Re: Lancaster bomber video

Just noticed this little gem.   Can you imagine anyone British behaving with
this level of intelligence during the war.   And then a newspaper actually
compounding the idiocy.  I cringe when I think of British intelligence now.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25735843-12377,00.html

I see the current scandal as the endgame  of a long period of  intellectual
decline.

From my view it was when the Empire Windrush landed at Tilbury in 1948.
Importing third world people into a bankrupt country dependent American
welfare payments was not good thinking.  It's still going on...without the
welfare payments from America.  Brainless behaviour.
Nothing seems to have gone right for the country since that time.   The
country and the people were fine during the war.  They knew who they were
and what they had to do.  A cup of tea was all that was needed to keep
civilised behaviour going.  And it seemed then to find extraordinary
brilliance in every nook and cranny.

There is no civilised behaviour in Britain anymore because the word itself
has no meaning in the minds of the people.
It has now become like Zimbabwe because the people have become like
Zimbabweans.  The bankers themselves think like Zimbabweans.  That's what I
meant.

An influx of un-British

There seem to be very few 'un-British people involved in the current
scandal.

Most of the bankers and MPs involved look very British indeed to me.

By the way,  would you like to define 'un-British for us all.  It's a term
you don't see used much.

Western democratic governments are corrupted by lobby groups who promise
money for favoured legislation.   It's corruption no matter how you spin the
language.  You could even say it is hopelessly corrupt because the system
cannot work without donated money.
The Greek ideal cannot work in large sophisticated communities.  Daily
reports of corruption everywhere in the West testify to this.   The British
for instance are in a state of despair over it.   An influx of un-British
people since 1948 has Zimbabwe'd the country...sorry to use that term but it
gives the idea better than anything else.
I think the world will resort to Fascism just to regain some order out of
the anarchy that's spread from the universities since the 1960s.  The
corruption has been like boiling frogs slowly so they don't notice the
change in temperature.

       'Democratic republic' in modern times means a Communist
totalitarian state.  The DR of Congo isn't Communist AFAIK but that
government is hardly impressive.  

       I suppose the difference between the mob rule that Aristotle and
Plato condemned and modern democracy is that what we have now is
representative democracy, which Plato discussed in his last book, and
also that we have the rule of law, checks and balances.  Also a civic
culture to support that, as de Tocqueville observed, and this is where
the 3rd world 'democracies' usually fall short.  

       That wasn't my point.  I was calling the *central* government
hopelessly corrupt, which means the people would be even less inclined
than usual to accept it.  

       Indeed their culture works very well for them, and we shouldn't try
to change that.  History amply teaches the folly of that in this
particular case!

       Not quite so simple.  The Taliban intimidate the people into
supporting them.  They have to have security so that they have a real
choice in the matter.  

       Yup.  I wonder how the folks in Caen feel about that nowdays.  I
know a French fellow who has early memories of the liberation of France
who hates the memory of war, and doesn't seem to consider that we did it
to rid them of the Nazis.  

       I don't know whether that's the proper comparison here.  Look at
what Israel did to Lebanon over Hezbollah and Gaza over Hamas.  Aside
from beating the crap out of their enemy as much as possible, they wanted
to get the civilians caught in the middle and forced to accept H and H by
force of arms to get rid of them somehow.  Looks as though some of that
is happening.

Dennis

(snipped)

Buying favours is as old as history.   It's  * the *  natural culture of all
cultures.   What is false and artificial is democracy. ..another word for
mob rule of the ignorant.  Even the Greeks thought it only applicable to
small cities where everybody knew each other.     Socrates was condemned to
death democratically by his neighbours for corrupting the youth of his
neighbours for making them think...that's mob rule.  Be suspicious of any
country calling themselves a democratic republic...mob rule of the ignorant
is what you actually get and the majority actually think it works for them.

Calling tribal custom corruption is not really understanding culture at all.
The West wants to impose a false failed system on to a people who find
*their* cultural  system * works *  for them.

The only job we have in Afghanistan is to kill the terrorists who use it as
a base camp...and all who help them.   If it's just money, we can buy their
produce and guarantee a price... that's cheaper than warfare.  If they
refuse then they are collaborating and deserve to be bombed and eliminated.
The choice is theirs to make and can be pointed out to them.

Remember what we did to Caan, and the death of French residents just to get
at Germans stationed there.

       'Dehousing'?  I don't understand.  

       As you might recall, the Russians destroyed villages at will to
keep them from hiding gunmen, and that didn't turn out to be effective.  

       I'd like to get a discussion going on the whole subject of
reprisals and how effective they really are.  

       I agree; see above.  

       That, and are Afghan security forces themselves going to despoil
the peasants?  

       I've heard that the Afghan government is so corrupt that it has
little credibility.  

       I've also heard that throughout history any central government in
Afghanistan has largely been disregarded; the local tribal system forms
the basis of this society.  Same thing with Somalia.

Dennis

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am glad the group is picking up on this subject.
I have two remarks:

(1) IIRC the B-24 was used in the Mediterranean and the Pacific but
    not over the Third Reich.
(2) Afghan peasants don't give a damn about religion and politics.
   They want work, food, clothing and shelter whether it comes from
   foreigners (the Taliban, the NATO troops) or from Kabul.

   Our USMC Marines are IMHO making a mistake to enter
   settlements and then turn them over to Afghan police personnel.
   I guess the Afghan army is not big enough yet to permanently
   occupy Helmand province.

Cheers, David H
~~~~~

On Jul 3, 7:51 am, David H Singanas <davidholi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

(snipped)

My impression is that night bombing started more as a survival
mechanism.  Early-war British bombers couldn't get thru to German
targets without heavy losses due to the daytime defenses.  It
continued later at least partly because the more heavily-armed (and
built?)  B-17's & B-24's were somewhat better suited to surviving
German daytime defenses. But this is an occasionally hotly-debated
topic that I'm probably risking flames by oversimplifying.... 8-).

Jim H. "Entropy never sleeps.  Do y'all?"

# Both the British and American bombers suffered huge losses during daytime
raids.

The Americans had their worst time on the Sweinfurt run.   So many losses
that they gave up daylight bombing until the P-51 was built to go with them
and protect them from the German fighters.
But the overall effect of round the clock bombing was not to worry about
accuracy so much as to make the Germans allocate resources to combating the
raids...the 'dehousing' effect was effective.
Pity they don't do this Afghanistan and Pakistan and finish it quickly.
Being nice to goatherders doesn't sound like good policy when they hide the
gunmen.

.........................

Did the Lanc have a formal copilot?  I have a dim memory that it
didn't.

My impression is that night bombing started more as a survival
mechanism.  Early-war British bombers couldn't get thru to German
targets without heavy losses due to the daytime defenses.  It
continued later at least partly because the more heavily-armed (and
built?)  B-17's & B-24's were somewhat better suited to surviving
German daytime defenses. But this is an occasionally hotly-debated
topic that I'm probably risking flames by oversimplifying.... 8-).

Jim H. "Entropy never sleeps.  Do y'all?"

On Jul 2, 11:07 am, Surreyman <alandavid.spen...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So you finally did it !   You and your co-pilot.
I guess the Brits did the night bombing because  they
were radar equipped. I gather the magnetron unit was shock proof
and could survive
a flak hit as well as a crash on the ground.  In the video episode
there
was great concern that the Jerries would obtain one and copy the
technology.  As for the 2000 watts of power, I suppose that applies
to the valve (vacuum tube) supporting the magnetron.

Blitz survivors like you are becoming scarce.

Cheers, David H
~~~~~

Maybe better - I can tell you how it is to pilot a Lanc!
Must have been around 1957 from RAF Cottesmore I think.
Wondeful experience.

Surreyman

In a local thrift store I found a VHS cassette of an episode
from a British TV series.  The episode is #6 of "Pathfinders".
The title is "Operation Gomorrah"  or "Gomora".

This 1984 video is about the outfitting of the Lancaster with
H2F radar by Bomber Command.  The dramatic tension comes
from a Scot "boffin" who doesn't mind increasing magnetron
power to 2000 watts as long as the improved ground images
will enable the Brits to accurately bomb military targets and
not civilian housing estates. Almost all the characters

Please provide some details about this old telly series.

David H
~~~~~~~~~~~~