for Islamofascist
Jihadist Terrorists and Homicide Bombers -- so that's another good reason
for prohibiting them.